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Discussion Estimating Characters PL

MrSchmitty7

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But the entire point of a comedy scene is to make the audience laugh lol

No one laughed at how Meliodas was knocked to the ground by Elizabeth. It was amusing, but the intention wasn't to make people laugh lol

And why would Nakaba introduce a comedy effect in one of the most defining character moments for Meliodas and Elizabeth? Talk about being stupid, especially when it didn't work or make anybody laugh.
But it wasn't defining though. Mel basically ignored her and she just got a bit upset. It's really no different than her talking to Mel while he's asleep. Plus just because people don't find it funny doesn't mean that it doesn't have comedic effect. No one used to laugh at Hawk whenever he tied Meliodas up, in fact even some people found him to be annoying. Just because it doesn't illicit laughs doesn't mean it's a serious feat, otherwise Hawk has the strength to tie up Mel.

Meliodas had every intention and potential to go straight after Elizabeth once she made her great escape, but he didn't, all he did was scream at the window and then let her be. So it's pretty clear once she put up a resistance, he just had the attitude of ''well idc what u do im still becoming DK''.

She has wings to fly, pretty sure she could escape Meliodas.
Exactly, he didn't go after her because the entire encounter wasn't serious. And Elizabeth cannot outspeed Assault Mel. In order for something to be "defining as a relationship" there has to be a relationship in the first place. Mel flat out said he doesn't care for her like that, he's only helping her to keep his promise. If anything Elizabeth and Mel are extremely toxic right now. There's an entire war started because "Mel won't listen" and Elizabeth "Only cares about her own feelings"

Ludoshel's ark is stronger than who's? Sariel and Tarmiel's? If so it is because in their strongest forms, his ark was much more effective against the ten commandments if you compare it to the other 2AA.

Plus his wings are larger than theirs, so he's definitely stronger than them.
I'm talking about human forms. His ark could or couldn't be stronger, we simply don't know because he's only used it once.

He's surprised she did it because it isn't in her personality to do what she did lol

Would you expect your girlfriend to hit you after 3000 years of obedience, several comments on loving you and always being by your side if you were in his position. He said ''hit me if you want'' because he never expected her to actually go through with it, and that's why he was shock, not because of some comedy effect lol.

Elizabeth can fly, so the ''well Nakaba needed to help her escape'' means nothing. She escaped on her own accord and ability, not because the author helped her.
3,000 years of obedience? One of the first things she did in the past was ignore Mel's advice and tried to stop the Inudra by herself. Plus several incarnations of Elizabeth have hit him in the past. So he should know that she doesn't mess around. She has all her memories, which means knight and barbarian Liz are in there.

Plus if ''durability is not the problem'' then why not have all the sins + elizabeth vs Meliodas then? What was the point of encasing Meliodas in a cube if he was going easy as you say?
It's not so much durability as it is for someone to do damage. Escanor can do damage to Mel, the other cannot.
Reality: Nothing in the manga supports this interpretation, it's based completely off your own opinion, which is fine but when you're trying to discredit something that objectively happens in the manga, it doesn't do much. If you had an opinion and backed it up with manga events, I'd be more inclined to listen to you, but at the end of the day, nothing in the manga suggests that purification > offensive ark is truly the case.
Nothing in the manga supports this interpretation, it's based completely off your own opinion, which is fine but when you're trying to discredit something that objectively happens in the manga, it doesn't do much. If you had an opinion and backed it up with manga events, I'd be more inclined to listen to you, but at the end of the day, nothing in the manga suggests that purification > offensive ark is truly the case.
Magic that attacks the spirit or other elements like that do have easier times doing that. Elizabeth was able to repress Mel's regression for as long as she held onto him with her magic. Yet when used offensively she couldn't even put more than a scratch into him.

Me: Elizabeth slapping Meliodas shows her ark is strong and that she is able to hurt him because she has the ability to
You: lol comedy effect lol
Reality: This is once again an opinion, and it doesn't refute what Elizabeth was able to achieve. If you 100% can prove to me that the moment was intended for comedy effect, please do it.Also, while we're at it, let's discount this feat even though the context is exactly the same as Zeldris vs Ludoshel, but we accept that feat because the character is an AA:
Because the slap makes no sense. Again, Zel and Estarossa have tanked attacks that surpass Zel's DK power with virtually no damage. Now we have Mel who is leagues above them getting decked by a basic slap. By that logic the slap must be close to DK magic potential if I'm to believe that the slap feat wasn't for comedic effect. So tell me, does Elizabeth have DK magic potential even after pre Mel said that neither he nor her had this potential with their magic?
Reality: Elizabeth in a weak human body being crushed the wind out of her was still able to conjure a basic ark strong enough to physically move and hurt him.
Reality: Elizabeth in a weak human body being crushed the wind out of her was still able to conjure a basic ark strong enough to physically move and hurt him.
Let's be real, Guila probably could've knocked Estarossa down if she saw him like that. It's not something that takes Elizabeth tier to do when Estarossa doesn't have full control of his sanity and his body is swelling like twiggo.

Me: Elizabeth was able to hurt Derriere in her weakest state, proving that her ark is truly powerful
You: Well it wasn't really a fight, since you know, PL's rise in a fight
Reality: If you consider Estarossa vs Elizabeth a fight then I don't see how this isn't a ''fight'', they both ended up exchanging blows with each other, and Derriere was in a battle mood lol
I've already counted the Derieri feat as a good feat though. I even said it was one of her good ones

Well obviously without confirmation of Elizabeth's PL, everyone is going to have a different opinion of her, it's only natural. But to me it often feels like the Anti-Elizabeth defend squad grasps the straws a lot more often than the Pro-Elizabeth squad. I mean, you're entire defense for the Meliodas slap moment is ''lol comedy bro''. Half the time Sobreno gives me ''lol she's a female and a princess she can't fight stfu'' so yeah forgive me if I say you grasp at straws, because from my point of view it does when the Anti-Elizabeth squad engages my views.
I can understand that there would be differences because no one knows her exact power level, but the gaps are just way too high.
For Goddess Elizabeth people have said the following: Shes 100K base, Shes AM level in her prime (42K+ difference) Shes Mael level (Even higher)
For human Elizabeth we have around 50K, Weaker than Merlin, trash.
If the differences in numbers were maybe 10-20K off I could forgive it, but so far we're dealing with numbers that exceed 40K on a good day

At the end of the day no one (including sobreno) wants to discredit Elizabeth. In fact we'd like to see her have more feats so that we can put this to rest, we just don't want to use feats that are too questionable
 
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Yet the problem is that she never gets a legit fight, a one vs one to see her so-called battle skills.

She is good at being a damsel in distress, protected by someone or something at the end.
 

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My problem with Eli is that her biggest feats are against Demons as that's what her power is suited against. Pit her against the likes of Gloxinia or Diane and thing's get really unfavorable for her. It's why everytime the topic of Elizabeth's power comes up, I hesitate to place her at really high ranks tiers due to that nature. Hell even against demons, I can't say she'd win against a base Estarossa because it's still questionable whether she can purge a normal demon devoid of any excess darkness like an Indura is. Without "let there be light' what can she really do against them? Only ark's we've seen her use was against a passive Meli and an in agony Estarossa.

Generally if we're talking about fighting demons i'd place her at the low commandment level(Around Fraudrin and Galan level). MAYBE middle at her max power, but she's shown nothing to display she can fight at the level and gruesomeness of Derriere. Especially since one hit from Derriere knocked her out for minutes.

If we're putting her against Non demonic foes such as Gloxinia, Diane, King, Dolor,etc? She has shown nothing that can keep them at bay. Ark would have no particular advantage, she doesnt have the speed to keep up with them, nor can she purge them. Against them she'd be a tier below commandment.
 

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My problem with Eli is that her biggest feats are against Demons as that's what her power is suited against. Pit her against the likes of Gloxinia or Diane and thing's get really unfavorable for her. It's why everytime the topic of Elizabeth's power comes up, I hesitate to place her at really high ranks tiers due to that nature. Hell even against demons, I can't say she'd win against a base Estarossa because it's still questionable whether she can purge a normal demon devoid of any excess darkness like an Indura is. Without "let there be light' what can she really do against them? Only ark's we've seen her use was against a passive Meli and an in agony Estarossa.

Generally if we're talking about fighting demons i'd place her at the low commandment level(Around Fraudrin and Galan level). MAYBE middle at her max power, but she's shown nothing to display she can fight at the level and gruesomeness of Derriere. Especially since one hit from Derriere knocked her out for minutes.

If we're putting her against Non demonic foes such as Gloxinia, Diane, King, Dolor,etc? She has shown nothing that can keep them at bay. Ark would have no particular advantage, she doesnt have the speed to keep up with them, nor can she purge them. Against them she'd be a tier below commandment.
Galand is too fast for her shitty reflex to even have a chance to react it in time.

Like we all know, she isn't a fighter at all.
 

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Galand is too fast for her shitty reflex to even have a chance to react it in time.

Like we all know, she isn't a fighter at all.
Well true. I meant her ark would probably damage him if it hit, but alas he's too fast. I do think a couple of the low tier commandments she might be able to put down if she plays smart like Fraudrin or Grayroad. Then again Fraudrin was able to tank ark before. Damn it's crazy to say she cant take out even the weakest commandments though. If we go any lower that would put her at around holy knight level in terms of fighting lmao that's a bit harsh
 

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Well true. I meant her ark would probably damage him if it hit, but alas he's too fast. I do think a couple of the low tier commandments she might be able to put down if she plays smart like Fraudrin or Grayroad. Then again Fraudrin was able to tank ark before. Damn it's crazy to say she cant take out even the weakest commandments though. If we go any lower that would put her at around holy knight level in terms of fighting lmao that's a bit harsh
That is what happens when a character never gets a proper fight, the good old " one vs one ".
 

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And Elizabeth cannot outspeed Assault Mel.
Where was this conclusion made from?

I don't remember seeing a Elizabeth vs AM flying race.

Plus, if she slapped him, THEN immediately flied away, she'd get a head start and he wouldn't be able to catch up with her due to being on the floor stunned. She was able to fly just as fast as second demon mark + Gloxinia without much effort, and unless a human body makes her slower when flying (which it shouldn't, I imagine the wings do it all), then she should be fine to get away from Meliodas.

That's why I'm confused as fuck, he makes her bring out her wings to save Estarossa but not to fly the fuck away from Meliodas and Chandler who wanted to lock her in a basement and basically torture her? 0 logic Nakaba

But still, theoretically, she could've slapped him, leave him on the floor stunned, and then immediately fly away at high speeds, and since Meliodas didn't go after her when she was running at human speed, he wouldn't bother chasing her if she was flying.

So yeah, she has the potential to escape or outspeed AM without the need of comedic effect.

3,000 years of obedience? One of the first things she did in the past was ignore Mel's advice and tried to stop the Inudra by herself. Plus several incarnations of Elizabeth have hit him in the past. So he should know that she doesn't mess around. She has all her memories, which means knight and barbarian Liz are in there.
But where all those moments on the level of Elizabeth's disobedience right now?
Meliodas never said that she couldn't stop the Indura, he just screamed her name when she flew off in their direction.
Those several incarnations have hit Meliodas for as you said ''comedic effect''. Liz hitting him because he was grabbing her breasts is not the same as Elizabeth hitting Meliodas when they were having a serious discussion about what to do about the curses, it's like comparing night to day.

If Nakaba was really going for comedic effect, then he would've had Elizabeth do a normal slap on him, then latter have her escape through other methods (she could've literally just run away when he wasn't looking lol) but instead of that he opted for the ark blast approach. Why? There's no reason to make her use her magic if you're opting for comedic effect, or to plot her back to the sins, he could've done left out the magic and let her escape in other ways, but Nakaba decided to make her use her magic, and if you ask me, it's to both emphasise her resolve about saving Meliodas and doing her own thing, and to highlight her ark.

Magic that attacks the spirit or other elements like that do have easier times doing that. Elizabeth was able to repress Mel's regression for as long as she held onto him with her magic. Yet when used offensively she couldn't even put more than a scratch into him.
Where does it say that purification attacks the spirit or any of that information you just gave me?
I wouldn't call it a ''scratch'' - that would be what Ludoshel gave to Zeldris. It was more like a heavy bruise what Elizabeth gave Meliodas.

Plus, if purification > offensive is 100% fact then why didn't any of the AA think smartly and use purification themselves?

''They didn't want to'' - sure, but in the process of their stupid arrogance they would die

''They can't'' - more reason that Elizabeth ark > AA

Because the slap makes no sense. Again, Zel and Estarossa have tanked attacks that surpass Zel's DK power with virtually no damage. Now we have Mel who is leagues above them getting decked by a basic slap. By that logic the slap must be close to DK magic potential if I'm to believe that the slap feat wasn't for comedic effect. So tell me, does Elizabeth have DK magic potential even after pre Mel said that neither he nor her had this potential with their magic?
Zel's DK power could literally be a 2K PL, no one knows the specific of how it works. So assuming that's it's a God's power alone isn't eno

Let's be real, Guila probably could've knocked Estarossa down if she saw him like that. It's not something that takes Elizabeth tier to do when Estarossa doesn't have full control of his sanity and his body is swelling like twiggo.
Mhm, not Guila tier.

I'd say anybody from Elaine and above could've done what Elizabeth did.

I've already counted the Derieri feat as a good feat though. I even said it was one of her good ones
:cheez Finally we agree on something :cheez

I can understand that there would be differences because no one knows her exact power level, but the gaps are just way too high.
For Goddess Elizabeth people have said the following: Shes 100K base, Shes AM level in her prime (42K+ difference) Shes Mael level (Even higher)
For human Elizabeth we have around 50K, Weaker than Merlin, trash.
If the differences in numbers were maybe 10-20K off I could forgive it, but so far we're dealing with numbers that exceed 40K on a good day

At the end of the day no one (including sobreno) wants to discredit Elizabeth. In fact we'd like to see her have more feats so that we can put this to rest, we just don't want to use feats that are too questionable
That's down to Nakaba. He's the only one who knows why he hasn't confirmed Elizabeth's PL or giving her a fight yet.


Yet the problem is that she never gets a legit fight, a one vs one to see her so-called battle skills.

She is good at being a damsel in distress, protected by someone or something at the end.
Even a PL confirmation would be enough to please a lot of the community

My problem with Eli is that her biggest feats are against Demons as that's what her power is suited against. Pit her against the likes of Gloxinia or Diane and thing's get really unfavorable for her. It's why everytime the topic of Elizabeth's power comes up, I hesitate to place her at really high ranks tiers due to that nature. Hell even against demons, I can't say she'd win against a base Estarossa because it's still questionable whether she can purge a normal demon devoid of any excess darkness like an Indura is. Without "let there be light' what can she really do against them? Only ark's we've seen her use was against a passive Meli and an in agony Estarossa.
I'm sorry, but this is absolute nonsense :nah

Where did you get the idea that ark isn't effective or even usable against opponents that aren't demons? Because by this logic, not only is Elizabeth less effective against the Fairies, Giants, Humans and Goddesses when it comes to her ark usage, but so is everybody else in her clan. So that means the Supreme Goddess isn't truly at the level of the Demon King because her effectiveness is limited to demons only, whilst the DK is effective against everybody. This would also mean the Four Archangels is less effective and would potentially struggle against opponents outside of the Demon Clan, and this would also mean Fodder Goddesses are irrelevant outside hunting down Fodder Demons.

But wait, I can already hear it: ''But the AA are 90k, and have Graces'' - Still doesn't matter. Elizabeth's ark in every way has highlighted superiority over the AA's. She can heal better. She can purify better, whilst they haven't even purified yet. She can summon biblical animals whilst they can't. And she can even hurt people better, and all whilst being praised by every single AA at specific turns and points in the story. As much as people want to tell me the Meliodas slap moment is irrelevant or for ''comedic'' effect, it is still a objective fact that Elizabeth was able to hurt Meliodas for a bruise, whilst Ludoshel could only scratch Zeldris - and they both used similar basic arks.

So with this in mind, and that we've ascertained that Elizabeth's ark has achieved superior feats to the AA:

-Sariel is garbage without Tornado
-Tarmiel is garbage without Ocean
-Ludoshel is 100% garbage since Flash just gives speed and not another method of attack. So as you said, if Elizabeth would have a ''unfavourable'' time against Gloxinia or Drole, he would have it even worse, because he has weaker feats than Elizabeth.
-Mael is garbage without sunshine active, so he's basically Ludoshel 2.0 at midnight.

If you said Elizabeth would struggle against demon and non-demon opponnents alike than this applies to all the AA's as well, especially Ludoshel since his grace is just speed, but I guarantee you won't agree with this :-_-

Also, where did you get the idea that ark seems ineffective against non-demons? Fodder Goddess used it against Fodder-humans in the Holy War when they were fighting, and it ended up being perfectly effective.

Plus: if the Goddess can heal or buff any race, then why can't they hurt non-demons?

Generally if we're talking about fighting demons i'd place her at the low commandment level(Around Fraudrin and Galan level). MAYBE middle at her max power, but she's shown nothing to display she can fight at the level and gruesomeness of Derriere. Especially since one hit from Derriere knocked her out for minutes.
Nonsense as well. If a Elizabeth in a human form, without any memories was able to completely roast and melt Derriere's hand off the bone, then how did you come to this conclusion?

A human Elizabeth with memories should be top tier commandment level minimum - since she easily dealt with Derriere, who is also high-tier in a weaker form very easily. And considering how Elizabeth is 100% magic, it could explain how she can hurt people like Assault Meliodas.

A Goddess Elizabeth should be AA+ considering how if we look at the facts. She has been praised by every single AA for either grand healing or offensive ark, all whilst doing feats they were incapable of doing. Elizabeth isn't scared of Meliodas, and can hurt him. The AA's are scared of Meliodas, and can't hurt him as seen by Ludoshel not being able to hurt Zeldris, an inferior demon. Coincidence? I think not :cheez:teehee

Also:

-One punch from Derriere. No damage and only knocked her unconscious because she was off-guard

-Elizabeth at her weakest does a simple and basic ark. *Melts her hand completely*

Mhm I can see that she can't match Derriere :derp

If we're putting her against Non demonic foes such as Gloxinia, Diane, King, Dolor,etc? She has shown nothing that can keep them at bay. Ark would have no particular advantage, she doesnt have the speed to keep up with them, nor can she purge them. Against them she'd be a tier below commandment.
Well neither has any of the AA's if we remove the Graces, which aren't technically their powers.
I'd argue she does have the speed, considering how she can use her wings for flight.

So if Elizabeth is a tier below commandment in this situation, then please place the AA's at Holy Knight Grandmaster level :pwnge:cheez since their ark is weaker in every possible way :hee
 

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I'm sorry, but this is absolute nonsense :nah

Where did you get the idea that ark isn't effective or even usable against opponents that aren't demons? Because by this logic, not only is Elizabeth less effective against the Fairies, Giants, Humans and Goddesses when it comes to her ark usage, but so is everybody else in her clan. So that means the Supreme Goddess isn't truly at the level of the Demon King because her effectiveness is limited to demons only, whilst the DK is effective against everybody. This would also mean the Four Archangels is less effective and would potentially struggle against opponents outside of the Demon Clan, and this would also mean Fodder Goddesses are irrelevant outside hunting down Fodder Demons.

But wait, I can already hear it: ''But the AA are 90k, and have Graces'' - Still doesn't matter. Elizabeth's ark in every way has highlighted superiority over the AA's. She can heal better. She can purify better, whilst they haven't even purified yet. She can summon biblical animals whilst they can't. And she can even hurt people better, and all whilst being praised by every single AA at specific turns and points in the story. As much as people want to tell me the Meliodas slap moment is irrelevant or for ''comedic'' effect, it is still a objective fact that Elizabeth was able to hurt Meliodas for a bruise, whilst Ludoshel could only scratch Zeldris - and they both used similar basic arks.

So with this in mind, and that we've ascertained that Elizabeth's ark has achieved superior feats to the AA:

-Sariel is garbage without Tornado
-Tarmiel is garbage without Ocean
-Ludoshel is 100% garbage since Flash just gives speed and not another method of attack. So as you said, if Elizabeth would have a ''unfavourable'' time against Gloxinia or Drole, he would have it even worse, because he has weaker feats than Elizabeth.
-Mael is garbage without sunshine active, so he's basically Ludoshel 2.0 at midnight.

If you said Elizabeth would struggle against demon and non-demon opponnents alike than this applies to all the AA's as well, especially Ludoshel since his grace is just speed, but I guarantee you won't agree with this :-_-

Also, where did you get the idea that ark seems ineffective against non-demons? Fodder Goddess used it against Fodder-humans in the Holy War when they were fighting, and it ended up being perfectly effective.

Plus: if the Goddess can heal or buff any race, then why can't they hurt non-demons?



Nonsense as well. If a Elizabeth in a human form, without any memories was able to completely roast and melt Derriere's hand off the bone, then how did you come to this conclusion?

A human Elizabeth with memories should be top tier commandment level minimum - since she easily dealt with Derriere, who is also high-tier in a weaker form very easily. And considering how Elizabeth is 100% magic, it could explain how she can hurt people like Assault Meliodas.

A Goddess Elizabeth should be AA+ considering how if we look at the facts. She has been praised by every single AA for either grand healing or offensive ark, all whilst doing feats they were incapable of doing. Elizabeth isn't scared of Meliodas, and can hurt him. The AA's are scared of Meliodas, and can't hurt him as seen by Ludoshel not being able to hurt Zeldris, an inferior demon. Coincidence? I think not :cheez:teehee

Also:

-One punch from Derriere. No damage and only knocked her unconscious because she was off-guard

-Elizabeth at her weakest does a simple and basic ark. *Melts her hand completely*

Mhm I can see that she can't match Derriere :derp



Well neither has any of the AA's if we remove the Graces, which aren't technically their powers.
I'd argue she does have the speed, considering how she can use her wings for flight.

So if Elizabeth is a tier below commandment in this situation, then please place the AA's at Holy Knight Grandmaster level :pwnge:cheez since their ark is weaker in every possible way :hee
When did I say Ark is useless against non-demonic foes?? I just said it doesn't have the advantage it would as if it was a demon. It would do its base damage, but other races arent vulnerable the way demons are to it, simple as that. We also have no way to scale Elizabeth's ark's damage other than seeing them used on demons. Show me a scan of Elizabeth using ark on a non demonic foe. You cant. Also she didn't 'easily' deal with Derriere. Derriere was literally slowly reaching towards her, and even stood there as her hand was destroyed. Derriere couldve easily killed Elizabeth on the spot, and would have, had Meliodas not intervened. Also back to my point about Ark and it's natural advantage over demons. Needless to say, an ark certainly can hurt a non demonic foe, but not to the extent it would a demon. Elizabeth also cannot purge a non demonic foe, nor has she shown speed on par with the likes of Gloxinia or Diane. Nor even reaction speed. Her keeping up with Gloxinia and Mel cannot be scaled because for one, were they going max speed? What speed were they going? Was it combat speed? No. Durability is another thing. How hard does an ark hit if it hits a non demonic foe? How hard would Elizabeths? Does she have the speed to tag Gloxinia or Dolor? All of these things must be added up, and they certainly arent in favor of Elizabeth. Ludoshell's grace would indeed allow him to defeat the likes of Dolor and Gloxinia due to him not only outspeeding Monspiet and Derriere, but cutting through them like butter. He has the speed to surprise them and use that to his advantage. Can Elizabeth out flank them with such speed? Can she even take a direct hit from a high tier character and shrug it off like Ludoshell did? She certainly cannot lol. My only point was ALL of these factors, go against Elizabeth, and will continue to do so until she gains more feats.

I wanna bring another point here. You goddess fans have a VERY huge tendency to twist words. Both you and Undina do it ALOT. I never mentioned Ark being ineffective or unusable against non demonic opponents. Hell there's times Undina has straight up accused me of shit I never even said. I get you guys are passionate about her a lot but it's annoying when your words are misconstrued
 
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Where was this conclusion made from?
Well just from what we've seen so far about Elizabeth, she has yet to dodge a single attack by herself that I can think of. I don't think shes all of a sudden going to outspeed a 142K character.

But where all those moments on the level of Elizabeth's disobedience right now?
Meliodas never said that she couldn't stop the Indura, he just screamed her name when she flew off in their direction.
Those several incarnations have hit Meliodas for as you said ''comedic effect''. Liz hitting him because he was grabbing her breasts is not the same as Elizabeth hitting Meliodas when they were having a serious discussion about what to do about the curses, it's like comparing night to day.

If Nakaba was really going for comedic effect, then he would've had Elizabeth do a normal slap on him, then latter have her escape through other methods (she could've literally just run away when he wasn't looking lol) but instead of that he opted for the ark blast approach. Why? There's no reason to make her use her magic if you're opting for comedic effect, or to plot her back to the sins, he could've done left out the magic and let her escape in other ways, but Nakaba decided to make her use her magic, and if you ask me, it's to both emphasise her resolve about saving Meliodas and doing her own thing, and to highlight her ark.
But we knew that Mel was never going to let her out of his sight. Even chandler said as much. As for the discussion being serious, Mel really didn't even seem to care for her viewpoint. He just said I'm doing this and that's that. And I suppose Nakaba could've drawn it in a billion different ways, but he just chose to do it that way.

Where does it say that purification attacks the spirit or any of that information you just gave me?
I wouldn't call it a ''scratch'' - that would be what Ludoshel gave to Zeldris. It was more like a heavy bruise what Elizabeth gave Meliodas.

Plus, if purification > offensive is 100% fact then why didn't any of the AA think smartly and use purification themselves?
I didn't say it attacks the spirit, I was alluding to how it works like an attack on the spirit. It basically goes inside and purifies. As to why the AA didn't purify the Inudra, they hate the demons. Even when Elizabeth was doing it they didn't jump on board. They still had yet to show their graces and Ludo was about to get serious.

Zel's DK power could literally be a 2K PL, no one knows the specific of how it works. So assuming that's it's a God's power alone isn't eno
We know it's one of his most powerful assets though. He was getting crushed to death so it makes sense that he'd try to use something strong. Pre Mel even said that he wasn't on a tier compared to it and Melasucla said that only DK magic tier can burst her gloom cocoon. A feat comparable to Escanor's sunshine. Plus when he compared Mel's might he noted that it surpassed his borrowed strength and that led him to dub Mel's magic as being monstrous. Also I don't think the DK would give Zeldris crappy power.
 

OtakuFreak

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When did I say Ark is useless against non-demonic foes??
You never said, but you heavily suggested it with the ''well Elizabeth doesn't really have anything to non-demons''

I just said it doesn't have the advantage it would as if it was a demon. It would do its base damage, but other races arent vulnerable the way demons are to it, simple as that. We also have no way to scale Elizabeth's ark's damage other than seeing them used on demons.
If she's capable of hurting a passive 142k demon with a simple ark, why are you thinking about whether or not her ark can or cannot hurt someone like Gloxinia or King?

You think Ludoshel can, and by that standard, so can Elizabeth.

Also she didn't 'easily' deal with Derriere. Derriere was literally slowly reaching towards her, and even stood there as her hand was destroyed. Derriere couldve easily killed Elizabeth on the spot, and would have, had Meliodas not intervened
By ''easy'' I mean't it was easy for Elizabeth to significantly harm Derriere.

Yeah, sure Derriere would've killed Elizabeth but only because Elizabeth had no idea how to fight or defend herself in that specific moment in time, since she had no memories. And her memories is what gives her access to more power usage and skill in fighting/defending herself.

Elizabeth with memories in my opinion is certainly superior to Derriere.

Also back to my point about Ark and it's natural advantage over demons. Needless to say, an ark certainly can hurt a non demonic foe, but not to the extent it would a demon. Elizabeth also cannot purge a non demonic foe
So why are you saying Elizabeth ''doesn't really have anything for non-demons'' when you say Ludoshel is capable of hurting non-demons, and his ark is weaker than her's? Speed doesn't mean anything if you can't hurt your opponent, as seen by Ludoshel vs Indura.

If you're suggesting that Elizabeth can't hurt Gloxinia or Drole then I don't see how Ludoshel can either, even if he can outspeed them.

Elizabeth also cannot purge a non demonic foe,
But she can still hurt them with ark.
And since you're suggesting Ludoshel could do the same to the Kings, then you need to accept that Elizabeth can do the same.

were they going max speed? What speed were they going? Was it combat speed?
They were serious in the moment of flight + they were heading off to battle, why wouldn't they go at max speed? It's not like they went for a picnic.

If Elizabeth was just as fast as them, and not even really putting much effort in, then why can't she be that fast when in combat? If you can move that fast out of combat then nothing is stopping you from doing the same in combat lol

Plus, Elizabeth has somehow gotten her wings back, and unless her human body means she can't fly that fast anymore, then she is fully capable of moving that speed in combat, but if she can't because of her human body, then you can't really make comparisons since she's basically nerfed and disadvantaged.

Can she even take a direct hit from a high tier character and shrug it off like Ludoshell did? She certainly cannot lol. My only point was ALL of these factors, go against Elizabeth, and will continue to do so until she gains more feats.
I'm fully confident that Elizabeth could take several counter-measures to ''direct hits'':

A) She can use an ark bubble to block it, or even counter-act with her own ark, and since Elizabeth's strongest asset is her magic, it should most likely work.
B) I'm sure she would last for several hits since she was doing just as well as second demon mark Meliodas in the Gods battle, and whilst we don't know the conditions of the battle, it's still impressive that Elizabeth was standing side by side to Meliodas as an equal eventhough many people say she's as durable as wet paper. And this ''fight'' proves she much more durable than that. So yes, she would last a few hits, nothing on Ludoshel's level, but still a few considerable hits.
C) Even if she gets hits and survives it, she can just heal herself.
D) Dodge it, she moved just as fast as second demon mark Meliodas when he was serious, so I don't see why she can't when she's already demonstrated she's very fast, unless of course, her human form negates this.

Elizabeth may be weaker physically to the AA's from what we've seen, but her magic can make up for that

I wanna bring another point here. You goddess fans have a VERY huge tendency to twist words. Both you and Undina do it ALOT. I never mentioned Ark being ineffective or unusable against non demonic opponents. Hell there's times Undina has straight up accused me of shit I never even said. I get you guys are passionate about her a lot but it's annoying when your words are misconstrued
Because you basically said Elizabeth's ark was useless on non-demons.
And even though you never directly said it, we both know it's what you mean't.

Well just from what we've seen so far about Elizabeth, she has yet to dodge a single attack by herself that I can think of. I don't think shes all of a sudden going to outspeed a 142K character.
Agree to Disagree

But we knew that Mel was never going to let her out of his sight. Even chandler said as much. As for the discussion being serious, Mel really didn't even seem to care for her viewpoint. He just said I'm doing this and that's that. And I suppose Nakaba could've drawn it in a billion different ways, but he just chose to do it that way.
He didn't care for her viewpoint because he has no emotions lol

But logically, he was paying attention to her since he was arguing with her.

I didn't say it attacks the spirit, I was alluding to how it works like an attack on the spirit. It basically goes inside and purifies. As to why the AA didn't purify the Inudra, they hate the demons. Even when Elizabeth was doing it they didn't jump on board. They still had yet to show their graces and Ludo was about to get serious.
Graces wouldn't have done anything.

Sariel and Tarmiel were both helpless to 3C-Estarossa even with their Graces, and I'd argue 2 Phase 2 Indura's are much more stronger than him.

So the AA's using their graces would've changed nothing, especially when Ludoshel just gets speed, and speed means diddly squat if you can't hurt the opponnent, which we've already established he wasn't able to.

''They hate demons'' - purify and then kill them then? Are you telling me 3AA would rather die than use the apparent ''purify > offensive ark'' strategy? Nonsense.

We know it's one of his most powerful assets though. He was getting crushed to death so it makes sense that he'd try to use something strong. Pre Mel even said that he wasn't on a tier compared to it and Melasucla said that only DK magic tier can burst her gloom cocoon. A feat comparable to Escanor's sunshine. Plus when he compared Mel's might he noted that it surpassed his borrowed strength and that led him to dub Mel's magic as being monstrous. Also I don't think the DK would give Zeldris crappy power.
We don't know whether or not Zeldris God magic gives him a PL boost or access to limited and exclusive powerful abilities. If it's the latter, then the abilities are just OP and don't boost his PL in anyway. (So he''s basically Merlin)

If it's the latter, it explains why it's still a powerful asset, because he do things Meliodas can't, such as escape Gloom cocoon without enormous raw power, seal people etc.
 
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Commanderaxe

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You never said, but you heavily suggested it with the ''well Elizabeth doesn't really have anything to non-demons''

If she's capable of hurting a passive 142k demon with a simple ark, why are you thinking about whether or not her ark can or cannot hurt someone like Gloxinia or King?

You think Ludoshel can, and by that standard, so can Elizabeth.
I said she "has nothing that can keep them at bay" not "doesn't have anything to hurt non-demons". I just meant she has nothing overwhelmingly advantageous. It can hurt them, but theres no scan showing that a simple ark can disintegrate their very bones like it did to Derriere. If Elizabeth before her memories awakened with 1700 magic power level can hurt Derriere to that extent, then it goes to show the kind of effect Ark has specifically against demons. It's no surprise Meliodas even took some damage with her using such a large ark, despite him being passive. Only one who was able to shrug off arks to that extent was Estarossa, mainly due to Tamriel and Sariel being limited at that moment as well as Estarossa's brutal determination. And Elizabeth's bubble ark being more focused on displacement (although it was apparently meant to damage him to some extent).

By ''easy'' I mean't it was easy for Elizabeth to significantly harm Derriere.

Yeah, sure Derriere would've killed Elizabeth but only because Elizabeth had no idea how to fight or defend herself in that specific moment in time, since she had no memories. And her memories is what gives her access to more power usage and skill in fighting/defending herself.

Elizabeth with memories in my opinion is certainly superior to Derriere.
Depends on if Elizabeth can avoid being speed blitz, and if she can keep up with Derriere's ruthlessness. After all it's the same Derriere who kept pushing through Tamriels grace despite her hand being completely shredded.


So why are you saying Elizabeth ''doesn't really have anything for non-demons'' when you say Ludoshel is capable of hurting non-demons, and his ark is weaker than her's? Speed doesn't mean anything if you can't hurt your opponent, as seen by Ludoshel vs Indura.

If you're suggesting that Elizabeth can't hurt Gloxinia or Drole then I don't see how Ludoshel can either, even if he can outspeed them.

But she can still hurt them with ark.
And since you're suggesting Ludoshel could do the same to the Kings, then you need to accept that Elizabeth can do the same.
Back to my previous statement. Ark CAN hurt non demonic foes, but it would most likely take more hits than if it was a demon. Ludoshell has the speed and durability to keep up such a barrage of attacks. Elizabeth has not been shown to have those stats.

They were serious in the moment of flight + they were heading off to battle, why wouldn't they go at max speed? It's not like they went for a picnic.

If Elizabeth was just as fast as them, and not even really putting much effort in, then why can't she be that fast when in combat? If you can move that fast out of combat then nothing is stopping you from doing the same in combat lol

Plus, Elizabeth has somehow gotten her wings back, and unless her human body means she can't fly that fast anymore, then she is fully capable of moving that speed in combat, but if she can't because of her human body, then you can't really make comparisons since she's basically nerfed and disadvantaged.
Literally doesn't state they were going full speed. And combat speed is far different than travel speed. Combat speed and reaction speed are two of the most important aspects of battle. See how Meliodas, Dolor, and Gloxinia went at it during their battle? Back and forth clashes of immense speed, with Meliodas outspeeding Gloxinia and Dolor countless times and dealing heavy incapacitating blows. Elizabeth has no such scan of fighting at such a capacity.

I'm fully confident that Elizabeth could take several counter-measures to ''direct hits'':

A) She can use an ark bubble to block it, or even counter-act with her own ark, and since Elizabeth's strongest asset is her magic, it should most likely work.
B) I'm sure she would last for several hits since she was doing just as well as second demon mark Meliodas in the Gods battle, and whilst we don't know the conditions of the battle, it's still impressive that Elizabeth was standing side by side to Meliodas as an equal eventhough many people say she's as durable as wet paper. And this ''fight'' proves she much more durable than that. So yes, she would last a few hits, nothing on Ludoshel's level, but still a few considerable hits.
C) Even if she gets hits and survives it, she can just heal herself.
D) Dodge it, she moved just as fast as second demon mark Meliodas when he was serious, so I don't see why she can't when she's already demonstrated she's very fast, unless of course, her human form negates this.

Elizabeth may be weaker physically to the AA's from what we've seen, but her magic can make up for
A) Sure, for how long? If her opponent is Estarossa's level they can easily break out of it. Not to mention she tagged Estarossa mid-air, yelling across the entire battlefield.
B).She got knocked out by Derriere with 1 hit. The gods couldve used cutting spells rather than blunt force for all we know. We have no context of the battle. It cannot be used.
C). Yea that went so well against Derriere?
D). Was not combat speed. Listen. Combat speed is the split second reaction to an attack, it's counter attacking before your enemy can realize, it's being brutal and relentless to end things as fast as you can such as Mel vs Dolor and Glox, or Mel vs Hendrickson. She's shown no combat speed whatsoever.

Because you basically said Elizabeth's ark was useless on non-demons.
And even though you never directly said it, we both know it's what you mean't.
That's what I meant? Really? Because not ONCE was I thinking it'd be useless. Not sure where you got professor x's powers from tbh.
 
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But logically, he was paying attention to her since he was arguing with her.
Sure he was, but odds are he probably didn't care lol

You never said, but you heavily suggested it with the ''well Elizabeth doesn't really have anything to non-demons''



If she's capable of hurting a passive 142k demon with a simple ark, why are you thinking about whether or not her ark can or cannot hurt someone like Gloxinia or King?

You think Ludoshel can, and by that standard, so can Elizabeth.



By ''easy'' I mean't it was easy for Elizabeth to significantly harm Derriere.

Yeah, sure Derriere would've killed Elizabeth but only because Elizabeth had no idea how to fight or defend herself in that specific moment in time, since she had no memories. And her memories is what gives her access to more power usage and skill in fighting/defending herself.

Elizabeth with memories in my opinion is certainly superior to Derriere.



So why are you saying Elizabeth ''doesn't really have anything for non-demons'' when you say Ludoshel is capable of hurting non-demons, and his ark is weaker than her's? Speed doesn't mean anything if you can't hurt your opponent, as seen by Ludoshel vs Indura.

If you're suggesting that Elizabeth can't hurt Gloxinia or Drole then I don't see how Ludoshel can either, even if he can outspeed them.



But she can still hurt them with ark.
And since you're suggesting Ludoshel could do the same to the Kings, then you need to accept that Elizabeth can do the same.



They were serious in the moment of flight + they were heading off to battle, why wouldn't they go at max speed? It's not like they went for a picnic.

If Elizabeth was just as fast as them, and not even really putting much effort in, then why can't she be that fast when in combat? If you can move that fast out of combat then nothing is stopping you from doing the same in combat lol

Plus, Elizabeth has somehow gotten her wings back, and unless her human body means she can't fly that fast anymore, then she is fully capable of moving that speed in combat, but if she can't because of her human body, then you can't really make comparisons since she's basically nerfed and disadvantaged.



I'm fully confident that Elizabeth could take several counter-measures to ''direct hits'':

A) She can use an ark bubble to block it, or even counter-act with her own ark, and since Elizabeth's strongest asset is her magic, it should most likely work.
B) I'm sure she would last for several hits since she was doing just as well as second demon mark Meliodas in the Gods battle, and whilst we don't know the conditions of the battle, it's still impressive that Elizabeth was standing side by side to Meliodas as an equal eventhough many people say she's as durable as wet paper. And this ''fight'' proves she much more durable than that. So yes, she would last a few hits, nothing on Ludoshel's level, but still a few considerable hits.
C) Even if she gets hits and survives it, she can just heal herself.
D) Dodge it, she moved just as fast as second demon mark Meliodas when he was serious, so I don't see why she can't when she's already demonstrated she's very fast, unless of course, her human form negates this.

Elizabeth may be weaker physically to the AA's from what we've seen, but her magic can make up for that



Because you basically said Elizabeth's ark was useless on non-demons.
And even though you never directly said it, we both know it's what you mean't.



Agree to Disagree



He didn't care for her viewpoint because he has no emotions lol

But logically, he was paying attention to her since he was arguing with her.



Graces wouldn't have done anything.

Sariel and Tarmiel were both helpless to 3C-Estarossa even with their Graces, and I'd argue 2 Phase 2 Indura's are much more stronger than him.

So the AA's using their graces would've changed nothing, especially when Ludoshel just gets speed, and speed means diddly squat if you can't hurt the opponnent, which we've already established he wasn't able to.

''They hate demons'' - purify and then kill them then? Are you telling me 3AA would rather die than use the apparent ''purify > offensive ark'' strategy? Nonsense.



We don't know whether or not Zeldris God magic gives him a PL boost or access to limited and exclusive powerful abilities. If it's the latter, then the abilities are just OP and don't boost his PL in anyway. (So he''s basically Merlin)

If it's the latter, it explains why it's still a powerful asset, because he do things Meliodas can't, such as escape Gloom cocoon without enormous raw power, seal people etc.
I think it's too early to say that the graces wouldn't have done anything. Keep in mind that Indura aren't as deadly as people make them to be. Even in the demon realm induras have masters and aren't the dominating presence in there. Plus Ludo seemed like he had a plan

We don't know whether or not Zeldris God magic gives him a PL boost or access to limited and exclusive powerful abilities. If it's the latter, then the abilities are just OP
I actually didn't say that it boosted his power level. I just said that Mel's op dark magic overpowered whatever magic he used to try and set himself free.
 

sobreno

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Where was this conclusion made from?

I don't remember seeing a Elizabeth vs AM flying race.

Plus, if she slapped him, THEN immediately flied away, she'd get a head start and he wouldn't be able to catch up with her due to being on the floor stunned. She was able to fly just as fast as second demon mark + Gloxinia without much effort, and unless a human body makes her slower when flying (which it shouldn't, I imagine the wings do it all), then she should be fine to get away from Meliodas.

That's why I'm confused as fuck, he makes her bring out her wings to save Estarossa but not to fly the fuck away from Meliodas and Chandler who wanted to lock her in a basement and basically torture her? 0 logic Nakaba

But still, theoretically, she could've slapped him, leave him on the floor stunned, and then immediately fly away at high speeds, and since Meliodas didn't go after her when she was running at human speed, he wouldn't bother chasing her if she was flying.

So yeah, she has the potential to escape or outspeed AM without the need of comedic effect.



But where all those moments on the level of Elizabeth's disobedience right now?
Meliodas never said that she couldn't stop the Indura, he just screamed her name when she flew off in their direction.
Those several incarnations have hit Meliodas for as you said ''comedic effect''. Liz hitting him because he was grabbing her breasts is not the same as Elizabeth hitting Meliodas when they were having a serious discussion about what to do about the curses, it's like comparing night to day.

If Nakaba was really going for comedic effect, then he would've had Elizabeth do a normal slap on him, then latter have her escape through other methods (she could've literally just run away when he wasn't looking lol) but instead of that he opted for the ark blast approach. Why? There's no reason to make her use her magic if you're opting for comedic effect, or to plot her back to the sins, he could've done left out the magic and let her escape in other ways, but Nakaba decided to make her use her magic, and if you ask me, it's to both emphasise her resolve about saving Meliodas and doing her own thing, and to highlight her ark.



Where does it say that purification attacks the spirit or any of that information you just gave me?
I wouldn't call it a ''scratch'' - that would be what Ludoshel gave to Zeldris. It was more like a heavy bruise what Elizabeth gave Meliodas.

Plus, if purification > offensive is 100% fact then why didn't any of the AA think smartly and use purification themselves?

''They didn't want to'' - sure, but in the process of their stupid arrogance they would die

''They can't'' - more reason that Elizabeth ark > AA



Zel's DK power could literally be a 2K PL, no one knows the specific of how it works. So assuming that's it's a God's power alone isn't eno



Mhm, not Guila tier.

I'd say anybody from Elaine and above could've done what Elizabeth did.



:cheez Finally we agree on something :cheez



That's down to Nakaba. He's the only one who knows why he hasn't confirmed Elizabeth's PL or giving her a fight yet.




Even a PL confirmation would be enough to please a lot of the community



I'm sorry, but this is absolute nonsense :nah

Where did you get the idea that ark isn't effective or even usable against opponents that aren't demons? Because by this logic, not only is Elizabeth less effective against the Fairies, Giants, Humans and Goddesses when it comes to her ark usage, but so is everybody else in her clan. So that means the Supreme Goddess isn't truly at the level of the Demon King because her effectiveness is limited to demons only, whilst the DK is effective against everybody. This would also mean the Four Archangels is less effective and would potentially struggle against opponents outside of the Demon Clan, and this would also mean Fodder Goddesses are irrelevant outside hunting down Fodder Demons.

But wait, I can already hear it: ''But the AA are 90k, and have Graces'' - Still doesn't matter. Elizabeth's ark in every way has highlighted superiority over the AA's. She can heal better. She can purify better, whilst they haven't even purified yet. She can summon biblical animals whilst they can't. And she can even hurt people better, and all whilst being praised by every single AA at specific turns and points in the story. As much as people want to tell me the Meliodas slap moment is irrelevant or for ''comedic'' effect, it is still a objective fact that Elizabeth was able to hurt Meliodas for a bruise, whilst Ludoshel could only scratch Zeldris - and they both used similar basic arks.

So with this in mind, and that we've ascertained that Elizabeth's ark has achieved superior feats to the AA:

-Sariel is garbage without Tornado
-Tarmiel is garbage without Ocean
-Ludoshel is 100% garbage since Flash just gives speed and not another method of attack. So as you said, if Elizabeth would have a ''unfavourable'' time against Gloxinia or Drole, he would have it even worse, because he has weaker feats than Elizabeth.
-Mael is garbage without sunshine active, so he's basically Ludoshel 2.0 at midnight.

If you said Elizabeth would struggle against demon and non-demon opponnents alike than this applies to all the AA's as well, especially Ludoshel since his grace is just speed, but I guarantee you won't agree with this :-_-

Also, where did you get the idea that ark seems ineffective against non-demons? Fodder Goddess used it against Fodder-humans in the Holy War when they were fighting, and it ended up being perfectly effective.

Plus: if the Goddess can heal or buff any race, then why can't they hurt non-demons?



Nonsense as well. If a Elizabeth in a human form, without any memories was able to completely roast and melt Derriere's hand off the bone, then how did you come to this conclusion?

A human Elizabeth with memories should be top tier commandment level minimum - since she easily dealt with Derriere, who is also high-tier in a weaker form very easily. And considering how Elizabeth is 100% magic, it could explain how she can hurt people like Assault Meliodas.

A Goddess Elizabeth should be AA+ considering how if we look at the facts. She has been praised by every single AA for either grand healing or offensive ark, all whilst doing feats they were incapable of doing. Elizabeth isn't scared of Meliodas, and can hurt him. The AA's are scared of Meliodas, and can't hurt him as seen by Ludoshel not being able to hurt Zeldris, an inferior demon. Coincidence? I think not :cheez:teehee

Also:

-One punch from Derriere. No damage and only knocked her unconscious because she was off-guard

-Elizabeth at her weakest does a simple and basic ark. *Melts her hand completely*

Mhm I can see that she can't match Derriere :derp



Well neither has any of the AA's if we remove the Graces, which aren't technically their powers.
I'd argue she does have the speed, considering how she can use her wings for flight.

So if Elizabeth is a tier below commandment in this situation, then please place the AA's at Holy Knight Grandmaster level :pwnge:cheez since their ark is weaker in every possible way :hee
Even that, a PL confirmation, Nakaba doesn't even give her current PL lmao.

That show you his lack of care.
 

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Not really. She casually destroyed Derieri’s hand before she fully regained her goddess powers and memories when Nerobasta failed to do so with her Arc while possessing Denzel. 3000 years ago she pushed back Indura Derrieri and Indura Monspeet. Than she slapped and damaged Assault Mode Meliodas. Later on she also easily destroyed Estarossa’s Black Hound. Now a couple of chapters ago she also damaged 3C Estarossa.
-Derierre actually used darkness to defend herself against Nerobasta.While against Eli,she just allowed her to explode the Ark on her hand with no defences.
This is irrelevant to the Assault mode Mel situation,so I don't know why you brought it up.

-The Indura situation doesn't help your case at all.With the Induras,she poured all of magic into 1 technique to push them back,yet she sent Mel flying with a casual Ark.That proves that it's an outlier.lol
-Getting rid of Estarossa’s flames isn't impressive.Derierre described his flames as shoddy.
-She was only able to put a tiny bruise on Estarossa's cheek.It was next to nothing really.

The Assault mode Mel situation is a plain outlier..
 

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I said she "has nothing that can keep them at bay" not "doesn't have anything to hurt non-demons". I just meant she has nothing overwhelmingly advantageous.
Fair enough.

It can hurt them, but theres no scan showing that a simple ark can disintegrate their very bones like it did to Derriere. If Elizabeth before her memories awakened with 1700 magic power level can hurt Derriere to that extent, then it goes to show the kind of effect Ark has specifically against demons.
Elizabeth without memories is at 1700 magic power, but in the moment against Derriere she unconsciously used the maximum amount of power she could've used, so basically, she was using the level of power that only Human Elizabeth with memories could access. Elizabeth has always had that power inside of her, but without memories it wasn't accessible to her, so in a moment of desperation, she was able to use it without awareness.

If you disagree, that's fine, but if you do then I'd like to see your explanation as to how Elizabeth at 1.7k (which that attack Elizabeth used differently wasn't) can hurt a demon at 50k+ when Nerobasta, who's stronger to Elizabeth without memories wasn't able to do what our princess achieved.

It's no surprise Meliodas even took some damage with her using such a large ark, despite him being passive. Only one who was able to shrug off arks to that extent was Estarossa, mainly due to Tamriel and Sariel being limited at that moment as well as Estarossa's brutal determination. And Elizabeth's bubble ark being more focused on displacement (although it was apparently meant to damage him to some extent).
I honestly believe that people overestimate Assault Meliodas.
He was passive, not in battle against Elizabeth, and didn't have the chance to block the attack given the circumstances, hence how Elizabeth was able to hurt him.

Depends on if Elizabeth can avoid being speed blitz, and if she can keep up with Derriere's ruthlessness. After all it's the same Derriere who kept pushing through Tamriels grace despite her hand being completely shredded.
Since this is Derriere, and not Meliodas, I'd be more inclined to believe that Elizabeth can avoid being as you call it ''blitz''.

Back to my previous statement. Ark CAN hurt non demonic foes, but it would most likely take more hits than if it was a demon. Ludoshell has the speed and durability to keep up such a barrage of attacks. Elizabeth has not been shown to have those stats.
Elizabeth has durability and speed, it just isn't on Ludoshel's level, but she makes up for it by having stronger magic, so any attacks Elizabeth would use would end up doing more damage than Ludoshel.

Literally doesn't state they were going full speed. And combat speed is far different than travel speed. Combat speed and reaction speed are two of the most important aspects of battle. See how Meliodas, Dolor, and Gloxinia went at it during their battle? Back and forth clashes of immense speed, with Meliodas outspeeding Gloxinia and Dolor countless times and dealing heavy incapacitating blows. Elizabeth has no such scan of fighting at such a capacity.
And logically, what makes you think Elizabeth can't move as fast as them as well in a fight?

A) Sure, for how long? If her opponent is Estarossa's level they can easily break out of it. Not to mention she tagged Estarossa mid-air, yelling across the entire battlefield.
A) I didn't mean ark bubble the enemy, but herself, like how Ludoshel blocked Zeldris magic attack. And if they did decide to ark bubble the enemy it would have greater effectiveness this time, since she would have both the will and technique to make the ability more offensive, something she never did against Estarossa initially.

B).She got knocked out by Derriere with 1 hit. The gods couldve used cutting spells rather than blunt force for all we know. We have no context of the battle. It cannot be used.
B) It wasn't Derriere's punch that knocked her out, but the collision she had with the ground. Plus, if you ask me, it feels like Nakaba made Elizabeth get ''knocked'' unconscious by the punch to introduce dramatic effect, to emphasise how apologetic Elizabeth is about Meliodas situation and how she wasn't able to stop the war. Plus, Nakaba probably had to plot a way into making Elizabeth disappear for 1-2 chapters so he could make the AA's vs TC's happen without the princess crying for them to stop every 5 seconds.

D). Was not combat speed. Listen. Combat speed is the split second reaction to an attack, it's counter attacking before your enemy can realize, it's being brutal and relentless to end things as fast as you can such as Mel vs Dolor and Glox, or Mel vs Hendrickson. She's shown no combat speed whatsoever.
Mhm, fair enough.

I think it's too early to say that the graces wouldn't have done anything. Keep in mind that Indura aren't as deadly as people make them to be. Even in the demon realm induras have masters and aren't the dominating presence in there. Plus Ludo seemed like he had a plan
Yes, they are as deadly as people make them out to be, because they are the most hated kind of the demon, even in the underworld. Galan and Fraudrin reacted with fear to them, because if they went near the Indura, they would've been killed since Indura attacks friend and foe, unless of course you tame one, but even then, the underworld probably has special mechanisms in place to stop them from just destroying everything, and since we don't know much about the demonic realm, I won't comment too much on it.

Also, how are the Indura not deadly? They aren't even trying in their Phase 1 Form yet this happened:

-Monspiet was able to remove Sariel and Tarmiel from the fight by basically ''one-shotting'' them, and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's intervention which forcefully pushed Monspiet back, releasing his grip on the critically injured AA's, they would've never had the opportunity to heal themselves and return to the fight, and if it wasn't for Ludoshel indirectly entertaining the Indura by dodging and weaving around them occasionally, they would've probably just outright killed Sariel and Tarmiel for fun.

-Ludoshel couldn't harm Derriere with his ark and even with Flash, Derriere in Phase 1 without much effort was able to catch up to him several times and land physical hits.

If Elizabeth hadn't intervened than Sariel and Tarmiel would've died, unless Ludoshel could've saved them, but since this is a 1v2 instead of a 3v2 now, and he can't even handle Phase 1 1v1, I very heavily doubt he can 1v2 Phase 2 Indura's, even if used his grace to it's full potential, or ended up using a suicidal move much like Indura. In fact, I'd even boldy say that Assault Meliodas would have some difficulty dealing with two Phase 2 Indura they were that powerful.

So really, yes, the graces would've done nothing and all 3 of them probably would've been killed in the process, which makes sense considering how Galan and Fraudrin were basically saying that Ludoshel stood no chance and that he was finished (dead).

I actually didn't say that it boosted his power level. I just said that Mel's op dark magic overpowered whatever magic he used to try and set himself free.
Honestly, Zeldris is irrelevant in this show, I'm not surprised Meliodas had another moment of being praised for literally anything.

Even that, a PL confirmation, Nakaba doesn't even give her current PL lmao.

That show you his lack of care.
Be patient.

Derierre actually used darkness to defend herself against Nerobasta.While against Eli,she just allowed her to explode the Ark on her hand with no defences.
There was no visible darkness inside the bubble when Derriere was breaking out, darkness only came out after she escaped.

Plus, even if she used darkness, her magic is pitifully weak that even Nerobasta could overpower it with her ark, so the large majority of the effort required to defend herself against Nerobasta came from her physical strength.

And where did Derriere allow Elizabeth to hit her? There's a difference between letting it happen and not expecting it to happen.

Derriere just never expected it, and when it happened she was shocked, because she figured out Elizabeth is the Goddess Elizabeth and not some weak human, who she thought couldn't harm her 10 seconds ago.

-The Indura situation doesn't help your case at all.With the Induras,she poured all of magic into 1 technique to push them back,yet she sent Mel flying with a casual Ark.That proves that it's an outlier.lol
-Indura was a fight, slapping Meliodas wasn't.
-Against Indura she was in a 1v2, so her effectiveness was limited. If it was a 1v1 she would've purified Indura with mid-high difficulty.
-Meliodas never had the chance to defend against the slap, unlike the Indura who went to Phase 2 against Elizabeth
-Meliodas was passive, the Indura's were desperately fighting against Elizabeth's magic.

-She was only able to put a tiny bruise on Estarossa's cheek.It was next to nothing really.
But the feat becomes better when you consider:

-Elizabeth was getting choked but yet somehow didn't instantly die or be crushed.
-Elizabeth is in a weak human form, so her powers are limited
-She only used a basic and simple ark, but was still able to physically move him away, knock him back into reality and place a bruise on his fac

The Assault mode Mel situation is a plain outlier..
It really isn't, people just overestimate Assault Meliodas way too much.
A passive 142k isn't as hard as you think to hurt.
 
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MrSchmitty7

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Fair enough.



Elizabeth without memories is at 1700 magic power, but in the moment against Derriere she unconsciously used the maximum amount of power she could've used, so basically, she was using the level of power that only Human Elizabeth with memories could access. Elizabeth has always had that power inside of her, but without memories it wasn't accessible to her, so in a moment of desperation, she was able to use it without awareness.

If you disagree, that's fine, but if you do then I'd like to see your explanation as to how Elizabeth at 1.7k (which that attack Elizabeth used differently wasn't) can hurt a demon at 50k+ when Nerobasta, who's stronger to Elizabeth without memories wasn't able to do what our princess achieved.



I honestly believe that people overestimate Assault Meliodas.
He was passive, not in battle against Elizabeth, and didn't have the chance to block the attack given the circumstances, hence how Elizabeth was able to hurt him.



Since this is Derriere, and not Meliodas, I'd be more inclined to believe that Elizabeth can avoid being as you call it ''blitz''.



Elizabeth has durability and speed, it just isn't on Ludoshel's level, but she makes up for it by having stronger magic, so any attacks Elizabeth would use would end up doing more damage than Ludoshel.



And logically, what makes you think Elizabeth can't move as fast as them as well in a fight?



A) I didn't mean ark bubble the enemy, but herself, like how Ludoshel blocked Zeldris magic attack. And if they did decide to ark bubble the enemy it would have greater effectiveness this time, since she would have both the will and technique to make the ability more offensive, something she never did against Estarossa initially.



B) It wasn't Derriere's punch that knocked her out, but the collision she had with the ground. Plus, if you ask me, it feels like Nakaba made Elizabeth get ''knocked'' unconscious by the punch to introduce dramatic effect, to emphasise how apologetic Elizabeth is about Meliodas situation and how she wasn't able to stop the war. Plus, Nakaba probably had to plot a way into making Elizabeth disappear for 1-2 chapters so he could make the AA's vs TC's happen without the princess crying for them to stop every 5 seconds.



Mhm, fair enough.



Yes, they are as deadly as people make them out to be, because they are the most hated kind of the demon, even in the underworld. Galan and Fraudrin reacted with fear to them, because if they went near the Indura, they would've been killed since Indura attacks friend and foe, unless of course you tame one, but even then, the underworld probably has special mechanisms in place to stop them from just destroying everything, and since we don't know much about the demonic realm, I won't comment too much on it.

Also, how are the Indura not deadly? They aren't even trying in their Phase 1 Form yet this happened:

-Monspiet was able to remove Sariel and Tarmiel from the fight by basically ''one-shotting'' them, and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's intervention which forcefully pushed Monspiet back, releasing his grip on the critically injured AA's, they would've never had the opportunity to heal themselves and return to the fight, and if it wasn't for Ludoshel indirectly entertaining the Indura by dodging and weaving around them occasionally, they would've probably just outright killed Sariel and Tarmiel for fun.

-Ludoshel couldn't harm Derriere with his ark and even with Flash, Derriere in Phase 1 without much effort was able to catch up to him several times and land physical hits.

If Elizabeth hadn't intervened than Sariel and Tarmiel would've died, unless Ludoshel could've saved them, but since this is a 1v2 instead of a 3v2 now, and he can't even handle Phase 1 1v1, I very heavily doubt he can 1v2 Phase 2 Indura's, even if used his grace to it's full potential, or ended up using a suicidal move much like Indura. In fact, I'd even boldy say that Assault Meliodas would have some difficulty dealing with two Phase 2 Indura they were that powerful.

So really, yes, the graces would've done nothing and all 3 of them probably would've been killed in the process, which makes sense considering how Galan and Fraudrin were basically saying that Ludoshel stood no chance and that he was finished (dead).



Honestly, Zeldris is irrelevant in this show, I'm not surprised Meliodas had another moment of being praised for literally anything.



Be patient.



There was no visible darkness inside the bubble when Derriere was breaking out, darkness only came out after she escaped.

Plus, even if she used darkness, her magic is pitifully weak that even Nerobasta could overpower it with her ark, so the large majority of the effort required to defend herself against Nerobasta came from her physical strength.

And where did Derriere allow Elizabeth to hit her? There's a difference between letting it happen and not expecting it to happen.

Derriere just never expected it, and when it happened she was shocked, because she figured out Elizabeth is the Goddess Elizabeth and not some weak human, who she thought couldn't harm her 10 seconds ago.



-Indura was a fight, slapping Meliodas wasn't.
-Against Indura she was in a 1v2, so her effectiveness was limited. If it was a 1v1 she would've purified Indura with mid-high difficulty.
-Meliodas never had the chance to defend against the slap, unlike the Indura who went to Phase 2 against Elizabeth
-Meliodas was passive, the Indura's were desperately fighting against Elizabeth's magic.



But the feat becomes better when you consider:

-Elizabeth was getting choked but yet somehow didn't instantly die or be crushed.
-Elizabeth is in a weak human form, so her powers are limited
-She only used a basic and simple ark, but was still able to physically move him away, knock him back into reality and place a bruise on his fac



It really isn't, people just overestimate Assault Meliodas way too much.
A passive 142k isn't as hard as you think to hurt.
If there is a method to deal with the indura I’d imagine it involves magic, which means there is a way for lesser people to control them as pets. Even the royal family casually feeds disrespectful demons to them. Point being if they can be casually herded, then graces should be enough to contain them. I doubt the indura are placed into a world seal like the entire demon clan was
 

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Fair enough.



Elizabeth without memories is at 1700 magic power, but in the moment against Derriere she unconsciously used the maximum amount of power she could've used, so basically, she was using the level of power that only Human Elizabeth with memories could access. Elizabeth has always had that power inside of her, but without memories it wasn't accessible to her, so in a moment of desperation, she was able to use it without awareness.

If you disagree, that's fine, but if you do then I'd like to see your explanation as to how Elizabeth at 1.7k (which that attack Elizabeth used differently wasn't) can hurt a demon at 50k+ when Nerobasta, who's stronger to Elizabeth without memories wasn't able to do what our princess achieved.



I honestly believe that people overestimate Assault Meliodas.
He was passive, not in battle against Elizabeth, and didn't have the chance to block the attack given the circumstances, hence how Elizabeth was able to hurt him.



Since this is Derriere, and not Meliodas, I'd be more inclined to believe that Elizabeth can avoid being as you call it ''blitz''.



Elizabeth has durability and speed, it just isn't on Ludoshel's level, but she makes up for it by having stronger magic, so any attacks Elizabeth would use would end up doing more damage than Ludoshel.



And logically, what makes you think Elizabeth can't move as fast as them as well in a fight?



A) I didn't mean ark bubble the enemy, but herself, like how Ludoshel blocked Zeldris magic attack. And if they did decide to ark bubble the enemy it would have greater effectiveness this time, since she would have both the will and technique to make the ability more offensive, something she never did against Estarossa initially.



B) It wasn't Derriere's punch that knocked her out, but the collision she had with the ground. Plus, if you ask me, it feels like Nakaba made Elizabeth get ''knocked'' unconscious by the punch to introduce dramatic effect, to emphasise how apologetic Elizabeth is about Meliodas situation and how she wasn't able to stop the war. Plus, Nakaba probably had to plot a way into making Elizabeth disappear for 1-2 chapters so he could make the AA's vs TC's happen without the princess crying for them to stop every 5 seconds.



Mhm, fair enough.



Yes, they are as deadly as people make them out to be, because they are the most hated kind of the demon, even in the underworld. Galan and Fraudrin reacted with fear to them, because if they went near the Indura, they would've been killed since Indura attacks friend and foe, unless of course you tame one, but even then, the underworld probably has special mechanisms in place to stop them from just destroying everything, and since we don't know much about the demonic realm, I won't comment too much on it.

Also, how are the Indura not deadly? They aren't even trying in their Phase 1 Form yet this happened:

-Monspiet was able to remove Sariel and Tarmiel from the fight by basically ''one-shotting'' them, and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's intervention which forcefully pushed Monspiet back, releasing his grip on the critically injured AA's, they would've never had the opportunity to heal themselves and return to the fight, and if it wasn't for Ludoshel indirectly entertaining the Indura by dodging and weaving around them occasionally, they would've probably just outright killed Sariel and Tarmiel for fun.

-Ludoshel couldn't harm Derriere with his ark and even with Flash, Derriere in Phase 1 without much effort was able to catch up to him several times and land physical hits.

If Elizabeth hadn't intervened than Sariel and Tarmiel would've died, unless Ludoshel could've saved them, but since this is a 1v2 instead of a 3v2 now, and he can't even handle Phase 1 1v1, I very heavily doubt he can 1v2 Phase 2 Indura's, even if used his grace to it's full potential, or ended up using a suicidal move much like Indura. In fact, I'd even boldy say that Assault Meliodas would have some difficulty dealing with two Phase 2 Indura they were that powerful.

So really, yes, the graces would've done nothing and all 3 of them probably would've been killed in the process, which makes sense considering how Galan and Fraudrin were basically saying that Ludoshel stood no chance and that he was finished (dead).



Honestly, Zeldris is irrelevant in this show, I'm not surprised Meliodas had another moment of being praised for literally anything.



Be patient.



There was no visible darkness inside the bubble when Derriere was breaking out, darkness only came out after she escaped.

Plus, even if she used darkness, her magic is pitifully weak that even Nerobasta could overpower it with her ark, so the large majority of the effort required to defend herself against Nerobasta came from her physical strength.

And where did Derriere allow Elizabeth to hit her? There's a difference between letting it happen and not expecting it to happen.

Derriere just never expected it, and when it happened she was shocked, because she figured out Elizabeth is the Goddess Elizabeth and not some weak human, who she thought couldn't harm her 10 seconds ago.



-Indura was a fight, slapping Meliodas wasn't.
-Against Indura she was in a 1v2, so her effectiveness was limited. If it was a 1v1 she would've purified Indura with mid-high difficulty.
-Meliodas never had the chance to defend against the slap, unlike the Indura who went to Phase 2 against Elizabeth
-Meliodas was passive, the Indura's were desperately fighting against Elizabeth's magic.



But the feat becomes better when you consider:

-Elizabeth was getting choked but yet somehow didn't instantly die or be crushed.
-Elizabeth is in a weak human form, so her powers are limited
-She only used a basic and simple ark, but was still able to physically move him away, knock him back into reality and place a bruise on his fac



It really isn't, people just overestimate Assault Meliodas way too much.
A passive 142k isn't as hard as you think to hurt.
Be patient?

250+ chapter passed and still any sign of that lol, sure.
It is you who need to wait that before wanking her.
 

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Fair enough.



Elizabeth without memories is at 1700 magic power, but in the moment against Derriere she unconsciously used the maximum amount of power she could've used, so basically, she was using the level of power that only Human Elizabeth with memories could access. Elizabeth has always had that power inside of her, but without memories it wasn't accessible to her, so in a moment of desperation, she was able to use it without awareness.

If you disagree, that's fine, but if you do then I'd like to see your explanation as to how Elizabeth at 1.7k (which that attack Elizabeth used differently wasn't) can hurt a demon at 50k+ when Nerobasta, who's stronger to Elizabeth without memories wasn't able to do what our princess achieved.
We have literally no statement from that at all. Hell, she didnt even awaken her memories, she could've only used her maximum non memory power. As for Nerobasta, we have no clue how strong Nerobasta is, she could be anywhere from only 1k stronger to 3k stronger. Not to mention Elizabeth focused her ark on a small part of Derriere's body. Nerobasta's ark covered the entirety and even then pieces of Derriere's skin was peeling off. It's MUCH easier to affect one part of the body by focusing on it, than attempting to destroy the entire thing.

I honestly believe that people overestimate Assault Meliodas.
He was passive, not in battle against Elizabeth, and didn't have the chance to block the attack given the circumstances, hence how Elizabeth was able to hurt him.
All of that, as well as ark's properties. We already know ark hurts demons as shown numerous times before, this is no surprise. Of course it wasn't the only factor but it was a substantial one.


Since this is Derriere, and not Meliodas, I'd be more inclined to believe that Elizabeth can avoid being as you call it ''blitz''.
Hasn't shown very good speed feats honestly.

Elizabeth has durability and speed, it just isn't on Ludoshel's level, but she makes up for it by having stronger magic, so any attacks Elizabeth would use would end up doing more damage than Ludoshel.
But how much more? We don't even have a number. We don't even have a scan of ark actually damaging a non demonic foe to even scale it. Hell Ludoshell's big ass blast could only slightly bruise Zeldoris. Assuming Elizabeth is what? twice as strong? It still won't kill him, and that's assuming she even lands the first hit. Her durability is very low tier as we've seen, and no actual speed feats has been displayed. Hell her reaction speed has also been shown to be extremely shoddy.

And logically, what makes you think Elizabeth can't move as fast as them as well in a fight?
Alright, so to you, if she could keep up with them at "full speed' as you mentioned, then she could keep up with them in a fight right? Alright well you remember this moment?

Or this

Or the many other feats of speed in this manga? What were the determining factors? That's right power level. Now, look at this scan

Melidoas, who has a mark, even more complete than against Mon and Derriere, meaning at this moment, his power level is what, 80-90k? Even more? Is moving at the "same speed', as you put it, as Gloxinia and Dolor. Opponents he's supposed to be at least 25-30k ahead of at power level. Escanor who was over half an hour, (or an hour depending on translation) before noon was able to easily outspeed Estarossa to the point where he couldn't see, much less react. Same goes for a 10k level Meliodas who chopped off Ban's arm before he could even blink. Now, how would Dolor and Gloxinia, keep up with a full speed Meliodas, a Meliodas with a level MUCH higher than them? Unless you're now going to say that speed and overall power level aren't correlated lol. In any case, Mel was not going at full speed hence we cannot use that scan as a feat, especially not as combat speed since she clearly hasn't shown capability in it.

A) I didn't mean ark bubble the enemy, but herself, like how Ludoshel blocked Zeldris magic attack. And if they did decide to ark bubble the enemy it would have greater effectiveness this time, since she would have both the will and technique to make the ability more offensive, something she never did against Estarossa initially.



B) It wasn't Derriere's punch that knocked her out, but the collision she had with the ground. Plus, if you ask me, it feels like Nakaba made Elizabeth get ''knocked'' unconscious by the punch to introduce dramatic effect, to emphasise how apologetic Elizabeth is about Meliodas situation and how she wasn't able to stop the war. Plus, Nakaba probably had to plot a way into making Elizabeth disappear for 1-2 chapters so he could make the AA's vs TC's happen without the princess crying for them to stop every 5 seconds.



Mhm, fair enough.
A) Ah then yes she can most likely do that. I'm highly doubting how much exactly she held back her 'offensiveness'. The archangels stated otherwise, and while perhaps she did hold back to some degree, I don't think the archangels would've praised her if it was by a large amount. Seems kinda useless to do that. It's like if I poked someone in the arm then my friend came up and said "HUZZUH! I see you survived Commanderaxe's poke unscratched, impressive!' It's just counter intuitive.

B) Proof? Her eyes were closed after the punch and that's the last we saw of her consciousness. You stated Nakaba did it for dramatic effect, or it was for plot, but that's literally just your opinion. The manga fact is, her durability allowed her to be unconscious after 1 hit from Derriere. The manga doesn't state it was for dramatic effect nor does the manga say 'it was just plot reader's dont worry'. The only time she was hit directly, she was knocked out, no changing that.
 

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There was no visible darkness inside the bubble when Derriere was breaking out, darkness only came out after she escaped.
It's crystal clear her darkness dispersed the Ark.
Pure physical strength is not going to allow you to interact with an Ark since it's made of particles of light.

Plus, even if she used darkness, her magic is pitifully weak that even Nerobasta could overpower it with her ark, so the large majority of the effort required to defend herself against Nerobasta came from her physical strength.
This is an untrue notion.Nothing proves that the magic stat determines how potent a demon's darkness is.
Example-Meliodas.
Also you got it mixed up.Nerobasta overpowered her physical strength,not her darkness.Derierre didn't even need to weaponise her darkness to get rid of the Ark.lol

And where did Derriere allow Elizabeth to hit her? There's a difference between letting it happen and not expecting it to happen.

Derriere just never expected it, and when it happened she was shocked, because she figured out Elizabeth is the Goddess Elizabeth and not some weak human, who she thought couldn't harm her 10 seconds ago.
Yeah,nooo..
Derriere allowed it.

She easily could've easily coated her hand in darkness before Eli got the chance to finish her sentence and explode the Ark.

-Indura was a fight, slapping Meliodas wasn't.
-Against Indura she was in a 1v2, so her effectiveness was limited. If it was a 1v1 she would've purified Indura with mid-high difficulty.
Sounds like fanfic

-Meliodas never had the chance to defend against the slap, unlike the Indura who went to Phase 2 against Elizabeth
-Meliodas was passive, the Indura's were desperately fighting against Elizabeth's magic.
He's in Assault mode.There's no need for manually put up defences since he's already in a mode that's ready for battle.

But the feat becomes better when you consider:

-Elizabeth was getting choked but yet somehow didn't instantly die or be crushed.
-Elizabeth is in a weak human form, so her powers are limited
I could argue that this is an outlier too :lmao
Also current Elizabeth powers isn't that limited.She's displayed way more techniques than her previous incarnations.The only thing left for her to do is use her light drills thingies.
There's also the fact that the Archangels made no distinction between current Elizabeth and Elizabeth from 3000 years ago as far as power is concerned when addressing said power.

-She only used a basic and simple ark, but was still able to physically move him away, knock him back into reality and place a bruise on his fac
That wasn't a basic Ark.

It really isn't, people just overestimate Assault Meliodas way too much.
A passive 142k isn't as hard as you think to hurt.
 

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It's crystal clear her darkness dispersed the Ark.
Pure physical strength is not going to allow you to interact with an Ark since it's made of particles of light.


This is an untrue notion.Nothing proves that the magic stat determines how potent a demon's darkness is.
Example-Meliodas.
Also you got it mixed up.Nerobasta overpowered her physical strength,not her darkness.Derierre didn't even need to weaponise her darkness to get rid of the Ark.lol


Yeah,nooo..
Derriere allowed it.

She easily could've easily coated her hand in darkness before Eli got the chance to finish her sentence and explode the Ark.


Sounds like fanfic


He's in Assault mode.There's no need for manually put up defences since he's already in a mode that's ready for battle.


I could argue that this is an outlier too :lmao
Also current Elizabeth powers isn't that limited.She's displayed way more techniques than her previous incarnations.The only thing left for her to do is use her light drills thingies.
There's also the fact that the Archangels made no distinction between current Elizabeth and Elizabeth from 3000 years ago as far as power is concerned when addressing said power.


That wasn't a basic Ark.


Told you that guy is out of his mind when it comes that princess lol.
 
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