Discussion Estimating Characters PL

sobreno · Feb 16, 2018

Okrigar said:
Funny that people now accept that Eli on her prime was a true powerhouse. Same thought some months ago would of gotten you flamed.

Just her activating her power against two Indura TC was enough to push them back, that alone should of been good enough of a sign.

She might be a mary sue so far character wise, but she can dish out a beating if she needs to.

Mary Sue? Please, not even close.

Okrigar · Feb 16, 2018

sobreno said:
Mary Sue? Please, not even close.

Most likely Mary Sue was a bad choice of words, not that knowledgable of expressions here to be honest xD.

It was more in the sense that she was always in peril, always in danger, and had little or no courage to counter-attack. But now with all her memories, she should be able to "man-up" and start using her power for offensive means.

sobreno · Feb 16, 2018

Okrigar said:
Most likely Mary Sue was a bad choice of words, not that knowledgable of expressions here to be honest xD.

It was more in the sense that she was always in peril, always in danger, and had little or no courage to counter-attack. But now with all her memories, she should be able to "man-up" and start using her power for offensive means.

With her personality? I seriously doubt it.

MrSchmitty7 · Feb 16, 2018

Who could forget the time that Gowther managed to subdue Galand when Meliodas and the others failed. He must’ve had a power level greater than 10,000 during part one since he obviously did better than demon Meliodas who couldn’t even scratch Galand. Right guys?

sobreno · Feb 16, 2018

MrSchmitty7 said:
Who could forget the time that Gowther managed to subdue Galand when Meliodas and the others failed. He must’ve had a power level greater than 10,000 during part one since he obviously did better than demon Meliodas who couldn’t even scratch Galand. Right guys?

They don't understand that specific power work as hax, which means it disregard the power level ( which means his natural durability since it bypasses it ) of the opponent, whether it is far higher or smaller than yours, it doesn't matter.
What matters is whether you have resistance or immunity to that power ( hax ) or not.

MrSchmitty7 · Feb 16, 2018

sobreno said:
They don't understand that specific power work as hax, which means it disregard the power level ( which means his natural durability since it bypasses it ) of the opponent, whether it is far higher or smaller than yours, it doesn't matter.
What matters is whether you have resistance or immunity to that power ( hax ) or not.

Pretty much. Since the introduction of Gowther it’s been explained that some powers work regardless of durability.

Purge isn’t dependent on durability of the human, but rather the strength of the demon in possession
Invasion is only defendable by the spirit stat
Let there be light goes straight past the defenses and directly targets the darkness
Gloom Cocoon is one of the strongest techniques in Taizai and it’s possessed by lowly Melascula

And plus there’s probably more I’m forgetting about

OtakuFreak · Feb 16, 2018

sobreno said:
With her personality? I seriously doubt it.

I mean. There is a thing called character development and she has already expressed it by rejecting Meliodas plan and going her own way - that was even more shown by her slapping him, something Meliodas did not expect from her.

I'm sure she'll develop even more as a character. I don't think she'll become "evil" or make a 180 in her personality, but she might start being less of a pacifist. Being cursed for 3000 years and made to suffer (with Meliodas) most likely warrants some change to her character.

Before you give me that "lol no she won't develop" or whatever reason. None of us expected Elizabeth to disobey Meliodas and to reject his plan before it happened - so anything's plausible.

sobreno · Feb 16, 2018

OtakuFreak said:
I mean. There is a thing called character development and she has already expressed it by rejecting Meliodas plan and going her own way - that was even more shown by her slapping him, something Meliodas did not expect from her.

I'm sure she'll develop even more as a character. I don't think she'll become "evil" or make a 180 in her personality, but she might start being less of a pacifist. Being cursed for 3000 years and made to suffer (with Meliodas) most likely warrants some change to her character.

Before you give me that "lol no she won't develop" or whatever reason. None of us expected Elizabeth to disobey Meliodas and to reject his plan before it happened - so anything's plausible.

I expected Elizabeth to do that since now I know that Meliodas's plan is a " no return " kind of plan, if he becomes DK, there is no turning back.
Due to her " love " for him, it was expected that she was against it, the opposite would be weird and out of character.
All in all, she remains consistent with her overall personality and character, unlike Meliodas who really do a 180 in personality.

kkck · Feb 16, 2018

MrSchmitty7 said:
Pretty much. Since the introduction of Gowther it’s been explained that some powers work regardless of durability.

Purge isn’t dependent on durability of the human, but rather the strength of the demon in possession
Invasion is only defendable by the spirit stat
Let there be light goes straight past the defenses and directly targets the darkness
Gloom Cocoon is one of the strongest techniques in Taizai and it’s possessed by lowly Melascula

And plus there’s probably more I’m forgetting about

From what I can tell purge absolutely depends on the user's strength.Hendricksen is able to use purge to kill grey demons but in turn zaratras, who seems to be stronger than hendricksen, couldn't scratch fraudrin with it. And when zaratras poured every ounce of his strength into the purge, presumably utilizing every bit of magic he had to the point the effort killed him even though he was already dead, all he managed to do was push fraudrin out. But fraudrin himself was not even scratched.

I am not sure elizabeth's "Let there be light" went straight past the defenses. If it did then the indura wouldn't have been able to resist it to begin with. In turn the implication was that their darkness was pushing back...

There absolute are magics whose effects remain the same regardless of PL but I would argue purge is not one of them. Even purification by goddesses, which while supereffective, does depend on the wielder's and target's power....

MrSchmitty7 · Feb 16, 2018

kkck said:
From what I can tell purge absolutely depends on the user's strength.Hendricksen is able to use purge to kill grey demons but in turn zaratras, who seems to be stronger than hendricksen, couldn't scratch fraudrin with it. And when zaratras poured every ounce of his strength into the purge, presumably utilizing every bit of magic he had to the point the effort killed him even though he was already dead, all he managed to do was push fraudrin out. But fraudrin himself was not even scratched.

I am not sure elizabeth's "Let there be light" went straight past the defenses. If it did then the indura wouldn't have been able to resist it to begin with. In turn the implication was that their darkness was pushing back...

There absolute are magics whose effects remain the same regardless of PL but I would argue purge is not one of them. Even purification by goddesses, which while supereffective, does depend on the wielder's and target's power....

It did go past their defenses. Deri and Monspeet took no physical damage in spite of the fact that they got pierced by a beam of light. The attack just went through their physical bodies and straight for the darkness.

Purge also goes past the defenses. Dreyfus’s body which isn’t even corrupted by some forms of magic has no special defense against purge because it ignores the human body and just targets the demon. That’s why purge can’t damage humans.

But you are right in saying that the strength of purge depends on the user. I’m just stating that when it’s used the human host takes no damage and does not have to have their defense be bypassed in order to get to the demon

kkck · Feb 16, 2018

MrSchmitty7 said:
It did go past their defenses. Deri and Monspeet took no physical damage in spite of the fact that they got pierced by a beam of light. The attack just went through their physical bodies and straight for the darkness.

Purge also goes past the defenses. Dreyfus’s body which isn’t even corrupted by some forms of magic has no special defense against purge because it ignores the human body and just targets the demon. That’s why purge can’t damage humans.

But you are right in saying that the strength of purge depends on the user. I’m just stating that when it’s used the human host takes no damage and does not have to have their defense be bypassed in order to get to the demon

http://fanfox.net/manga/nanatsu_no_taizai/v26/c208/9.html
http://fanfox.net/manga/nanatsu_no_taizai/v26/c208/10.html
We see derieri and moonspiet actually physically holding back the light thingy and meliodas points out the darkness is resisting. That is literally their defenses holding strong as far as I can tell.

I thought purge hadn't work on humans because purge targets darkness or evil which humans didn't innately have. I am not sure if an ordinarily evil human would be affected by this though. Even ark, which has been used to destroy darkness, relies on the power behind it and it's effects depends on the target. It's why nerobasta made short work of grey demons but in turn just made derieri angrier. Purification as we have seen it does not significantly overcome PL differences. The most we can reasonably say IMO would be that if the darkness and light in question are equal then the light would win in a purification scenario though I am sure even that won't hold once nakaba decides it is convenient to the plot for demons to resist light...

MrSchmitty7 · Feb 16, 2018

kkck said:
http://fanfox.net/manga/nanatsu_no_taizai/v26/c208/9.html
http://fanfox.net/manga/nanatsu_no_taizai/v26/c208/10.html
We see derieri and moonspiet actually physically holding back the light thingy and meliodas points out the darkness is resisting. That is literally their defenses holding strong as far as I can tell.

I thought purge hadn't work on humans because purge targets darkness or evil which humans didn't innately have. I am not sure if an ordinarily evil human would be affected by this though. Even ark, which has been used to destroy darkness, relies on the power behind it and it's effects depends on the target. It's why nerobasta made short work of grey demons but in turn just made derieri angrier. Purification as we have seen it does not significantly overcome PL differences. The most we can reasonably say IMO would be that if the darkness and light in question are equal then the light would win in a purification scenario though I am sure even that won't hold once nakaba decides it is convenient to the plot for demons to resist light...

Well of course they’re allowed to grab the beam of light, it’s still a physical entity. My point is that even though they can grab it the beam still targeted their darkness regardless of what they did. Them holding it or not made no difference because as Mel said it was dependent upon their darkness to resist it. Thats why even when the beam wasn’t piercing them, they still continued to regress. It really didn’t matter what they did. That’s why their physicals bodies took no damage.

Purge in spite of the fact that it can damage demons does not damage humans even though it comes in contact with them.

Ark requires that your magic is strong enough to break through your opponents physical body. It’s entirely dependent on the users magical prowess even with its natural ability to decompose darkness

Let there be light just requires that the light is able to overcome the darkness. You don’t have to break through any bodies to get to it

kkck · Feb 16, 2018

MrSchmitty7 said:
Well of course they’re allowed to grab the beam of light, it’s still a physical entity. My point is that even though they can grab it the beam still targeted their darkness regardless of what they did. Them holding it or not made no difference because as Mel said it was dependent upon their darkness to resist it. Thats why even when the beam wasn’t piercing them, they still continued to regress. It really didn’t matter what they did. That’s why their physicals bodies took no damage.

Purge in spite of the fact that it can damage demons does not damage humans even though it comes in contact with them.

But those are clearly not techniques which we can make the point work regardless of PL. If they were then human elizabeth with 1.9k power could be literally as effective as goddess elizabeth in purifying induras. And obviously that isn't the case. And it isn't the case for purge either. Gowther's magic works regardless of PL, we have seen that at work a number of times. There is no chance of, say, diane stopping one of gowther's invasion techniques by grabbing it for instance. Maybe a physical object getting in the way would work but we still have seen invasion being equally effective on all known targets regardless of their pl. Ander's magic could be like that as well considering possessed hendricksen could not resist it even though he more than doubled arden's power. And there probably are a few others. But purge or purifying techniques we have seen are still very much constrained by pls..

MrSchmitty7 · Feb 16, 2018

kkck said:
But those are clearly not techniques which we can make the point work regardless of PL. If they were then human elizabeth with 1.9k power could be literally as effective as goddess elizabeth in purifying induras. And obviously that isn't the case. And it isn't the case for purge either. Gowther's magic works regardless of PL, we have seen that at work a number of times. There is no chance of, say, diane stopping one of gowther's invasion techniques by grabbing it for instance. Maybe a physical object getting in the way would work but we still have seen invasion being equally effective on all known targets regardless of their pl. Ander's magic could be like that as well considering possessed hendricksen could not resist it even though he more than doubled arden's power. And there probably are a few others. But purge or purifying techniques we have seen are still very much constrained by pls..

Well we know she can’t because she’s admitted her human form isn’t her goddes form. Look at Gowther for instance. His magic abecame more effective after he got his memories back and that had nothing to do with him training or getting a power level boost; his emotions just enhanced his overall power.

TarXan · Feb 26, 2018

Cusack - 55k to 60k
Chandler - 55k to 60k base - 70k True Form
Zeldris - 75 to 80k 2nd Mark

Ludociel - 60k to 65k
Sariel - 55k to 59k
Tarmiel - 55k to 59k

Bøjan · Feb 26, 2018

TarXan said:
Cusack - 55k to 60k
Chandler - 55k to 60k base - 70k True Form
Zeldris - 75 to 80k 2nd Mark

Ludociel - 60k to 65k
Sariel - 55k to 59k
Tarmiel - 55k to 59k

Those should be quite accurate yeah, also Cusack probably has more or less the same PL as Chandler when he is in his True Form.

OtakuFreak · Feb 26, 2018

TarXan said:
Cusack - 55k to 60k
Chandler - 55k to 60k base - 70k True Form
Zeldris - 75 to 80k 2nd Mark

Ludociel - 60k to 65k
Sariel - 55k to 59k
Tarmiel - 55k to 59k

Ludoshel in my opinion should be higher. 70k/equivalent to the masters (or maybe even Zeldris but that's a maybe not tbh).

sobreno · Feb 26, 2018

OtakuFreak said:
Ludoshel in my opinion should be higher. 70k/equivalent to the masters (or maybe even Zeldris but that's a maybe not tbh).

Zeldoris and Estarossa are in the 60K range, so nope.

Bøjan · Feb 26, 2018

OtakuFreak said:
Ludoshel in my opinion should be higher. 70k/equivalent to the masters (or maybe even Zeldris but that's a maybe not tbh).

It makes sense but only by a bit (he's stronger than the other archangels by a little bit that's why), just as you say 70k/75k max.

Tragicdeath · Feb 26, 2018

sobreno said:
Zeldoris and Estarossa are in the 60K range, so nope.

61k for Zel and 60k for Estarossa but these would change exponentially once they unleash their true power.

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