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Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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Course he did. Have you forgotten Gear 4 and all it's awesomeness...
That's an example of explosive growth.
Or the future CoO he got recently!
That's another.
Course he did. Have you forgotten Gear 4 and all it's awesomeness?!..
That's an example of explosive growth.
Or the future CoO he got recently?
That's another.
It's the character's power themselves as example by that logic, Yasopp is stronger than Ben Beckenman who some said is suppose to be the 'Zoro' while Yasopp is the 'Usopp', but from what we seen the flashback of Shanks getting a start of his journey, he met Yasopp first which means he is first mate and Ben came in later, so that means he is weaker than Yasopp (Though haven't seen them in a fight, so hard to say, but you get what I am getting at)
Perhaps you should go back and read chapter one again.
Oda introduced Ben Beckmann right then and there as Vice Captain/2nd in command of Red Hair Pirates.
Yasopp is said to be an awesome sniper if not the very best and he might have other strength, but he's nowhere near as powerful as Ben Beckmann (Power wise, feat wise, or even in importance and respect within crew).
I meant Gear 4, sorry... Luffy could use it from the beginning. Probably Snakeman too, since Rayleigh mentioned in a flashback to have an alternative...
Course he did. Have you forgotten Gear 4 and all it's awesomeness...
That's an example of explosive growth.
Or the future CoO he got recently!
That's another.
Want more?
Let Wano approach it's conclusion.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Course he did. Have you forgotten Gear 4 and all it's awesomeness?!..
That's an example of explosive growth.
Or the future CoO he got recently?
That's another.
Want more?
Let Wano approach it's conclusion.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Do you One Piece at all?
Perhaps you should go back and read chapter one again.
Oda introduced Ben Beckmann right then and there as Vice Captain/2nd in command of Red Hair Pirates.
Yasopp is said to be an awesome sniper if not the very best and he might have other strength, but he's nowhere near as powerful as Ben Beckmann (Power wise, feat wise, or even in importance and respect within crew).
Nah, Strong World Chapter shows Shanks meeting Yasopp himself first. Never it said Ben was First Mate at all. Though it proves the point the order you come in doesn't change strength as Benn still became Vice Captain out of it.
We never seen them in big fight, so remain to be seen who's stronger, though that wasn't I was talking about more in my post. More so the order you join the crew doesn't judge strength.
Well, you can deny it but that's not true. The hierarchy of each organization has stronger members the closer they are to the boss. Mr0 being the most powerful, mr1 is next in line, then mr2, then we have an exception of mr3 being weaker than mr4 but was explained why...
Kaido's card theme is same, King is more powerful than Queen. Margins are small indeed but its still sorted by how powerful they are.
I would bet on Jinbe being a bigger monster than Zoro and Sanji, Franky shouldn't be above them but he is quite close. When was it last time that term Monster Trio was used? When someone says monster about SH members they better include Jinbe, especially if he is the 3rd top commanding member of the crew.
You are still misunderstanding me. I am not saying that Jinbe is not a core, I am saying that Oden wasnt because he served two crews. You cant be a core member of two rivaling crews, it's not possible.
Crocus was recruited only because Roger got sick, to keep his illness in check. I am not debating if he had fun and if he was one of them, he was, we know that.
Shiryu is captain of 2nd ship. Not sure what you meant with Beckman but he is the first mate of RHP. Blackbeard pirates are the only example of newcomer being more impressive than first mate of the crew and thats with with Burgess not having a DF yet, he may very well deserve the possition after he gets a power up.
We know it was a huge fight between Shutenmaru and Oden. That doesnt sound like Oden is strong like monsters Rayleigh and Roger. From what I remember Oden never was a shogun, his father was, he was in charge only of Kuri. Everything is possible yeah but he still doesnt have such portrayal of being close to Roger's top members.
Since when are Sanji and Zoro above a Shichibukai? Dont misunderstand again, I didnt say he is a Yonko level, he clashed with her, pushed her off the ship with his punch, pushed her off with water attack, took her sword attack with bare hands and didnt lose a hand by doing it. Surely, BM was weakened but still, its far more than what Zoro and Sanji have shown. You cant place them above Jinbe who is a shichibukai.
It's very possible that each Strawhat, in the end, will take on one titanic captain and thus be of similar rank as Blackbeard's 10 commanders.
Not denying by the numbers in what position and faction they lead individually, but it was shown on-screen of Mr.2 and Mr.1 fighting and both were fighting evenly match with no signs of who had more advantage than who. Same with King and Queen talking smack to each other without any fear at all the same way. Also I wouldn't say that as in real life, Queens can serve and do a country as good as a King and many societies see them as equal too if we using real life inspirations, so not necessarily a King is always on top as Queen can be as good. Not taking anything away from them, but it's obvious Oda always put Sanji and Zoro as equal to one another and continue doing so even now.
Never Jinbei been said much about as a monster unless it was due to racism. Franky almost lost to a guy in a diaper, so Idk think he can be that close to them, sorry. The trio been called monsters or their strength been said to be monstrous a bunch of times throughout the years and 3rd Commanding? Don't think he is that level as while he is strong and can lead, he still behind on others who are leading and power-wise as well.
Got to be core if he was that close enough to be taken along for awhile and also they seen his family and then some. Don't think it was just a one-time thing and they hardly know each other, it was deeper and so? We seen Robin as a temporary member of the Revolution Army before coming back, so by that logic she isn't that deep with them either, but really is. We don't know how long Oden spend time with Whitebeard as it could be small time for all we know. So far it been heavily hinted more he spend more time with Roger than with Whitebeard in the long run.
Oh my bad, typo. BlackBeard is on 1st Ship since he is the leader while Shiryu is on 2nd Ship, but points stand that he joined later and yet given 2nd Ship meaning strength is judge when you join later as it's more the character as it wouldn't make sense why Shiryu got it since he isn't First Mate. Also you sure? In flashback when Shanks starting out especially with Strong World chapter, Shanks first met Yasopp to start up the crew, so wouldn't he be First Mate? Benn can still be Vice Captain as doesn't matter time you joined as I said, but Strong World shown to be canon and he met Yasopp before Benn looking at it as he sailed alone before meeting up.
That just one fight though as we never seen him in other fights and journey with the crew down the line as well. Also what you mean? Orochi took his position and became Shogun. He was former Shogun since he allied with Kaido to have a chance against him. That should speak volumes of his strength and his group. Also again, Oda is hyping him up still. We aren't finish with the arc, so expect more about Oden on what he can do and maybe a bit more his past with Roger Pirates. We have yet to see much of Roger done or Rayleigh done in the pasts, but they are very hype up through time and planning. Same can happen to Oden as well. Just saying is all.
Got damage from the cut as there was blood from the slice. So yeah, he still got lucky with BM as nothing damage her. Anyone could have do anything to her, but she still feel nothing. That's like saying Nami and Brook are tougher than those two due to able to get past her, but only lucked out as well. Jimbei hasn't shown anything that he is at their level as again until we see more fights from him with a person at full power and not in a weaker state, then we can talk on where he is at in power hierarchy, but until then, he is beneath the Monster Trio.
I presume so as they have same amount of people at the moment and probably BB will gain more people to take on the Strawhats as much as theirs as well.
Where did you get the idea that Jimbei is Yonko level?
He is clearly at the level of Yonko Commanders which none of the SHs are bar Luffy. If he's able to take on another YC in Ace and tie (even if there was little killing intent), take on the most destructive Admiral in Sakazuki while at a disadvantage, recognised as a powerful ex Shichibukai, and having a bounty of 500 million which is usually reserved for dangerous and powerful pirates in the OP world. Then I have no doubt he's at YC level.
Making him effectively second strongest in the SH crew until Spring and Sanji get their respective power ups or Zoro at least shows some feat worthy of that rank if he truly has sth he's hiding.
Oh! You were talking about order of arrival. I have no concern regarding that. It should be well known by now that order of arrival has nothing much to do with your strength or position in most pirate crews as Oda can go anyway he wants with that.
When sth is well established and consistent in a story, then you do not have to be shown everything to make inferences on that thing bar when there are exceptions. But exceptions are what they are – exceptions, meaning they rarely occur and always represent special cases.
Same applies to Pirate crew rankings or Yonko crew rankings or Marine Rankings. The higher up you go in position, the more powerful the characters get.
So once someone is said to be 2nd in command of a given crew, you shouldn't find a stronger member except the captain (an exception is Buggy).
Or when someone is said to be a Vice Admiral, he should be stronger than those in other ranks apart from Admirals & Fleet Admiral and weaker than the Admirals (an exception is Garp).
Or when someone is a Yonko's Right Hand Man, he should be stronger than every other member within the Yonko's crew save the Yonko himself/herself (no exceptions whatsoever).
So you don't have to see every battle between 2 characters to come to a conclusion of who wins. Sometimes, it is already conclusive enough seeing the level between two given opponents.
A battle between Zoro and Usopp would only go one way.
Oda will not spoonfeed you with every detail – where's the fun in that? – you are expected to know certain things once it's implied by the author which he'll not always show.
Not denying by the numbers in what position and faction they lead individually, but it was shown on-screen of Mr.2 and Mr.1 fighting and both were fighting evenly match with no signs of who had more advantage than who. Same with King and Queen talking smack to each other without any fear at all the same way. Also I wouldn't say that as in real life, Queens can serve and do a country as good as a King and many societies see them as equal too if we using real life inspirations, so not necessarily a King is always on top as Queen can be as good. Not taking anything away from them, but it's obvious Oda always put Sanji and Zoro as equal to one another and continue doing so even now.
Well, again, you have to differentiate a fight from a clash, mr1 and mr2 only clashed and only 1 successful hit was exchanged. It's obvious that Mr1 is quite stronger than mr 2, he didnt even use his blades in that clash. We will see how strong Queen is compared to King but my bets are on King easily.
Never Jinbei been said much about as a monster unless it was due to racism. Franky almost lost to a guy in a diaper, so Idk think he can be that close to them, sorry. The trio been called monsters or their strength been said to be monstrous a bunch of times throughout the years and 3rd Commanding? Don't think he is that level as while he is strong and can lead, he still behind on others who are leading and power-wise as well.
Arlong called Jinbe a monster due to his brutal strength. The guy is most likely the strongest fishman there is, no doubt that his strength is monstrous and higher than both Sanji and Zoro.
Franky is definitely the 5th monster and it seems like you forgot how his fight with "guy in a diaper" went down. It was a manly duel with a pattern of "you hit once, i hit once" with no dodging allowed. Franky didnt use any of his cyborg arsenal, he hasnt shown anything of his real strength in that fight.
Got to be core if he was that close enough to be taken along for awhile and also they seen his family and then some. Don't think it was just a one-time thing and they hardly know each other, it was deeper and so? We seen Robin as a temporary member of the Revolution Army before coming back, so by that logic she isn't that deep with them either, but really is. We don't know how long Oden spend time with Whitebeard as it could be small time for all we know. So far it been heavily hinted more he spend more time with Roger than with Whitebeard in the long run.
He wasnt a core member of either WB or Roger pirates. It's confirmed that he joined WB first and was on his ship only for a while and that Roger spotted him on WB's ship and scouted him and he only was on Roger's ship for a while. Dogstorm and Cat Viper followed Oden anywhere he went and none of them were core members of either WB or Roger pirates, they only didnt follow them to Raftel.
Oh my bad, typo. BlackBeard is on 1st Ship since he is the leader while Shiryu is on 2nd Ship, but points stand that he joined later and yet given 2nd Ship meaning strength is judge when you join later as it's more the character as it wouldn't make sense why Shiryu got it since he isn't First Mate. Also you sure? In flashback when Shanks starting out especially with Strong World chapter, Shanks first met Yasopp to start up the crew, so wouldn't he be First Mate? Benn can still be Vice Captain as doesn't matter time you joined as I said, but Strong World shown to be canon and he met Yasopp before Benn looking at it as he sailed alone before meeting up.
Again, you are forgetting things. Blackbeard is not a captain of 1st ship, Burgess is. Blackbeard isnt captain of any ship in particular, he has the title of an Admiral. I already said that BBP are exception and that they dont trust fully to Shilliew and that Burgess may very well justify his position of being captain of first ship once he gets a power up from a DF.
That just one fight though as we never seen him in other fights and journey with the crew down the line as well. Also what you mean? Orochi took his position and became Shogun. He was former Shogun since he allied with Kaido to have a chance against him. That should speak volumes of his strength and his group. Also again, Oda is hyping him up still. We aren't finish with the arc, so expect more about Oden on what he can do and maybe a bit more his past with Roger Pirates. We have yet to see much of Roger done or Rayleigh done in the pasts, but they are very hype up through time and planning. Same can happen to Oden as well. Just saying is all.
Considering that he was "more of a kid or an apprentice on WB/Rogers ship" and he fought Shutenmaru before going out to sea he couldnt have been nowhere close to Rayleigh or Roger.
What do you mean What do I mean? He never was a shogun of Wano. He was exiled from the capital and only became daimyo of Kuri which is a small part of Wano. Orochi didnt take his position. Only reason why I see Orochi teaming up with Kaido is because he himself is weak to stand up to any serious threat. So far he is just another goofy character.
Got damage from the cut as there was blood from the slice. So yeah, he still got lucky with BM as nothing damage her. Anyone could have do anything to her, but she still feel nothing. That's like saying Nami and Brook are tougher than those two due to able to get past her, but only lucked out as well. Jimbei hasn't shown anything that he is at their level as again until we see more fights from him with a person at full power and not in a weaker state, then we can talk on where he is at in power hierarchy, but until then, he is beneath the Monster Trio.
You got it all wrong. Sanji and Zoro have shown nothing to put them on Jinbe's level. They still have to take on a sword slash from a Yonko with their bodies and not lose a limb. They still have to take a hit from Akainu through their body and survive. Monster trio doesnt exist anymore since there are more monsters in the crew now and Sanji and Zoro have yet to show anything to put them even close to Jinbe's level, especially Sanji.
Again, not hating on the character but he really lacks feats to put him anywhere close to a Shichibukai level.
Where did you get the idea that Jimbei is Yonko level?
He is clearly at the level of Yonko Commanders which none of the SHs are bar Luffy. If he's able to take on another YC in Ace and tie (even if there was little killing intent), take on the most destructive Admiral in Sakazuki while at a disadvantage, recognised as a powerful ex Shichibukai, and having a bounty of 500 million which is usually reserved for dangerous and powerful pirates in the OP world. Then I have no doubt he's at YC level.
Making him effectively second strongest in the SH crew until Spring and Sanji get their respective power ups or Zoro at least shows some feat worthy of that rank if he truly has sth he's hiding.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Oh! You were talking about order of arrival. I have no concern regarding that. It should be well known by now that order of arrival has nothing much to do with your strength or position in most pirate crews as Oda can go anyway he wants with that.
When sth is well established and consistent in a story, then you do not have to be shown everything to make inferences on that thing bar when there are exceptions. But exceptions are what they are – exceptions, meaning they rarely occur and always represent special cases.
Same applies to Pirate crew rankings or Yonko crew rankings or Marine Rankings. The higher up you go in position, the more powerful the characters get.
So once someone is said to be 2nd in command of a given crew, you shouldn't find a stronger member except the captain (an exception is Buggy).
Or when someone is said to be a Vice Admiral, he should be stronger than those in other ranks apart from Admirals & Fleet Admiral and weaker than the Admirals (an exception is Garp).
Or when someone is a Yonko's Right Hand Man, he should be stronger than every other member within the Yonko's crew save the Yonko himself/herself (no exceptions whatsoever).
So you don't have to see every battle between 2 characters to come to a conclusion of who wins. Sometimes, it is already conclusive enough seeing the level between two given opponents.
A battle between Zoro and Usopp would only go one way.
Oda will not spoonfeed you with every detail – where's the fun in that? – you are expected to know certain things once it's implied by the author which he'll not always show.
I never said he was never Yonko Commander lvl. I said he isn't Yonko lvl as everyone I seen trying to enforce or at least stronger than Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro still as we haven't seen his full power as of yet. While I know his achievements pre-timeskip, we are more focus on post-timeskip and so far, he hasn't had much to do and while he did push Big Mom, that was still in her less fat and 'weaker' mode than full power how she always been. Can't really call it much of a feat as it's easy to get someone when they aren't at full power like they used to. I do see him as one of the YC for the Strawhats for sure since he is the next strongest I can think of after Sanji and Zoro though, but I am not going to overhype him too deep over it as fighting BM was a team effort than more solely thing.
Until we see him solo someone of a higher-caliber, then we know how he match up to the Monster Trio, but until then still have him below until he has something more.
That what I been saying. I think you got confuse by my talk on what I meant. I do see Benn probably bit stronger than Yasopp (Even though we haven't seen how strong they are in a fight still), but saying order on who join the crew doesn't matter in strength that I was talking to Nik since he was trying to put it like that when it's not.
Not doubting those who are 'Second-In-Command' when have the position or in powerful positions, but don't think they are the absolute strongest or no one can match or equal them as Oda already prove out that those positions can be put with someone else who isn't in that position or comes in as something else to be like that. Your right on not being able to see every detail or battle about it, but still Oda is known for doing twists and turns when we thought something was in our mindset and make us rethink otherwise, so we can't take the chance solely from our mindset alone and must be more open from what I am saying.
Well, again, you have to differentiate a fight from a clash, mr1 and mr2 only clashed and only 1 successful hit was exchanged. It's obvious that Mr1 is quite stronger than mr 2, he didnt even use his blades in that clash. We will see how strong Queen is compared to King but my bets are on King easily.
Arlong called Jinbe a monster due to his brutal strength. The guy is most likely the strongest fishman there is, no doubt that his strength is monstrous and higher than both Sanji and Zoro.
Franky is definitely the 5th monster and it seems like you forgot how his fight with "guy in a diaper" went down. It was a manly duel with a pattern of "you hit once, i hit once" with no dodging allowed. Franky didnt use any of his cyborg arsenal, he hasnt shown anything of his real strength in that fight.
He wasnt a core member of either WB or Roger pirates. It's confirmed that he joined WB first and was on his ship only for a while and that Roger spotted him on WB's ship and scouted him and he only was on Roger's ship for a while. Dogstorm and Cat Viper followed Oden anywhere he went and none of them were core members of either WB or Roger pirates, they only didnt follow them to Raftel.
Again, you are forgetting things. Blackbeard is not a captain of 1st ship, Burgess is. Blackbeard isnt captain of any ship in particular, he has the title of an Admiral. I already said that BBP are exception and that they dont trust fully to Shilliew and that Burgess may very well justify his position of being captain of first ship once he gets a power up from a DF.
Considering that he was "more of a kid or an apprentice on WB/Rogers ship" and he fought Shutenmaru before going out to sea he couldnt have been nowhere close to Rayleigh or Roger.
What do you mean What do I mean? He never was a shogun of Wano. He was exiled from the capital and only became daimyo of Kuri which is a small part of Wano. Orochi didnt take his position. Only reason why I see Orochi teaming up with Kaido is because he himself is weak to stand up to any serious threat. So far he is just another goofy character.
You got it all wrong. Sanji and Zoro have shown nothing to put them on Jinbe's level. They still have to take on a sword slash from a Yonko with their bodies and not lose a limb. They still have to take a hit from Akainu through their body and survive. Monster trio doesnt exist anymore since there are more monsters in the crew now and Sanji and Zoro have yet to show anything to put them even close to Jinbe's level, especially Sanji.
Again, not hating on the character but he really lacks feats to put him anywhere close to a Shichibukai level.
Actually he did use his blades as blades can be use as defense from hits as shown when Zoro fought him and took his attacks from his blades when it didn't look like his body use it on those moments, so Mr. 1 was trying against Mr. 2 for sure and no side was shown who have more advantage since both never went all out as Mr. 2 never use those swan pistol shoes and more of his Okama techniques at him, so can't say the same on him. Yeah, we will see, but again it's pretty equal between Queen and King as if they can openly badmouth each other, that means neither are fearful of the other's power and see each other as equals. So pretty sure Oda wants them to be equal and show it to the fans with their attitudes to each other. It's not the same dynamic with Big Mom's and her crew as shown so far about Kaido's group.
That's only time I heard from him and compare to Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro being call monsters more times than once though. Whether honorable duel or not, he got damage so bad parts of his robot skin shown and should be much stronger since he did enhance himself, so that shows that he isn't close to their level still. I enjoy the fight, but not putting Franky that close to the Trio.
I thought you said Oden was there to read the Poneglphys as he was brought along for one of the reasons? Also that kinda put more how deep if they known him before he got married or he was still developing as doubt a man would let someone see his kid and family if he didn't really trust them. Though, doesn't take away the point that Oden could still do something in a fight as he seemed more referred as older a bit than Buggy and Shanks. Again got to wait and see more of his backstory with Roger Pirates before we can truly dismissed him away out of it.
When I met '1st Ship' I mean the Ship that has him as the leader, not the commanders positions. Though again it doesn't change the fact about what I said on Shiryu who came in late and was given a high position despite he was 5th or 6th person (Forgot how many BB Pirates were at the time they met him) to joined and get leadership of the 2nd Ship. Not the only exception as Benn came in later than Yasopp who was first mate as shown with Shanks' flashback when he started out, but got Vice-Captain position. Oda already put out the position you came to join the crew, doesn't determine strength no matter how you slice it. Same with the Strawhats in the same category as well.
Oh my bad, thought that was same position as Shogun. Well we don't know if Orochi is really weak as we judging by design, when we haven't seen him in a fight, but even so, he needed Kaido and his crew to take him out instead of using people from his own country, meaning Oden was a force to be reckon with if he needed that much power behind him to take him down for good. We been through Oden's character design before and that is to never underestimate characters who look goofy or such. Shutenmaru look like a big, lazy, fat guy, but he shown to have serious swordmanship, so judging by appearance isn't a good answer your putting out.
Again, Jimbei has shown nothing in timeskip how strong he is in a full fight. Not counting BM situation since she was again in a 'weaker' form and the attack didn't do damage to her to begin with. I get his achievements, but still not much on defeating someone prominent as into defending still as we seen Brook did his hardest against BM too, but that doesn't mean he is stronger than Luffy and the others. Until full-fight for Jimbei, he is below Monster Trio which still exist as the future opponents for Wano for them looks to be Kaido for Luffy, Sanji and Zoro for either King, Queen, Jack, or Orochi. Jimbei is not above them especially Sanji who shown to never go 100% in any of his fights and has more potential to shown more than out of them and Zoro also might have more to give too. Though then again Zoro been facing more weaklings than serious opponents who best him when he fought, so Idk how Jimbei with him, but I do feel once Zoro gets a challenge as well as Sanji, they prove they are above him in this arc.
Not hating either, I adore all these characters, but just putting out what we seen so far and not overhyping too much. Until fights happen in the arc and how Jimbei comes later on, we will see how power hierarchy is, but so far Monster Trio is above him until further notice.
Actually he did use his blades as blades can be use as defense from hits as shown when Zoro fought him and took his attacks from his blades when it didn't look like his body use it on those moments, so Mr. 1 was trying against Mr. 2 for sure and no side was shown who have more advantage since both never went all out as Mr. 2 never use those swan pistol shoes and more of his Okama techniques at him, so can't say the same on him. Yeah, we will see, but again it's pretty equal between Queen and King as if they can openly badmouth each other, that means neither are fearful of the other's power and see each other as equals. So pretty sure Oda wants them to be equal and show it to the fans with their attitudes to each other. It's not the same dynamic with Big Mom's and her crew as shown so far about Kaido's group.
They had only one attack that connected, you should really separate a clash from a fight so no, none of them tried hard. Mr.1 used blades only right before the clash was stopped and it was highlighted by SFX, he didnt hit Mr2 once to say that he used blades and that Mr2 withstood them.
That's only time I heard from him and compare to Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro being call monsters more times than once though. Whether honorable duel or not, he got damage so bad parts of his robot skin shown and should be much stronger since he did enhance himself, so that shows that he isn't close to their level still. I enjoy the fight, but not putting Franky that close to the Trio.
Yes once because he had nowhere near enough screen time like the other 3. That's not an argument. The point stands tho, Jinbe is a bigger monster than Zoro and Sanji and they still have to get at his level. You think Sanji or Zoro wouldn't get hurt in an honorable duel like Franky had? Of course he got hurt since he wasnt allowed to dodge anything that was coming at him. Franky has yet to show what kind of monster he is in a proper 1vs1 with everything allowed. He should be very close to Sanji.
I thought you said Oden was there to read the Poneglphys as he was brought along for one of the reasons? Also that kinda put more how deep if they known him before he got married or he was still developing as doubt a man would let someone see his kid and family if he didn't really trust them. Though, doesn't take away the point that Oden could still do something in a fight as he seemed more referred as older a bit than Buggy and Shanks. Again got to wait and see more of his backstory with Roger Pirates before we can truly dismissed him away out of it.
He was older than Buggy and Shanks but he was of the same rank as they were, similar to a kid or apprentice on the ship, not a core member of Roger pirates. Oden thought that both Whitebeard and Roger pirates were honorable men and no reason he should hide his family when he thinks highly of them.
Though again it doesn't change the fact about what I said on Shiryu who came in late and was given a high position despite he was 5th or 6th person (Forgot how many BB Pirates were at the time they met him) to joined and get leadership of the 2nd Ship
Doesnt change my point that he didnt replace a first mate no matter how strong he is. Same with Bepo and Jean-Bart. First mate aint replaceable that easily, we still have to see such example.
Regarding RHP we still dont have information about them and if Beckman was already part of Shanks' crew when Yasopp was recruited and if Yasopp ever was first mate at all.
Oh my bad, thought that was same position as Shogun. Well we don't know if Orochi is really weak as we judging by design, when we haven't seen him in a fight, but even so, he needed Kaido and his crew to take him out instead of using people from his own country, meaning Oden was a force to be reckon with if he needed that much power behind him to take him down for good. We been through Oden's character design before and that is to never underestimate characters who look goofy or such. Shutenmaru look like a big, lazy, fat guy, but he shown to have serious swordmanship, so judging by appearance isn't a good answer your putting out.
Oden had all his retainers with him and 3 very powerful samurai so its not wonder that Orochi needed Kaido's help. Orochi, based on the things we saw so far, looks like a coward. Only thing that we have to see is if he can fight at all. He is like the Spandam of the CP9.
Again, Jimbei has shown nothing in timeskip how strong he is in a full fight. Not counting BM situation since she was again in a 'weaker' form and the attack didn't do damage to her to begin with. I get his achievements, but still not much on defeating someone prominent as into defending still as we seen Brook did his hardest against BM too, but that doesn't mean he is stronger than Luffy and the others. Until full-fight for Jimbei, he is below Monster Trio which still exist as the future opponents for Wano for them looks to be Kaido for Luffy, Sanji and Zoro for either King, Queen, Jack, or Orochi. Jimbei is not above them especially Sanji who shown to never go 100% in any of his fights and has more potential to shown more than out of them and Zoro also might have more to give too. Though then again Zoro been facing more weaklings than serious opponents who best him when he fought, so Idk how Jimbei with him, but I do feel once Zoro gets a challenge as well as Sanji, they prove they are above him in this arc.
Again, you do know that Jinbe is a relatively new character? If you do why are you expecting some feats from a character who didnt have a single fight to the end so far? Why are you underestimating a Shichibukai? Until Sanji and Zoro show better feats they are not Jinbe's level. Sorry to break it down for you but the monster trio is no longer, except if they outgrow Jinbe during Wano. I can't take your power scaling seriously when you think that Jinbe is not above Sanji and Zoro. Even if they grow stronger than Jinbe during Wano they will be monster quartet or however you call 5 monsters if Franky is included too.
They had only one attack that connected, you should really separate a clash from a fight so no, none of them tried hard. Mr.1 used blades only right before the clash was stopped and it was highlighted by SFX, he didnt hit Mr2 once to say that he used blades and that Mr2 withstood them.
Yes once because he had nowhere near enough screen time like the other 3. That's not an argument. The point stands tho, Jinbe is a bigger monster than Zoro and Sanji and they still have to get at his level. You think Sanji or Zoro wouldn't get hurt in an honorable duel like Franky had? Of course he got hurt since he wasnt allowed to dodge anything that was coming at him. Franky has yet to show what kind of monster he is in a proper 1vs1 with everything allowed. He should be very close to Sanji.
He was older than Buggy and Shanks but he was of the same rank as they were, similar to a kid or apprentice on the ship, not a core member of Roger pirates. Oden thought that both Whitebeard and Roger pirates were honorable men and no reason he should hide his family when he thinks highly of them.
Doesnt change my point that he didnt replace a first mate no matter how strong he is. Same with Bepo and Jean-Bart. First mate aint replaceable that easily, we still have to see such example.
Regarding RHP we still dont have information about them and if Beckman was already part of Shanks' crew when Yasopp was recruited and if Yasopp ever was first mate at all.
Oden had all his retainers with him and 3 very powerful samurai so its not wonder that Orochi needed Kaido's help. Orochi, based on the things we saw so far, looks like a coward. Only thing that we have to see is if he can fight at all. He is like the Spandam of the CP9.
Again, you do know that Jinbe is a relatively new character? If you do why are you expecting some feats from a character who didnt have a single fight to the end so far? Why are you underestimating a Shichibukai? Until Sanji and Zoro show better feats they are not Jinbe's level. Sorry to break it down for you but the monster trio is no longer, except if they outgrow Jinbe during Wano. I can't take your power scaling seriously when you think that Jinbe is not above Sanji and Zoro. Even if they grow stronger than Jinbe during Wano they will be monster quartet or however you call 5 monsters if Franky is included too.
We saw that Sanji was an easy pray for a shichibukai, you have nothing that backs up your claim of Sanji being even close to Jinbe.
He doesn't need to show blades to be using them. Look at Zoro fight against him. He is capable of using it without visible appearance and take no damage at long-term of the fight. When he is defensive, his blades don't show as much and you can't cut him either (Until with enough force with what Zoro did later on). Bon Clay push him back even in his defensive style, but Daz Bone still was moving. Both never went full power in the fight, so it's remained to be seen who was truly tougher is my point, not about who using more than the other. It goes to my point that Oda make them equal like this as if someone was that stronger than the other, Oda wouldn't put their clash in that manner. We seen power difference of opponents before and when Oda make their power equal. This is a example of him putting the two as equals, not who better than who.
Screen time means nothing as we seen people less screen time and still refer as a big threat in the end. You can't use as a excuse. As for duels, Sanji and Zoro duel differently than Franky as their duels aren't dodging attacks, but still Franky to be damage that much despite in the duel, shows he isn't that close to him. He is strong for sure, but won't bring him that far. Nothing implies he is very close to their level even Sanji and if we going by that logic, since Zoro got hit by nails and Franky isn't affected by bullets, does that mean he is stronger than them over it? No because it's body difference, not power difference. They aren't the same.
Pretty sure he is legit core member if he was important enough to come to Raftel to help read Poneglyphs. He wouldn't do it just with anybody and choose with Roger on giving him information, so he is probably that and COC again enforce he has to be something strong. Oda doesn't put that on anybody no matter how you see coming at you.
Who said he replace him? I was talking about power and that how 2nd-In-Command/First Mate isn't always absolute and can't be surpassed or equal. Though can replace someone as Vice Captain though as shown with BBP and RHP. As for your statement, doesn't make no sense as in Strong World Chapter, Shanks was sailing on a small boat. No one else was with him, it's heavily hinted he set sail after Roger's execution and didn't have anyone with him until meeting Yasopp. Unless more information given, kinda contradicts that chapter when Oda said that was canon too. Guess we have to check and see with him on what he show later about them on their origins down the line. Though if Benn is Vice Captain, then that mean he came later and succeed over Yasopp for the position which I don't mind at all as still prove my point on when you come in doesn't matter at all.
Again, your going on by appearance. This isn't the first time Oda made a goofy character who we thought was weak until they actually very strong. Until it's shown how he fights, Orochi could have the power, but not enough to take on everyone along with Oden, so ask for Kaido for alliance about it in the end. Not saying he might not be weak too, but again appearances are deceiving and this is OP, so we should expect the unexpected sometimes.
New? He been around since pre-timeskip? What you mean he is a new character? He has feats already in pre-timeskip and actions that we know him well enough. Though we are more counting post-timeskip nowadays than years ago. So far, he has nothing to show he is very strong above them. Not underestimating him, but again he has nothing to show in post-timeskip in a fight more than the others. Sorry to break to you, but it is what it is. Saying Monster Trio is dead is not good statement when they are facing bigger threats in Wano right now and so far, Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro are the only ones who made attacks to the system.
Saying the Trio don't exist is a nonsensical when Oda is showing in our faces. Again that's why I am saying lets see Wano to see how they go about this on fighting so I can judge them. Jimbei is coming, right? If he shows up, we see his power too, but right now, neither had full fights to judge their 100%, so we going to have to wait and see. There could be Monster Quartet and lol, really Franky? Dude, your making me understanding your meaning more of your post with adding Franky there. Don't compare him to Trio's level. Jimbei is stronger than him no doubt and he hasn't anything to reach that far for them.
Yes, I accept the lost, but we saw Zoro can't cut a BirdCage by same guy. Neither was capable of Doflamingo. Law even lost to him. Where you claim Jimbei would fare better? Because of water? Because he is a fellow/former Shikibukai? He lost to Mihawk, so it's clear all Shikibukai are on different levels. I don't think he can handle Doffy at all especially with he is one of the few of having COC and Jimbei has show nothing to compete with him as he is on a different lvl. Losing to Doffy is not bad especially characters get stronger next arc. It takes away nothing if you think they be always that level.
I think we getting off topic, let's go back discussion the chapter and end the discussion with this as the last post please. Nik, please don't post back and lets continue on next chapter on predictions as this talk seem out of range on what we should be talking about.
Its not trolling if we agree to disagree. Need to light up when in discussion. Sometimes everyone can't agree on everything. I agree with some of your points, but don't on others. Vice versa on your side.
Course he did. Have you forgotten Gear 4 and all it's awesomeness?!..
That's an example of explosive growth.
Or the future CoO he got recently?
That's another.
Gear 4 wasn't an explosive growth, he learned that during his two years of training, not in between arcs or in just one arc. Neither is Color of Observation, it didn't help him against Kaidou, and it's just a bit of an advanced version of CoO. Luffy couldn't hurt Big Mom and got one-shot by Kaidou despite landing several blows.
When you say that Zoro couldn't cut the birdcage that's trolling because I have shown you proof several times that neither Zoro nor anyone else tried cutting it.
When you say that Zoro couldn't cut the birdcage that's trolling because I have shown you proof several times that neither Zoro nor anyone else tried cutting it.
They are swordsman. Instinctly, they should try to cut it as first thought. Not push. No excuse no matter how you slice it (No-Pun Intended). That shows he isn't capable of fighting him. Nothing he has shown is G4 nature of lvl. This not trolling, its facts man. No proof says he could cut it or fight Doflamingo.
They are swordsman. Instinctly, they should try to cut it as first thought. Not push. No excuse no matter how you slice it (No-Pun Intended). That shows he isn't capable of fighting him. Nothing he has shown is G4 nature of lvl. This not trolling, its facts man. No proof says he could cut it or fight Doflamingo.
Thats your headcanon, contrary to facts which were shown in the manga. What proof says is that nobody ever tried cutting it but you enjoy trolling so I'm ending the discussion.
Gear 4 wasn't an explosive growth, he learned that during his two years of training, not in between arcs or in just one arc. Neither is Color of Observation, it didn't help him against Kaidou, and it's just a bit of an advanced version of CoO. Luffy couldn't hurt Big Mom and got one-shot by Kaidou despite landing several blows.
I think his improved CoO somehow counts as a powerup but we have to see how far it gets him. Luffy also has one ace up his sleeve from the two years training: The normal version of "Tankman".
Luffy always gets at least two fights in an arc, so we might actually see him fight a top henchmen of Kaido, then we can gauge his improvement.
I somehow believe all the Straw Hats will get another powerup during the story, and some (Luffy at least) will get more.
Luffy: Advanced CoO, Awakening??
Zoro: New Sword?? CoC???
Nami: Stretching Staff, Nimbus Cloud, Monkey King????????
Usopp: CoO
Sanji: Raid Suit???? (pls not)
Chopper: Awakening??
Robin: ???
Franky: Body Upgrade?? Shogun Upgrade?? Other Tech??
Brook: ???
Jinbe: None. No need.
I think his improved CoO somehow counts as a powerup but we have to see how far it gets him. Luffy also has one ace up his sleeve from the two years training: The normal version of "Tankman".
Luffy always gets at least two fights in an arc, so we might actually see him fight a top henchmen of Kaido, then we can gauge his improvement.
I somehow believe all the Straw Hats will get another powerup during the story, and some (Luffy at least) will get more.
Luffy: Advanced CoO, Awakening??
Zoro: New Sword?? CoC???
Nami: Stretching Staff, Nimbus Cloud, Monkey King????????
Usopp: CoO
Sanji: Raid Suit???? (pls not)
Chopper: Awakening??
Robin: ???
Franky: Body Upgrade?? Shogun Upgrade?? Other Tech??
Brook: ???
Jinbe: None. No need.
I never said it wasn't a powerup, just not explosive or a significant powerup/growth. I mean, he went from being useless against Aokiji to learning Gear 2 and 3 in just few days or weeks, which helped him actually stand some sort of a chance against Lucci. Best way to have gauged his improvement was to see how he fought Kaidou, and it resulted in him being one-shot.
but yeah, if nothing/no one else, Luffy will get a significant enough powerup or growth that'll help him actually deal some damage to Big Mom. It'll probably be better Color of Armament.
Will a better CoA help tho?
From what we saw in fight with Katakuri it only was hurting him so with better/equal CoA to Katakuri it wouldnt hurt him? Is that all? It probably still depends mainly on the strength behind the attack since he wasnt hurting while in Boundman form even when Katakuri attacked him sideways.
Gear 4 wasn't an explosive growth, he learned that during his two years of training, not in between arcs or in just one arc. Neither is Color of Observation, it didn't help him against Kaidou, and it's just a bit of an advanced version of CoO. Luffy couldn't hurt Big Mom and got one-shot by Kaidou despite landing several blows.
I'm not restricting his growth to timeline. I'm saying Gear 4 was a truly explosive growth due to it being at a completely different level from anything the other gears could accomplish.
From ragdolling Doffy (to him needing to resort to awakening to stand a fighting chance), to destroying Cracker's biscuit soldiers in 1 hit. Sth none of his previous Gears could accomplish.
That's an example of explosive growth Luffy always get. Once again, I'm not limiting it to timeline (pre time skip, time skip, post time skim). Just highlighting his explosive power growth.
Also that face off with Kaido, I see it as a learning curve for him. Letting his emotions overcome him and expecting to see him use advanced CoO, not gonna happen. Hence the one shot (which was pretty badass from Kaido's part).
Will a better CoA help tho?
From what we saw in fight with Katakuri it only was hurting him so with better/equal CoA to Katakuri it wouldnt hurt him? Is that all? It probably still depends mainly on the strength behind the attack since he wasnt hurting while in Boundman form even when Katakuri attacked him sideways.
Why wouldn't it, if it helps him hurt Big Mom and/or Kaidou? I'm talking about better CoA offensive-wise, because right now he's lacking the ability to do any kind of damage to Big Mom and Kaidou.
I'm not restricting his growth to timeline. I'm saying Gear 4 was a truly explosive growth due to it being at a completely different level from anything the other gears could accomplish.
From ragdolling Doffy (to him needing to resort to awakening to stand a fighting chance), to destroying Cracker's biscuit soldiers in 1 hit. Sth none of his previous Gears could accomplish.
That's an example of explosive growth Luffy always get. Once again, I'm not limiting it to timeline (pre time skip, time skip, post time skim). Just highlighting his explosive power growth.
Also that face off with Kaido, I see it as a learning curve for him. Letting his emotions overcome him and expecting to see him use advanced CoO, not gonna happen. Hence the one shot (which was pretty badass from Kaido's part).
I'm speaking in terms of passage of time in the manga, where Luffy learned Gear 2 and 3 in few weeks as opposed to Gear 4 in few months, if not a year or so. Technically speaking, Gear 4 wouldn't be considered explosive unless Luffy picked it up right before his fight with Doflamingo or before the Dressrosa Arc.
While it may not have been a one-shot with advanced CoO, Luffy would have still lost if Kaidou could land a hit on him either way.
When you say that Zoro couldn't cut the birdcage that's trolling because I have shown you proof several times that neither Zoro nor anyone else tried cutting it.
...come on, lol. Zoro couldn't cut it, nobody there could, if they could, then they would have tried. I know this debate you two are having has been going on awhile, but you don't have to go this far. Not even the admiral could break the bird cage, it's not shame to Zoro that he couldn't.
