One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kalmier]

@kalmierPlot armor is often present and it takes a trained eye to notice when the plot is giving a character a hand.
Strawhats didn't lose to Pacifista's on Sabaody because the plot was helping Pacifista but because they were too weak.

Definitely Luffy is the biggest winner when it comes to plot armor, nothing surprising there as he's the main protagonist. As I mentioned first Crocodile, then Lucci, there was Enel before as well (having the exact DF counter), now Katakuri too, when I read their battle in the manga yeah, Oda had given Luffy quite a kick in the ass so that he can cross the finish line, it was too early for Luffy to beat such an opponent.
So in some instances plot armor is more or less evident.

Anyway, plot armor affects every character in every series, and if the circumstances call for the logical death of a character but he does not die due to some miracle, yeah, the creator didn't really want them to die.
But think about this for a moment: the gap between unbelievable and logical is much smaller when Akainu survived WB's onslaught than when Luffy survived the first two skirmishes with Crocodile and beat him on the 3rd for example. Frankly it was also more unbelievable when WB survived Squardo's lance or Akainu's blow to the chest and the Meigo, because as strong as your are you cannot train your insides. There are numerous arguments in favor of Akainu's toughness, and the 'plot' argument doesn't do him any justice, in this case the plot armor argument is a lazy dismissal of his prowess.
Btw was it Oda who said Akainu was supposed to die at MF ? Someone on youtube said that, dunno if it's true.

If any of you ever decide to take a literature class for college, try (and I hope your lucky enough ) to take an English class based on "the hero's journey"
It really highlights the struggles all heroes (movie, comic book, book, etc.) must go through to achieve their goals.
"Plot Armor", is viewed more negatively than it should be and I think it's because of lengths one goes to disregard fundamental essence of one's journey and the supporting cast around them.

Oh that sounds interesting, too bad I'm not a student anymore xD. In your opinion was Akainu supposed to die at MF ? Did he survive because Oda had plans for him, or because he's the toughest person in the marines? I mean, Oda has plans for almost everyone and he does not say it at the SBSs unless asked; maybe he 'saved' a few characters here and there and we don't even know about it, but that doesn't stop us from discussing the very same characters' power levels.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Definitely Luffy is the biggest winner when it comes to plot armor, nothing surprising there as he's the main protagonist. As I mentioned first Crocodile, then Lucci, there was Enel before as well (having the exact DF counter), now Katakuri too, when I read their battle in the manga yeah, Oda had given Luffy quite a kick in the ass so that he can cross the finish line, it was too early for Luffy to beat such an opponent.
So in some instances plot armor is more or less evident.

Anyway, plot armor affects every character in every series, and if the circumstances call for the logical death of a character but he does not die due to some miracle, yeah, the creator didn't really want them to die.
But think about this for a moment: the gap between unbelievable and logical is much smaller in the Akainu vs WB clash than when Luffy survived the first two skirmishes with Crocodile and beat him on the 3rd for example. There are numerous arguments in favor of Akainu's toughness, and the 'plot' argument doesn't do him any justice, in this case the plot armor argument is a lazy dismissal of his prowess.
Btw was it Oda who said Akainu was supposed to die at MF ? Someone on youtube said that, dunno if it's true.



Oh that sounds interesting, too bad I'm not a student anymore xD. In your opinion was Akainu supposed to die at MF ? Did he survive because Oda had plans for him, or because he's the toughest person in the marines? I mean, Oda has plans for almost everyone and he does not say it at the SBSs unless asked; maybe he 'saved' a few characters here and there and we don't even know about it, but that doesn't stop us from discussing the very same characters' power levels.

In regards to Akainu? Both. Oda has plans for him AND because he is the strongest Marine.

Like all manga, there will come a time when the MC is forced to confront the one who took something dear from him.

Luffy WILL face off against Akainu at some point in this story. That's not up for debate.

What is up for debate is whether or not Oda plans for Akainu or BB to be the final villain of One Piece (And we also have Imu to consider)

Very few people like to argue that Pirate King's don't need to be the strong. I disagree and to become the strongest, you need to be able to face off against Admirals and Yonko regularly.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2019 ---

I agree at times plot armor can take one out of the story, but too many people use the term incorrectly.

Mans OP fans would see Luffy's ability to gather allies as plot armor (for example: When Luffy ran out of Gear 4 haki and he was saved by the arena fighters.)

We learned later from Oda that if the gladiators weren't around, Luffy would have just had to find a different way to run from Doflamingo. It wasn't plot armor, it was the use of an already established power of Luffy's to gather allies to his cause.

Wanna know what was true plot armor????

Luffy fucking spitting a barrel full of water up into the air only for it to come crashing back down on him and saving him from dying. It wasn't planned and Luffy had no idea it would save him. It came out of NOWHERE.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2019 ---

Now this is a power level thread soooooo

Raylaigh > Garp

f%*^"n fight me lol

 

[kalmier]

^ Yes indeed, both BB and Akainu are quite good antagonists for a final villain. I'm guessing Luffy will defeat Akainu to avenge Ace and his next big opponent will be BB for the Pirate King throne. I hope there will be some twists a la Oda to all this
Luffy is the biggest 'abuser' of plot armor that's for sure, what about other characters outside of the Strawhat crew?

Where do you put Garp by the way? On the same level as Fuji and Greenbull or at the level of the right hands of Yonkous?

 

[Pirate Queen]

^ Yes indeed, both BB and Akainu are quite good antagonists for a final villain. I'm guessing Luffy will defeat Akainu to avenge Ace and his next big opponent will be BB for the Pirate King throne. I hope there will be some twists a la Oda to all this
Luffy is the biggest 'abuser' of plot armor that's for sure, what about other characters outside of the Strawhat crew?

Where do you put Garp by the way? On the same level as Fuji and Greenbull or at the level of the right hands of Yonkous?

Admiral level for sure

 

[Sachsenhesse]

It's like comparing the rarity of Logias which is rare to begin with to that of Mythical Zoans which is extremely rare provided we only have 1 character (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong – no sarcasm intended) so far with it.

3 actually.
Marco = Phoenix
Catarina Devon = Ninetailed Fox
Sengoku = Buddha

All mythical seem to have Zoan Powers + a neat trick extra to it.

 

[Takuan]

Raylaigh > Garp

There's nothing to fight off, this is correct.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

3 actually.
Marco = Phoenix
Catarina Devon = Ninetailed Fox
Sengoku = Buddha

All mythical seem to have Zoan Powers + a neat trick extra to it.

Thanks for pointing that out. Totally skipped my mind.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2019 ---

Raylaigh > Garp

Ok. I don't get this.
Perhaps in old age yes old Rayleigh > old Garp but at their prime I feel Garp > Rayleigh.

Why? Cos Garp was duelling the bloody Pirate King at that time and keeping equally legendary pirates at bay – Rocks/locks was it? Home to current Yonko BM and Kaido.


U asked for a fight. It is on! lol...

 

[Hrathgrath]

That's not very fair.

Ains comments quite well and isn't close minded like HP used to be.

Fair point. But we’ll see. If you’re (Ains) not HP, then I apologize.

I will say until it’s said and done, everything is up to debate! Whether or not it’s likely sure, but undebateable, nah!
I mean, before the Mford war you could have said it would be “undebateable” that Luffy would fight Shirohige, but then he got killed in the war! Basically what I’m trying to say is don’t count out Akainu getting taken out some other way before Luffy gets the opportunity to fight him. I could see Oda hyping up Akainu a whole bunch and then having Kurohige kill/steal his fruit just to pass that hype to Kurohige!
On that same note anyone else think that Kurohige isn’t anywhere near proficient in the tremor fruit as Shirohige? I mean you could argue that he was able to nearly destroy MF just after obtaining the ability, but I doubt he would be at Shirohige’s level, even after a few years of practice..

Note: I was just showing off my Japanese.
Kurohige =Blackbeard
Shirohige = Whitebeard
Akainu = Red Dog = Sakazuki
Interesting note, if you didn’t already know, Japanese doesn’t differentiate between beard and mustache, hige means facial hair, which is why Shirohige was translated to Whitebeard even though he didn’t have a beard. A closer translation would have been Whitestache, or Whitefacialhair, neither of which would have been as cool as Whitebeard!

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Interesting note, if you didn’t already know, Japanese doesn’t differentiate between beard and mustache, hige means facial hair, which is why Shirohige was translated to Whitebeard even though he didn’t have a beard. A closer translation would have been Whitestache, or Whitefacialhair, neither of which would have been as cool as Whitebeard!

As someone who has searched for a real long time "beardoil" in japanese stores i can confirm, that they dont know beards at all.

 

[McNuss]

As someone who has searched for a real long time "beardoil" in japanese stores i can confirm, that they dont know beards at all.

Lol we germans don't differentiate either. We say "Bart" for beard and "Schnurrbart" for mustache. A "Schnurrbart" is still a "Bart", just like an apple tree (Apfelbaum) is still a tree (Baum). This composite word, "Schnurrbart" sounds more like its rooted in the original germanic language, while mustache sound like a french (?) lean-word.

So english is actually the weird language, but native english speakers don't know this.

 

[Hrathgrath]

.

So english is actually the weird language, but native english speakers don't know this.

You’re not wrong! Because the US is a country of immigrants, and even before that England was invaded many times, English is about 50% loan words. We have words that mean the exact same thing but look and sound so different we attribute different definitions, like understand and comprehend. We have loan words, in the us, from just about every language. And if I’m not mistaken English was originally a Germanic language, which is why or syntax is so similar. I’m a bit of a linguist, totally amateur. Two years of French, same of Japanese, several of German as a kid (born in Nuremberg, American military), bits of Latin and Greek (partially thanks to Percy Jackson) but next to no Spanish by choice, other than its similarity to other romantic languages.

Japanese has a whole bunch of loan words from German Spanish and English. Like big moms attacks are German I think (if I recall correctly) what about Kaidou ‘s attacks? Anyone know?

On that same note, I wonder if Kaidou and big mom are equally strong in defense. Like they both learned, or were born with, a special haki. Who do you think would win? My money is on Kaidou because he doesn’t fear a damn thing so her soul soul fruit would be at a disadvantage...

 

[M3J]

When it comes to power levels, there needs to be more taken into account. I believe I said this before, but LUffy can be inferior to someone like Jinbei and still win where Jinbei can't just because Luffy's rubber body gives him an advantage. Luffy can be superior to Zoro but still lose to a swordsman whereas Zoro would win just because of swords. Matchups matter, and more readers need to realize this.

King and Queen probably have different fighting styles than Katakuri, so just because Luffy struggled immensely doesn't mean Zoro and Sanji wouldn't be able to take on a Yonkou commander each.

 

[Hrathgrath]

As far as the jinbe v Luffy fight, Luffy’s body was already determined to not be a benefit since fishman karate can bypass the benefit by attacking the water in his body.

 

[M3J]

Whoops, meant if Luffy and Jinbei and Luffy and Zoro fought the same opponent. Luffy has advantages thanks to his rubber body, but he also has weaknesses that not even his rubber body could get rid of, like sharp objects. We've seen his rubber body give him the advantage: against Enel, Crocodile, Moria, Lucci, and Doflamingo to name a few. And yet, Jinbei could probably beat Crocodile and Moria easily enough and Lucci with some trouble whereas it took Luffy multiple tries, just because Jinbei can do damage with water.

 

[Hrathgrath]

I was just reading some older chapters and noticed that “King the fire” looks like a combo of Magellan and Pika... kinda lazy imho..

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

You’re not wrong! Because the US is a country of immigrants, and even before that England was invaded many times, English is about 50 loan words. We have words that mean the exact same thing but look and sound so different we attribute different definitions, like understand and comprehend. We have loan words, in the us, from just about every language. And if I’m not mistaken English was originally a Germanic language, which is why or syntax is so similar. I’m a bit of a linguist, totally amateur. Two years of French, same of Japanese, several of German as a kid (born in Nuremberg, American military), bits of Latin and Greek (partially thanks to Percy Jackson) but next to no Spanish by choice, other than its similarity to other romantic languages.

Japanese has a whole bunch of loan words from German Spanish and English. Like big moms attacks are German I think (if I recall correctly) what about Kaidou ‘s attacks? Anyone know?

On that same note, I wonder if Kaidou and big mom are equally strong in defense. Like they both learned, or were born with, a special haki. Who do you think would win? My money is on Kaidou because he doesn’t fear a damn thing so her soul soul fruit would be at a disadvantage...

Armament Haki isn't sth anyone - much less a lil kid - can use without training or even unconsciously unlike CoC.
Big Mom was already ridiculously strong as a child and had that uncanny ability. Kaido might also have had sth similar as a lil child.

I was just reading some older chapters and noticed that “King the fire” looks like a combo of Magellan and Pika... kinda lazy imho..

So you don't like his design. Not that I do but it'll matter little when he backs it up with ridiculous firepower (pun intended).

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2019 ---

Did anyone notice Jack's tendency to cause destruction and chaos? Might be due to him emulating King and Queen.
They were introduced to be much more brutal than Jack (treating him like a pushover) with King being the worst in brutality and destruction.

 

[thedude]

He has done a lot of physical training. He has visibly bulked up, for instance. Muscle made of rubber could be made out to be pretty scary. Add some definitive Haki training and he should be much, much stronger. Not that any amount of bulk or Observation, or even Armament, is going to overcome Kaido alone. There will doubtless be a team effort involved.

So long as Big Mom doesn't side with Kaido and work very well with him, Luffy and the other Supernovas should have a slight chance of winning. IF she does, then I can't begin to guess.

I really love the theory that Momo will be aged into an adult. Which should mean his dragon form would equal Kaido. That would even the odds considerably. And it would put him of an age with his sister.

Counterpoint to the lack of bulk not overcoming Kaido - Shanks is a slight man himself, and he is a Yonko on par with the others. We saw him clash with Whitebeard and we saw him intimidate the navy and Blackbeard and his crew into stopping the war after Whitebeards death. So I don't think size alone determines strength. Likewise, Rayleigh didn't look particularly big, and like Shanks, he doesn't have a devils fruit but is still considered one of the strongest.

 

[S-H-I-G-U-R-E]

Naah I don't think so. Reason:

The power gab btw every Yonko and their commanders is much.
If Luffy is going to be near Yonko level come end of Wano arc, then he has to be way more powerful than Zoro and Sanji.
Theydo not need to catch-up with him at all. They should not even be the least bit close to him in terms of power.

Hence, why he's been getting a lot of explosive growth and will be getting more this arc.
But of course, they too need to become stronger. Ultimately as strong as Yonko commanders.

Honestly, I seriously doubt Zoro will ever let himself be left in the dust by Luffy in terms of power. Let's not forget Zoro's dream here: to become the strongest swordsman in the world. Also, Zoro and Luffy have always been shown as equals in the manga, so there's that too. Can't say the same about Sanji, though. After the TS he's been struggling a bit too much in my opinion.

 

[King Moe]

Honestly, I seriously doubt Zoro will ever let himself be left in the dust by Luffy in terms of power. Let's not forget Zoro's dream here: to become the strongest swordsman in the world. Also, Zoro and Luffy have always been shown as equals in the manga, so there's that too. Can't say the same about Sanji, though. After the TS he's been struggling a bit too much in my opinion.

Not really. Zoro been facing more weaker and fodder-like opponents so far in NW. Luffy and Sanji been the ones to have more stronger and dangerous opponents. Zoro always struggle more with more serious opponents like Fujitora, Doflamingo's Birdcage, Hawkins, etc.. Right now, Sanji and Zoro are more rivals (Always been since pre-timeskip) and equal with one another than with Luffy who shown more fruits of his training so far in NW. We never seen the two go 100% so we can't put them out on them reaching close to Luffy's lvl.

They are Monster Trio after all. Though Luffy will be strongest in the group while Sanji and Zoro close to his power. Show it more on who they are facing in Wano in the future for their final fights being Kaido for Luffy while Sanji and Zoro have either King, Queen, Jack, or Orochi as their opponents at the end of this.

At this point I think we all know Oda's hierarchy with the group.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Last explosive growth Luffy had was in between Alabasta and Water 7, when he picked up Gear 2 and 3, if you don't count during the timeskip. Problem is, he'll need even more explosive growth here to even think about standing up to Kaidou, unless he'll be taking down Kaidou with other people.

I really, really don't want Kaidou to be solo'd in any way. Maybe Luffy could stalemate him like Shanks did, but narratively that downfall should require explicit teamwork.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2019 ---

They are Monster Trio after all. Though Luffy will be strongest in the group while Sanji and Zoro close to his power. Show it more on who they are facing in Wano in the future for their final fights being Kaido for Luffy while Sanji and Zoro have either King, Queen, Jack, or Orochi as their opponents at the end of this.

I'm still struggling to find relevance in the term 'monster trio'. Like has Oda even used the phrase to describe them? I can't even remember the specific panel of whoever calling them that, but it's used as such gospel by so many people. The second Jinbei was foreshadowed to join the group, that term lost all meaning. Even with a powerup, Jinbei could still probably solo or stalemate any of the 'monster trio', especially if he has an environmental advantage.