Discussion NNT Pair Battle Royale

[BurlapJack]

Merlin would have to use Chronal Coffin on the sun itself in order to keep Escanor in the one. His powers don’t work by his internal clock, they work by the position of the sun

The earth's rotation and sun really, stopping the sun won't stop the earth from rotating lmao

 

[Undina]

That’s the burden of proof though. If you make a claim it’s up to you to prove it, not for someone else prove it for you. But regardless of that we do have proof. The sinner, who was created by the demon king, is weak to lightning and wind as chandler and Cusack even though the demon king control lightning, one of his elements.

I didn't ask anyone to prove for me that Elizabeth has high overal elemental resistance, I asked for them to prove she hasn't. I followed the more logical reasoning which at least has some implication in the canon at its root. You are going with one that generalises the rules of applicability of a spell while disregarding the very different circumstances of the characters. Last time I checked there were plenty of features that mattered in adjusting reaction to a character and whether some measures mattered or not. Race and elemental affinity were among the most important in this series.
Uhhh, what?! The DK, who isn't depicted as specialised in elemental control, those elemental abilities of his are more around the level of sub/acquired competences, artificially created The Sinner and it was never said that he tried to make it into his likeness. As far as the story goes, The DK sired Meliodas and Zeldris. who naturally inherited immense potential in awakening and developping abilities in tone and similar in nature and coverage to that of their father's.
The SD, who is so far depicted as a main handler of elemental abilities, is so far the biological mother of Elizabeth. The Sinner and Elizabeth's circumstances don't even begin to compare, saying that because a spell worked on one side character it will automatically work on any other character, even though that wasn't stated either, disregarding even specific circumstances that would naturally lead to different outcomes, is like saying that brainwashing works on anyone, regardless of possessing a blessing against it, it will just have a lower level of efficiency or other matters of that sort.

Or I have higher resistance to the heat maybe and my resistance to cold is just neutral?

There is no such thing as neutral resistance to cold unless you're dead. Are you dead?!

Weakness means their is a fault though. Chandler and Cusack don’t have faults, just things they resist better than others.

So now The Sinner is a perfect, ideal being?! The very fact that Merlin ended up discovering any elemental value on the minus(even in rapport with the others) she could exploit in its halves' make-up makes the "no weaknesses" phrasing beforehand a fallacy. It's not the first time this happens either. Claiming that "The One is invincible" caused another such storm of confusion, given that that feature would've placed him above even the god who created the holder's means to achieve the form in power, even if for that 1 minute. Then "True Night" and Mel's true ability came up and the characters holding these advantages over The One were still inferior overall to the PGs and their competences. A fault is an imperfection and all the characters are chock full of them. There's still nothing in the counters I get convincing me that those sorts of elemental faults are automatically part of Elizabeth's build. She definitely has others, but elemental ones are the unlikeliest of them all.

That’s assuming that the elements are even in her dna and not just magical. And again I point to the chandler whose weakness is lightning even though the DK can create storms around himself.

It’s not a matter of having a weakness. It’s just the fact that the body is not uniform in it’s workings. A weakness to an element is something detrimental like a demons weakness to ark. Not a minuscule difference in the case of chandler and Cusack.

Also it doesn’t even matter if Elizabeth doesn’t have anything she’s less resistant to. Double impact would still lower he defenses with any hit that she would take. Any element/ attack would do

Double impact was explained so far as taking an elemental resistance flaw and amping it up, until it is clearly said that it works on any flaw, it stays like that.
Again, you can't begin to compare The Sinner's situation and Elizabeth's, nor Merlin's clearly far more extensive knowledge of the DC with what she knows of the GC.
Elizabeth has flaws in resistance/defenses, like her physical fittness and associated traits, maybe she has others too, but her biological connection to the highest level of elemental manipulator makes me severely doubt she has elemental weaknesses that can be exploited by Merlin with Double Impact.
And it doesn't matter whether the elemental traits/resistances are magical or physical in nature. Their effect on the bearer's state is, as far as we know, the same. Anyway, ability/power inheritance is a standard theme of this story with parents-children. It gets tweaked here and there, but it pretty much proves the saying about the apple and the tree true.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I didn't ask anyone to prove for me that Elizabeth has high overal elemental resistance, I asked for them to prove she hasn't.

Right and that’s the burden of proof. You can’t ask for someone to prove a negative. It’s like me saying to you “prove that The boogie man doesn’t exist.”

Uhhh, what?! The DK, who isn't depicted as specialised in elemental control, those elemental abilities of his are more around the level of sub/acquired competences, artificially created

That doesn’t mean anything though. That’s all an assumption of yours in the first place. You’re making up entire rules about elemental control. Nowhere has it been stated that because you can control elements it makes you one with them. Unless the supreme deity is actually made out of the sun and the ocean (no clue how she doesn’t evaporate) then idk what to tell you.

The Sinner and it was never said that he tried to make it into his likeness.

Sinner was created to be compatiable with the DK’s magic power though. Only Mel and Zel can do this because they also share in DK’s heritage.

disregarding even specific circumstances

There are no specific circumstances. You yourself said you’re going off of implication. I’m just going off of what has been definitively shown/ said.

There is no such thing as neutral resistance to cold unless you're dead. Are you dead?!

What? Humans have a body temperature of around 98-99 degrees Fahrenheit. General freezing point is when it drops to 95F. Scientists know this because that is the “neutral” for humans. Anybody who suffers from irregular body temperatures from this norm has a disease. A preference to a certain condition isn’t a weakness.

So now The Sinner is a perfect, ideal being?! The very fact that Merlin ended up discovering any elemental value on the minus(even in rapport with the others) she could exploit in its halves' make-up makes the "no weaknesses" phrasing beforehand a fallacy.

Again you are putting words in the manga. They aren’t weaknesses. Merlin said she found elements that they were least resistant to. And turned them into a weakness. Not elements that were their kryptonite from the start . Everyone has one. You can’t expect that Merlin only beat them by chance.

Claiming that "The One is invincible" caused another such storm of confusion, given that that feature would've placed him above even the god who created the holder's means to achieve the form in power, even if for that 1 minute. Then "True Night" and Mel's true ability came up and the characters holding these advantages over The One were still inferior overall to the PGs and their competences. A fault is an imperfection and all the characters are chock full of them. There's still nothing in the counters I get convincing me that those sorts of elemental faults are automatically part of Elizabeth's build. She definitely has others, but elemental ones are the unlikeliest of them a

Again misquoting the manga. She never said they were invincible.

Double impact was explained so far as taking an elemental resistance flaw and amping it up, until it is clearly said that it works on any flaw, it stays like that.

It was never said that it needs a flaw to work. It was said that double impact can be used to discover flaws, but never that a “flaw” was necessary. You’re adding words to the manga that don’t exist. You don’t write this manga and can’t just ask people to disprove a negative. There’s a reason why that exists.

but her biological connection to the highest level of elemental manipulator makes me severely doubt she has elemental weaknesses that can be exploited by Merlin with Double Impact.

Well cool doubt it if you want but until it’s proven I’d rather not theorize about it.

Anyway, ability/power inheritance is a standard theme of this story with parents-children. It gets tweaked here and there, but it pretty much proves the saying about the apple and the tree true.

Yeah but it’s never been stated that she inherited anything like that

 

[Undina]

Was still his decision, she advised against it but he has his pride. Besides, she knew Zeldris was out there, and back then he was hyped able to break the curse
No Chandler said her performance against ON was only possible with Infinite magic. Elizabeth canonically has no where close to Merlin's MP

Spoiler

I didnt say Eli couldnt possibly be invulnerable to them. I said Eli's doesnt default invulnerable to anything, no character does. Youre wanking.
You never made up ark properties lol? So it preventing teleportation is actually in the manga? It doing extra damage to Merlin is in the manga? No.
I didnt say Merlin was resistant to ark, i dont know where you got that from.
After holding Rhitta in the One for 2 seconds, Escanor had enough power stored to fight TOD in his friggin night form, who knows how powerful a Charge & Fire of that would be. As for why he doesnt do this more, to preserve his life, Escanor uses Merlin's glasses to stay in night mode whenever he can.
Escanor also continued to fight TOD directly after using The One... at night. So yeah, stalling is a guaranteed victory. Merlin/Escanor take this, Diane and King will be the true challenge.

Ugh, let's not be hypocritical, she never insisted on it, meaning she had other reasons to allow it to happen on their tight schedules, his pride bows to her advice as far as she makes it clear where the priorities should be.
Don't accuse people of doing something which, apparently, you've actually been doing! Do you know how different in meaning the words "likely" in its various comparison forms and "infinite"( in absolutely anything and everything) are?! You're relying on abuse of plot armor to write Merlin into some "limitless" OP character while generalising flaws that have never been generalised in the story. Merlin's discourse was limited to what she took into consideration about Chandler and Cusack and no other character, to be extending those weaknesses to characters that are maybe the unlikeliest in their whole universe to have them is a gross exaggeration.
You're wanking Merlin and grossly downplaying an extremely popular theme in this series, main power traits or features inheritance from one parent to their child or children.

As far as I see on the page you offered, she enchanted the bit of magic power going into Teleport with her ability so that it doesn't stop happening(she basically froze that amount of MP fueling the PC into not getting consumed,that won't prevent PC from being burst with something stronger, she does not have infinite magic power, nor do I believe she can do that to herself even with Infinity. That is wanking of the most ridiculous level.

I dropped my assumptions on Light's effect on Teleportation several posts ago, exactly because I don't want to fall into the same wanking boat with you, but there is no changing the fact that Ark has been and can be basically used as shield and physical defense against close range attacks if any non-goddess where to enter it and its efficiency in causing burns relies only in the dynamic of power imbued into the Ark-target's resistance to Ark/Light(both race specific and that influenced by personal PL stats which sometimes support the auxiliary features). There is no changing the fact that PC is a demonic skill and it remains unresolved if it can't be purged away. It corrupts the three-dimensional space, so, whatever, I could be ajerk too and presume to have Elizabeth "god-moding" for the lulz, like you're doing to Merlin.
You keep going at the same ideas over and over even if they don't have any basis. At least I'm speculating on the basis of actual non-plot convenient information(traits and patterns) from the manga.

At no point is it stated that the "Sunshine" energy in Rhitta was from The One, for the last time, Rhitta can't store that level of energy, whatever it is. That's why Escanor couldn't use it after his battle with "Estarossa" to absorb the heat of his nearing then entering The One so that he avoids destroying the area still rather close to Lyonesse. He told Merlin that he returned to his day-form with energy from the stored Sunshine, which could've been from his early morning form(VS Izraf, VS Galand, VS "Estarossa"), but it still wasn't anywhere near to what he had going for him as The One.

Also, I've found something I hadn't noticed before, Cusack got to cast Resonant which is still an attack in essence and didn't get insta-hit with an Infinity imbued trap of Merlin's, even though there's no way he made her off-page drop DI the exact instant he entered her psyche, so much for Infinity being that broken.

Anyway, I'm getting bored with non-sensical butchering of word semantics(that goes for you too, @MrSchmitty7, maybe you both should look up the words weakness, perfection, flaw, ideal, likely, default, to generalise, to discover-hint! it refers to something already existing, including flaws and weaknesses- you know what, try to figure out how absurdly you're trying to twist every single concept just to get to wank a skill that never had its usefulness generalised, yet grossly downplay other possibilities, not stated, but at least implied).

Also, @MrSchmitty7 it's duly noted: next time I think I have a terrible disease instead of some minor thing, I'll first go to a person actually carrying it, get myself infected, then visit the doctor to prove to him that I do have it even though my visit is in the hopes of finding out I don't, but, hey, I can't go to anyone asking them to prove a claim in the negative(that I'm not infected with some deadly disease) unless I prove to them first the positive claim( that I do)...cause, you know, logic(or at least you) says you can't ask for that kind of proof unless you can actually prove the opposite. How convenient this sort of "logic", right?!

Yeah, I'm rather agreeing with T25 right now, there's no point to trying to prove any direction right now involving a still mysterious AM Mel and goddess Elizabeth.

However, if basic claims still go, as others dared:
Without plot convenience(yeah, it's always a time of day when my brawn is bigger than your brawn) and random "god-modding"(I don't know how my main ability works even after 3000 years, but when I decide I want it to work, I say so and it does, so if I first say someone doesn't have weaknesses/flaws, they don't, but then if I say they do have this and that, they suddenly do)-I'm sorry, Merlin fans, but that was the worst explanation of a save even topping "I forgot I had blessings, so a curse ignored and sneaked past them, for a whole month".
Meliodas and Elizabeth for round 1, cause on closer analysis, both Infinity and PC are flawed, therefore, imperfect, and there are ways to even prevent Escanor entering The One. Lol at those who think BR AM Mel and Ellie would start the battle by posing like AM Mel did at Corrand and just wait for Merlin to cast PC or other crazy stuff. Mel can launch himself at her and while she dodges him and momentarily gets distracted, Escanor gets distracted too cause he's a protective fool and Elizabeth simply locks him in an Ark and chucks him out of the arena(the way she chucked Maelstarossa into that mountain) before he can burst himself out. End of story. Cause out of the arena, out of the game.
You guys wanted strategy, here's the simplest, it also helps that Escanor and Merlin ar more chit-chatty(either boasting or explaining their skills) than their opponents.
Meliodas and Elizabeth manage round 2 as well, thanks to finding(fast, very likely) a way to knock Diane out. Sorry, but Diane has still too much to catch up on in her development.

 

[Eternita]

Im not gonna get into a huge debate.
The point of the top tier demons, is that they had no weaknesses. So Merlin said she will make one. That was in the chapter before double impact reveal ok.
Next chapter Merlin explains what double impact does, first impact is mixed with an array of elements to determine which element someone is LEAST resistant too.
No matter who you are you will have an element that u are least resistant too. Saying Eli or the SD has high resistance to everything, doesn't matter. They will still have a resistance they are least resistant too. Just because u can create something out of elements doesn't mean u are immune to it. The function of the spell is to indicate what they are weaker towards even if it is just slight and then the second impact lowers their resistance to that specific weaker resistance. That is the function of the spell in of itself.

The evidence of this...the chapter. The better evidence is that she used thee most basic and weak lightning and Wind spell to show just how effective this was. She almost destroyed them with level one spells all because of infinity and double impact.

Also Magic is Eli strong suit? Healing and curing seems her strong suit, even the whale she used doesn't seem like it cold kill anything but demonic magic.
On top of that, Eli only knows Ark and goddess magic.
You are picturing her going up against the sin of GLUTTONY herself. Who by the way is the real strong suit in Magic. We have yet to know the limit cap of what the Sages knew magic wise, and could do magic wise. We do not know what Gowther taught Merlin, except stating she would surpass him. Whats more Merlin is a genius on the battle field. She is constantly calculating her knowledge alone on all the sins and Eli puts her at a position where we cannot say she can't do something against them. She knows their weaknesses and will exploit it even before they blink.
In a magic fight Merlin wins. Her arsenal should be the highest amongst the sins being not only a mage but a glutton for knowledge, which she maintained for all these years non stop.
Her reveal will come, and hoping it will be through the DK who will address her and their interaction in the past.

But again i will state. In a magic battle Eli who can use ark, healing and a water whale. Will lose to the Sage who can use elemental magic, time magic, perfect cube, illusion magic, and im 100% certain the list go on, and is also an expert when it comes to magic.

And to the topic of this thread.
Merlin x The One Escanor wins.

 

[T25]

Im not gonna get into a huge debate.
The point of the top tier demons, is that they had no weaknesses. So Merlin said she will make one. That was in the chapter before double impact reveal ok.
Next chapter Merlin explains what double impact does, first impact is mixed with an array of elements to determine which element someone is LEAST resistant too.
No matter who you are you will have an element that u are least resistant too. Saying Eli or the SD has high resistance to everything, doesn't matter. They will still have a resistance they are least resistant too. Just because u can create something out of elements doesn't mean u are immune to it. The function of the spell is to indicate what they are weaker towards even if it is just slight and then the second impact lowers their resistance to that specific weaker resistance. That is the function of the spell in of itself.

The evidence of this...the chapter. The better evidence is that she used thee most basic and weak lightning and Wind spell to show just how effective this was. She almost destroyed them with level one spells all because of infinity and double impact.

Also Magic is Eli strong suit? Healing and curing seems her strong suit, even the whale she used doesn't seem like it cold kill anything but demonic magic.
On top of that, Eli only knows Ark and goddess magic.
You are picturing her going up against the sin of GLUTTONY herself. Who by the way is the real strong suit in Magic. We have yet to know the limit cap of what the Sages knew magic wise, and could do magic wise. We do not know what Gowther taught Merlin, except stating she would surpass him. Whats more Merlin is a genius on the battle field. She is constantly calculating her knowledge alone on all the sins and Eli puts her at a position where we cannot say she can't do something against them. She knows their weaknesses and will exploit it even before they blink.
In a magic fight Merlin wins. Her arsenal should be the highest amongst the sins being not only a mage but a glutton for knowledge, which she maintained for all these years non stop.
Her reveal will come, and hoping it will be through the DK who will address her and their interaction in the past.

But again i will state. In a magic battle Eli who can use ark, healing and a water whale. Will lose to the Sage who can use elemental magic, time magic, perfect cube, illusion magic, and im 100% certain the list go on, and is also an expert when it comes to magic.

And to the topic of this thread.
Merlin x The One Escanor wins.

I find it kind of ironic how you say we don’t know the limit of what the sages can do and Merlin is yet to be revealed when you are speaking in contrast....to Eli of all people. The one with secrets is Eli not Merlin. You say Merlins reveal will come hopefully with her interaction with the dk but Merlin was a child at the time. By in large, Merlins reveal already came. She was born with infinity and was sought after as a little girl by the dk and sd, taking gifts from them and had her home destroyed as a consequence. At some point she was trained by Gowther somehow in the dark artes. This is her origin story. We maybe waiting for more into this by way of something like a gaiden but it is quite likely that the time frame would be within these events.

Eli at that same time was presumably already centuries old. What do we know of her in those times? A near nothing. We have seen very little of the capabilities of someone narratively claimed to be on some level of parity with some of the most powerful characters in the series. As it so happens, she is currently weakened to unknown levels by the nature of her circumstance. We have not seen the extent of her offense by nature of her character that does not take initiative to harm. We have not seen her interactions with her mother. We have been given no answer to why she showed the second highest number of wings, ethereal or no, in the series, one pair below her mother. We have little origin story for her other than she is a goddess who fell for a demon and the daughter to their monarch who cursed her. We are unaware of the abilities she possessed in the past we know a bare minimum of. We have been given way more questions than answers in her regard completely unlike merlin. This is the most significant female mc of the cast. What have we been given of her past in comparison to all the origin stories of the cast thus far?

Merlin is versatile. She is weaker in magic power compared to these powers before her. It is her innate ability that supplements this. Merlin has shown more and more of her abilities, so there is a much larger pool of info to pull from. Eli’s narrative by its very nature had not allowed this. Therefore, this debate is inherently based off inadequate supply of data. Elis past is Eli’s prime. We have been given nothing of that past. Merlin’s prime is now. We are currently reading it. Quite the disparity. How can you argue in favor something you know nothing about? As of now, until the story progresses towards its end where we learn more, arguments for mel and Eli will inherently be at a disadvantage. “Meliodas assault mode and Eli with her powers unlocked”; we don’t know them.

Oh by the way, you said that Eli is only good with ark and goddess magic but Merlin predominantly employs demon magic. Exterminate ray, perfect cube, chrono coffin etc. Those are all demon magic. Eli was implied to have taught dolor and gloxinia a goddess type of time magic. There’s also implication to Eli’s prowess in the field of the mind. Also potentially, noteworthy was Merlins implication that Eli could bypass Merlin’s goddess brainwashing immunity. Having a large array of magic skills falls short in significance when they are unable to have an adequate effect.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Merlin x The One Escanor wins.

I'm actually baffled, how do people think they can win? Granted, ''The One'' would win but without it they get stomped pretty easily.

Y'all need to prove this shit to me or its head-cannon, seriously.

Elizabeth MAY have a resistance to said elements that her mother wields, calling it factual is wrong and calling it 100% wrong is also wrong. It's a maybe, there's no need to argue and go off-topic.

 

[T25]

I'm actually baffled, how do people think they can win? Granted, ''The One'' would win but without it they get stomped pretty easily.

Y'all need to prove this shit to me or its head-cannon, seriously.

Elizabeth MAY have a resistance to said elements that her mother wields, calling it factual is wrong and calling it 100% wrong is also wrong. It's a maybe, there's no need to argue and go off-topic.

Saying “‘the one’ would win” is also wrong

 

[Eternita]

By in large, Merlins reveal already came. She was born with infinity and was sought after as a little girl by the dk and sd, taking gifts from them and had her home destroyed as a consequence. At some point she was trained by Gowther somehow in the dark artes. This is her origin story. We maybe waiting for more into this by way of something like a gaiden but it is quite likely that the time frame would be within these events.

Really? The one with secrets is Eli? There has been more to the experience of the sins than the first initial information, the Gaiden is always different from how we first perceived. No one except the dk or sd can tell what actual events took place between them, everyone else just heard it from other sources. Gowther trained her in JUST the dark arts? I dont remember seeing that being mentioned, merlin also had other masters what did they teach her?
Eli we know she is the daughter of SD, we know about her clan and what her clan specialise in, we know why she is reincarnated, how many wings she has, her relationships...her origin has been said. Everything mentioned about Eli is also confirmed nothing is debatable, we even had flashbacks to seeing her in the past.
With Merlin we have not seen or been told by anyone relevant to her past about what actually transpired. Except Eli saying call me sis sis. Zel and the commandments heard about her not even chandler knew much about her.
We know nothing about the sages capabilities, nothing about her relations with them, why she made a deal with the rulers and what actually transpired.

Eli at that same time was presumably already centuries old. What do we know of her in those times? A near nothing. We have seen very little of the capabilities of someone narratively claimed to be on some level of parity with some of the most powerful characters in the series. As it so happens, she is currently weakened to unknown levels by the nature of her circumstance. We have not seen the extent of her offense by nature of her character that does not take initiative to harm. We have not seen her interactions with her mother. We have been given no answer to why she showed the second highest number of wings, ethereal or no, in the series, one pair below her mother. We have little origin story for her other than she is a goddess who fell for a demon and the daughter to their monarch who cursed her. We are unaware of the abilities she possessed in the past we know a bare minimum of. We have been given way more questions than answers in her regard completely unlike merlin. This is the most significant female mc of the cast. What have we been given of her past in comparison to all the origin stories of the cast thus far?

We have seen her act in her original body, despite in her current nature nothing she doesn't seem that much stronger than Ludo. We have not even seen every spell in Merlin's arsenal and its silly to just jump onto Eli and state that she is the one hiding the offensive power. We have not seen her interactions with her mother? We havent seen Merlin with her father, gowther, sages the list goes on. We have seen Eli's interaction with a number of people related to her past and also know that it was her mother who cursed her alongside the demon king himself and it is pretty easy to conclude this wasn't because she was daughter of the year. We have not at all been given more questions to her than with Merlin. With Merlin everything is still up in the air, with Elizabeth we know alot more things for fact. We know way more about Elizabeth without questions in comparison to Merlin.

Merlin is versatile. She is weaker in magic power compared to these powers before her. It is her innate ability that supplements this. Merlin has shown more and more of her abilities, so there is a much larger pool of info to pull from. Eli’s narrative by its very nature had not allowed this. Therefore, this debate is inherently based off inadequate supply of data. Elis past is Eli’s prime. We have been given nothing of that past. Merlin’s prime is now. We are currently reading it. Quite the disparity. How can you argue in favor something you know nothing about? As of now, until the story progresses towards its end where we learn more, arguments for mel and Eli will inherently be at a disadvantage. “Meliodas assault mode and Eli with her powers unlocked”; we don’t know them.

Merlin weaker in magic power? Yes Infinity can increase output but it has many ways of application. All we have seen in terms of magic is level rate is exterminate ray against chandler. Not to mention merlin applied it first and chanlder being egotiscal sent the same attack at a higher output. But this didn't exactly overide Merlin's attack. Also we know nothing about how magic truly works for mages,sages etc. And on top of that i Fraudrin commented on Merlins icicle castle and said it was a formidable strong magic and Merlin said it was just the run of the mill basic ice spell. We have had constant indications that there is more levels to Merlin nakaba does not want to reveal. There is no question that there is more to merlin being kept than with Eli.
Elis narrative has not allowed for her to demonstrate her abilities? We have gotten alot of abilites from her, past and present. Yes we have seen things from Merlin but unlike with Merlin we have a better indication of Eli's limit and potential. We have been given things of the past for Eli.

I agree on the note that we don't know a thing and the debate won't have a conclusion.

Oh by the way, you said that Eli is only good with ark and goddess magic but Merlin predominantly employs demon magic. Exterminate ray, perfect cube, chrono coffin etc. Those are all demon magic. Eli was implied to have taught dolor and gloxinia a goddess type of time magic. There’s also implication to Eli’s prowess in the field of the mind. Also potentially, noteworthy was Merlins implication that Eli could bypass Merlin’s goddess brainwashing immunity. Having a large array of magic skills falls short in significance when they are unable to have an adequate effect.

You state that Eli can do all of these things and but previously said we don't know what she can do ability wise? Make sense?
Also what you said literally doesn't change the fact...she is good with Goddess magic. Great??
Merlin is a sage, we have seen snippets of sages and everytime they all had prominent staffs? Where is Merlins? What is Aldan St release? Because sacred treasures assist abilities also, so what can aldan assist with infinity? Yes she uses demon skills, but the fact as she herself admits she is a glutton for knowledge on top of Sages themselves clearly having something of their own and being independent from both clans, brings us back to more questions and mysteries with Merlin. What is she hiding why is she only doing these attacks? Without a doubt she can do more, she could of done her st release ages ago...from day one. But she hasn't so why is she holding back?
Also lets discuss this potential noteworthy implication, cause you missed the point of the chapter completely.
Eli didn't do anything to Merlin magic wise, the whole point of that moment between them was to hype Eli's emotional skill and their bond. When Eli kissed merlin on the forhead, Merlin remembered the time she kissed her before, Eli can bypass the immunity why? Because she isn't using goddess magic, she is using her authentic emotional being that was ignited in that act of sisterly kiss that ignited merlin. Everything Eli has done speech wise as come from her own heart and not false brainwashing of her clan, THAT is what Merlin is referencing and that is what gets past the immunity.
That was what that moment was about.

 

[T25]

Really? The one with secrets is Eli? There has been more to the experience of the sins than the first initial information, the Gaiden is always different from how we first perceived. No one except the dk or sd can tell what actual events took place between them, everyone else just heard it from other sources. Gowther trained her in JUST the dark arts? I dont remember seeing that being mentioned, merlin also had other masters what did they teach her?
Eli we know she is the daughter of SD, we know about her clan and what her clan specialise in, we know why she is reincarnated, how many wings she has, her relationships...her origin has been said. Everything mentioned about Eli is also confirmed nothing is debatable, we even had flashbacks to seeing her in the past.
With Merlin we have not seen or been told by anyone relevant to her past about what actually transpired. Except Eli saying call me sis sis. Zel and the commandments heard about her not even chandler knew much about her.
We know nothing about the sages capabilities, nothing about her relations with them, why she made a deal with the rulers and what actually transpired.

This Merlin of the past you speak of was a child. What significance in powers are to be revealed of her past that are more useful and significant now after 3000 years of study, experimentation and engorging of knowledge in comparison to when she was a little girl? Eli at that point in time was presumably already hundreds of years old. What do we know of the history and extent of the capabilities of this Eli that existed an abundant amount of years before Merlin was even born, when Mel was at his peak, mael and zel were youths, and before the conflict between the dc and gc was ever ignited to a full scale war? To say nothing about Eli is debatable is absurd.

We have seen her act in her original body, despite in her current nature nothing she doesn't seem that much stronger than Ludo. We have not even seen every spell in Merlin's arsenal and its silly to just jump onto Eli and state that she is the one hiding the offensive power. We have not seen her interactions with her mother? We havent seen Merlin with her father, gowther, sages the list goes on. We have seen Eli's interaction with a number of people related to her past and also know that it was her mother who cursed her alongside the demon king himself and it is pretty easy to conclude this wasn't because she was daughter of the year. We have not at all been given more questions to her than with Merlin. With Merlin everything is still up in the air, with Elizabeth we know alot more things for fact. We know way more about Elizabeth without questions in comparison to Merlin.

We are discussing in the context of power right? We haven’t seen all of Merlin’s arsenal but what have we seen far more of her in comparison to Eli? Again, what would you learn about the powers of a little girl 3000 years ago when that girls prime is the present? It’s very easy to debate who we have more general background info on but when we debate power, in their prime, who has shown more? Merlin’s prime is now. She was a child not long before Mel and Eli’s death. What are we seeing now? Eli’s prime was in the past. What have we seen of this past?

We have seen how versatile, skilled, and intelligent Merlin is since her introduction. Yet her capabilities are up in the air unlike her centuries older sister who has been claimed to be on the level of mel, ludo and mael but has had only one showing in the entire manga that has briefly implied it? How?

Merlin weaker in magic power? Yes Infinity can increase output but it has many ways of application. All we have seen in terms of magic is level rate is exterminate ray against chandler. Not to mention merlin applied it first and chanlder being egotiscal sent the same attack at a higher output. But this didn't exactly overide Merlin's attack. Also we know nothing about how magic truly works for mages,sages etc. And on top of that i Fraudrin commented on Merlins icicle castle and said it was a formidable strong magic and Merlin said it was just the run of the mill basic ice spell. We have had constant indications that there is more levels to Merlin nakaba does not want to reveal. There is no question that there is more to merlin being kept than with Eli.
Elis narrative has not allowed for her to demonstrate her abilities? We have gotten alot of abilites from her, past and present. Yes we have seen things from Merlin but unlike with Merlin we have a better indication of Eli's limit and potential. We have been given things of the past for Eli.

I agree on the note that we don't know a thing and the debate won't have a conclusion.

The debate may have a conclusion but that time isn’t now.

You state that Eli can do all of these things and but previously said we don't know what she can do ability wise? Make sense?
Also what you said literally doesn't change the fact...she is good with Goddess magic. Great??
Merlin is a sage, we have seen snippets of sages and everytime they all had prominent staffs? Where is Merlins? What is Aldan St release? Because sacred treasures assist abilities also, so what can aldan assist with infinity? Yes she uses demon skills, but the fact as she herself admits she is a glutton for knowledge on top of Sages themselves clearly having something of their own and being independent from both clans, brings us back to more questions and mysteries with Merlin. What is she hiding why is she only doing these attacks? Without a doubt she can do more, she could of done her st release ages ago...from day one. But she hasn't so why is she holding back?
Also lets discuss this potential noteworthy implication, cause you missed the point of the chapter completely.
Eli didn't do anything to Merlin magic wise, the whole point of that moment between them was to hype Eli's emotional skill and their bond. When Eli kissed merlin on the forhead, Merlin remembered the time she kissed her before, Eli can bypass the immunity why? Because she isn't using goddess magic, she is using her authentic emotional being that was ignited in that act of sisterly kiss that ignited merlin. Everything Eli has done speech wise as come from her own heart and not false brainwashing of her clan, THAT is what Merlin is referencing and that is what gets past the immunity.
That was what that moment was about.

Yes I thought I made it clear that we don’t know the extent of Eli’s abilities. Wether nothing is shown or a little is shown, that doesn’t change that we wouldn’t know the extent. Does it? We don’t know the extent of Merlin’s abilities either but we sure no more of her abilities than the ones Eli does.

Oh and that last part, I was aware of that. Her ability to cause an army to voluntarily leave adds something to that though. No point getting to into it though. Could be nothing.

Hmm I think it necessary to state that the amount of info to be given is not as important as how significant the info is.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Saying “‘the one’ would win” is also wrong

How so?

''The One'' would have a fair chance at defeating Prime Meliodas/Elizabeth, but its rather unreliable since its duration is only 1 minute - something the pair could most likely stall for and then recover from.

 

[T25]

How so?

''The One'' would have a fair chance at defeating Prime Meliodas/Elizabeth, but its rather unreliable since its duration is only 1 minute - something the pair could most likely stall for and then recover from.

“Would” and “could” have different implications. It’s unknown wether Mel or Eli were capable of combating the one.

 

[Eternita]

This Merlin of the past you speak of was a child. What significance in powers are to be revealed of her past that are more useful and significant now after 3000 years of study, experimentation and engorging of knowledge in comparison to when she was a little girl? Eli at that point in time was presumably already hundreds of years old. What do we know of the history and extent of the capabilities of this Eli that existed an abundant amount of years before Merlin was even born, when Mel was at his peak, mael and zel were youths, and before the conflict between the dc and gc was ever ignited to a full scale war? To say nothing about Eli is debatable is absurd.

The AAs and members of the commandments are older than Merlin, Chandler and Cusack are much older than merlin, doesn't mean they have a magnitude of power that puts them above her. Just bringing age into this doesn't mean Eli is at a place where she is vast above everyone else.

We are discussing in the context of power right? We haven’t seen all of Merlin’s arsenal but what have we seen far more of her in comparison to Eli? Again, what would you learn about the powers of a little girl 3000 years ago when that girls prime is the present? It’s very easy to debate who we have more general background info on but when we debate power, in their prime, who has shown more? Merlin’s prime is now. She was a child not long before Mel and Eli’s death. What are we seeing now? Eli’s prime was in the past. What have we seen of this past?

We have seen how versatile, skilled, and intelligent Merlin is since her introduction. Yet her capabilities are up in the air unlike her centuries older sister who has been claimed to be on the level of mel, ludo and mael but has had only one showing in the entire manga that has briefly implied it? How?

That little girl was a prodigy who is said to have surpassed her masters...as a little girl. It doesn't matter about who is prime, the point is even as a child she was capable of much that we have yet to know or see. Elis was in her prime, during the war. We have seen how she handle things, even now with her prime mentally returning we are seeing how she handles things. It doesn't matter who is in whatever prime, a child prodigy can master the piano to a level equal or even surpassing someone who had spent years practicing. Much of Merlins nature, power and learning and knowledge is in the past. What do we know about these? Hardly nothing.

The debate may have a conclusion but that time isn’t now.

Agreed indeed.

 

[OtakuFreak]

“Would” and “could” have different implications. It’s unknown wether Mel or Eli were capable of combating the one.

Well, even if they couldn't fight it. I'm assuming they would be fully capable of stalling against it.

Escanor wouldn't be able to use any magical attacks since Meliodas has full counter, Elizabeth could use ark shields and other numerous methods to defend against Escanor and even both of them get beaten badly, they have ridiculous self-sustain through Elizabeth's healing.

There's a reason they were able to not die instantaneously against the Gods, even if the parents were holding back.

 

[T25]

The AAs and members of the commandments are older than Merlin, Chandler and Cusack are much older than merlin, doesn't mean they have a magnitude of power that puts them above her. Just bringing age into this doesn't mean Eli is at a place where she is vast above everyone else.



That little girl was a prodigy who is said to have surpassed her masters...as a little girl. It doesn't matter about who is prime, the point is even as a child she was capable of much that we have yet to know or see. Elis was in her prime, during the war. We have seen how she handle things, even now with her prime mentally returning we are seeing how she handles things. It doesn't matter who is in whatever prime, a child prodigy can master the piano to a level equal or even surpassing someone who had spent years practicing. Much of Merlins nature, power and learning and knowledge is in the past. What do we know about these? Hardly nothing.



Agreed indeed.

I didn’t use age to put Eli above Merlin in power. I used age to denote that there is a history we don’t know about. The argument can be used for Merlin in the millennia she had since the end of the war. Difference is, that leads to the current Merlin quite differently than those millennia lead to the current Eli. We know quite a bit about the current Merlin’s abilities. Current Merlin is the little girl that grew up and became a power. Current Eli is a watered down power of her past. In time we will know whose past bears more significance in regards to revealing their power. Merlin doesn’t really seem to be in that position.

Merlin’s nature is very prevalent as is elis. Her power is not in the past because she was not a power in the past. She was a gifted child. Her power is now. Eli’s power is in the past. Eli was a full grown goddess implied and noted to hold parity with the top echelons of the two clans. Her power was then. Merlin’s learning was in the past. Eli’s learning was even further in the past. We know who taught Merlin. Who taught Eli? We don’t even know if she had a teacher. Merlin’s knowledge is now. She is at the height of her knowledge because she has learned much in her 3000 years. The knowledge she has now spits on what she knew as a child I would assume. Eli’s knowledge is also now for the same reason. Based on this whose past is more significant?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2019 ---

Well, even if they couldn't fight it. I'm assuming they would be fully capable of stalling against it.

Escanor wouldn't be able to use any magical attacks since Meliodas has full counter, Elizabeth could use ark shields and other numerous methods to defend against Escanor and even both of them get beaten badly, they have ridiculous self-sustain through Elizabeth's healing.

There's a reason they were able to not die instantaneously against the Gods, even if the parents were holding back.

I was actually leaning more to the other side. Its possible Mel or Eli could defeat “the one” or at least combat him rather than stall as stalling bares an implication that I don’t mean. Zel was not stalling “the one”, he was repelling him. It isnt exactly hard to believe it possible that Mel is capable of combating “the one” if zel can repel him. Even without Zels example, it isn’t hard to accept that Mel could in light of the possibilities within the narrative.

 

[BurlapJack]

The meli and eli team get's the victory royale

I side with those who argued for this team

 

[Ger]

oh god we already have this idea of mael EVEN without reaching his peak is greater The One escanor but yet we have this downplay that escanor has achance beating prime meliodas who demon king himself obssessed WANTING to possessed the body of. Th end of the day Prime mel blitzes both of them at once.

 

[Seven777]

Ugh, let's not be hypocritical, she never insisted on it, meaning she had other reasons to allow it to happen on their tight schedules, his pride bows to her advice as far as she makes it clear where the priorities should be.
Don't accuse people of doing something which, apparently, you've actually been doing! Do you know how different in meaning the words "likely" in its various comparison forms and "infinite"( in absolutely anything and everything) are?! You're relying on abuse of plot armor to write Merlin into some "limitless" OP character while generalising flaws that have never been generalised in the story. Merlin's discourse was limited to what she took into consideration about Chandler and Cusack and no other character, to be extending those weaknesses to characters that are maybe the unlikeliest in their whole universe to have them is a gross exaggeration.
You're wanking Merlin and grossly downplaying an extremely popular theme in this series, main power traits or features inheritance from one parent to their child or children.

As far as I see on the page you offered, she enchanted the bit of magic power going into Teleport with her ability so that it doesn't stop happening(she basically froze that amount of MP fueling the PC into not getting consumed,that won't prevent PC from being burst with something stronger, she does not have infinite magic power, nor do I believe she can do that to herself even with Infinity. That is wanking of the most ridiculous level.

I dropped my assumptions on Light's effect on Teleportation several posts ago, exactly because I don't want to fall into the same wanking boat with you, but there is no changing the fact that Ark has been and can be basically used as shield and physical defense against close range attacks if any non-goddess where to enter it and its efficiency in causing burns relies only in the dynamic of power imbued into the Ark-target's resistance to Ark/Light(both race specific and that influenced by personal PL stats which sometimes support the auxiliary features). There is no changing the fact that PC is a demonic skill and it remains unresolved if it can't be purged away. It corrupts the three-dimensional space, so, whatever, I could be ajerk too and presume to have Elizabeth "god-moding" for the lulz, like you're doing to Merlin.
You keep going at the same ideas over and over even if they don't have any basis. At least I'm speculating on the basis of actual non-plot convenient information(traits and patterns) from the manga.

At no point is it stated that the "Sunshine" energy in Rhitta was from The One, for the last time, Rhitta can't store that level of energy, whatever it is. That's why Escanor couldn't use it after his battle with "Estarossa" to absorb the heat of his nearing then entering The One so that he avoids destroying the area still rather close to Lyonesse. He told Merlin that he returned to his day-form with energy from the stored Sunshine, which could've been from his early morning form(VS Izraf, VS Galand, VS "Estarossa"), but it still wasn't anywhere near to what he had going for him as The One.

Also, I've found something I hadn't noticed before, Cusack got to cast Resonant which is still an attack in essence and didn't get insta-hit with an Infinity imbued trap of Merlin's, even though there's no way he made her off-page drop DI the exact instant he entered her psyche, so much for Infinity being that broken.

Anyway, I'm getting bored with non-sensical butchering of word semantics(that goes for you too, @MrSchmitty7, maybe you both should look up the words weakness, perfection, flaw, ideal, likely, default, to generalise, to discover-hint! it refers to something already existing, including flaws and weaknesses- you know what, try to figure out how absurdly you're trying to twist every single concept just to get to wank a skill that never had its usefulness generalised, yet grossly downplay other possibilities, not stated, but at least implied).

Also, @MrSchmitty7 it's duly noted: next time I think I have a terrible disease instead of some minor thing, I'll first go to a person actually carrying it, get myself infected, then visit the doctor to prove to him that I do have it even though my visit is in the hopes of finding out I don't, but, hey, I can't go to anyone asking them to prove a claim in the negative(that I'm not infected with some deadly disease) unless I prove to them first the positive claim( that I do)...cause, you know, logic(or at least you) says you can't ask for that kind of proof unless you can actually prove the opposite. How convenient this sort of "logic", right?!

Yeah, I'm rather agreeing with T25 right now, there's no point to trying to prove any direction right now involving a still mysterious AM Mel and goddess Elizabeth.

However, if basic claims still go, as others dared:
Without plot convenience(yeah, it's always a time of day when my brawn is bigger than your brawn) and random "god-modding"(I don't know how my main ability works even after 3000 years, but when I decide I want it to work, I say so and it does, so if I first say someone doesn't have weaknesses/flaws, they don't, but then if I say they do have this and that, they suddenly do)-I'm sorry, Merlin fans, but that was the worst explanation of a save even topping "I forgot I had blessings, so a curse ignored and sneaked past them, for a whole month".
Meliodas and Elizabeth for round 1, cause on closer analysis, both Infinity and PC are flawed, therefore, imperfect, and there are ways to even prevent Escanor entering The One. Lol at those who think BR AM Mel and Ellie would start the battle by posing like AM Mel did at Corrand and just wait for Merlin to cast PC or other crazy stuff. Mel can launch himself at her and while she dodges him and momentarily gets distracted, Escanor gets distracted too cause he's a protective fool and Elizabeth simply locks him in an Ark and chucks him out of the arena(the way she chucked Maelstarossa into that mountain) before he can burst himself out. End of story. Cause out of the arena, out of the game.
You guys wanted strategy, here's the simplest, it also helps that Escanor and Merlin ar more chit-chatty(either boasting or explaining their skills) than their opponents.
Meliodas and Elizabeth manage round 2 as well, thanks to finding(fast, very likely) a way to knock Diane out. Sorry, but Diane has still too much to catch up on in her development.

Uhuh, this will be my last post to you on the subject. I too grow bored of this and It's clear you don't want to discuss this rationally or civilly.
Merlin didnt insist on it, but she did object to it, meaning Escanor's strategy was viable(though not to her liking) but not the only route she could take.
Zeldris was also stumped when Merlin gave him Mela inside PC, despite the fact he was just gonna give it to Mel, which confirms that from Zel's perspective, PC couldnt be broken even with the two of them, at least not before Elizabeth died(though why he didnt just give it to Chandler boggles the mind, unless he doesnt know what absolute cancel is).

Chandler literally says Merlin has infinite magic power, your opinion on the matter is worthless next to that. Merlin has only gotten more and more powerful as the manga has gone on. She went from afraid of Galand, to oneshotting Grayroad, to afraid of Meliodas, to keeping up with and even defeating Chandler/Cusack. You can complain about it being an asspull to us "Merlin fans" all you want, maybe it is, I dont know if Merlin has just been holding back all this time or if the constant danger has just turned her genius mind away from research towards combat, and increased her power as a result. Either way, her power is real, and your efforts to downplay it despite words from the manga is ridiculous. Even Merlin's magic traps alone are ridiculously powerful. A spell that hits you every time you move, talk, attack, or cast a spell? Insane, developing these spells has made her OP as hell, Cusack really created a monster, and unlike , "invulnerable to all elements" Elizabeth, she actually has shown her strength and how it can be used.

Anyway, to sum up, i think its pretty clear Merlin and Escanor take this. Even if the fight starts at night, given Rhitta's newly revealed functions and Escanor's performance against the Sinner he may just be able to survive with Merlin's help. And if the fight starts in the day? A near certain win. With Merlin's arsenal(PC, Teleportation, magical traps) stalling until noon would be a cakewalk, and once thats done she can unleash The One. Escanor could prob solo right there, but with Merlin separating them with PC and adding her own enormously powerful arsenal to the mix? Its a stomp.
Oh and if its out of the arena, out of the game, then Merlin oneshots.

Spoiler

 

[Ger]

Chandler literally says Merlin has infinite magic power, your opinion on the matter is worthless next to that. Merlin has only gotten more and more powerful as the manga has gone on

alright so merlin can destroy the universe with "infinite magic power" alright. cool so merlin>gods alright.

 

[Seven777]

alright so merlin can destroy the universe with "infinite magic power" alright. cool so merlin>gods alright.

Yeah she'll prob slaughter DK Mel eventually. I know she's looking worried at the moment, but she's actually just toying with him, you know? She'll destroy him when she's had enough, nothings impossible for the Infinity Woman.