One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

@Hannibal Psyche could you tell me what chapter is that panel from?

Thing is, in Japanese, they don't say "a couple", but rather "a few people". So I highly doubt it can be concluded in a way that Moriah was only talking about Zoro and Sanji from that line alone.

At the very least, allow me to check the chapter for further clarification.

Chapter 481 or 482.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Chapter 481 or 482.

Ok, so I checked the chapter and it seems that what Moriah says is literally the following:

なかなか筋のいい部下も揃ってる

You also have some strong crew members under your command.

And quite honestly both of you could be correct in a sense, but from what it seems Moria does in fact imply that there are a few strong members, but not all of the strawhat pirates are worthy of praise.

From that line alone though it's impossible to deduce if Moriah thinks of, say, Franky as a strong underling...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Ok, so I checked the chapter and it seems that what Moriah says is literally the following:

なかなか筋のいい部下も揃ってる

You also have some strong crew members under your command.

And quite honestly both of you could be correct in a sense, but from what it seems Moria does in fact imply that there are a few strong members, but not all of the strawhat pirates are worthy of praise.

From that line alone though it's impossible to deduce if Moriah thinks of, say, Franky as a strong underling...

It still remains with the original point, only a few of the SHs are regarded as strong and quality of Shadow determines the strength he can acquire. Could even be he acquired some of the shadows of Kaido's crew members to put up a fight. At this point we just have to accept Moriah must have been strong enough to take on Kaido and we have to give the benefit of the doubt to methods that make this possible as opposed to blindly doubting for the sake of it.

 

[nik87]

I don't know where this idea of Moriah being strong enough to take on Kaido came from, it makes no sense at all. All we know is that he lost to Kaido and all his crew was killed, that's one-sided as it gets, nothing implies he was strong enough to take Kaido on.

We know that Moriah himself is quite weak and relies on strength of others and powers himself up with shadows of others. Even with all the shadows he had available when he fought against SH he lost to gear 2/3 Luffy which is nothing compared to Yonko's level.

Moriah says that if he had Oars with Luffy's shadow he wouldnt have lost to Kaido, imo, thats just his wishful thinking. Oars with Luffy's shadow and operated by Moriah was defeated by pre-time skip Strawhats which again are nothing compared to Yonko. We saw that Oars Jr was taken out with ease in MF war.
Unless Moriah had Yonko quality shadow his chances of taking on Kaido are non-existent imo.

Plot twist, Moriah reappears with bodies of Ace and Whitebeard.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

It still remains with the original point, only a few of the SHs are regarded as strong and quality of Shadow determines the strength he can acquire. Could even be he acquired some of the shadows of Kaido's crew members to put up a fight. At this point we just have to accept Moriah must have been strong enough to take on Kaido and we have to give the benefit of the doubt to methods that make this possible as opposed to blindly doubting for the sake of it.

Then you probably shouldn't insinuate that people besides you have "poor comprehension" without being 100% sure that you are not mistaken yourself. You used that specific line to support your claim, insisting that Moriah was specifically alluding to Zoro and Sanji, which we can't know for sure.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Then you probably shouldn't insinuate that people besides you have "poor comprehension" without being 100% sure that you are not mistaken yourself. You used that specific line to support your claim, insisting that Moriah was specifically alluding to Zoro and Sanji, which we can't know for sure.

Well, given the panels we have, it's poor comprehension. Even if he didn't say couple and some, it'd include Zoro and Sanji, that much is a fact. The criteria he's using to judge is strength. Unless you want to claim Zoro and Sanji are not the strongest after Luffy, then it's just pure absurdity at that point.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Well, given the panels we have, it's poor comprehension. Even if he didn't say couple and some, it'd include Zoro and Sanji, that much is a fact. The criteria he's using to judge is strength. Unless you want to claim Zoro and Sanji are not the strongest after Luffy, then it's just pure absurdity at that point.

First you and Shasha23 argue about whether Moriah was talking about the crew in a more or less general sense or whether he was referring to Zoro and Sanji only. And then you say it's not that important. I don't get you, people.

If that's so unimportant then don't put so much emphasis on it, lol.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

First you and Shasha23 argue about whether Moriah was talking about the crew in a more or less general sense or whether he was referring to Zoro and Sanji only. And then you say it's not that important. I don't get you, people.

If that's so unimportant then don't put so much emphasis on it, lol.

Then you didn't read properly or understand the emphasis at all buddy.

The original said couple, your translation doesn't say otherwise because it's still referring to a limited number of the crew. That's the point. Fact is Sanji and Zoro would be included because they're the strongest in the crew.

It doesn't take away from my original point. Moriah deeming only a few of Luffy's members strong implies his crew had similar.

Maybe if you had any idea of the context and read properly, you'd see the emphasis really wasn't on Zoro and Sanji, but rather the fact Moriah referred to a limited few in the crew. So, whether it's a couple or a few, while it still includes Zoro and Sanji, the emphasis is on the minority which you clearly didn't grasp reading this at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2018 ---

Nope, not at all.

Couple buddy. Not the entire crew was commended.

 

[Eigengrau]

I don't know where this idea of Moriah being strong enough to take on Kaido came from, it makes no sense at all. All we know is that he lost to Kaido and all his crew was killed, that's one-sided as it gets, nothing implies he was strong enough to take Kaido on.

He might've been on Kaido's level at the time when they fought all those years ago. Kaido wasn't a Yonko yet, was he?

I mean, just like Shanks at some point had his arm bitten off there might've been a point where Moriah and Kaido had similar power levels, and then Kaido went on to become stronger/a Yonko, while Moriah didn't, just like current Shanks would probably never have a limb torn off by a Sea King ever again.

Characters and their strengths/powerlevels evolve, while others kinda get stuck, such as Moriah. Dude developed a grudge/ptsd or whatever and he relied heavily on making zombies and stealing shit instead of trying to move past the shit to become stronger.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Then you didn't read properly or understand the emphasis at all buddy.

The original said couple, your translation doesn't say otherwise because it's still referring to a limited number of the crew. That's the point. Fact is Sanji and Zoro would be included because they're the strongest in the crew.

It doesn't take away from my original point. Moriah deeming only a few of Luffy's members strong implies his crew had similar.

Maybe if you had any idea of the context and read properly, you'd see the emphasis really wasn't on Zoro and Sanji, but rather the fact Moriah referred to a limited few in the crew. So, whether it's a couple or a few, while it still includes Zoro and Sanji, the emphasis is on the minority which you clearly didn't grasp reading this at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2018 ---

He simply praised some of them. You're reading too much into it.

That ain't enough to deduce that he had a crew formidable enough to take on Kaido. Unless you're saying that at the time the rivalry took place Kaido was much much weaker than he is right now, which is very unlikely.

Even a hundred of pre-timeskip Zoro-level fighters wouldn't be enough to defeat someone like Jack (quantity doesn't matter when there's no quality), let alone Kaido. And to think that Moriah had crew members/zombies much stronger than Zoro/Luffy back in the day, while we know exactly how strong present Moriah is...

Also, go talk to your mom using such an outrageously rude manner of speech.

PS: Also, as I already mentioned, both you and Shasha23 could be right. Because it's just how the Japanese language is. It tends to be very 'generally speaking'-esque. That line of contention that we're discussing can be understood differently. The context that you appeal to so frequently indeed matters. Which is perhaps even more apparent to Japanese readers. That particular sentence could very well be taken as "among other things you have some strong members too". It's just a general way of saying you're not absolutely hopeless, but that power still ain't enough for the new world. I honestly think you're reading too much into it.

And as @nik87 rightly remarked, Moriah'' crew got annihilated, it was in fact very one sided. Supernovas are rivals too, but you wouldn't seriously compare Bonney to Luffy strength-wise.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

He simply praised some of them. You're reading too much into it.

Nope, that was my point.

"Some" being the keyword.

That ain't enough to deduce that he had a crew formidable enough to take on Kaido.

Yes it is.

Assuming you have any recollection of what the Manga says:

The fact is he took on Kaido.

Point is he said he also had a talented powerful crew. Only way that could have realistically been pulled off is by use of his crew's shadows or that of his opponents.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

The fact is he took on Kaido.

Are we seriously gonna take that random guy's words at face value? Because if that's what we're doing, then it doesn't make much sense. We know that Moriah lost his crew members, all of them. If that's what you call going toe-to-toe with somebody...

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

He simply praised some of them. You're reading too much into it.

That ain't enough to deduce that he had a crew formidable enough to take on Kaido. Unless you're saying that at the time the rivalry took place Kaido was much much weaker than he is right now, which is very unlikely.

Even a hundred of pre-timeskip Zoro-level fighters wouldn't be enough to defeat someone like Jack (quantity doesn't matter when there's no quality), let alone Kaido. And to think that Moriah had crew members/zombies much stronger than Zoro/Luffy back in the day, while we know exactly how strong present Moriah is...

Also, go talk to your mom using such an outrageously rude manner of speech.

PS: Also, as I already mentioned, both you and Shasha23 could be right. Because it's just how the Japanese language is. It tends to be very 'generally speaking'-esque. That line of contention that we're discussing can be understood differently. The context that you appeal to so frequently indeed matters. Which is perhaps even more apparent to Japanese readers. That particular sentence could very well be taken as "among other things you have some strong members too". It's just a general way of saying you're not absolutely hopeless, but that power still ain't enough for the new world. I honestly think you're reading too much into it.

And as @nik87 rightly remarked, Moriah'' crew got annihilated, it was in fact very one sided. Supernovas are rivals too, but you wouldn't seriously compare Bonney to Luffy strength-wise.

Tbf, a motivated Moriah would be a lot stronger than pre-ts Zoro, and that's only at base. Give him a couple hundred shadows to eat and he would be stronger than Nightmare Luffy (i say only a couple hundred to avoid him throwing them up). His DF has great potential. I think it may just be that he wouldn't have lost to Luffy if he had any brains left tbh.

 

[nik87]

Are we seriously gonna take that random guy's words at face value? Because if that's what we're doing, then it doesn't make much sense. We know that Moriah lost his crew members, all of them. If that's what you call going toe-to-toe with somebody...

Agree, we cant take those words as a fact. According to that guy its also impossible that someone has beaten Moriah, while some rookie took him out...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Are we seriously gonna take that random guy's words at face value? Because if that's what we're doing, then it doesn't make much sense. We know that Moriah lost his crew members, all of them. If that's what you call going toe-to-toe with somebody...

That's as silly as saying because this random guy is the one that informed us on how DFs get transferred, and not Vegapunk, it can't be believed. Please... that's nonsense. Oda can inform the reader about anything with any character he wants.

It said he was tough enough, doesn't say he was as strong as Kaido. There are clearly limitations to his powers. That much is common sense.

1. You do realise he has a Ship almost the size of an Island.
2. He must have had many crew members.
3. He said he had many talented crew members who most would be as strong as Zoro and Sanji if not stronger as they were his point of reference.
4. For someone like Moriah to remotely stand a chance, he'd require the use of Shadows.

One can only make deductions based on the information at hand until more is provided.

If it doesn't make sense to you, then you should read more of the Manga.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Tbf, a motivated Moriah would be a lot stronger than pre-ts Zoro, and that's only at base. Give him a couple hundred shadows to eat and he would be stronger than Nightmare Luffy (i say only a couple hundred to avoid him throwing them up). His DF has great potential. I think it may just be that he wouldn't have lost to Luffy if he had any brains left tbh.

I know, he has/had much potential. But even as a supposed veteran of the New World he doesn't seem to know haki, which is pretty much a basic element of a successful pirate in the new world.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I know, he has/had much potential. But even as a supposed veteran of the New World he doesn't seem to know haki, which is pretty much a basic element of a successful pirate in the new world.

You're pretty myopic with your insight.

Luffy didn't have Haki, yet defeated the Gorgon sisters.

Crocodile didn't have Haki, yet he was able to venture off into the New World, make a name for himself, and challenge Whitebeard.

There's a reason Devil fruits are a thing, they bridge gaps in power that people cannot make up for physically. Haki isn't everything. Tashigi with Haki couldn't beat Monet. Hell, who knows how many of his crew members had powerful Devil fruits?

If you remotely did any research before just spouting, Stephen's translation:

... Doesn't quite say toe to toe, says same level as Kaido. It could refer to the size of his crew in terms of the total accumulation of power. With a Ship the size of an Island and that many subordinates, it's not at all farfetched that Moriah could have been once considered powerful. Strength isn't only individual, it can be in numbers too.

End of the day, fact is with this as all the information, we can only rationalise things in a way that makes it possible. Point is no matter how huge his crew is, they died, and he eventually lost. Doesn't mean he wasn't formidable. He has a thing for numbers, it's not farfetched the presume this was how he made his way to prominence when his ship is literally of this capacity and who knows if he was even influential enough to have allies given how big his singular crew was?

 

[nik87]

That information doesnt say that Moriah is a strong individual, it says he was as strong as Kaido at some point in the past. That past Kaido wasnt as strong as current Kaido. Thanks @Eigengrau for pointing that out.
Even Shanks, who is an Emperor now, wasnt as strong as he currently is in his past. That information doesnt put Moriah anywhere Yonko's level.
Also, i dont think he used Thriller Bark in New World so his crew might not have been that big. First, its hard to imagine such colossal ship went safely to the NW under the sea. Second, in the flashback when he meets Dr Hogback he has a different ship.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

1. You do realise he has a Ship almost the size of an Island.
2. He must have had many crew members.
3. He said he had many talented crew members who most would be as strong as Zoro and Sanji if not stronger as they were his point of reference.
4. For someone like Moriah to remotely stand a chance, he'd require the use of Shadows.

One can only make deductions based on the information at hand until more is provided.

If it doesn't make sense to you, then you should read more of the Manga.

I'm not in a complete disagreement with your logic, but your scenario includes too much ifs. If Moriah uses his Shadow Asgard technique (for which he'd have to store a lot of shadows prepared just in case or put his so talented nakama in danger by taking away their shadows, also he'll need something like a huge tent to keep the people he took shadows from away from the sunlight), if we assume that he had that many strong followers etc.

Speaking of random guys' opinions. It was also stated by not so random but still a character that there are only five flying powers ever discovered, which is just not true as we all know. There are two Tontattas, Karasu, Pell, Marco, Buffalo, Caesar...

Or we could make a reference to that drunk guy, an underling of Bellamy, who claimed that because both Luffy and Zoro had higher bounties than Bellamy the latter would not stand a chance. Bellamy lost miserably in the end, but I'm just making a point that you should be able to understand, because you don't believe that bounty reflects the strength of a character.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2018 ---

That information doesnt say that Moriah is a strong individual, it says he was as strong as Kaido at some point in the past. That past Kaido wasnt as strong as current Kaido. Thanks @Eigengrau for pointing that out.
Even Shanks, who is an Emperor now, wasnt as strong as he currently is in his past. That information doesnt put Moriah anywhere Yonko's level.
Also, i dont think he used Thriller Bark in New World so his crew might not have been that big. First, its hard to imagine such colossal ship went safely to the NW under the sea. Second, in the flashback when he meets Dr Hogback he has a different ship.

Thriller Bark originally belonged to the West Blue, and then was somehow transported to the Grand Line. It would make more sense if he first moved it to the New World since the West Blue is situated right next to the NW. It's still a mystery though as to how Moriah managed to get such a massive ship from the West Blue to the Grand Line.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I'm not in a complete disagreement with your logic, but your scenario includes too much ifs. If Moriah uses his Shadow Asgard technique (for which he'd have to store a lot of shadows prepared just in case or put his so talented nakama in danger by taking away their shadows, also he'll need something like a huge tent to keep the people he took shadows from away from the sunlight), if we assume that he had that many strong followers etc.

Speaking of random guys' opinions. It was also stated by not so random but still a character that there are only five flying powers ever discovered, which is just not true as we all know. There are two Tontattas, Karasu, Pell, Marco, Buffalo, Caesar...

Or we could make a reference to that drunk guy, an underling of Bellamy, who claimed that because both Luffy and Zoro had higher bounties than Bellamy the latter would not stand a chance. Bellamy lost miserably in the end, but I'm just making a point that you should be able to understand, because you don't believe that bounty reflects the strength of a character.

Fact is he fought Kaido. Point I'm making is it's possible if you read my initial posts.