Discussion NNT versus thread

[Estarossa173]

And you know that Mel never lose when his opponent has the same exact PL than him, he always had the edge for being a better fighter lol.
He was even confident to take them all when he was helping Elizabeth lol.

That’s true.

 

[Demonspeed]

He gained about 25k with his incomplete demon mark (pre Purgatory). So with his 60k base he should AT LEAST get a 30k boost, and i think 100k with his demon mark is pretty ok if you ask me.

The thing is that it's still hard to gauge how strong he is. I said I feel like he would win because he is Mel, but feats-wise he hasn't done anything better than the ones I mentioned. I am more confident saying he would beat Chandler because Chandler becomes a pure physical fighter. But for the Archangels, especially Ludociel, it's a different story.

 

[sobreno]

That’s true.

Seriously, in a pure fighting and battle prowess ( forgot PL in this case ), who is a better fighter than Meliodas? No one lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 1, 2018 ---

The thing is that it's still hard to gauge own strong he is. I said I feel like he would win because he is Mel, but feats-wise he hasn't done anything better than the ones I mentioned. I am more confident saying he would beat Chandler because Chandler becomes a pure physical fighter. But for the Archangels, especially Ludociel, it's a different story.

Mel and Chandler are literally the worst types of opponent for someone like the Archangels, because of Full Counter coupled with their ridiculous physical prowess.

Like how Estarossa is the worst opponent for a pure physical fighter.

 

[Demonspeed]

Seriously, in a pure fighting and battle prowess ( forgot PL in this case ), who is a better fighter than Meliodas? No one lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 1, 2018 ---

Mel and Chandler are literally the worst types of opponent for someone like the Archangels, because of Full Counter coupled with their ridiculous physical prowess.

Like how Estarossa is the worst opponent for a pure physical fighter.

I said especially Ludociel for a reason. Sariel and Tarmiel have better feats, but I don't think they could beat him. I think Ludociel could though, because he is stronger than these two and unlike them he is more of a physical fighter, with Flash enhancing his speed, he has the Goddess healing and he was durable enough to tank hits from Indura. It's not like Meliodas can counter absolutely everything single move used against him.

 

[Mythoclast]

I agree with this excepted the Archangels VS all the TC and maybe two first ones. The Commandments's abilities are much more versatile even though most are weaker.

Most of the Commandments are terribly outgunned here.I don't think their versatility can make up for that.

It is really hard to gauge how powerful Mel is with his normal Demon mark. I feel like he has to be stronger because he is Mel sometimes. Against Chandler, I think he would win, but against Ludociel I am not sure, feats-wise that Mel is below Sariel and Tarmiel to me. And we know Ludociel is stronger than these two so I am going to say Ludociel for now.

True form Chandler is way more versatile and should be in the same ballpark as far as powerlevels are concerned with this version of Mel.I don't see how Mel wins this match up.

I agree with the Ludociel stuff.

 

[sobreno]

I said especially Ludociel for a reason. Sariel and Tarmiel have better feats, but I don't think they could beat him. I think Ludociel could though, because he is stronger than these two and unlike them he is more of a physical fighter, with Flash enhancing his speed, he has the Goddess healing and he was durable enough to tank hits from Indura. It's not like Meliodas can counter absolutely everything single move used against him.

Mel can still counter any of his blast and Ark, Full Counter work regardless of your PL, it has been shown countless times in the manga.

You can be even the DK, it will work lmao, I admit that I was wrong with that one too.

Ludo still didn't show the speed to completely outclass the reaction of someone like Demon mark post purgatory Meliodas, he was fully confident to face not only him but with the two others below in the flashback.

Mel is a better tank too, hell, being a physical monster is his specialty, more than any Goddess bar Mael with his Sunshine at a specific point in time of course.
So yeah, facing Full Counter will still be annoying for any magic-oriented character, and Meliodas will still attack until he defeats him.
Honestly, thanks to that hax + his superior offensive strength and power, he takes the edge here until Ludo show better feats.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 1, 2018 ---

I completely forgot Revenge Counter too lol.

 

[Demonspeed]

Mel can still counter any of his blast and Ark, Full Counter work regardless of your PL, it has been shown countless times in the manga.

You can be even the DK, it will work lmao, I admit that I was wrong with that one too.

Ludo still didn't show the speed to completely outclass the reaction of someone like Demon mark post purgatory Meliodas, he was fully confident to face not only him but with the two others below in the flashback.

Mel is a better tank too, hell, being a physical monster is his specialty, more than any Goddess bar Mael with his Sunshine at a specific point in time of course.
So yeah, facing Full Counter will still be annoying for any magic-oriented character, and Meliodas will still attack until he defeats him.
Honestly, thanks to that hax + his superior offensive strength and power, he takes the edge here until Ludo show better feats.

I am not saying that Full Counter won't work. I was the first one to say that the part of him that's in the Purgatory would use Full Counter on the DK. I am saying that Meliodas having Full Counter doesn't mean he can reflect every single attack all the time, and Ludociel's speed makes this harder. He has been hit by magic attacks plenty of times already. Meliodas should not be helpless against him but Ludociel is definitely much faster. If he could react to this without problem then it would be impossible to hit him with a long range magic attack, no way he can do this. I know Mel is a tank, but Meliodas with this Demon mark like that doesn't have the Archangels's durability feats and their healing is better.

 

[OtakuFreak]

He gained about 25k with his incomplete demon mark (pre Purgatory). So with his 60k base he should AT LEAST get a 30k boost, and i think 100k with his demon mark is pretty ok if you ask me.

Might be just me, but I consider Meliodas post-purgatory (or Holy War) to be AA tier. So around 90-100k, considering how Ludoshel had some caution facing Meliodas, but was smirking and confident with Sariel and Tarmiel at his side.

And you know that Mel never lose when his opponent has the same exact PL than him, he always had the edge for being a better fighter lol.
He was even confident to take them all when he was helping Elizabeth lol.

I know Mel is basically OP and Nakaba's child, but confidence doesn't always mean that he's more powerful than the opponnent. 3AA vs a confident Meliodas (outside AM) doesn't mean he'll win lmao.

riously, in a pure fighting and battle prowess ( forgot PL in this case ), who is a better fighter than Meliodas? No one lol.

The Gods are shaking right now and want a word with you

 

[Demonspeed]

Meliodas didn't say he would beat them, he said he would keep them busy. Obviously he is AA tier like this, but there is no way he can beat three or two them at once in this form.

 

[sobreno]

I am not saying that Full Counter won't work. I was the first one to say that the part of him that's in the Purgatory would use Full Counter on the DK. I am saying that Meliodas having Full Counter doesn't mean he can reflect every single attack all the time, and Ludociel's speed makes this harder. He has been hit by magic attacks plenty of times already. Meliodas should not be helpless against him but Ludociel is definitely much faster. I know Mel is a tank, but Meliodas with this Demon mark like that doesn't have the Archangels's durability feats and their healing is better.

Mel was hit when someone made a diversion, that is the only way to something counter Full Counter, but Ludo doesn't have that kind of magic attack, his magic attack is pretty straightforward, which is the easiest to counter here lol.

Like I said, Ludo didn't show the speed to outclass the speed's reaction of someone like Mel, you completely forgot that Mel was confident to face the 3 of them in his Demon mark or not?
You know who Mel is right? He isn't a nobody when he shows that kind of confidence.

Meliodas is more durable, are you saying that the Archangels who are even not physical brawlers are more durable than a tank like Mel? Okay.
Physical fighters are the one who the most durable and Demons are pretty resilient in that domain.

Their healing isn't better than the demons, they are roughly the same, both light and darkness.
Revenge counter is still a deadly option too.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 2, 2018 ---

Might be just me, but I consider Meliodas post-purgatory (or Holy War) to be AA tier. So around 90-100k, considering how Ludoshel had some caution facing Meliodas, but was smirking and confident with Sariel and Tarmiel at his side.



I know Mel is basically OP and Nakaba's child, but confidence doesn't always mean that he's more powerful than the opponnent. 3AA vs a confident Meliodas (outside AM) doesn't mean he'll win lmao.



The Gods are shaking right now and want a word with you

If you know that then why you are saying the opposite lol.

It is like I said, when it is Meliodas, 95% of the time ( you see, I didn't say 100% ), when he is fully confident, that means that it isn't a problem for him and seeing their face when he steps him already show that.

More when it isn't the arrogant version of Meliodas, like the one in the flashback.

The Gods are Gods, they didn't show any skills in pure fighting prowess with their body, they just one shot like Saitama, that is all.

I don't call that: " skills of the best fighter ever ".

Like I said, forgot PLs and you will see that when we talk about pure fighting skills and battle prowess, Mel is easily the best in that domain lol.

 

[Mythoclast]

Mel would've gotten his ass destroyed if he had actually fought the Archangels.
Ludociel on his own is enough to extreme diff him,much less three Archangels.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Their healing isn't better than the demons, they are roughly the same, both light and darkness.

I'm pretty sure their healing is better?

They can heal other people with their light, unlike the demons who can't.

And its been stated that Demonic healing does heal injuries, but retains the damage, unlike Goddess healing which seems to eliminate the damage.

Mel would've got his ass destroyed if he had actually fought the Archangels.
Ludociel on his own is enough to extreme diff him,much less three Archangels.

Meliodas probably knew that, but also guaranteed on the fact that the 3AA wouldn't go after him if Elizabeth was there holding back a bigger threat.

That's why he was confident tbh

 

[sobreno]

I'm pretty sure their healing is better?

They can heal other people with their light, unlike the demons who can't.

And its been stated that Demonic healing does heal injuries, but retains the damage, unlike Goddess healing which seems to eliminate the damage.



Meliodas probably knew that, but also guaranteed on the fact that the 3AA wouldn't go after him if Elizabeth was there holding back a bigger threat.

That's why he was confident tbh

Nope, it isn't better, I will give you an example:

Ban is the best in that domain. Why? Not because he is immortal but because he comes back from basically nothing, Estarossa destroy literally his entire body and he still comes back.

That makes him the best. Both Goddesses and Demons show to heal in the same manner, they use their light and darkness to heal themselves.

Lol what? Are you saying that Meliodas was using Elizabeth as a decoy because he is a coward? That is a new one.
Meliodas doesn't fear anybody, he clearly said that he will take the 3 of them, not Ludo alone with a smile.
He even shows how fast he was by surprising them to comes there in an instant lol.

 

[Demonspeed]

Mel was hit when someone made a diversion, that is the only way to something counter Full Counter, but Ludo doesn't have that kind of magic attack, his magic attack is pretty straightforward, which is the easiest to counter here lol.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that Meliodas never got hit by a Magic in a fight? He can reflect anything but he needs to react fast enough for this, and there are various ways to use Magics, like with Gilthunder. Gloxinia got him, Ban, Dolor, King and more. Also, if you fight at close range it's easier to hit him with it.

Like I said, Ludo didn't show the speed to outclass the speed's reaction of someone like Mel, you completely forgot that Mel was confident to face the 3 of them in his Demon mark or not?
You know who Mel is right? He isn't a nobody when he shows that kind of confidence.

Huh, you should rather show me where Mel showed that he has the reflexes to match Flash. It is very simple, they are in the same ballpark. So, if Ludociel's Magic allows him to become much faster, it means he is clearly the fastest fighter. Do you remember how he got free from Escanor? I know that Escanor is weaker than Mel with his mark but it's not like Ludociel was at full power in his host either. And it says a lot about his speed.

As I said above Mel didn't say he could beat them like that, he said he would keep them busy. And even if he had said it, with what I have seen of the Archangels's power I would not believe this at all.

Meliodas is more durable, are you saying that the Archangels who are even not physical brawlers are more durable than a tank like Mel? Okay.
Physical fighters are the one who the most durable and Demons are pretty resilient in that domain.

Being a physical fighter doesn't mean you are more durable than the magical ones. Merlin and King are rather fragile but it isn't the case for people like Merascylla, Monspiet, Gowther or the Archangels, plus Ludociel is more of a close-ranged fighter compared to Sariel and Tarmiel, with his speed at close range it would definitely be very hard to deal with him. We saw the Archangels regenerate from Indura Monspiet's Hellblaze, we saw Ludociel take Indura Derrierie's attacks and he didn't even heal himself.

Their healing isn't better than the demons, they are roughly the same, both light and darkness.
Revenge counter is still a deadly option too.

What? Demon healing is inferior to Goddess healing. Goddess healing has no drawback so far, they don't feel the pain of the previous injury. It just disappear, it's not the case for Demons.

Revenge Counter is an option but it would be suicidal against fighters of this caliber. He needs to suppress his Magic making him much less durable.

 

[Mythoclast]

Yeah,the Goddesses' regen is overall better than the Demon's regen.

 

[sobreno]

What are you talking about? Are you saying that Meliodas never got hit by a Magic in a fight? He can reflect anything but he needs to react fast enough for this, and there are vvarious ways to use Magics, like with Gilthunder. Gloxinia got him, Ban, Dolor and more. Also, if you fight at close range it's easier to hit him with it.



Huh, you should rather show me where Mel showed that he has the reflexes to match Flash. It is very simple, they are in the same ballpark. So, if Ludociel's Magic allows him to become much faster, it means he is clearly the fastest fighter. Do you remember how he got free from Escanor? I know that Escanor is weaker than Mel with his mark but it's not like Ludociel was at full power in his host either. And it says a lot about his speed.

As I said above Mel didn't say he could beat them like that, he said he would keep them busy. And even if he had said it, with what I have seen of the Archangels's power I would not believe this at all.



Being a physical fighter doesn't mean you are more durable than the magical ones. Merlin and King are rather fragile but it isn't the case for people like Merascylla, Monspiet, Gowther or the Archangels, plus Ludociel is more of a close-ranged fighter compared to Sariel and Tarmiel, with his speed at close range it would definitely be very hard to deal with him. We saw the Archangels regenerate from Indura Monspiet's Hellblaze, we saw Ludociel take Indura Derrierie's attack and he didn't even heal himself.



What? Demon healing is inferior to Goddess healing. Goddess healing has no drawback so far, they don't feel the pain of the previous injury. It just disappear, it's not the case for Demons.

Revenge Counter is an option but it would be suicidal against fighters of this caliber. He needs to suppress his Magic making him much less durable.

Yes, being faster than the user is the only way to counter Full Counter but Ludoshel didn't meet that category until proven otherwise.
Gulthunder never bypass Full Counter, Gloxinia too, he never used Full Counter against Glox by the way and we knew that he easily could since he was faster than him, he keeps outspeeding him during the entire battle lol. Same for Dolor.

Ban is a special case, Full Counter doesn't work in an indirect magic like snatch, it was stated by the manga already, Full Counter works on a direct magic attack.

Nope, it doesn't work like that lol, they are in the same ballpark with him with his grace, not without it. It is you who should show me how he can outspeed someone with the same ballpark than him, you are entering No Limit Fallacy territory here.
The Escanor feat is irrelevant because like you says, that Escanor was nothing to even base 60K Mel lol.
And Mel has show to outspeed a lot of characters in that manners throughout the manga too. In pure speed, he is the best too.

Then that makes you a downplayer, he also knows them and still was confident to takes them all, Meliodas isn't the arrogant type in that flashback arc, he is clearly serious.

It still means that they aren't more durable than a full physical brawler lol, that is common sense here. They aren't even that physically strong, so imagine a physical fighter who always uses his physical strength to overcomes his enemy? His durability is more put in the line than a magic-oriented fighter, that is obvious.
Demons can regenerate from being burnt too, Estarossa showed it.

Nope, they are the same, they regenerate in the exact same manners, and it still works.

No, it is not a suicidal option since he always worked lol, Meliodas was even on a more suicidal scenario and still pulled out, against 9 people on top of that.
That is the goal, he is still a tank and he accumulates damages, when he decided to stop, it is game over for his opponent, due to the risk of the technique, it is pretty much a one-shot move if he activates it.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 2, 2018 ---

Yeah,the Goddesses' regen is overall better than the Demon's regen.

Lol how, I didn't see them from coming back against injuries worse than the Demons.

 

[Mythoclast]

Lol how, I didn't see them from coming back against injuries worse than the Demons.

Such as?

 

[sobreno]

Such as?

Any type of injuries that the Goddesses showed to regenerate off, the Demons also showed it.

The only feat that they both didn't show was the Ban feat, coming from the entire destruction of the body.

 

[Demonspeed]

Yes, being faster than the user is the only way to counter Full Counter but Ludoshel didn't meet that category until proven otherwise.
Gulthunders never bypass Full Counter, Gloxinia too, he never used Full Counter against Glox by the way and we knew that he easily could since he was faster than him, he keeps outspeeding him during the entire battle lol. Same for Dolor.

Did you read what I said above? I said he can reflect anything, but only if he can react to it. You are acting as if he can react to all kinds of attacks and it's not the case. All these characters hit him so he is not infallible. Why did they hit him? Because he was unable to react. Gilthunder used his Magic in a way which would make him hit Meliodas.

Ludociel isn't faster than Mel like that until proven otherwise? Seriously? His magic is an insane speed burst. It is obvious that he is faster. Meliodas has been hit by attacks slower than this.

Ban is a special case, Full Counter doesn't work in an indirect magic like snatch, it was stated by the manga already, Full Counter works on a direct magic attack.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't remember them saying this. King said he can't reflect physical attacks. Meliodas reflected moves like King's Status Promotion, he should be able to reflect Snatch as well. But back then he had no weapon anyway.

Nope, it doesn't work like that lol, they are in the same ballpark with him with his grace, not without it. It is you who should show me how he can outspeed someone with the same ballpark than him, you are entering No Limit Fallacy territory here.
The Escanor deat is irrelevant because like you says, that Escanor was nothing to even base 60K Mel lol.
And Mel has show to outspeed a lot of characters in that manners throughout the manga too.

I don't want to talk about PL with or without Grace again. But it doesn't matter here at all, I never talked about him being "without his Grace" Ludociel has his Flash and he is incredibly fast. Meliodas never blitzed someone in the same ballpark as him like that. Never.

Then that makes you a downplayer, he also knows them and still was confident to takes them all, Meliodas isn't the arrogant type in that flashback arc, he is clearly serious.

Wait, you are saying that Meliodas with his mark like that can beat three Archangels?

It still means that they aren't more durable than a full physical brawler lol, that is common sense here. They aren't even that physically strong, so imagine a physical fighter who always uses his physical strength to overcomes his enemy? His durability is more put in the line than a magic-oriented fighter, that is obvious.

No, it doesn't. We are talking about feats here, not their fighting style. Merlin and King are the fragile ones among the magic specialists. Demons and Goddesses are ridiculously durable in general.

Demons can regenerate from being burnt too, Estarossa showed it.

Nope, they are the same, they regenerate in the exact same manners, and it still works.

Don't you get it? Demon healing makes it look like you healed perfectly but you still feel the pain. Goddess healing erases absolutely everything. Regenerating from burn isn't what matters here. It's regenerating quickly from a Hellblaze attack used by Monspiet a master at this who was in Indura mode that's impressive.

No, it is not a suicidal option since he always worked lol, Meliodas was even on a more suicidal scenario and still pulled out, against 9 people on top of that.
That is the goal, he is still a tank and he accumulates damages, when he decided to stop, it is game over for his opponent, due to the risk of the technique, it is pretty much a one-shot move if he activates it.

Nine people who hit him with attacks much weaker? He took a Derrierie combo and Hellblaze Bird and one of Dreyfus's attack. Archangels are much stronger than them and they would notice the drop of magic power. It was viable against the Commandments like this because he had already been weakened and injured.

 

[sobreno]

Did you read what I said above? I said he can reflect anything, but only if he can react to it. You are acting as if he can react to all kinds of attacks and it's not the case. All these characters hit him so he is not infallible. Why did they hit him? Because he was unable to react. Gilthunder used his Magic in a way which would make him hit Meliodas.

Ludociel isn't faster than Mel like that until proven otherwise? Seriously? His magic is an insane speed burst. It is obvious that he is faster. Meliodas has been hit by attacks slower than this.



Maybe I am wrong, but I don't remember them saying this. King said he can't reflect physical attacks. Meliodas reflected moves like King's Status Promotion, he should be able to reflect Snatch as well. But back then he had no weapon anyway.



I don't want to talk about PL with or without Grace again. But it doesn't matter here at all, I never talked about him being "without his Grace" Ludociel has his Flash and he is incredibly fast. Meliodas never blitzed someone in the same ballpark as him like that. Never.




Wait, you are saying that Meliodas with his mark like that can beat three Archangels?



No, it doesn't. We are talking about feats here, not their fighting style. Merlin and King are the fragile ones among the magic specialists. Demons and Goddesses are ridiculously durable in general.




Don't you get it? Demon healing makes it look like you healed perfectly but you still feel the pain. Goddess healing erases absolutely everything. Regenerating from burn isn't what matters here. It's regenerating quickly from a Hellblaze attack used by Monspiet a master at this who was in Indura mode that's impressive.



Nine people who hit him with attacks much weaker? He took a Derrierie combo and Hellblaze Bird and one of Dreyfus's attack. Archangels are much stronger than them and they would notice the drop of magic power. It was viable against the Commandments like this because he had already been weakened and injured.

Yeah and I confirmed what you said lol, did you read it or you miss it?
Like I said, they hit him because he didn't use Full Counter against them, he had the speed to easily blitz them, but he didn't use Full Counter against most of them, preferring to dominates them in physical strength. Never forget that Meliodas hold back a lot when he had his emotions.

Nope, it doesn't work like that, you are the one who claims that he is faster than post purgatory demon mark Mel, proves it lol.
It isn't obvious since even Mel surprises him with his speed in that flashback, he didn't even sense him to move at all.
Slower? Like? Pretty sure that you ignored the context lol.

Yeah, but I have doubt that he can full counter snatch but whatever.

Lol, you missed the point, I didn't imply that Mel blitz characters in his ballpark, you are the one who implied that Ludo can do that, prove it.
I never see Ludo blitzing a character at the same level of power level as him too.
Meliodas is also incredibly fast, you talk that he lacks in that department lmao.

I am saying that he can push them with high difficulty at least, or beat them with Revenge counter like he always does when he is outnumbered.
Meliodas know his limit and know the Archangels, he isn't an idiot and saying otherwise will prove that you intend to downplay him.
He was confident to takes them all, he will never have that confidence if he has zero chance on his own. That is his type of character.

Yes, it is as I said, ridiculously durable? Cough Elizabeth cough.
Here is the fact, a physically oriented fighter is more durable than a magic-oriented fighter if they are both on the same ballpark, that is common sense, logic itself.

How do you know that? Show me demons suffering from pain in the process of healing lol.
Goddesses are the same too.
Demons can easily do that too, Estarossa regenerates from Sunshine's cruel Sun and with a smile ( yeah he was suffering right? )

It doesn't matter, he was several times weaker and still survived nuke from Glox, attack from Derrierie, Monspiet and Fraudin.
That was enough to solo the entire 10C in one swing. That show how deadly this technique is.

Meliodas know where it should be enough to solo them, the key is his damages and he never failed to gauge them up until now, that is how skilled he is with Revenge counter.
He let himself being weakened, he did that on purpose and know what he was doing all the time.