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Discussion Estimating Characters PL

Discussion in 'Nanatsu no Taizai' started by OtakuFreak, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. OtakuFreak

    OtakuFreak Registered User

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    Just because they can be controlled by the Demonic Royal Family doesn't mean the Goddesses can do the same either.

    Point is, the graces will do nothing against the Indura, because:

    -Sariel and Tarmiel were once again defeated and couldn't recover without assistance, which Ludoshel couldn't give by himself
    -Ludoshel's grace just gives speed, and since his ark can't do damage, it means the best he can do is avoid them or recover the other AA and run for it.
    -The Grace dimensions can't hold people stronger than them, they would break out immediately.
    -Sariel and Tarmiel couldn't do anything against Estarossa, who's arguably much weaker than two phase 2 Indura's, so even if they were available for combat in a 3AA vs 2 Indura Phase 2, the result would've been the same.

    Everything suggests that the AA would have lost and as a result die, or in the best scenario, have to run away or get help from someone else, which came from Elizabeth, and coincidentally enough, he seemed very happy she appeared to help him, which I believed was because the AA were doomed without her.

    The best defence you have is ''well Ludoshel has a plan'' which means nothing when we don't know what it was, or whether or not it would've worked: so I think it's fair to conclude the 3AA would've died against Indura.

    71 chapters since the Goddess Elizabeth has been revealed.
    40+ chapters since Elizabeth has awakened.

    Be patient. Just do what I am doing. Wait until Chapter 300 and if there is no development on the Elizabeth PL situation then I'll personally find Nakaba and lynch him :cheez

    I'm pretty sure Elizabeth receiving back her memories doesn't equate in a power boost, it just means she has the ability to use her power much more efficiently and better, which in turn results in higher levels of effectiveness. Elizabeth with no memories should have the same maximum raw power as the Elizabeth with memories does.

    Plus, Elizabeth quite easily roasted Derriere's hand, since she was more focused on their morality than making sure her ark did damage, unlike Nerobasta who focused entirely on her ark whilst having Derriere in a very disadvantageous position, yet she still lost, which separates how much more powerful Elizabeth's ark was to Nerobasta's.

    -Her durability is strong than people pesume
    -She can still move very fast, we just don't know whether or not that corresponded to reaction speed.


    That scan still shows she can move as fast as second demon mark Meliodas (even if he was holding back, but so was she since she looked relaxed lol) and it makes no sense that she wouldn't be able to move that fast when inside combat.

    It's like saying Galan jumping 72 steps feat doesn't mean anything when inside combat when it did lol.

    I mean:

    -She used an ark technique in a non-lethal way, she never compressed the ark bubble or tried to make it explode when Estarossa was inside, and from Nerobasta's experience, that seems to be the way to hurt someone with an ark bubble. Plus, she exploded an ark bubble on Derriere's hand so she's already established the ability to do that, but she never did.

    -She never showed any intent in wanting to hurt or kill Estarossa, her primary objective was to protect Derriere.

    -If she was going in for damage or for the kill, literally any other ark would've been better, even the ark blast she demonstrated against Meliodas would've been better, but she opted for a non-lethal technique instead, which only supports the idea she had the intention to only move him away and not hurt him.

    -The AA's comment means nothing to me. Elizabeth was inside the the darkness, and they couldn't see what she was aiming to do and yet praised the very same ark. So to me they made expectations on the ark since they have a bias for it, hence the comment.

    Plus it is counter-intuitive: Why would you expect an ark used in a non-lethal way with no aggression behind it to do damage? It's like me coming at you with a knife, but end up using the blunt side in order to try to cut you, and THEN be surprised it didn't do squat and start praising you for evading damage.

    [​IMG]

    She was still conscious in the air because she was still flinching from the punch. Her body is tense = awake

    And if ''dramatic effect'' is my opinion, then why does everyone else start to accept that the Elizabeth slap Meliodas only happened because of comedy effect and that is fact?

    Plus, this moment doesn't really mean a lot to me, since:

    -Elizabeth couldn't even react to the punch since she was off-guard
    -It wasn't even a full-fight and as we know, it's much easier to knock someone out when they aren't expecting it vs when they are in battle mode.
    -Elizabeth can take a hit from 2 Gods and can still stand side to side with Meliodas (with same injuries) but can't withstand one small punch from a mid tier commandment? Nonsense, and while you think the God situation means nothing, it still proves her durability is much stronger than we think.

    It's not crystal clear when it your opinion.
    Also, you can still interact with the ark physically, how else do you explain the Indura being able to physically hold Elizabeth's drills of light and then be able to push them back with their hands?

    Or Galan physically holding Sariel's ark?

    And if we do the reverse, if you can't physically interact with light, then you can't with darkness either, but that's been disproved by Ludoshel holding darkness itself.

    It's ''crystal clear'' that she used her physical strength to escape the ark, and then because of her rage, darkness followed. If darkness was the true reason she escaped then we would've seen it surrounding her body when inside the ark, but we never did, all we saw was Derriere struggling physically because she was using her strength in order to try to escape.

    LOL what.
    Darkness is magic, and that's determined by the magic stat, hence why Derriere's magic is pittiful weak and why it's nonsense to argue she used it to break out of the ark.

    Nerobasta never overpowered Derriere's physical strength, because if that was the case she would've been able to contain Derriere, but failed to.

    All this picture tells me is that she wasn't expecting it to happen and didn't have enough time to react to it anyway due to her being shocked at understanding Elizabeth's true identity.

    1) Not enough time
    2) Elizabeth's light would've overpowered the darkness anyway.

    Not really. She made them heavily desperate and on the edge of being purified, if it was a 1v1, she would've succeeded in doing so. The Indura could barely handle one drill of light,so if she combined the two drills of light into a big and much more powerful one against one Indura, they would've been significantly overwhelmed and purified.

    Meliodas can low-mid diff 1v1 the Kings outside Assault Mode, but in a 1v2 against them when they are perfectly healthy, even he admitted he can't win, same thing here with Elizabeth vs Indura.

    He's still passive and not battle ready, so of course his defences are weaker.

    She's displayed more techniques because she has her memories, which gives her access to all her previous abilities, but that doesn't mean they are as powerful. Plus, Elizabeth herself stated her power isn't what it ''used'' to be, and since the awakened Elizabeth made this comment, it's obvious she was referring to Goddess vs human power.

    Also the AA making no distinction makes no sense. The demons or ten commandments never made a distinction from Assault Meliodas to 60k/second demon mark Meliodas when in his presence, until the Assault Mode came out of nowhere.

    Yes it was.

    -It didn't take Elizabeth much effort to use it.
    -It's not complex and I'm pretty sure any Goddess can use it, even someone like Nerobasta. An ark blast isn't complex.
    -It's not as powerful as her stronger techniques, such as Let There Be Light, and because of that, it's basic.
     
  2. Bøjan

    Bøjan Registered User

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    What ? :gwah
    That was for 32k base Meliodas, when he went to 56k he pretty much destroyed them and he was holding back. Now just his base 60k version is enough, Demon Mark and Assault Mode are just overkill :hee
     
  3. MrSchmitty7

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    It’s not just the royal family that has indura, Galand just said that they had masters, which means that they are controlled by several other individuals. It’d be weird to have the royal family be the literal owners of every domesticated indura.

    And we don’t know the full capacities of the graces as of yet. We’ve only seen the recently and we don’t know what other techniques they have. However Ludoshel showed no signs of running or backing down, suggesting that he still wasn’t out for the count. We know that he flees when he’s outclassed, as evident by the Zeldris interaction

    Also, just because an attack is easy to use, doesn’t make it basic. 11AM Escanor can use cruel sun with ease, but even he remarked that after the fighting ordeal he exerted himself to a degree. Divine 1,000 slashes is also a no strain technique, but that isn’t basic.
     
  4. OtakuFreak

    OtakuFreak Registered User

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    He still admitted that in his 56-60k PL form he was incapable of 1v2 the Kings, eventho 1v1 he could low-mid diff them quite quickly.

    This still doesn't mean the Goddesses can control Indura either.

    This is still a ''what if'' answer. I can't agree with a defense that is based on speculation, instead I can only look at what the AA's have currently shown with the graces, and when doing that Indura would still kill all the AA.

    The only AA to stand a chance against Indura is Mael, everyone other AA dies from current feats.

    Plus, Ludoshel would never retreat from Indura because he's cocky and stubborn. At least with Zeldris, he wasn't fully engaged and only attacked to notify the other of his presence.
     
  5. Commanderaxe

    Commanderaxe Registered User

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    But according to the databook wasnt her powerlevel pre memory 1925? Can a 1925 power level create such a large ark or even send Mel flying? I mean POL is potent against demons but THAT potent? idk.

    Sure she can move fast, but that could be anywhere from 50mph to 80mph, we have no clue the speed they were cruising at.

    Well they saw the ark and most likely recognized it's type. They wouldnt just praise the ark for no specific reason at all. Hell they are very specific on what they praise Elizabeth on, and to throw that line in their for...no reason? Isn't Nakaba's style. While I do admit she wasnt giving it her all, it definitely wasn't meant to simply do nothing offensive wise.

    Her eyes were closed, period, idk where you see flinching from tbh. Unless you mean her flailing as she falls because that's simply what happens when you're falling. The manga stated no where that she was knocked out from the fall. The manga displayed her eyes closed after the punch, and that's what readers can take from it. Also speaking of the gods again, that has to stop being referenced lol. As i've said before, the gods couldve used spells that weren't exactly blunt force. Winds that shredded their skin, light blades, etc. We don't know the context. As for Derriere's punch, sure she wasn't battle ready. i'll give you that. Granted lots of people other than Elizabeth has been caught off guard like Gloxinia for instance who's literally King's level of muscle, and they certainly weren't knocked out. Hell and if they were, then it definitely wasn't for that long. That's why at most i'd put her durability below commandment level for now.
     
  6. MrSchmitty7

    MrSchmitty7 Registered User

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    Well by that logic why are we speculating that Elizabeth can fight top tier characters when one punch is enough to knock her out. By that logic she’s on the bottom end of the spectrum for Taizai.

    And why would Ludoshel just go to notify Zeldris. Since when does he ever notify anyone?
     
  7. XXGenesis

    XXGenesis Registered User

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    Yes Elizabeth has the skills and abilities to effect the high tier, 2 Indra! And she's shown how useful her healing and how she can deal with the power of darkness. It is yet to be revealed exactly what kind of angel Elizabeth was or where she sat in it's hierarchy
     
  8. OtakuFreak

    OtakuFreak Registered User

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    Elizabeth without memories is 2k.

    But in the moment against Derriere she unconsciously summoned the power she currently has when awakened - there's no other reason to explain how she was able to injure a 50k+

    True, I'm just saying that Elizabeth isn't a slow character.

    I still think the comment makes no sense. Ark has already been established to bend to the user's will and even if Elizabeth uses an offensive ark, if she doesn't wish for it to hurt someone, it isn't going to do so.

    Agree to disagree on the Elizabeth unconscious thing then.

    And the God situation is still a feat for her.

    And as for the Gods battle, it still has significant relevance when talking about Elizabeth's PL. Naturally, the Gods are the most powerful characters in the series, and they were combining their powers to kill their children, so whilst I do think they were largely holding back on their powers, it's not enough to make it so their children would escape unscathed from any attack. Once again, they were punishing their children and were very pissed whilst doing it, so any attack they would throw Elizabeth and Meliodas way would be quite nasty.

    And it the context doesn't matter as much (it still does) when you compare the fact that Elizabeth and Meliodas were sustaining the same amount of damage, and were standing side by side to each other: which once again shows Elizabeth's durability isn't wet paper and is something much more powerful than most believe. It also doesn't matter what type of attack that the Gods throw their way, because if Elizabeth can sustain herself through it all then it shows she has good durability.

    It's why the ''one punch'' situation makes no sense. Elizabeth can stand before 2 Gods and sustain at least one hit with Meliodas in a 2v2 AND can avoid being killed by Estarossa, who deleted the AA's but can't resist a simple and ordinary punch lol? It's why I think it was done for dramatic effect and to plot the situation to remove Elizabeth, so the audience could get their fill of the AA vs TC without the annoying princess preaching about peace and leave in the middle of it.

    Because her magic can let her hurt top tier characters.

    And the one punch situation makes no sense (read above).

    He said his attack was a ''greeting''.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 13, 2018 ---
    1) Supreme Goddess
    2) Mael/Elizabeth (depends on time of day)
    3) Mael/Elizabeth
    4)Ludoshel
    5)Sariel/Tarmiel

    Fight me if you want guys, but by looking at feats, this hierarchy makes sense :cheez
     
  9. MrSchmitty7

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    It does make sense though. I can’t recall a single fight in Nanatsu where any character did well by not taking one punch. You’re only as strong as your weakest link and Elizabeth isn’t gonna win anything if she only has one shot then done. Gloxinia is a prime example of what low durability does to you. His magic was able to damage Mel, but physically he sucked. Until I see Elizabeth get better durability feats, she’s less than 50K.
     
  10. OtakuFreak

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    No it doesn't make sense. A character can survive standing in front of 2 Gods and from their throat being crushed immediately in a weaker form but can't resist a simple punch when they are in their prime?

    Nakaba had to write the plot so Elizabeth was removed from the situation for a little bit, and what a better way to do that by having her knocked out when peace negotiating whilst being passive and unprepared for the punch coming her way.

    And it makes no further sense either. The punch didn't even do any damage yet it knocks her unconscious??

    Plus, just because Elizabeth doesn't have the best physical stats in the series doesn't mean we should put her down. If her magic is top tier, then why are we going to place her at the bottom of the barrel? Is magic irrelevant now and just physical strength matters?
     
  11. MrSchmitty7

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    Haven't seen the gods fight so doesn't count if we're playing by only observable rules. Plus if you examine Drole and Glox vs Mel, Drole took more hits, yet glox looked just as worn out as him.

    Also you don't have to be bleeding to be knocked unconscious. Unconsciousness is caused by the brain rattling inside the skull.

    As to why we cannot use it; because there has never been an instance in this manga where someone who was op in one section, but weak in another has ever won a fair ight. So to make an exception for elizabeth seems bad to me
     
  12. OtakuFreak

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    It still counts to a degree because if proves that Elizabeth isn't some gentle flower that will wither and die in one-shot, which some people love to push the narrative of it being true, when it really isn't.

    So with that premise in mind we can't take any of the battles made by OP physical fighters (with UP magic) serious right? But yet, people seem to be perfectly fine with accepting anything Meliodas does as fair and fine even if his magic is pitifully weak outside Assault Mode, but when the tables are turned no one can accept that? Seems unfair.
     
  13. MrSchmitty7

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    Again if we're going to go by the fact that we can't rely on assumption, then the same should apply for Elizabeth. If we can't assume that the graces can do more, then I cannot assume what damage Elizabeth sustained.

    Well no, we can take the other types of battles because they've won time and time again. When was the last time an OP Magician with low tier physical feats ever won a fair fight? Merlin only managed to defeat a divided up gray road and some fodder holy knights from part one. If an OP magician with low strength somehow wins a decent fight I'd be more than willing to count it, but as of now it's never happened, they've always been bodied
     
  14. Commanderaxe

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    Only explanation is that ark is just that potent. We have no reason to believe she suddenly unconsciously awakened all of that power without a hint of memories. It goes against everything we know of the curse

    Compared to the top tiers at full speed, from what we've seen, she's below them. Against regular holy knights then yes she'd be decently fast.

    Perhaps they saw her put a lot of force into it and commented on it's strength.

    Well like I said, they couldve put a lot of force into it, just in a different matter that allowed her to tank it, such as non-blunt spells. Much easier to stay conscious from a knife to the abdomen than a hard hit to the head. Also like Schmitty said, if you look at the Dolor and Glox fight, Dolor took far more hits, yet they both looked equally damage. This is why context is extremely important. If a 300 pound guy and a 90 pound dude walked into a room to fight 100 bodybuilders and they both came out a bloody mess, you'd assume that they both got equal amounts of beating, but not necessarily. Not necessarily at all. Meliodas could've taken more hits, Meliodas could've shielded her from certain attacks, She could've used shields while he took more direct hits, etc etc.
     
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  15. sobreno

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    We have even Hawk's PL when he uses his transpork, that show that Nakaba doesn't give a damn about Elizabeth's PL.
     
  16. Undina

    Undina Registered User

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    "Invigorate" dispels negative effects of a substance over the body, Elizabeth used it to help Ban regen faster, she used "Tranquilise" to take away Mera's miasma:facepalm So far, Ludoshel has never used Tranquilise, nor is there a sign he can.
    1. Wasn't it noted and partially shown that Elizabeth stole literal armies of demons without any need for violence when in goddess form, then sent them packing home, all re-educated? Last time I checked, humans could compete with fairy, goddess and giant fodder mixed together, but that was during the AHW, when everyone had to know how to fight to survive. And Elaine was merely using her magic to persuade the forest to react, as far as we know, thanks to the Fairy Tree at its center, the forest itself is magicked to react to intruders and not many can enter it. The Red Demon still overpowered her as she only could think to turn and try to warn Ban about its 2 hearts. She remembered her serious Zephyr spells only after being revived by Mera.
    Also, an awakened Elizabeth who is still nerfed by her forced human biology still managed to make part of the demon army give up even though they were under "absolute orders" from the Masters. I'd find it absurd for that to only be an expression, when one of the Masters was a few chapters before shown to be able to cast a spell named exactly that. And Elizabeth was doing that while also keeping the army at full hp. Unless the literal translation would say "direct orders from the Masters". But in the phrasing of those who described that situation it still sounded like she had to override magic, not fear, from demons in that respect.
    2. It's speculation, nowhere in the manga do we have such a statement, their Ark may be >PoD, but there's no distinction made between the different applications of Ark. So far, all purification spells look like simple debuffers that still rely on their wielder's magic stat and or quality of magic ability, but, if Elizabeth's HA would only rely on hax, then her character build would clash with Merlin's, whose advantages are highly dependent on how she applies her own, unfair hax ability.And it still looks like you have to mold an ark's effect to your will, considering that there is the situation where the AAs/Ludo held hundreds of fodder demons hostage in a huge ark he later blew up, but given that they'd been there for days and it was still slowly chipping away at the demons' bodies instead of having killed them already, it means that despite the size it could take, it can be controlled to do less damage/not at all.
    2.5 What Gowther did to Escanor/Galand could only be marginally compared with what Elizabeth does when "talking spirit to spirit to demons" or likely when she was struggling to keep AM Mel subdued(even though she declared that in her current state she likely can't stop/purify him, ergo, she's clearly nerfed even when "awake"), not with any of her physically perceptible purification skills
    3. I've explained before how animals functioning on mere instincts react when more possible opponents enter the fray, that, honestly, makes more sense than the typical "battles" in this series where participants casually stop or withhold attacks while bantering away(see Escanor VS Estarossa/AM Mel and many others, who most of the times, simply stop/take breaks from fighting when delivering lines, unless you're Monspeet and telling your opponent how to defeat you). The explanation can very well be in her also trying that soul to soul "taming", but that would still place her too high on a versatility and power level for your taste. Never mind that she just provided a shocker by merely coming to face Mel in that 271 flashback, which may or may not have continued with a fight between the two, or she simply used the same abstract skill alluded to in the S&D battle with the demon army. In either case, I don't buy that she simply made him realise he has hormones and that was what made him change. Nakaba doesn't build these couples like that. So here's to fair chance she may, in fact, be in his power range as that encounter was shown to be direct and solo, for each of the 2.
    4. Chapter and page where that was stated. Her HA is very much physical and it pushed first the Indura, then the PoD out of the bodies as if it were a tumor. The Indura also interacted physically with the drills, that's why I'm often using that attack to argue her magic, when properly used, can make up for and counter from her opponents physical strength/pressure. She simply needs to be truly full power and have her mind in the game.
    5. Matrona is fodder when compared to gods and demons in matter of magic, she may know the Dance, but isn't naturally talented towards properly mastering it, the way Diane is hyped to.
    While Elizabeth was shown, in both most explored incarnations, to wield ability and skill not only very potent, but covering more than Ark. When she cast "The Passion of Jonah" or what's it called, she literally also summoned waves she had to keep herself and Derrieri afloat in. You know, like the waves Tarmiel's Ocean brings about.
    The matter of the wings was already debated to death and beyond, but I think it's due notice that Elizabeth has been using quite strong skills in a forced physical form which, according to Sariel's explanation about goddess/demon souls, they don't quite agree with human biology. And while Elizabeth's soul isn't directly damaging her body, the fact that Sar and Tar seem to have powered up when they, for emergency reasons, restored their actual bodies complete with the physical wings canonically correlated to a goddess' power(level) implies that even if "awakened" Elizabeth has access to all her abilities, they'd be weaker than before due to lack of her true body which can funnel more power.
    The moment Elizabeth grows them back I think it's safe to say she will have reached her prime again, which even in the flashback, didn't look like her full potential. I'm still convinced she had so much trouble to cast that first shown HA because she was also tapping into power she hadn't yet completely mastered/developed. And until you show me that updated volume page where Elizabeth's "light wings" were erased due to being an artistic "mistake", they still happened.
    Dude, how many times must you be told purification is a high quality debuffer which was used as such by most characters minus squinty?! The AAs mostly rely on their damaging Arks and Graces cause, as shown, those abilities can be used to straight up kill and torture to death. Yes, I'm happy that Sariel and Tarmiel are supporting Elizabeth, but that doesn't change the fact that during the flashback arc they were actually trying to kill or torture the demons with the way they employed their skills and abilities and even now they're going straight for painful damage. To debuff then kill demons is more merciful, but also far more effective, not to mention more useful in their casting a certain image of themselves in front of the allies.
    Ludoshel wouldn't have been branded a traitor, simply for the fact that would've been going smart about the fight(as some fans of the "plan" idea like to overhype him as) and debuffed the Indura then killed them. But the chapter as it is implies he couldn't do that, period. Elizabeth was killed then cursed for allowing the enemy to survive besides entering a romantic relationship with a creature deemed inferior(if only in social/cultural/biological aspects) to her clan. Not for her non-traditional way of stopping them.
    Being a Physical God in Taizai only comes from superiority in development(biological and the power sort), the goddess, fairy and demon clans are so far alien(to "our" realm) life-forms led by incredibly powerful/evolved members of their species.
    Humans(druids) in this case can use off-shoots of the goddess ability to purify and it's obvious their Purge is inferior to the purification skills which have been actually displayed, so far, only by Elizabeth, in the GC.
    According to Monspeet there is a plausible hit and miss chance at genetic inheritance of predisposition for very impressive magic or power(overall) development. 2/3 of the DK's offspring have the potential of properly taking over his power and status as a god. Seeing as so far Elizabeth is the only offspring of the SD and she was matchingly worthy of indefinite anger from mommy, just like the DK's only acknowledged heir was from him, it makes sense, along with her other feats, to have the similar 2/3 odds to having been born a genius, not the 1/3 for average/epic failure.
    Estarossa claims to have wanted to be the strongest just like Mel, Zeldris was taking seriously not only his training but also punishment for when he failed, because he had a cause. Where is that proof that Mel trained more/better than Zel(at least), when Mel was developing only out of inertia(as he claimed in his most recent reveal about his past)?! And where is that proof that Elizabeth had no training whatsoever, when it's been rubbed in our faces, time and time again, that it was her philosophy that keeps her from fighting in the war, not the lack of ability or natural power/talent?! And don't try to twist it against me, the AAs keep expecting her to use deadly skills on their opponents, while mysteriously ignoring her staunch mentality of trying to save everyone, although it was explained again in 261, by Sariel himself, so, I'm with Otaku on this, it seems weird they'd just expect her to all of a sudden go murderous even when she decided to fight. She never fought traditionally, but then again, never did Merlin and Gowther(not when it mattered).
    Also, what's this deal about randomly deciding that Mael and everyone else only ever praised her "nature" even within the context of a chapter where she surprised everyone by carrying 2 impressive tasks, simultaneously, in a very subtle way and all that while being nerfed. Again, in the following chapters, Sariel and Tarmiel go and prove and explain that human bodies can't fully harmonise with the power a goddess(especially a high ranking one) or demon soul bring about and the body even gets affected by long exposure to the alien soul's power, through either decay(speedy aging-up counts as that) or assimilation of some of the ability the "guest" has. But those features matter less in that respect than the fact that Sariel and Tarmiel had to force their recovery of true bodies(complete with physical wings) to properly go and take on the "upgraded" Estarossa.
    Gowther went against Galand's Spirit, not full power, and he did so sneakily, Elizabeth confronted the Indura head on, she confronted Estarossa, Derrieri and even the ark-slap she delivered directly and you're actually going at apples and oranges again.
    What are you going at?! By picking on the way they were named, Mael would still > Escanor, because logic says the Sun is the source of the energy it releases, while Sunshine is the superficial, visible perception of the same energy, from afar, even, where you can't experience the true level of danger exposure to it entails. I admit my English fails me from time to time as well...but not to this extent.
    You realise you're clinging to speculation by claiming that IF Ludoshel got to go all out he'd have better results?! I'd understand if you made these claims after Ludoshel at least single-handedly defeated Indura Zeldoris(which I find unlikely, with the signals we're getting regarding the direction of the story for him: Mel really wants to make up to him, Zel's hailed to be his own sort of genius in the DC and he's the likeliest future DK, if there's ever gonna be another one). But you're making random boasting claims about a character who, as far as we know, only had 1 minute of mimicking the SD's power, not surpassing her, and not even in its entirety, otherwise, anyone from the senior group would've figured out long ago that The One in his "invincibility" should be able to break the curses if he had access to that much power.
    Elizabeth in the AHW was part of the Royal Squad, with the rest of the royals, including the guy "all the goddesses" supposedly "cowered in fear from" and 3 AAs felt uncomfortable to take on, at least, even when together...oh, wait, as far as 271 goes, Elizabeth was never afraid of him. Nor had any reasons to. And although Prime Meliodas found the war tedious, it wasn't out of any visible compassion for the enemy, he hardly showed any to his family.
    You guys could argue all you want that the OP members of the 2 strongest clans would either praise or be impressed with her for her "nature", but I've never heard of one powerful person, one who values and takes pride in their power, to find a true reason to praise another being for something other than what they cherish most, i.e. "power". I'd understand if it was only googly eyed Meliodas who had been "tamed" by anyone else making such claims cause he doesn't see her objectively, but Mael, Derrieri(@FKS, really sorry to bother you, maybe you've explained it before and it eludes me, but did Derrieri comment that Elizabeth's power in 262 is truly "silly", or anything else derogatory?), Gowther, Meliodas himself often praised her, generally speaking, and Mel once cheered her up telling it to her face(the moron, going against his own plan) that she's got some crazy power he's sure of. Turns out, she's a legendary demon tamer and not by mere nakama speech, she was time and time again claimed to possess a too bright light, a mysterious charisma that got everyone to love her etc, if nothing in the range of making her a blood warrior. The way she gets her feats doesn't actually speak against her level of power as long as they're against big players. And the Indura which she mostly faced off with(she carried the most of the confrontations regardless of your what ifs) are still it, big players.
    Where was she shown in a 1 VS 1 battle with any Commandment for you to draw such an extreme conclusion?! Since we're dealing in facts, show me chapter and page where she did have to fight "one of the weakest commandments" by herself and lost. And no, events where we can only run on speculation don't count.
    Derrieri was either Combo Star attacking Zaratras(when Elizabeth did use the ark on her) or rapidly reaching for Elizabeth to punch her when Mel practically shoved Elizabeth back while sliding in between the 2 to punch Derrieri away, he himself barely made it in time, seeing as her darkness covered fist almost reached Elizabeth's head around him. Yes, you can say that because Elizabeth provided the informational shock Derrieri was caught off-guard, she still used the type of power/ability that convinced Derrieri she was the same woman who faced her during the "hostages" incident.
    So Chandler is not a high-tier character anymore?! The fact that in a few moments not only she heals herself(while in her human body) from Increase multiplied maybe several times over by FC, keeps holding Mel's PoD at minimum possible development and then pulls an aoe full heal on the whole party is again something to ignore just because no one has yet said that she's at least one of the most powerful members of her clan, but maybe 2nd only to her mother? And don't give me the Mael lines, he's only ever been hyped as the most powerful of the 4 AAs, never as the most powerful representative of their clan and has been reported to have been praised Elizabeth himself.
    Those lines about the war after his death don't make him the greatest wielder of power on the battlefront either, they only still make him the most powerful available with a similar view on means to victory like the rest of the AAs, given that Meliodas and Elizabeth were still mixed in, but realistically unaccountable for due to their personal conflict with their parents at the time and their personal perspective about how the conflict was to end. When philosophy and its promotion get to interfere with the methods of power display, you can't use it to pass the power for non-existent when it's only unavailable.
    If you're gonna pick a bone with me, mention me properly! You still insinuate things that don't fly over my head every time, as some of you might expect, plus, you don't need to always say it in full words, often you can send a message simply by backing up another person making crazy claims. I'm not the only one around here who can boast them.
    You simply implied she has nothing to really help her against a non-demon, but then again, while we did see both her and the AAs wrecking nature along with the demons they were opposing, we never saw a high level goddess VS a non-demon. So, why on earth are you even bringing it up?! This isn't the thread for fanon battles:cop
    Ironically, though, Elizabeth in human body shrugged off a FC amplified Increase attack from True Form Chastiefol during the group fight with Chandler, maintained whatever skill she was using to try and ward off Mel's development and a few moments later she pulled what some gamers dubbed her "Heroes never die" cast.
    So Rudeucielly, again speaking behind my back! Are you sure I wasn't accusing you of backing up others' extreme ideas by merely agreeing with their posts?! Or general tirade?! Because that passively makes you a holder of most of their standards and principles, if you don't clearly point out where the difference in opinion lies.
    And the way he chose to draw it only brought up minimal irony in Meliodas' reaction from the floor("Did she really go and use her power on me?!" It doesn't look at all like the surprise of learning for the first time she was capable of that level of power, but doubt that she would've used it on him. Still doesn't change the fact that while he was taken by surprise, his resistance didn't magically drop to accommodate her were she to do it)
    What ark attack on a non-demon are you basing that on? Or what numbers?
    Is that why she did away with them? Is she a worthy source of magic casting evaluation as a mainly physical fighter? Not to mention one who had already witnessed her long time fight partner using supposedly better quality ones to no avail? Cause I can actually see her anger talking and she better get it under lid if she wants to face him again.
    The only time she was taken by surprise in a situation she didn't acknowledge as a fight(you can call her naive for that, but she was still trying to talk Derrieri into not fighting while the latter wanted to kill her, there's no way she only wanted to hurt Elizabeth minimally, Derrieri is a woman of action upon emotion). The times Elizabeth was attacked when she was acknowledging conflict, other than Mel's resurrection scene cause he had to make an entrance:rolleyes:, she put up resistance.
    But since the main subject was Estarossa faring against Elizabeth's Ark
    [​IMG]
    :cheez. It becomes apparent that Elizabeth was actually playing ball with Sar and Tar, seeing as they appeared behind Estarossa as he formed his PoD wings to go back to her.
    Which if true makes his case worse and hers better, if she toppled AM Mel with an ark-slap, but you might end up on a stake if you dare say even Elizabeth's ark can go anywhere near The One's level, I've claimed much less about nerfed Elizabeth and they grabbed for the pitchforks.:teehee
    Is there any need to when she did it herself? When we can clearly do while comparing the effect she had 3000 years ago on demon armies and the paltry effect on part of it in the S&D VS the army preceding Derrieri and Estarossa?!
    Is there any need to fully state she's literally weakened when the AAs explain that human biology doesn't work right for the extent of power a soul of their quality brings over?! And that outside the circumstances of punishment by curse?!Even if it's in practice her body, when in conjunction with the fact that, starting with Mel, people note that the biggest difference is her lack of wings(which by Word of God are a goddess' markers of power) it's obvious that even if she gets access to all her abilities and knowledge on how to use them, the raw power input in those skills would be lower to what she had in her goddess body.
    Her eyes were scrunched closed, period, that's when people forcibly and semi-consciously force them shut out of self-delusion it can protect from the incoming impact with whatever comes their way.:rolleyes:
    So Indura are now at the bottom spectrum of Taizai?!?:oooh:yodawg:rofl:rofl:rofl
    How about that time she stayed conscious and self-healed in a jiffy from a "knife" to the head?!:heh Cause I recall people who expected her to die from it reaching her brain:fail
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  17. MrSchmitty7

    MrSchmitty7 Registered User

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    The repelling of demons had nothing to do with her power. Goddesses can naturally brainwash individuals and in this case Elizabeth's powers have so far only worked on gray demons at best. Elaine as far as I can tell has no confirmed power that can control nature as so far only someone with disaster can do that. The most she has been shown to do is move branches. The reason she lost to the demon was because of Ban and her distraction because of him. When she's not distracted she can effortlessly overpower two Holy Knights (The latter which Elizabeth had to be saved from by Elaine and has a power level 1,000 points higher than a red demon in her base,

    Yes there is though. Monspeet has stated that light naturally dissolves darkness, yet he has said nothing of darkness being able to dissolve light. Diane also specifically brought up Meliodas' race when he went against light. Demons have a type of disadvantage against light and most of the community agrees with this last time it was brought up. Also those debuff spells you draw parallel to don't deal with physical defense. Gowther's magic for instance can only be countered by the spirit stat, so by this logic it makes no sense to compare a spell that was used to attack a physical body vs a spell that attacked inner darkness.

    Also, Elizabeth's attack is comparable to Gowther because the attack didn't attack their physical bodies. If it did, Monspeet and Derieri would have gigantic
    holes through their bodies and demons cannot heal wounds that large when they are knocked out.

    Names aren't indiciations of power. By your logic Zeldris should be the most OP character in the series because his magic is named "god". I'm simply stating there could be a possibility that Escanor's grace has a diiference than Mael's.
    Diane should also be stronger than Drole with her magic, because Creations sounds much cooler than Ground

    Resistances do drop when you aren't in a fighting situation. It's already been confirmed that when you are prepared to fight, your power level increases. Plus if not being prepared has nothing to do with a fight, then by that logic Elizabeth has the durability of one Derieri base punch. Like I said earlier, Meliodas has taken hits much stronger than an ark slap and has come out unscathed. A simple slap that supposedly floors him compared to other attacks makes no sense. Even Zeldris and Estarossa have taken attacks that surpass Zeldris' DK magic and have come out unscathed. Mel can likewise do the same because his durability is greater than theirs, and as confirmed by PreMel, Elizabeth doesn't have magic that is on par with Zeldris' borrowed power.

    It's not supposed to make sense, I was using Otaku's logic of only going by confirmed wins or losses. So really who are you laughing at? Their logic? Thought the goddess fans were on the same side lol

    As for Elizabeth not being afraid of Mel, the reasons she wasn't afraid of him is because he never attacked her. Once he saw her he dropped his darkness and stood in awe of her beauty or whatever that caught his attention. It's the same way with how everyone else is afraid of Escanor, but his friends (or most of them) don't fear him because they know that he won't attack them. Plus Elizabeth is stupid by her own admission, this is coming from the girl that tried to take on 4 of the 10 commandments by herself. She's a diplomat, whether it works out or not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  18. Commanderaxe

    Commanderaxe Registered User

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    lmaooo you just proved me right once again. Accuse me of shit I didn't say. Here was my exact quote

    "Well true. I meant her ark would probably damage him if it hit, but alas he's too fast. I do think a couple of the low tier commandments she might be able to put down if she plays smart like Fraudrin or Grayroad. Then again Fraudrin was able to tank ark before. Damn it's crazy to say she cant take out even the weakest commandments though. If we go any lower that would put her at around holy knight level in terms of fighting lmao that's a bit harsh"

    I stated it would be quite a battle but she can win if she plays smart. Although even the likes of Fraudrin has tanked an incredibly huge ark before so it wouldnt be as easy as it might seem. But i later followed up by saying "its crazy to to say she cant take out the weakest commandment, and that putting her any lower would be harsh." So no, I don't have to show you a page where she fought one of the weakest commandments and lost, because I never stated she lost, nor did I ever state she would against the weakest ones. Seriously, read shit properly lol

    [​IMG]

    Derriere allowed Elizabeth to finish off an entire sentence,before doing well, anything. She could've kicked, used her other hand, etc. I mean youre telling me that the same person with a physical power level massively higher than Galan, a dude who could move hundreds of miles in seconds, couldnt attack someone while they were finishing an entire sentence? Lol ok.

    You mean chandlers skin minion that would've most likely killed her had Diane not interfered? Sure she survived a slice to the head, not bad lol. Also healed herself from Increase? It burned her skin, it would be sad if she couldnt heal that. And yes she held Mel's POD and healed the entire party, we've established she's great at white magic. She's maybe 2nd to her mother? Got a scan for that? You talk of manga facts rather than hypotheticals, then go right around and spew hypotheticals. My goodness

    OK, for one, it wasnt necessary to mention you as ive shown above, you do it constantly and honestly it's just not worth mentioning you directly. I was just telling Otaku that the both of you have a tendency to do it. Also what are you talking about, what things do I insinuate, and what types of crazy claims do I back up? Anyway, she shrugged off an FC amplified Increase? Her skin was burning and searing. Unless your shrugged off means took some damage but didnt die. My definition of shrugged off is tank without a scratch.

    [​IMG]


    From just one of them no less.

    But yes she healed them, she's a powerful healer after all.

    I don't always agree with every single thing that I press "like" on, but if I agree with 90% of someone's post i'll like it. I don't need to point out the parts I disagree with except for in my own messages.

    I'm basing that on the fact that ark was meant to "counteract the properties of darkness". I think it's fair enough to say that ark considering it's a power that specifically counters darkness, doesnt have the advantage it would have over beings without darkness. That's not much of a stretch is it?

    Gloxinia was COMPLETELY taken by surprise by Escanor's attack. A fairy with King's exact body type and strength stat of literally 0. Yet despite the extreme state he was in, he remained consciousness enough to cast drop of life. So Gloxinia, who took an attack that not only caused an immense crater, but also heavily crippled 2 commandments, remained conscious, yet Elizabeth was knocked out by a non pod empowered punch. So which one is it. Are you going to say that the punch hit harder than Escanor's attack, are you going to say that Gloxinia was "totally ready" for that attack, or are you going to say that Gloxinia's durability is higher than Elizabeth's? Either answer i'm going to have a field day with, so go on i'll enjoy this one.

    lol. Wat. People who are trying to protect themselves, from incoming attacks, brace themselves. Natural physical response.Fist closed, body curled, preparing for impact. She sure is preparing for impact here right :derp

    [​IMG]

    Yeaaaaaa, she got knocked the f*ck out.

    Doesnt look like it reached the brain honestly. Also to me it looks like she briefly lost conciousness.

    [​IMG]

    But either way, yes her healing is impressive as we know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018 at 2:10 AM
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  19. sobreno

    sobreno Registered User

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    Ludoshel used invigorate on himself, that is a basic spell and he is an Archangel, the highest grade of a Goddess lol.
    He could uses any spell, you are a downplayer as always.

    The chapter as it is implied he couldn't do that? Where lol, he wanted to kill them, not to save them from certain death due to their transformation.
     
  20. OtakuFreak

    OtakuFreak Registered User

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    Assumption? It's fact that Elizabeth sustained the same amount of damage as Meliodas against the Gods, Nakaba showed us unlike the grace situation which is just Ludoshel going ''well.. better go all the way''

    This is nonsense really.

    If a character has top tier magic power then they should still be considered top tier themselves because their magic is one of the best in the series.

    Ah yes, because ark's ''potent'' and elemental advantage against demonic beings allows an individual to compensate for a power gap of 50,000.

    Makes perfect sense right? How ever did the AA's get fodderized by the Indura? Or start fearing Meliodas because apparently ark's ''potentness'' can bridge a large gap in power?

    I wonder how there was ever a balance of power between the Goddesses and Demons when fodder can apparently mortally harm demon elites :cheez (?)

    It's obvious that Elizabeth's ark had the power behind it to be able to affect Derriere, and the only explanation you can pull to understand the situation is to determine that she unconsciously summoned her true power in a moment of distress, and this is supported by the fact that Nerobasta, who is definitely 2k+ in PL to Elizabeth without memories was unable to mortally harm Derriere.

    All she did was move her arm to the side, it looked like she hardly put effort into the ark.

    Their comment still makes no sense regardless of the narrative one can go for.

    But we did get context tho, NOT everything, but largely some to draw some conclusions.

    Nakaba highlighted that this was a 2v2 battle, shown by the Gods coming together even though they are mortal enemies, and with their final attack being a combination. It's even supported further by Meliodas and Elizabeth standing side by side with each other, looking desperate, and because of this it's very likely they would've worked together in their best efforts to avoid death.

    Plus the idea that Meliodas would compensate for Elizabeth is redundant when you consider that Meliodas commented that the both of them together were incapable of doing anything, so how does Meliodas shield or compensate for Elizabeth during that battle against 2 Gods?

    And Meliodas in his potential 90-100k (second demon mark form) state was completely overwhelmed by the Gods and sustained heavy damage (and probably couldn't do anything to stop/reduce it) but apparently the Goddess Elizabeth was able to keep up with sustaining damage with him, even though everyone keeps arguing she's as durable as wet paper.

    I'm not saying this moment means Goddess Elizabeth durability = Second Demon Mark Meliodas Level of durability

    But I am saying it definitely proves she is much more durable than people give her credit for. In her prime, I'd definitely say at the minimum her durability should be mid-top tier commandment level.

    Because Elizabeth's backstory hasn't been revealed, neither has the full extent of her powers etc

    Literally just be patient.

    Elizabeth has still shown better ark usage by demonstrating that she has a higher variety of spells + Ludoshel was going to die to Indura lol
     
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