Discussion Bam is not safe in Administrator tests

[Ripcord]

I was re-reading Season 1 when I realized something about tests and Regulars.

As it stands, normally Rankers are forbidden from interfering in Regulars areas - meaning they can’t interfere in tests and can’t attack Regulars. There have been two exceptions to this so far:

1. The Hell Train. There are areas between Stations and the Train where Rankers can brawl. The train itself was safe until Zahard’s orders came out. So did he revoke the safe status? Maybe Bam isn’t really safe anywhere.

2. The Admin test on the second floor. Lo Po Bia Ren, Yuri, and Kurdan were allowed to interfere in the Regulars area because the administrator allowed it. Granted, the administrator didn’t allow any further intervention (of Yuri saving Bam), but if the Admin wanted the admin could have allowed any level of Ranker involvement.

If any admins would be hostile to Bam or at least more sympathetic to Zahard, then Bam wouldn’t be any safer avoiding normal tests. I know it’s likely that Bam needs admin tests for a real challenge, but I don’t think he’s going to be safe from Rankers if he does this.

Seems to me there is a world, albeit a small one, that is outside of Zahard’s contracts. Maybe we will see more of it soon.

 

[Jammin]

I was re-reading Season 1 when I realized something about tests and Regulars.

As it stands, normally Rankers are forbidden from interfering in Regulars areas - meaning they can’t interfere in tests and can’t attack Regulars. There have been two exceptions to this so far:

1. The Hell Train. There are areas between Stations and the Train where Rankers can brawl. The train itself was safe until Zahard’s orders came out. So did he revoke the safe status? Maybe Bam isn’t really safe anywhere.

2. The Admin test on the second floor. Lo Po Bia Ren, Yuri, and Kurdan were allowed to interfere in the Regulars area because the administrator allowed it. Granted, the administrator didn’t allow any further intervention (of Yuri saving Bam), but if the Admin wanted the admin could have allowed any level of Ranker involvement.

If any admins would be hostile to Bam or at least more sympathetic to Zahard, then Bam wouldn’t be any safer avoiding normal tests. I know it’s likely that Bam needs admin tests for a real challenge, but I don’t think he’s going to be safe from Rankers if he does this.

Seems to me there is a world, albeit a small one, that is outside of Zahard’s contracts. Maybe we will see more of it soon.

I think maybe it's not as simple as it seems.

My impression was the administrators enforce things at their own discretion to a large degree and aren't omnipotent. So Rankers can absolutely break the rules but they are playing with fire when they do. And floors also seem to be factional. Like kingdoms unto themselves.

Like even on the station floor. The Koon that was in charge was kinda lazy and willing to go along with ignoring things. Where Evankhell allowed FUG's foothold to exist on the floor of test. I suspect most floors are going to be like that. With some safer than others.

 

[King Dryst]

It seems like it's a case of tardstomping Regulars with the potential for illicit, deliberate Ranker interference versus taking whatever the Admin decides it wants to make into the test and still the potential for those Rankers. In that case, then I'd tend to agree that it's best to just stick with the conventional route.

Bottom line is that Baam is going to need to become strong enough to take down Rankers during his spell with Evankhell. The Admins either will or won't permit Zahard's goons to try something regardless of what test he's taking. I still don't think that floor tests are going to be any major part of the narrative going forward, though. Everything seems to focus more on Baam's extracurricular misadventures these days.

 

[Brian Taboada]

Question:
Are "tower rules" applicable to all floors? (Like the tower is a country and each floor is a state)
Do Admins enforce the tower rules much to their own likely while adhering to them? (Much like local police)
Alternately, are the tower rules different on each floor and maybe agreed to in commonality much like the EU? (Where the tower rules are really local Admin rules agreed upon)

Trying to get a feel for how the rules may be bent/broken in the future.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Back on the 20th floor, baseball ranker made it so Baam had to fight him directly to pass the test, (if he wanted to pass alone) and the giant pig test was something they were supposed to fail, so it seems like the rankers in charge of testing could easily find ways to attack Baam, just by calling it a test and making up some rules.

Given that, I'd say regular tests are just as dangerous as admin ones, perhaps more so, since admins at least act in the best interest of the tower, rather than out of loyalty to Zahard. It'd depend on the individual admin of course, but if they see his as a necessary existence rather than a threat, he would be safe.

 

[kkck]

It's hard to say but I do think bam will enjoy regular protection again in the future. My point would be that there are rules and for the most part they are effective at keeping regulars safe from rankers but you also have loopholes which is what has happened every time we have seen a confrontation between a ranker and a regular so far.

So for instance when bam fought mule... Its not that bam didn't enjoy regular protections... The issue here is that bam practically rescinded it. We saw mule wanted to take the test and bam insisted on taking it alone. And then mule proposed the game we saw where bam had to basically fight him. I would argue the protection is meant to keep rankers from attacking regulars but it largely won't do much to protect regulars who go out of their way to be jackasses and pick fights with rankers.

Regarding how discretionary this is administrator wise, I'd say the main issue here is that we don't know how exactly this protection is enforced. IIRC we have heard that a ranker that interferes with a regular would normally be executed. But executed by whom? Administrators? Or would it be by the army? If its administrators it means they enforce this rule at their own discretion. If its the army or other rankers then it means administrators don't actually have to involve themselves.... I don't think SIU has made up his mind regarding how this works since the series is somehow inconsistent on this issue. IMO it has to be at least partly enforced by administrators otherwise targeting the hell train wouldn't have been an issue for zahard's army at all.

 

[Demonspeed]

Baam should be safe unless the higher ups try to ignore rules like they did in the recent arc. I don't think they will be able to do that all the time.

From what we have seen, it looks like some Guardians aren't supporting Zahard. Well, they must listen to him, but they are not supporting him in their hearts. Karaka's fight with Yuri was allowed, there is also the YHS and Evankhell rescue. All Guardians are different of course, but Baam shouldn't be in danger most of the time. Even if most of them are pro Zahard, I don't believe they'll let his army do whatever they want on all the floors like that.

 

[Jammin]

Baam should be safe unless the higher ups try to ignore rules like they did in the recent arc. I don't think they will be able to do that all the time.

From what we have seen, it looks like some Guardians aren't supporting Zahard. Well, they must listen to him, but they are not supporting him in their hearts. Karaka's fight with Yuri was allowed, there is also the YHS and Evankhell rescue. All Guardians are different of course, but Baam shouldn't be in danger most of the time. Even if most of them are pro Zahard, I don't believe they'll let his army do whatever they want on all the floors like that.

I also kind of wonder how seriously Zahard really is about killing Baam. Like I think this was much more about the bracelet that it was Baam himself.

 

[kkck]

I also kind of wonder how seriously Zahard really is about killing Baam. Like I think this was much more about the bracelet that it was Baam himself.

My impression is that there likely are a few zahard emotions at play here, probably motivated by his encounter with his data self. At the hidden floor zahard straight up went for the kill. And it was almost sheer luck that saved bam given that eduan was able to actually direct the pill's power towards zahard's arm. And then the 44th floor arc started and... it reads like zahard suddenly decided to leave a whole bunch of things up to chance. He mobilized his army via the others but only one out of 4 squadrons was mobilized. Adori didn't lead the attack either. None of the orders he gave even mentioned bam for that matter. And if zahard was so concerned with what bam is or might otherwise become... why not lead the attack himself and deal with literally the only threat to him in the entirety of the tower? i think meeting his young self awoke an old part of him. so a combination of curiosity over what bam actually is, which he admitted he didn't grasp, and just a semblance of his old desire of adventure made him sort of what to give bam at least a chance of climbing the tower. not a big one since he did mobilize a part of his army but still at least a non zero chance.

 

[Jammin]

Yeah, that's kind of how I see it too.

If he truely wanted Baam dead. Adori would have led the attack and Baam would have died.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Regarding how discretionary this is administrator wise, I'd say the main issue here is that we don't know how exactly this protection is enforced. IIRC we have heard that a ranker that interferes with a regular would normally be executed. But executed by whom? Administrators?

On name hunt station when a guy broke the rules and attacked Kaiser, he was, in Kaiser's words "vanished immediately by the administrator" so I would assume administrator's carry out the punishment, they would also be in a position to prevent further rule breaking.

When Jinsung kicked Quoetro and Chang's asses, he said something like "I think the administrator will let me get away with this much" so again it seems the admin would be the one to issue the punishment.

 

[Brian Taboada]

... None of the orders he gave even mentioned bam for that matter. And if zahard was so concerned with what bam is or might otherwise become... why not lead the attack himself and deal with literally the only threat to him in the entirety of the tower? i think meeting his young self awoke an old part of him. so a combination of curiosity over what bam actually is, which he admitted he didn't grasp, and just a semblance of his old desire of adventure made him sort of what to give bam at least a chance of climbing the tower. not a big one since he did mobilize a part of his army but still at least a non zero chance.

Actually, Kallavan made it clear that Zahard instructed him personally to kill Baam. It was Kallavans foolishness and curiosity that allowed Baam to escape. However, I do agree that the motivation seems odd. Zahard must know the importance of Baam. (Phantomine maybe) Or why worry or even attempt to kill Baam at all? So why did Zahard not go to kill Baam unless he fears Baam "in some capacity"? That fear, I think, got the best of Zahard and forced a bad decision by not committing himself or Adori to kill Baam upon sight. I think this will be something he regrets. However, at this point in his life, Zahard may already regret everything in the past and is just playing the endgame.

 

[Jammin]

Actually, Kallavan made it clear that Zahard instructed him personally to kill Baam. It was Kallavans foolishness and curiosity that allowed Baam to escape. However, I do agree that the motivation seems odd. Zahard must know the importance of Baam. (Phantomine maybe) Or why worry or even attempt to kill Baam at all? So why did Zahard not go to kill Baam unless he fears Baam "in some capacity"? That fear, I think, got the best of Zahard and forced a bad decision by not committing himself or Adori to kill Baam upon sight. I think this will be something he regrets. However, at this point in his life, Zahard may already regret everything in the past and is just playing the endgame.

That was his interpretation of his orders though. Zahard is still not really moving. The only contact he actually had with Zahard, as far as we know, were the vague orders handed down in the shrine place.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 19, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 19, 2019 ---

It's also worth mentioning that most of the day to day aspects of the Zahard Empire aren't actually handled by Zahard. It's the 3 Lords that do that.
Molic One P. GR being the one currently in power.

The point being that even if Zahard's own army are after somebody that doesn't neccisarly mean the rest of the Zahard Empire would be.

 

[kkck]

Actually, Kallavan made it clear that Zahard instructed him personally to kill Baam. It was Kallavans foolishness and curiosity that allowed Baam to escape. However, I do agree that the motivation seems odd. Zahard must know the importance of Baam. (Phantomine maybe) Or why worry or even attempt to kill Baam at all? So why did Zahard not go to kill Baam unless he fears Baam "in some capacity"? That fear, I think, got the best of Zahard and forced a bad decision by not committing himself or Adori to kill Baam upon sight. I think this will be something he regrets. However, at this point in his life, Zahard may already regret everything in the past and is just playing the endgame.

We saw the orders though, none of them were that specific. Zahard at least did not share all that much. IIRC from the arc rankers began kinda grasping the situation when they saw bam and how strong he is. As in "OHHHHHH, he must be the reason why we were sent here". I don't think there is any reason for us to think current zahard in any capacity has any reason to fear bam. Even the tiny fraction of his power at the hidden floor was enough to handle bam, data zahard and data eduan without any effort whatsoever. Hence my take on this that zahard to some extent is giving bam a sporting chance so to speak. A sporting chance of 0.001% only but still. Otherwise zahard could have given 3 far more specific orders which specifically involved adori in which case even evankhel would not have been adequate support for bam. Or better yet, just go himself and show them the true wrath of a would be god.

 

[Brian Taboada]

We saw the orders though, none of them were that specific. Zahard at least did not share all that much. IIRC from the arc rankers began kinda grasping the situation when they saw bam and how strong he is. As in "OHHHHHH, he must be the reason why we were sent here". I don't think there is any reason for us to think current zahard in any capacity has any reason to fear bam. Even the tiny fraction of his power at the hidden floor was enough to handle bam, data zahard and data eduan without any effort whatsoever. Hence my take on this that zahard to some extent is giving bam a sporting chance so to speak. A sporting chance of 0.001% only but still. Otherwise zahard could have given 3 far more specific orders which specifically involved adori in which case even evankhel would not have been adequate support for bam. Or better yet, just go himself and show them the true wrath of a would be god.

Kallavan said to Baan "I can tell right away, you must be the irregular king Jahad told us to kill"
https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-333/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=414

However, the three orders do not mention an irregular. Thus, Kallavan received some sort of instruction about Baam. Those orders were for one group of people and I have to believe he provided enhanced instructions to others. How else can we explain what Kallavan said?

I dont think Zahard finds it worth giving Baam a 0.0001% sporting chance. I think he just messed up. Jahad knew who Baam was and is targeting him so there must have been something, prophesy, a message from God or other, that alerted Jahard to someone such as Baam. To think Baam would be so easily dismissed, knowing that Gustang and FUG were helping him, was a serious miscalculation. Unless there is another reason we are yet aware of.

 

[toil]

Given how easily Baam could be killed if Zahard was serious there's that inevitable catch-22 of "was an inadequate effort made just for story reasons or because Zahard has a bigger plan in motion?" Won't know until we know on that one, but since Zahard did try to kill him in the hidden floor I'm going with "Zahard's minions blew it b/c they didn't understand the threat and thus didn't rally enough firepower".

For the thread topic, I think the bigger problem with taking administrator tests is that at least in theory, there may be some pro-Zahard administrators, so if Baam asks to take their test and it's like "do you want to fight 20 duck-sized Zahard's or one duck with Zahard-powerlevel ducks...hah hah just kidding you don't get a choice, you're fighting 20 Zahard-equivalent Zahards"...that's the end of the story.

We know SIU won't pull anything that drastic, of course, but from a world-building standpoint I think the general idea of this thread is right: unless SIU establishes that all of the administrators are fair and/or Baam-sympathetic the risk of the administrator test being dangerously-unfair or just arbitrary—"all these rankers waiting around for you to leave the regular area are bothering me, go defeat them and I'll let you pass".

We'll see what SIU does, but I think it'd be poor from a world-building angle for Baam to keep climbing "normally" by staying in regular areas and taking admin tests unless SIU clarifies our expectations for those admin tests. If they should be safe, why, and how do we/Baam/etc. know that? If they aren't guaranteed to be safe, what then?

Jahad knew who Baam was and is targeting him so there must have been something, prophesy, a message from God or other, that alerted Jahard to someone such as Baam. To think Baam would be so easily dismissed, knowing that Gustang and FUG were helping him, was a serious miscalculation. Unless there is another reason we are yet aware of.

Unless I'm horribly-misremembering I think Levi also has a similar "you're that guy" reaction to Baam, right?

I think the safest in-story explanation is that Zahard gave some specific orders (how? when?) to some of his top underlings like Kallavan and they just...horribly misunderestimated Baam.

 

[kkck]

Kallavan said to Baan "I can tell right away, you must be the irregular king Jahad told us to kill"
https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-333/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=414

However, the three orders do not mention an irregular. Thus, Kallavan received some sort of instruction about Baam. Those orders were for one group of people and I have to believe he provided enhanced instructions to others. How else can we explain what Kallavan said?

I dont think Zahard finds it worth giving Baam a 0.0001% sporting chance. I think he just messed up. Jahad knew who Baam was and is targeting him so there must have been something, prophesy, a message from God or other, that alerted Jahard to someone such as Baam. To think Baam would be so easily dismissed, knowing that Gustang and FUG were helping him, was a serious miscalculation. Unless there is another reason we are yet aware of.

Yeah, that bit is weird. When did zahard say this? And wouldn't this imply that the army only had to kill bam if they went with the order to kill all hell train passengers? I guess the fug order would have eventually led them to bam but it is not necessarily the case. Frankly, this just looks like a plot hole to me as kallavan getting that order would override the other orders zahard gave.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Yeah, that bit is weird. When did zahard say this? And wouldn't this imply that the army only had to kill bam if they went with the order to kill all hell train passengers? I guess the fug order would have eventually led them to bam but it is not necessarily the case. Frankly, this just looks like a plot hole to me as kallavan getting that order would override the other orders zahard gave.

Didn't he say himself that he would kill everyone Baam ever came into contact with? So the official order would be for that sake, and telling Kalavan specifically would be to make sure Baam's death was his #1 focus.

 

[Brian Taboada]

Didn't he say himself that he would kill everyone Baam ever came into contact with? So the official order would be for that sake, and telling Kalavan specifically would be to make sure Baam's death was his #1 focus.

Yes... Not only that but it is interesting what Data Jahad said to Jahad.

Data Jahad said "When I first met my future self with the mirror, I was more flustered than happy... but in spite of how flawless you seemed, I sensed a small but massive feeling of anxiety in you. Fearing something in spite of having gotten so powerful"
https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-307/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=388

Jahard is scared of something and it is most likely his destiny of which he knows Baam is a part of.

 

[TheMoa]

However, the three orders do not mention an irregular. Thus, Kallavan received some sort of instruction about Baam. Those orders were for one group of people and I have to believe he provided enhanced instructions to others. How else can we explain what Kallavan said?

I dont think Zahard finds it worth giving Baam a 0.0001% sporting chance. I think he just messed up. Jahad knew who Baam was and is targeting him so there must have been something, prophesy, a message from God or other, that alerted Jahard to someone such as Baam. To think Baam would be so easily dismissed, knowing that Gustang and FUG were helping him, was a serious miscalculation. Unless there is another reason we are yet aware of.

I agree.

Concerning Baam, from Zahard point of view in chronological order:
1 Killed the baby Viole
2 Arlene prophesied her vengeance and Zahard's fall (ok, just a crazy woman saying things)
3 Arlene get out of the tower (ok, a little concerning, nobody gets out of the tower)
4 Fucking Enryu shows up at the tower, kills an Admin and call out Zahard as a fake king prophesying his fall
5 Phantaminium shows at the palace, wipes out everyone and have a little chit chat (involving Baam/the prophecy or not, mere speculation)
6 An irregular shows up at the floor of tests, Zahard's empire makes sure to kill him (in their minds)
7 Zahard sees the same kid he killed before, the same one that have some bad prophecies going on. Also, this kid just got the bracelet that's super important (we only don't know for what yet)

I think there's plenty to believe that Zahard is kind of scared of Baam's existence and the goal of the whole ordeal was to kill baam.

Theoretically Zahard should have no reason to fear baam as a fraction of his power can trash him (as someone brought up on the thread), but his fear of baam makes sense when we see it with the same logic of Yu Han Sung speech to Evankell (he can never be immortal, so he doesn't fears death. Immortal rankers lives in fear of losing said immortality). Zahard is scared witless of the probability of losing his kingdom, why gamble and take chances on prophecies.


Now back on topic

For the thread topic, I think the bigger problem with taking administrator tests is that at least in theory, there may be some pro-Zahard administrators, so if Baam asks to take their test and it's like "do you want to fight 20 duck-sized Zahard's or one duck with Zahard-powerlevel ducks...hah hah just kidding you don't get a choice, you're fighting 20 Zahard-equivalent Zahards"...that's the end of the story.

We know SIU won't pull anything that drastic, of course, but from a world-building standpoint I think the general idea of this thread is right: unless SIU establishes that all of the administrators are fair and/or Baam-sympathetic the risk of the administrator test being dangerously-unfair or just arbitrary—"all these rankers waiting around for you to leave the regular area are bothering me, go defeat them and I'll let you pass".

I Agree. Every administrator could be thinking in doing what's the best for the tower, but what's best of the tower may be up for discussion between the admins.
We do know that the admins of the first 2 floors are up for some shady business, making us think that they are anti Zahard. But when the 2nd floor admin sent Evankhell and Yu Han Sung to the last station... he covered his tracks, sending them to an intermediate point. Why? I think there's more to do with the last station admin being pro Zahard than to avoid showing "rebelion" to Zahard. We do know that rankers hunting down regulars are against the tower rules, yet it was said that Zarhard's army had approval from the ruler (did the admin knew? the ruler interfered only with Evankhell (half assed) and the Admin didn't show up.... what makes me thing of there being pro Zahard admins that could complicate Baam's life.

That being said, if I'm baam I'm going the irregular way... climb it via Admins and deal with whatever they trow. At this point in the journey Baam is stronger than Zahard.. why not?