One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
  • Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
  • Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
 
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King Moe

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The Strawhats are probably going to be the only crew where Captain and First Mate are both Yonko tier.

I had the same feeling about Rayliegh because of how Garp talked about him.


Luffy as PK
Zoro as WSS
Sanji included as he be damned to be push around by Zoro ;). Knowing Oda he always put them as rivals for life on the crew. Roger Pirates already done that, but do agree and few crews will have that as well than just the strawhats. I think Kidd Pirates will be at Yonko lvl if Kidd and Killer are destined rivals for the two and can see Law and perhaps BlackBeard crew having that too.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I really, really don't want Kaidou to be solo'd in any way. Maybe Luffy could stalemate him like Shanks did, but narratively that downfall should require explicit teamwork.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



I'm still struggling to find relevance in the term 'monster trio'. Like has Oda even used the phrase to describe them? I can't even remember the specific panel of whoever calling them that, but it's used as such gospel by so many people. The second Jinbei was foreshadowed to join the group, that term lost all meaning. Even with a powerup, Jinbei could still probably solo or stalemate any of the 'monster trio', especially if he has an environmental advantage.
There been panels and shown in Sanji Discussion thread I think. Been mention a few times in certain arcs. One of them was Thriller Bark.

Don't think so. People are saying now that its either Monster Quartet if Jimbei does join as main or since Luffy is now know as the 'Fifth Yonko', he is out of Monster Trio and now its Sanji, Zoro, and Jimbei in the group and as his Yonko Commanders due to being the top strongest around.

That what I seen it heard. Though still apparent even now as mention above who Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro be potential be facing in the Wano arc.
 

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The Strawhats are probably going to be the only crew where Captain and First Mate are both Yonko tier.

I had the same feeling about Rayliegh because of how Garp talked about him.


Luffy as PK
Zoro as WSS
Honestly I would wait before I would proclaim the WSS as Yonko Tier. Mihawks duels with Shanks happened in the past. Preskip Mihawk tied with Vista and the recent databook revealed them as worthy foes. His shot never reached Whitebeard as Mihawk is unable to cut diamond. Mihawk was also seen doing peaceful gardening with Perona in one of the Cover Stories.
I think he is a red Herring. His power, too, has declined because he simply doesn't care that much anymore. He already challenged everyone until there was no one left and that was in the past. Now he already has chosen a succesor: Zoro. Mihawk agreed to train Zoro even though he knows Zoro wants his title. He would have never done that if he hadn't already come to acceptance about losing his title sometime in the future. He inadvertly already gave up on being the strongest.
It's implied that the other two Shishibukai that returned to Paradise did become weaker, why would Mihawk be an exception?
I think this is also where Zoro got his eye scar from. Zoro's growth rate was to rapid for training-mode Mihawk, so Mihawk had to get serious and injured Zoro.
 

nik87

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Knowing Oda he always put them as rivals for life on the crew.
Their in-crew rivalry will always stay the same, no matter how strong one or the other becomes. That has nothing to do with their actual combat capabilities. In the crew, there is only one monster who one-shots everyone and that's Nami.

They have been called monster trio once I think but it doesnt matter, imo. If it had any significance we would be seeing that term very often.Captain and the first mate are always the ones who are highlighted the most. Luffy and Zoro, Law and Bepo, Kidd and Killer, Roger and Rayleigh, Bege and Vito, Whitebeard and Marco... It doesnt take the awesomeness away from the 3rd in line in the crew but it doesnt focus on them too much either.
 

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I really, really don't want Kaidou to be solo'd in any way. Maybe Luffy could stalemate him like Shanks did, but narratively that downfall should require explicit teamwork.
Yep, that, or a "cheat" (like Nightmare Luffy for example) or both. But current Luffy shouldn't be able to 1v1 him under any normal circumstances.


I'm still struggling to find relevance in the term 'monster trio'. Like has Oda even used the phrase to describe them? I can't even remember the specific panel of whoever calling them that, but it's used as such gospel by so many people. The second Jinbei was foreshadowed to join the group, that term lost all meaning. Even with a powerup, Jinbei could still probably solo or stalemate any of the 'monster trio', especially if he has an environmental advantage.
'Monster Trio" was never literally in the Manga. Nami has described Luffy, Zoro, Sanji as "monsters", as they are indeed monstrously stronger than her.
The term "Monster Trio" is entirely a fan term, but the fans don't want to accept that. They just ignore Jinbe the Yonko-pusher.
 

King Moe

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Their in-crew rivalry will always stay the same, no matter how strong one or the other becomes. That has nothing to do with their actual combat capabilities. In the crew, there is only one monster who one-shots everyone and that's Nami.

They have been called monster trio once I think but it doesnt matter, imo. If it had any significance we would be seeing that term very often.Captain and the first mate are always the ones who are highlighted the most. Luffy and Zoro, Law and Bepo, Kidd and Killer, Roger and Rayleigh, Bege and Vito, Whitebeard and Marco... It doesnt take the awesomeness away from the 3rd in line in the crew but it doesnt focus on them too much either.
Its more than just comical with the rivalry though as Oda been showcasing it in serious moments. He always points it out in the series even their opponents they are facing even now. Sanji and Zoro isn't just comical stuff, they truly see each other as rivals doing better than the other in bounties, who they beat, contribute, etc.. The term been use often when they enter NW and in other arcs.

As for you examples....Ummmm....Since when Bepo as strong as the other second in command? Is he even that? As well as Vito? Bege also can't compete that much even with the second in commands. Plus yet to see Killer in what he dies so we can't insert him here.

Also Idk been cool 3rd or equal second in command in other crews like Oden been hype up in this arc. Even has Conqueror's Haki and was apart of Roger Pirates. There also that other crew mate of Bege with a machine gun for a arm as well, but said my peace of the crew.

Bottom line is. We can try to denied it or not, but Oda has already made it clear he still values Monster Trio even now as spotlight of Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro especially in this arc are quite apparent.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Yep, that, or a "cheat" (like Nightmare Luffy for example) or both. But current Luffy shouldn't be able to 1v1 him under any normal circumstances.



'Monster Trio" was never literally in the Manga. Nami has described Luffy, Zoro, Sanji as "monsters", as they are indeed monstrously stronger than her.
The term "Monster Trio" is entirely a fan term, but the fans don't want to accept that. They just ignore Jinbe the Yonko-pusher.
Nah, she said it clearly as Monster Trio. Not just Monsters, but mean the same thing as the 3 are regarded heavily as top strongest of the crew.

Jimbei push her, not hurt her though. Plus its in a less fat form. That doesn't mean anything as she wasn't full power much still. Also no way he is Yonko lvl as if he was, why didn't he challenge Big Mom to a fight early especially for Fishman Island instead serving her before?

Lets not get off topic here. Maybe continue this to power level thread for a talk like this.
 

nik87

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as Oda been showcasing it in serious moments.
Do you mind showing those moments because I cant remember any?
The term been use often when they enter NW and in other arcs.
Monster trio, afaik, has been used only once and even that is questionable due to unofficial translations.
As for you examples....Ummmm....Since when Bepo as strong as the other second in command? Is he even that? As well as Vito? Bege also can't compete that much even with the second in commands. Plus yet to see Killer in what he dies so we can't insert him here.
It doesnt matter if Bepo is strong as other 2nd in commmand, the point is that he is second in command as he has been the most highlighted cahracter among Heart Pirates, like I claimed, the captain and his right-hand man.
The only one highlighted besides Vito was Gotti but its clear that the second in command is Vito.
The most highlighted character besides Kidd is Killer, he's a supernova as well.
Oda sticks to that pattern of Captain+1 and he does that with Luffy and Zoro and all others that I mentioned and those that I didnt mention.
Also Idk been cool 3rd or equal second in command in other crews like Oden been hype up in this arc. Even has Conqueror's Haki and was apart of Roger Pirates. There also that other crew mate of Bege with a machine gun for a arm as well, but said my peace of the crew.
All crew of PK was probably impressive but the difference between Oden and Rayleigh is that barely anyone knows Oden while everyone knows who the Dark King is(except Luffy).
Sanji is a notable combatant of SHP but there is only one first mate.
 

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Honestly I would wait before I would proclaim the WSS as Yonko Tier. Mihawks duels with Shanks happened in the past. Preskip Mihawk tied with Vista and the recent databook revealed them as worthy foes. His shot never reached Whitebeard as Mihawk is unable to cut diamond. Mihawk was also seen doing peaceful gardening with Perona in one of the Cover Stories.
I think he is a red Herring. His power, too, has declined because he simply doesn't care that much anymore. He already challenged everyone until there was no one left and that was in the past. Now he already has chosen a succesor: Zoro. Mihawk agreed to train Zoro even though he knows Zoro wants his title. He would have never done that if he hadn't already come to acceptance about losing his title sometime in the future. He inadvertly already gave up on being the strongest.
It's implied that the other two Shishibukai that returned to Paradise did become weaker, why would Mihawk be an exception?
I think this is also where Zoro got his eye scar from. Zoro's growth rate was to rapid for training-mode Mihawk, so Mihawk had to get serious and injured Zoro.
Nah I got it. That's just my opinion that Shanks=Mihawk

Didnt wanna start the whole arguement over again lol
 

King Moe

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Do you mind showing those moments because I cant remember any?

Monster trio, afaik, has been used only once and even that is questionable due to unofficial translations.

It doesnt matter if Bepo is strong as other 2nd in commmand, the point is that he is second in command as he has been the most highlighted cahracter among Heart Pirates, like I claimed, the captain and his right-hand man.
The only one highlighted besides Vito was Gotti but its clear that the second in command is Vito.
The most highlighted character besides Kidd is Killer, he's a supernova as well.
Oda sticks to that pattern of Captain+1 and he does that with Luffy and Zoro and all others that I mentioned and those that I didnt mention.

All crew of PK was probably impressive but the difference between Oden and Rayleigh is that barely anyone knows Oden while everyone knows who the Dark King is(except Luffy).
Sanji is a notable combatant of SHP but there is only one first mate.
Arlong Park Arc, Logue Town Arc, Little Garden Arc, Alabasta Arc, Skypiea Arc, Davy Back Fight Arc, Water 7 Arc, Enies Lobby Arc, Thiller Bark Arc, Sabody Archapielo Arc (Sorry if I misspell this one), Training Arcs (Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro were the only ones with fight-orientated trainings to get stronger), Fishman Island Arc, Punk Hazard Arc, and now Wano Arc going to insert it more as with King and Queen (If Zoro faces King as I still see him as Orochi's opponent if his strength is legit and Law for King) as their future opponents for them and they even argue very similar like those two begin with. You can't really denied this at this point about how Oda's have these two with their relationship of pitting them against each other in many moments.

No, those were legit translations. Most, if not all referred to them as either Monsters or Monster Trio. With that many translations, don't think it's a mistake. It's pretty official for a long time now.

Also there that former slave guy for Heart's Pirates too who looks equal, if not stronger than Bepo and he is referred as '3rd' in charge or Law's top guys. Not denying there is spotlight for Captain and his First Mate like your saying, but doesn't mean they are strongest beside the captain or any other spotlight to rival them as most of those crews you mention have '3rd' or someone equal to the '2nd', so still doesn't takes away anything especially next chapter Sanji and Law are having spotlight and been so lately like the rest except for only Killer who we have yet to seen or what he is truly capable of.

That because he didn't want to be too much in pirate life as he has a Kingdom to rule, but pretty sure he has to be as good as Rayleigh and close to Roger if he was given Conqueror's Haki, so doubt he was a slouch. Just because someone isn't as well known in the series or community, doesn't mean they aren't strong. BlackBeard and his crew prove that as we still don't know much about them deeply, but still a majorly tough threats. Again not taking away Zoro being first mate, but we seen Oda putting Sanji as Luffy's Left-Handed Man and equal with Zoro who is Right-Handed Man. Plus when Luffy is Yonko lvl, Sanji and Zoro would be his Yonko Commanders due to being the strongest in the group as well.
 

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Armament Haki isn't sth anyone - much less a lil kid - can use without training or even unconsciously unlike CoC.
Big Mom was already ridiculously strong as a child and had that uncanny ability. Kaido might also have had sth similar as a lil child.


So you don't like his design. Not that I do but it'll matter little when he backs it up with ridiculous firepower (pun intended).
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Did anyone notice Jack's tendency to cause destruction and chaos? Might be due to him emulating King and Queen.
They were introduced to be much more brutal than Jack (treating him like a pushover) with King being the worst in brutality and destruction.
I think that, at least, big mom has a special aptitude for armament haki, of not a different ability all together. Just from the fact that her focus has an adverse effect on her defense. (Referring to how her freaking out about the picture made her vulnerable) Possibly, and this could work for Kaidou as well, she is able to weaponize her soul as a defense even separate from her fruit. Makes me wonder if haki and souls are interchangeable (as vocabulary I mean, meaning haki = soul) which would make sense really.
 

nik87

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Arlong Park Arc, Logue Town Arc, Little Garden Arc, Alabasta Arc, Skypiea Arc, Davy Back Fight Arc, Water 7 Arc, Enies Lobby Arc, Thiller Bark Arc, Sabody Archapielo Arc (Sorry if I misspell this one), Training Arcs (Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro were the only ones with fight-orientated trainings to get stronger), Fishman Island Arc, Punk Hazard Arc, and now Wano Arc going to insert it more as with King and Queen (If Zoro faces King as I still see him as Orochi's opponent if his strength is legit and Law for King) as their future opponents for them and they even argue very similar like those two begin with. You can't really denied this at this point about how Oda's have these two with their relationship of pitting them against each other in many moments.
Their rivalry started in Arlong park and that has been the only serious confrontation from what I remember and it was due to their different beliefs.
As for listing almost every arc I am not sure what you meant but I dont remember them going at each other nowhere that much and when they did it was comical.
No, those were legit translations. Most, if not all referred to them as either Monsters or Monster Trio. With that many translations, don't think it's a mistake. It's pretty official for a long time now.
Only Viz is official and even they dont get it right always. Monster trio was used only once and someone recently provided a panel for that instance.
The monster term in the crew is used for anyone with insane strength, with Franky joining another monster showed up, Chopper went into his own monster form and now with Jinbe joining there are too many monsters. If monster trio existed it was long time ago, there are more monsters in the crew now.

Also there that former slave guy for Heart's Pirates too who looks equal, if not stronger than Bepo and he is referred as '3rd' in charge or Law's top guys. Not denying there is spotlight for Captain and his First Mate like your saying, but doesn't mean they are strongest beside the captain or any other spotlight to rival them as most of those crews you mention have '3rd' or someone equal to the '2nd', so still doesn't takes away anything especially next chapter Sanji and Law are having spotlight and been so lately like the rest except for only Killer who we have yet to seen or what he is truly capable of.
Jean Bart is a notable combatant of Heart Pirates for sure but being 3rd is doubtful since Hachi and Penguin had more screen time and were core crew members before Jean Bart joined. He may be stronger than them but not stronger than Bepo who is a mink with potential Sulong power-up.
We still have to see a crew where 3rd in line is as impressive as the vice-captain.

That because he didn't want to be too much in pirate life as he has a Kingdom to rule, but pretty sure he has to be as good as Rayleigh and close to Roger if he was given Conqueror's Haki, so doubt he was a slouch. Just because someone isn't as well known in the series or community, doesn't mean they aren't strong. BlackBeard and his crew prove that as we still don't know much about them deeply, but still a majorly tough threats. Again not taking away Zoro being first mate, but we seen Oda putting Sanji as Luffy's Left-Handed Man and equal with Zoro who is Right-Handed Man. Plus when Luffy is Yonko lvl, Sanji and Zoro would be his Yonko Commanders due to being the strongest in the group as well.
I don't think Oden is anywhere close to Rayleigh based on Rayleigh's hype and his feats. He isnt close to Scopper Gaban either because those are the 3 highlighter members of Roger pirates. Also, Oden is not a core member, he only joined at a certain point. Having CoC doesnt mean being close to Rayleigh. We still have to see someone who is strong without being known. Blackbeard's case is specific and was highlighted.
I am not sure how much spotlight Sanji will get after Jinbe joins the crew because he is a pure combatant without a specific role as Sanji's.
It's not excluded that all crew get commander roles if it ends up mimicking Blackbeard's crew or Shanks' crew as it seems to have similar pattern.
Still, the captain and his right-hand man are a re-occurring pattern and we still have to see someone keeping up with vice-captains hype especially considering the instances when people thought Zoro was the captain or when they wondered what's the captain like when his right hand is so awesome.
 

King Moe

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Their rivalry started in Arlong park and that has been the only serious confrontation from what I remember and it was due to their different beliefs.
As for listing almost every arc I am not sure what you meant but I dont remember them going at each other nowhere that much and when they did it was comical.

Only Viz is official and even they dont get it right always. Monster trio was used only once and someone recently provided a panel for that instance.
The monster term in the crew is used for anyone with insane strength, with Franky joining another monster showed up, Chopper went into his own monster form and now with Jinbe joining there are too many monsters. If monster trio existed it was long time ago, there are more monsters in the crew now.


Jean Bart is a notable combatant of Heart Pirates for sure but being 3rd is doubtful since Hachi and Penguin had more screen time and were core crew members before Jean Bart joined. He may be stronger than them but not stronger than Bepo who is a mink with potential Sulong power-up.
We still have to see a crew where 3rd in line is as impressive as the vice-captain.


I don't think Oden is anywhere close to Rayleigh based on Rayleigh's hype and his feats. He isnt close to Scopper Gaban either because those are the 3 highlighter members of Roger pirates. Also, Oden is not a core member, he only joined at a certain point. Having CoC doesnt mean being close to Rayleigh. We still have to see someone who is strong without being known. Blackbeard's case is specific and was highlighted.
I am not sure how much spotlight Sanji will get after Jinbe joins the crew because he is a pure combatant without a specific role as Sanji's.
It's not excluded that all crew get commander roles if it ends up mimicking Blackbeard's crew or Shanks' crew as it seems to have similar pattern.
Still, the captain and his right-hand man are a re-occurring pattern and we still have to see someone keeping up with vice-captains hype especially considering the instances when people thought Zoro was the captain or when they wondered what's the captain like when his right hand is so awesome.
They were serious with who they fought and wanting to do better than the other. You have to check all the arcs I mention as they were there. I can't go too detail about it as it take long while to post, but these arcs are ones with evidence on how Oda treats the rivalry and work with it even serious moments from competing, the two respecting each other (even they won't openly admit it), their beliefs, working together, etc..

It wasn't only Viz who translated it as others did and still got similar results. Also don't think Franky was referred as a monster neither was Jimbei and Chopper is said to be that is due to how he looks, not because of his power. The trio are called Monsters for their 'Monstrous Strength' of the crew and been shown and called out for their power many times. Not saying the others not strong or anything, but they haven't been in the same line or reference as the same as these three in any way.

Just because a character has more screen time doesn't mean they are stronger than someone else or more important. We haven't seen BlackBeard Pirates for a long time in NW, so by that logic, that means they are weaker than anyone else on screen more. That doesn't make sense on how your going about it. Pretty sure Jean is equal to with Bepo in power since pre-timeskip he was able handle a Pacifista more than Bepo who got hurt out of it. By that showing pretty sure both are equalish even with Bepo's Su Long form as we don't know how strong Jean gotten on his end either. So both have to show more worth on their side. Don't think just because your 2nd in command, no one can equal with you or even surpassed you.

Still so far out of a lot of people in Roger's group, he has Conqueror's Haki and was probably main forces if he did have it and could compare with Rayleigh and Scooper if he had it as well or at that position of power. He was kinda hinted as it been mention many times Roger's group of crewmmates were something else including him since was traveling with them along the way to Raftel. Also what does that have to do with anything with him joining later, that he isn't apart of the core? Strawhats have members joined later and become apart of the core as well other different crews. That isn't fact and if your saying because of strength order of when you join, that doesn't make sense as well.

The number of when you joined, doesn't take away your strength the slightest. It's the character's power themselves as example by that logic, Yasopp is stronger than Ben Beckenman who some said is suppose to be the 'Zoro' while Yasopp is the 'Usopp', but from what we seen the flashback of Shanks getting a start of his journey, he met Yasopp first which means he is first mate and Ben came in later, so that means he is weaker than Yasopp (Though haven't seen them in a fight, so hard to say, but you get what I am getting at). Oh with Shiryu who joined BB Pirates and he was 5th and 6th to joined, yet he was the leader of the 1st BB Ship I believe. The order you come in doesn't take away your power as it's the character themselves who make themselves strong.

Which is why Sanji who despite coming in 5th (Well technically 4th since Nami at the time didn't 'fully trust' or 'joined' the crew for real as betray them later) doesn't mean anything as he is still stronger than Nami and Usopp. Actually Nami was the first one meeting Luffy before, so by that logic Zoro weaker than her, huh XD? Though seriously yeah, it changes nothing what order you come in when joining, so for all we know, Oden could have been equal to Roger by Oda's mind, but we have to wait and see, but so far with the hype and his background so far, he was a fighter and strong one at that if he has COC since many COC so far prove to be quite strong and legit to have it. Oda doesn't put that on anybody for laughs or minor thing.

Also Jimbei won't change much with anything. Sanji still apart of the crew and main fighter. Nothing so far shows Jimbei is at their level much since like many others, we never seen him in a full fight and he only fought a few things with mostly fodder. Don't think it changes anything from the dynamic especially right now in Wano Arc, Oda is setting up future opponents for Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro while Jimbei probably will come later to the party and fight more Big Mom's people than Kaido's people.

Not taking away about hype of Captain and Second-In-Command, but just saying along with that there also fighters in there in some crew ships and not just those two rankings to look out for only especially Oda is making Luffy's group another 'Yonko Group' which means it be a Yonko and his Commanders which he obviously will have more than just one.
 

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Their rivalry started in Arlong park and that has been the only serious confrontation from what I remember and it was due to their different beliefs.
As for listing almost every arc I am not sure what you meant but I dont remember them going at each other nowhere that much and when they did it was comical.

Only Viz is official and even they dont get it right always. Monster trio was used only once and someone recently provided a panel for that instance.
The monster term in the crew is used for anyone with insane strength, with Franky joining another monster showed up, Chopper went into his own monster form and now with Jinbe joining there are too many monsters. If monster trio existed it was long time ago, there are more monsters in the crew now.


Jean Bart is a notable combatant of Heart Pirates for sure but being 3rd is doubtful since Hachi and Penguin had more screen time and were core crew members before Jean Bart joined. He may be stronger than them but not stronger than Bepo who is a mink with potential Sulong power-up.
We still have to see a crew where 3rd in line is as impressive as the vice-captain.


I don't think Oden is anywhere close to Rayleigh based on Rayleigh's hype and his feats. He isnt close to Scopper Gaban either because those are the 3 highlighter members of Roger pirates. Also, Oden is not a core member, he only joined at a certain point. Having CoC doesnt mean being close to Rayleigh. We still have to see someone who is strong without being known. Blackbeard's case is specific and was highlighted.
I am not sure how much spotlight Sanji will get after Jinbe joins the crew because he is a pure combatant without a specific role as Sanji's.
It's not excluded that all crew get commander roles if it ends up mimicking Blackbeard's crew or Shanks' crew as it seems to have similar pattern.
Still, the captain and his right-hand man are a re-occurring pattern and we still have to see someone keeping up with vice-captains hype especially considering the instances when people thought Zoro was the captain or when they wondered what's the captain like when his right hand is so awesome.
It's hard to take you seriously as anything other than a very devoted Zoro fanboy when you talk like this. Like, does Zoro being terrified that he can't protect Usopp and Nami from, and then smiling in relief and ignoring the fight once Sanji arrives count as evidence for you? Or earlier in that arc when they angrily blame each other for not being their to protect Usopp? They both see each other as protectors of the weaker members.

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-413-page-19.html

That's a good page showing their respect for each other strength in a serious context.

Of course a recent example is after the time skip where they both destroyed the pacifista and tried to take credit for it on their own.

I don't know why you fight so hard to put one of them down, having them be equal or near equal, which is what Oda has shown time and again, doesn't make one "worse".
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Whoa whoa whoa there. Rayleigh swole af. Source: that sexy panel of him greeting Luffy at Amazon Lily after swimming through the flippin' Calm Belt.
Haha, i mean giant like Kaido, he is buff indeed, but he's not much taller than Luffy from the pictures I see. Like Katakurri was huge compared to Luffy, and Kaido is even bigger. But Shanks and Rayleigh look like regular humans, normal height.
 

nik87

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You misunderstood several things in my last post.
They were serious with who they fought and wanting to do better than the other. You have to check all the arcs I mention as they were there. I can't go too detail about it as it take long while to post, but these arcs are ones with evidence on how Oda treats the rivalry and work with it even serious moments from competing, the two respecting each other (even they won't openly admit it), their beliefs, working together, etc..
I was saying that their in-crew fights are comical and that strength there doesnt matter, their rivalry is not at stake no matter how big the gap between their combat capabilities is. Seems like we went to some different topic but still even the enemies they take on are ranked higher for Zoro and lower for Sanji(King>Queen, Mr1>Mr2, Zoro's opponent in FI being the only one aside from Luffy's to transform as well, ...)
It wasn't only Viz who translated it as others did and still got similar results. Also don't think Franky was referred as a monster neither was Jimbei and Chopper is said to be that is due to how he looks, not because of his power. The trio are called Monsters for their 'Monstrous Strength' of the crew and been shown and called out for their power many times. Not saying the others not strong or anything, but they haven't been in the same line or reference as the same as these three in any way.
Viz is the only official translator, other's are fanmade but the correctness of translations varies for all of them. Franky was monstrously strong which was confirmed by Lucci by acknowledging him surpassing the human limits and was portrayed as Luffy's equal at the start of Water 7. He still is incredibly strong being a highly modified cyborg.
Jinbe was referred to as monster by Arlong and him being a Shichibukai says enough for his strength. Chopper literally has a form called Monster point.
I am sure that all 5 would be called monsters now for their monstrous strength, Chopper excluded because its not permanent form.
Just because a character has more screen time doesn't mean they are stronger than someone else or more important. We haven't seen BlackBeard Pirates for a long time in NW, so by that logic, that means they are weaker than anyone else on screen more. That doesn't make sense on how your going about it. Pretty sure Jean is equal to with Bepo in power since pre-timeskip he was able handle a Pacifista more than Bepo who got hurt out of it. By that showing pretty sure both are equalish even with Bepo's Su Long form as we don't know how strong Jean gotten on his end either. So both have to show more worth on their side. Don't think just because your 2nd in command, no one can equal with you or even surpassed you.
This is what you misunderstood and it has nothing to do with the entire crew not having much screen time like BB pirates. I said, Bepo is the one who was focused on the most besides Law and he is the right-hand man most likely while Hachi and Penguin have more screen time than Jean Bart due to being the core crew. We still have to see both Bepo and Jean-Bart fight and showing what they can before making definitive claims but we know for sure that Bepo has potential power-up from Sulong form. Like i said, we still have to see a crew where 2nd in line was equalled or surpassed by 3rd in line or someone joining later.
Still so far out of a lot of people in Roger's group, he has Conqueror's Haki and was probably main forces if he did have it and could compare with Rayleigh and Scooper if he had it as well or at that position of power. He was kinda hinted as it been mention many times Roger's group of crewmmates were something else including him since was traveling with them along the way to Raftel. Also what does that have to do with anything with him joining later, that he isn't apart of the core? Strawhats have members joined later and become apart of the core as well other different crews. That isn't fact and if your saying because of strength order of when you join, that doesn't make sense as well.
Oden is not a part of the core crew because he only sailed with them shortly, same as Inuarashi and Nekomamushi arent core crew because, same like Oden, they joined Roger only for a short period of time. They joined Whitebeard as well and they weren't part of the core crew there either. From what we know, not even Crocus was part of the core crew and he was only recruited once Roger found out about his illness. Oden knew the secrets to poneglyphs and thats most likely what his purpose on Roger's ship was, to read em and get them to Raftel. He is not like Robin who has been a core part of Strawhats.
The number of when you joined, doesn't take away your strength the slightest. It's the character's power themselves as example by that logic, Yasopp is stronger than Ben Beckenman who some said is suppose to be the 'Zoro' while Yasopp is the 'Usopp', but from what we seen the flashback of Shanks getting a start of his journey, he met Yasopp first which means he is first mate and Ben came in later, so that means he is weaker than Yasopp (Though haven't seen them in a fight, so hard to say, but you get what I am getting at). Oh with Shiryu who joined BB Pirates and he was 5th and 6th to joined, yet he was the leader of the 1st BB Ship I believe. The order you come in doesn't take away your power as it's the character themselves who make themselves strong.
I never said it did but I did say that its very unlikely for someone to outperform a right-hand man. We still have to see such an example. Blackbeard pirates may be an example of such but they are a very specific group, they dont trust Shilliew even tho his combat capabilities are worthy of being 2nd in line.
Which is why Sanji who despite coming in 5th (Well technically 4th since Nami at the time didn't 'fully trust' or 'joined' the crew for real as betray them later) doesn't mean anything as he is still stronger than Nami and Usopp. Actually Nami was the first one meeting Luffy before, so by that logic Zoro weaker than her, huh XD? Though seriously yeah, it changes nothing what order you come in when joining, so for all we know, Oden could have been equal to Roger by Oda's mind, but we have to wait and see, but so far with the hype and his background so far, he was a fighter and strong one at that if he has COC since many COC so far prove to be quite strong and legit to have it. Oda doesn't put that on anybody for laughs or minor thing.
As I said, you misunderstood it. Also, Nami didnt meet Luffy before Zoro. Oden was barely able to beat Shutenmaru, he's nowhere close to Roger lol, this is ridiculous.
Also Jimbei won't change much with anything. Sanji still apart of the crew and main fighter. Nothing so far shows Jimbei is at their level much since like many others, we never seen him in a full fight and he only fought a few things with mostly fodder. Don't think it changes anything from the dynamic especially right now in Wano Arc, Oda is setting up future opponents for Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro while Jimbei probably will come later to the party and fight more Big Mom's people than Kaido's people.
I think the opposite, Jinbe changes a lot and I think that's the reason Oda keeps him away from the crew, because he disrupts their power ranking. And what do you mean that nothing shows that Jinbe is at their level? They are not on Jinbe's level, lol. The guy is monstrously strong, since when are Sanji and Zoro a level above Shichibukai? He fought only fodder? He clashed with Big Mom several times. You underestimate Jinbe heavily.
Not taking away about hype of Captain and Second-In-Command, but just saying along with that there also fighters in there in some crew ships and not just those two rankings to look out for only especially Oda is making Luffy's group another 'Yonko Group' which means it be a Yonko and his Commanders which he obviously will have more than just one.
It can happen that Zoro, Sanji and Jinbe are main combatants of the crew but it's also possible that they will equal Blackbeard's 10 titanic captains.

It's hard to take you seriously as anything other than a very devoted Zoro fanboy when you talk like this. Like, does Zoro being terrified that he can't protect Usopp and Nami from, and then smiling in relief and ignoring the fight once Sanji arrives count as evidence for you? Or earlier in that arc when they angrily blame each other for not being their to protect Usopp? They both see each other as protectors of the weaker members.
http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-413-page-19.html
That's a good page showing their respect for each other strength in a serious context.
Of course a recent example is after the time skip where they both destroyed the pacifista and tried to take credit for it on their own.
I don't know why you fight so hard to put one of them down, having them be equal or near equal, which is what Oda has shown time and again, doesn't make one "worse".
And you expect me to take you seriously for shitting on Zoro for not being able to save Nami and Usopp while clashing with Kaku?
You just had to say something but it wasn't smart. :3c
 

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Nah I got it. That's just my opinion that Shanks=Mihawk

Didnt wanna start the whole arguement over again lol
Shanks=Mihawk might very well be possible. We know safe to nothing about him. Previously we thought his vast strenght stopped the Marineford War, but his recent visit to the Gorosei might suggest otherwise. It could be that the war wasn't stopped because of his strenght, but because of who he actually is. So who is Shanks, that he earned the trust of Roger and believes the future is Luffy, but also can freely visit and talk with the Gorosei, those that killed Roger and now Luffy's on their list as well?
Personally, I think he is related to Imu, mostly based on that both mysteries, along with the Giant Straw Hat, popped up in the same arc. And no, I don't think Shanks is evil.
 

~Charging Lightning~

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You misunderstood several things in my last post.
And you expect me to take you seriously for shitting on Zoro for not being able to save Nami and Usopp while clashing with Kaku?
You just had to say something but it wasn't smart. :3c
It's quote ironic that you start your post with "you misunderstood" yet at the end of your post you could not have missed the point @thedude was trying to make harder if you tried :lmao. He wasn't shitting on Zoro for not saving nami and Usopp, he was pointing out the amount of courage and respect Zoro has for Sanji since he was so relieved when he showed up.
'Monster Trio" was never literally in the Manga. Nami has described Luffy, Zoro, Sanji as "monsters", as they are indeed monstrously stronger than her.
The term "Monster Trio" is entirely a fan term, but the fans don't want to accept that. They just ignore Jinbe the Yonko-pusher.
I don't wanna jump back into the monster trio debate again (been there, done that) but while I think Jinbe has better feats than both Zoro and Sanji right now, you shouldn't go overestimating his feat against Big Mom. Big Mom at that moment was so weak that Nami injured her, Chopper countered her, and Brook blitzed her.
 

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And you expect me to take you seriously for shitting on Zoro for not being able to save Nami and Usopp while clashing with Kaku?
You just had to say something but it wasn't smart. :3c
...where did i shit on Zoro? I said it showed his respect for Sanji's strength. Kaku and Jabra were fairly equal in strength, and Zoro couldn't get away from Kaku to save Usopp. He was relieved when Sanji showed up, and after that ignored that fight because he knew he could rely on him. That's not shitting on Zoro (which I haven't and won't do, because he's badass, and I don't dislike him at all!). That was a direct response to your request for backup.

Reading comprehension is difficult for some...but I have hope!
 

nik87

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It's quote ironic that you start your post with "you misunderstood" yet at the end of your post you could not have missed the point @thedude was trying to make harder if you tried :lmao. He wasn't shitting on Zoro for not saving nami and Usopp, he was pointing out the amount of courage and respect Zoro has for Sanji since he was so relieved when he showed up.
I may have been carried away by writing the responses above. :teehee
@thedude My bad, misunderstood your point. However, I never said that Zoro doesnt see Sanji as a protector of the crew, not sure why you pointed that out.
 

thedude

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I may have been carried away by writing the responses above. :teehee
@thedude My bad, misunderstood your point. However, I never said that Zoro doesnt see Sanji as a protector of the crew, not sure why you pointed that out.
No worries. I pointed it out to show that Zoro and Sanji, while they bicker, view each other as equals or near equals. In that same arc, they argued earlier about why one of them didn't beat up Franky's crew before so they wouldn't have beaten up Usopp. They'll also regularly have scenes where someone will be worried about a weaker character and they will say "don't worry, he's with them".

I really don't care to debate who is "stronger". It is probably Zoro by a hair, but nothing worth getting worked up over. I just dislike the constant comments by people like you that work so hard to bring one character down, and to antagonize fans of that character. It's so pointless. We're all fans of the same manga, let's get along and talk about the cool things we hope to see instead of trying to start flame wars with fans of certain characters.

(also...i can't wait for spoilers, this back and forth has been going on too long, lol. let's get back to the story!)
 

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You misunderstood several things in my last post.

I was saying that their in-crew fights are comical and that strength there doesnt matter, their rivalry is not at stake no matter how big the gap between their combat capabilities is. Seems like we went to some different topic but still even the enemies they take on are ranked higher for Zoro and lower for Sanji(King>Queen, Mr1>Mr2, Zoro's opponent in FI being the only one aside from Luffy's to transform as well, ...)

Viz is the only official translator, other's are fanmade but the correctness of translations varies for all of them. Franky was monstrously strong which was confirmed by Lucci by acknowledging him surpassing the human limits and was portrayed as Luffy's equal at the start of Water 7. He still is incredibly strong being a highly modified cyborg.
Jinbe was referred to as monster by Arlong and him being a Shichibukai says enough for his strength. Chopper literally has a form called Monster point.
I am sure that all 5 would be called monsters now for their monstrous strength, Chopper excluded because its not permanent form.

This is what you misunderstood and it has nothing to do with the entire crew not having much screen time like BB pirates. I said, Bepo is the one who was focused on the most besides Law and he is the right-hand man most likely while Hachi and Penguin have more screen time than Jean Bart due to being the core crew. We still have to see both Bepo and Jean-Bart fight and showing what they can before making definitive claims but we know for sure that Bepo has potential power-up from Sulong form. Like i said, we still have to see a crew where 2nd in line was equalled or surpassed by 3rd in line or someone joining later.

Oden is not a part of the core crew because he only sailed with them shortly, same as Inuarashi and Nekomamushi arent core crew because, same like Oden, they joined Roger only for a short period of time. They joined Whitebeard as well and they weren't part of the core crew there either. From what we know, not even Crocus was part of the core crew and he was only recruited once Roger found out about his illness. Oden knew the secrets to poneglyphs and thats most likely what his purpose on Roger's ship was, to read em and get them to Raftel. He is not like Robin who has been a core part of Strawhats.

I never said it did but I did say that its very unlikely for someone to outperform a right-hand man. We still have to see such an example. Blackbeard pirates may be an example of such but they are a very specific group, they dont trust Shilliew even tho his combat capabilities are worthy of being 2nd in line.

As I said, you misunderstood it. Also, Nami didnt meet Luffy before Zoro. Oden was barely able to beat Shutenmaru, he's nowhere close to Roger lol, this is ridiculous.

I think the opposite, Jinbe changes a lot and I think that's the reason Oda keeps him away from the crew, because he disrupts their power ranking. And what do you mean that nothing shows that Jinbe is at their level? They are not on Jinbe's level, lol. The guy is monstrously strong, since when are Sanji and Zoro a level above Shichibukai? He fought only fodder? He clashed with Big Mom several times. You underestimate Jinbe heavily.

It can happen that Zoro, Sanji and Jinbe are main combatants of the crew but it's also possible that they will equal Blackbeard's 10 titanic captains.
Pretty much is whether it's comical fighting or not. They compete with each other and both acknowledge on not losing out ot the other as shown many arcs and as those opponents you mention, they are equally match too as Mr. 2 and Mr. 1 fought each other evenly and have their issues and King and Queen are openly arguing and probably fought before if that's the case. If one was stronger than the other by Superior margins, I doubt they talk like that as they would do so with Kaido himself. They are evenly match just like how Sanji and Zoro are with how Oda portrays them often.

You can't say it's fanmade as excuse since everyone who define it are fans of the series whether official or unofficial. Even unofficial translations got right words in who translate it and regardless they are still got the same outcome no matter what. Again your facts with Franky, Jimbei, and Chopper aren't the same as compare to those 3 as now your saying them are evenly match with them due to be refer as monsters as well, but we seen how Oda handle them compare to these three and it's different as it's more about their appearance and race than more power (Not saying they don't have any, but difference on why they are refer as 'Monsters' compare to the Monster Trio).

I get what you mean, but again your putting our claims as well since we haven't seen Bepo if he ever mastered or use it as well. Same with Jean on having a power up too as we don't know until they are shown. So until then, going back what we seen pre-timeskip and so far now, still is equal between the two with Jean Bart a bit ahead on his side.

Luffy and the others are gaining more crewmates being Jimbei and 3 more others. So saying because he came in late that he is not a true member, is kinda bad sense to put as you can't determine when someone will join and it takes away of a adventure of people joining later. Whether he came early or late, doesn't take away from him in core members and main strength if Roger want him to join with them and Rayleigh and Scooper didn't have complaints about it. Plus your argument they were just there to be there to served purpose is also flawed as former members like Crocus and Oden enjoy their time with Roger and his crew and were definitely close, not just for the sake for sailing for the first time or short one. For all we know, it wasn't that short as we don't know the adventures that deeply. Your putting claims that they were when we don't know what happen and looking at Oda hyping Oden and with the crew long enough that they seen his family (with Momosuke, his son) to boot, shows there was deep trust and friendship between them. Crocus the same as well with having a good time with them and wasn't just there to be there for his illness alone.

Well Shiryu out performed whoever was first mate and got 1st ship instead of that person and maybe Ben Beckenman if he is the 'Zoro' of the group despite not being First Mate. I get what your saying, but Oda already show it that even if you came late to join, you can still be equal or surpassed the first mate in the end. So it proves the point of how crews can be and not really "first come, first serve" every time when it comes to power-ranking in the end.

You never know. We never seen Oden how he was during Roger's crew and could be very strong especially being a Shogun for a long time and help reformed the land through brains and brawn. Oda isn't done showing more about Oden, so you never know how strong he could have been, but with him having Conqueror's Haki, it pretty proof enough, he was more in the frontlines than sitting in the back. I was using that as a example, I am not that serious about it, but again you never know with Oda on how he wants to hype up someone, so be prepared just in case if later on he mentions he duel with Rayleigh or something. Not overhyping, just saying as I know many didn't expect us to think he had COC when we heard about him, but now he does.

Not really, Jimbei has shown nothing to be above or in the Monster Trio yet at all. Please don't use Big Mom excuse when he push her back due to having no 'fat' to help her. Luffy uses Gear 4th and couldn't push her back while she was full power, but Jimbei did when she was in another form, so you can't compare the two. Plus him being Yonko lvl strong messes up the dynamic and make no sense on who he fought before in the past if he was that strong. If he was, why didn't he face Big Mom 1 vs 1 instead of serving her and save Fishman Island from her wrath to begin with? That because he got lucky in pushing her back, but even then, it didn't damage her at all and still kept coming. He even said be prepare to abandon ship if confronting her and they were about to be dead along with the ship even as they fought back.

I can see that happening with those 3 as the Yonko Commanders and what you mean by 10 titanic captains? BB's main crew who take charge of each ship individually?
 

nik87

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Pretty much is whether it's comical fighting or not. They compete with each other and both acknowledge on not losing out ot the other as shown many arcs and as those opponents you mention, they are equally match too as Mr. 2 and Mr. 1 fought each other evenly and have their issues and King and Queen are openly arguing and probably fought before if that's the case. If one was stronger than the other by Superior margins, I doubt they talk like that as they would do so with Kaido himself. They are evenly match just like how Sanji and Zoro are with how Oda portrays them often.
Well, you can deny it but that's not true. The hierarchy of each organization has stronger members the closer they are to the boss. Mr0 being the most powerful, mr1 is next in line, then mr2, then we have an exception of mr3 being weaker than mr4 but was explained why...
Kaido's card theme is same, King is more powerful than Queen. Margins are small indeed but its still sorted by how powerful they are.
You can't say it's fanmade as excuse since everyone who define it are fans of the series whether official or unofficial. Even unofficial translations got right words in who translate it and regardless they are still got the same outcome no matter what. Again your facts with Franky, Jimbei, and Chopper aren't the same as compare to those 3 as now your saying them are evenly match with them due to be refer as monsters as well, but we seen how Oda handle them compare to these three and it's different as it's more about their appearance and race than more power (Not saying they don't have any, but difference on why they are refer as 'Monsters' compare to the Monster Trio).
I would bet on Jinbe being a bigger monster than Zoro and Sanji, Franky shouldn't be above them but he is quite close. When was it last time that term Monster Trio was used? When someone says monster about SH members they better include Jinbe, especially if he is the 3rd top commanding member of the crew.
Luffy and the others are gaining more crewmates being Jimbei and 3 more others. So saying because he came in late that he is not a true member, is kinda bad sense to put as you can't determine when someone will join and it takes away of a adventure of people joining later. Whether he came early or late, doesn't take away from him in core members and main strength if Roger want him to join with them and Rayleigh and Scooper didn't have complaints about it. Plus your argument they were just there to be there to served purpose is also flawed as former members like Crocus and Oden enjoy their time with Roger and his crew and were definitely close, not just for the sake for sailing for the first time or short one. For all we know, it wasn't that short as we don't know the adventures that deeply. Your putting claims that they were when we don't know what happen and looking at Oda hyping Oden and with the crew long enough that they seen his family (with Momosuke, his son) to boot, shows there was deep trust and friendship between them. Crocus the same as well with having a good time with them and wasn't just there to be there for his illness alone.
You are still misunderstanding me. I am not saying that Jinbe is not a core, I am saying that Oden wasnt because he served two crews. You cant be a core member of two rivaling crews, it's not possible.
Crocus was recruited only because Roger got sick, to keep his illness in check. I am not debating if he had fun and if he was one of them, he was, we know that.
Well Shiryu out performed whoever was first mate and got 1st ship instead of that person and maybe Ben Beckenman if he is the 'Zoro' of the group despite not being First Mate. I get what your saying, but Oda already show it that even if you came late to join, you can still be equal or surpassed the first mate in the end. So it proves the point of how crews can be and not really "first come, first serve" every time when it comes to power-ranking in the end.
Shiryu is captain of 2nd ship. Not sure what you meant with Beckman but he is the first mate of RHP. Blackbeard pirates are the only example of newcomer being more impressive than first mate of the crew and thats with with Burgess not having a DF yet, he may very well deserve the possition after he gets a power up.
You never know. We never seen Oden how he was during Roger's crew and could be very strong especially being a Shogun for a long time and help reformed the land through brains and brawn. Oda isn't done showing more about Oden, so you never know how strong he could have been, but with him having Conqueror's Haki, it pretty proof enough, he was more in the frontlines than sitting in the back. I was using that as a example, I am not that serious about it, but again you never know with Oda on how he wants to hype up someone, so be prepared just in case if later on he mentions he duel with Rayleigh or something. Not overhyping, just saying as I know many didn't expect us to think he had COC when we heard about him, but now he does.
We know it was a huge fight between Shutenmaru and Oden. That doesnt sound like Oden is strong like monsters Rayleigh and Roger. From what I remember Oden never was a shogun, his father was, he was in charge only of Kuri. Everything is possible yeah but he still doesnt have such portrayal of being close to Roger's top members.
Not really, Jimbei has shown nothing to be above or in the Monster Trio yet at all. Please don't use Big Mom excuse when he push her back due to having no 'fat' to help her. Luffy uses Gear 4th and couldn't push her back while she was full power, but Jimbei did when she was in another form, so you can't compare the two. Plus him being Yonko lvl strong messes up the dynamic and make no sense on who he fought before in the past if he was that strong. If he was, why didn't he face Big Mom 1 vs 1 instead of serving her and save Fishman Island from her wrath to begin with? That because he got lucky in pushing her back, but even then, it didn't damage her at all and still kept coming. He even said be prepare to abandon ship if confronting her and they were about to be dead along with the ship even as they fought back.
Since when are Sanji and Zoro above a Shichibukai? Dont misunderstand again, I didnt say he is a Yonko level, he clashed with her, pushed her off the ship with his punch, pushed her off with water attack, took her sword attack with bare hands and didnt lose a hand by doing it. Surely, BM was weakened but still, its far more than what Zoro and Sanji have shown. You cant place them above Jinbe who is a shichibukai.
I can see that happening with those 3 as the Yonko Commanders and what you mean by 10 titanic captains? BB's main crew who take charge of each ship individually?
It's very possible that each Strawhat, in the end, will take on one titanic captain and thus be of similar rank as Blackbeard's 10 commanders.

I just dislike the constant comments by people like you that work so hard to bring one character down, and to antagonize fans of that character. It's so pointless. We're all fans of the same manga, let's get along and talk about the cool things we hope to see instead of trying to start flame wars with fans of certain characters.
It's been 3 long weeks, fan wars had to start at some point. :XD
I dont see Sanji on Zoro's level despite everything and that's why I get into the arguments but I am not hating on him, on the contrary, he is very interesting character. Also, I dont have a problem with fans of Sanji but it seems like Moe and I are roleplaying Sanji and Zoro too much. :teehee
 
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