One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

No Commander of Whitebeard dealt any significant damage against an admiral. Marco and Jozu got one hit on Kizaru and Aokiji. No one hurt Akainu, who passed through all of the remaining Commanders and Crocodile with ease. Admirals are something else, at least the preskip ones. Fujitora was playing a gamble on Dressrosa and was holding back the entire time, so it's hard to tell.

The Gap between Admirals/Yonkos and Commanders is far to wide for them to be able to compete with true top tiers

 

[Admiral Teach]

The Admirals are indeed superpowers in their own right. They have to be, given the lackluster performance of most every other Marine entity we know of. Until CP 0 (Whom I always suspected existed due to CP9 already supposedly being secret, and the Japanese fondness for "0". So...) we got almost nothing but the CP9 as competent Marine warriors. Even the Vice Admirals have not shown much to brag about. Garp seems the only competent one among them, and maybe potentially possibly but not likely the beetle/spider dude with the samurai helm and one of the cool masked people. Because the masks are cool. Otherwise... yeah. The Admirals had better be Yonkou tier or close. Because they seem to carry the true weight of the Marine combat power on their shoulders. Without them, it is literally all quantity and no quality, so it seems.

My hope is we get a power up to the Marines in the form of a certain pink-haired brat-turned-badass and his friend with the awesome shades. Garp sure knows how to train them right. I wouldn't be surprised if he and his comrades are the only truly great Marines around. We don't see Sengoku training people. Nope. Or Akainu for that matter.

But I'm just rambling now. No clue how many deadly foes will turn up.

And of course I, the great Black Beard, will be the final boss. Because I'm the main character! That Mugiwara will fall, I promise. Just wait. The instant he gets those other Poneglyphs, I will swoop in and take them from his crew without so much as getting my fingernails dirty. Though if it comes to a fight, I don't expect his crew to win. I'll liberate e'm all if I have to. Zeeeehahahahaha!

 

[M3J]

No Commander of Whitebeard dealt any significant damage against an admiral. Marco and Jozu got one hit on Kizaru and Aokiji. No one hurt Akainu, who passed through all of the remaining Commanders and Crocodile with ease. Admirals are something else, at least the preskip ones. Fujitora was playing a gamble on Dressrosa and was holding back the entire time, so it's hard to tell.

No admiral was able to hurt a Whitebeard commander either until they were distracted or cuffed. Marco was on par with Kizaru but he got distracted when Whitebeard showed his age and got cuffed, Jozu was doing well too until Whitebeard distracted him. Hell, Jozu even blocked a sword strike from Mihawk that was able to cut a whole mountain or ice mountain in half, and Vista didn't have a loss against Mihawk.

 

[nik87]

It's true, commanders can battle Admirals but they would lose sooner or later, imo.
I think the pairing of top commanders like Marco+Katakuri could take out any admiral with high difficulty.

 

[Admiral Teach]

I would argue that Jozu was doomed against Aoikiji, though. It seemed that Kuzan was in his trademark chill state when he got him. I don't remember there being a single hint of a technique Jozu could do to block that. I would even argue armament Haki would not work well. It probably would help, but Jozu was indeed basically one-shotted by Aoikiji, and I do not believe any form of distraction on that battlefield, at least, would have altered that outcome.

However, that is not because I consider Jozu weaker, so I am not disagreeing with you, M3J. My reasoning is that this is a specific case of a type disadvantage. No matter how hard, a diamond can still be frozen, because that is a state it cannot affect or resist. This is one reason why Aoikiji is probably one of the scariest close-combat specialists. He can totally halt and kill targets and even slow them down from low temperature. Unless they can combust or produce significant and continuous heat without effort like magma and fire and heat, there is no direct or easy counter to Iiiice Time.

Now, to bolster your point, there is the case of Akainu. Jozu is diamond, and diamonds are tempered at not only extreme temperatures, but pressure as well. I would personally believe that Jozu could even be a natural counter to the magu magu no mi. Notice that Akainu stays well away from Jozu. So the Commander could be a real threat to at least Akainu, and quite possibly be worse to Kizaru, given that a diamond could easily act as a prism and scatter Kizaru to oblivion, but also because even if he cannot directly harm Akainu through fruit nature exploitation, he probably is totally resistant to magma punches. I would be amazed if a fire or magma punch would hurt a diamond fruit user. It would be like Luffy taking an normal fist. Knuckles won't work. And if Jozu has CoA, then, well... it would take a long time for him to go down.

So yeah, the Yonkou Commanders, at least from the WBP are no joke. But I do honestly believe that they just weren't as cool as BMP's. Or honestly as powerful in sheer war potential. There's no telling about Marco's power level, since he was cuffed through most of the fight and did not get to go wild until the end, when there was no longer a point.

There's also this fact to consider that I only now thought of: it was an actual battle, a war. Cracker, for instance, would be glorious on the battlefield. I would want his power on my side before Marco's or Vista. Because an endless legion of warriors with incredible Armament and natural defensive power is something to fear. Whereas, Jozu's power was just not designed for battlefields where an enemy force has multiple options of dealing with someone of his type. In a one-on-one, I firmly believe he actually had a fruit suited to combat or at least survive solo against 2 out of 3 Admirals.

But in a war, that 1vs.1 advantage meant 0. The vulnerable Admirals did not bother with personal pride and did their duty where they could serve best, and the one admiral who is an instant win button against Jozu confronted and pwned him.

It makes me wish we had the BMP as a whole in Wano, and not just Smoothie. Because it would be interesting to see just how their Commanders fair in an actual battlefield. Cracker should be top tier. Katakuri though? Smoothie? I don't know.

So yeah, power level wise, the Commanders are up there. They can surely fight against Admirals and hope to at least not have to flee for their lives immediately or die, like the Supernova did at Soambody, but power level is just raw strength calculation. In terms of true overall "power" there is strategy and combat type involved as well. And that's where I think the WBP got nerfed. They were just not suited for a war of that scale.

Makes me wonder why Marco didn't just swoop down carrying Vista on his back and try to snatch Ace while Whitebeard sank Marinford. Because goodness knows he should have been able to do that much. . . but then that would be too easy and no fun for the readers.

 

[M3J]

How long was Jozu fighting Aokiji for? If for a short while, then I agree with you, but if for a long while, then it is weird that Aokiji wasn't able to freeze Jozu until he was distracted.

I dunno if a Yonkou commander is guaranteed to lose to an admiral, but given what Aokiji and Akainu's rumored fight, it might be true. Or, it might take a commander with excellent haki or great devil fruit to stand a chance, like Marco.

 

[King Moe]

Sanji is a tough one, he’s definitely improved I guess since Punk Hazard. He lost to Vergo, who was stronger than Smoker but weaker than Law. Sanji hasn’t been shown using CoA, which he probably has though. I don’t think Sanji was strong enough to beat Daifuku or Oven. Maybe with his raid suit now he can.

Zolo well he can defeat Pika who I think was stronger than Vergo or equal just because he was big. So therefore Zolo > Vergo > Smoker. Zolo can probably defeat Hawkins or at least tie in a match so I think Zolo = Hawkins = Law. They’re in the same category of course Luffy can beat them all. I wish we could see more of Zolo.

What lost? Sanji never lost to Vergo. It ended in Vergo leaving instead and Sanji still walking back fine as ever. Don't think you can call it defeat if it ended with no one being knockout or kill. Though I do agree he is stronger than Smoker, but in defense of Smoker, he was working with Law to get his heart back, so wasn't fighting as he usually do. He was distracting him to get Law's heart, so don't want to say Smoker is a 'weakling', just was use to help Law more than be more serious in a fight.

He has it. It's been stated in the series and shown more visible in anime recently in latest episode. The reason we never seen it more until now is because he always wear black suit and shoes, that it's hard to color in the manga on hardening to show if he already wearing black. Been stated by Luffy and Judge who said he has it already. Meaning he has more power to show and can defeated Vergo, Daifuku, and Oven. Idk where you get the idea he is that 'weak' cause he isn't the RS also doesn't do nothing to raise the power he already has on him too.

Zo'L'o (Lol. Didn't expect someone to still call him that. Gotta love 4Kids on the name XD) did defeated Pica, but no way it means he could take out Vergo as Vergo was more physical fighter, Pica was not even that he ran from him many times and Zolo/Zoro have to force him to face him head-on, heavily hinting, he was never a good fighter to face physically or without his DF, so don't think you can compare them and Doflamingo stated that Vergo is his left-handed man/right-hand man (Forgot which one) already, so don't think he ever said that about Pica despite being his top commanders.

As for Hawkins, maybe he could have, but since he already got blood on him when Hawkins wasn't even using his serious of movies, it be probably a high-extreme fight for Zolo/Zoro as 'tricky' opponents never been his good fight for him as he really need to think things through to get around his DF power. Zolo/Zoro isn't in same lvl with Luffy as he has never shown to reach same opponents as tough as Luffy's opponents that he beat, so that's a big stretch. Also with Law too as maybe in swordsmanship he fare with Law, but Law's DF is too powerful as well his Haki to cut through Vergo's Armament Haki, so I think Zolo/Zoro is below him still and I wouldn't be him above Law or equal to him until we see Zoro showcased something more to reach him there, which he haven't yet with a serious opponent.

I do see him later facing Orochi or King (But more on Orochi) as his final opponent more, so perhaps we see him struggle more in Wano arc as from what we seen from clash with Hawkins, he won't have a 'easy fights' with more top-tier opponents as time goes on in the arc.

 

[Admiral Teach]

That's the thing though. It is a war zone. Everyone has to get distracted at some point (besides Katakuri, but maybe his power would hurt him even worse than Coby). Aoikiji could be justified for waiting on a distraction to swoop down. That's why I say there is a type disadvantage going on. Cracker would not necessarily encounter the same problem due to how his fruit works. He can hide amidst his clones and just run amok, or hide somewhere very safe and well-defended and endless pump out biscuit warriors.

And from what I recall, I don't think it was anything more than Aoikiji appearing, tapping Jozu and freezing him solid, and then just moving on. Heck, Jozu lost his arm almost at once due to the fragility of it and its weight after getting frozen and all. So again, type difference. I would love to hear from Oda what would happen if Jozu body-slammed Kizaru. Would Kizaru pass into the prism and scatter into a rainbow corpse? (That sounded so trippy, and I've never even been high)

 

[M3J]

I didn't say they're on par with admirals because it took a distraction to take them down, just that they were fighting on par so far until they got distracted. Marco was anyway.

Aokiji probably wouldn't die from that tbh

 

[Fox666]

If Marines were pirates, their bounties would be...

Captain: 10,000,000

Morgan and Nezumi were no match for the likes of Luffy or Zoro in East Blue. During the Ennies Lobby incident, the Strawhats were ambushed by a few Captains with Devil Fruit powers.

Commodore: 25,000,000

While Pudding Pudding was confident he could take on a pirate worth 20,000,000, his ship was sunk by the Arlong Pirates, who took advantage of the whirlpools around their base.

Rear Admiral: 50,000,000

Kadar was taken down in one hit by Fisher Tiger, whose bounty was over 200,000,000.

Vice-Admiral: 100,000,000

This rank is right below that of the Admiral. All Vice-Admiral learned how to use Haki in combat. During the Ennies Lobby incident, the five Vice-Admirals summoned to Ennies Lobby praised Rob Lucci, and choose not to interfere in his battle with Luffy, who earned a bounty 300,000,000 for the incident. During the war in Marineford, several Vice-Admirals were easily defeated by the Whitebeard Pirates. In the Corrida Colosseum tournmanet, Maynard was beaten by one of the Super Rookie pirates, Bartolomeo.

Despite Garp being a Vice-Admiral, he refused being promoted to Admiral several times. Unfortunately, it seems there was nobody else was worth a promotion, and the new Admirals were recruited through a military draft.

Admiral: 2,000,000,000

The Admirals are the World Government's "Greatest Strength", putting them above even the Shichibukai. Their strength have been compared to that of the Yonko in several occasions. During the war in Marineford, Akainu fatally injured the Yonko Whitebeard in an intense combat.

Note that some Marines of the same rank can be far stronger than others, especially those who have trouble with authority. When he was introduced, Smoker would have no trouble defeating a 50,000,000 pirate.

 

[albertwv]

@everyone, forget about the EOS villains or anyone we have not seen action from (Gorosei, Im, Dragon, etc). I think Yonkous are stronger than Admirals to include Akainu & Garp. I think Garp is stronger than Akainu, just as Sengoku stopped Garp from killing Akainu after the admiral had killed Ace. People won’t like it but I’m sure Garp is stronger or at least tie.

Sanji lost to Vergo, he even implied that it wouldn’t have been good for him if they had kept fighting, he broke some leg bones. But now am sure Sanji can defeat him. Plus it has not been shown in the manga (fuck the anime) that Sanji has used CoA. It has been implied but not shown. So relax with that. By the way I don’t think Sanji could’ve defeated Daifuku or Oven, Sanji is probably weaker than Bege or the same and maybe they would lose but with a lot of damage to Oven or Daifuku but yeah. Regarding Vergo, Zolo could’ve defeated Vergo as he defeated Pika Easily. Smoker like it or not lost to Vergo, he could’ve defeated Vergo and then gotten Law’s heart but no he didn’t which means he resigned himself to lose and decided to help Law.
Yonkous > Admirals =/> Yonko Commanders. Dudes, the WG fears one Yonko Army but if two Yonkous Army join then they would definitely lose. Plus look at Shanks, Akainu did not even think twice about fighting Shanks.
Btw, who’s stronger Doffy or Cracker?

 

[nik87]

People won’t like it but I’m sure Garp is stronger or at least tie.

I think as well that Garp is above Admirals/fleet Admiral. As long as the old age plot element doesnt show any limit for Garp I think he is strongest among Marines, maybe inferior to Kong.

CoA. It has been implied but not shown.

I think when he blocked Judge's spear it's confirmation that he used CoA in that moment but since it's normal Armament and not Hardening version there is no possibility to see it visually because only Hardening is blackened out.

Dudes, the WG fears one Yonko Army but if two Yonkous Army join then they would definitely lose.

Only Marines took WB and allied forces which arguably was the most powerful pirate alliance and they clearly won. There were cheap tricks and all but still I think Marines are a greater force than a force of one Yonko. Two Yonkos would most likely crush Marines, if more Yonkos joined then I assume Marines would get reinforcements from WG.

who’s stronger Doffy or Cracker?

They should be close, I am leaning towards Cracker.

 

[Fox666]

Regarding Vergo, Zolo could’ve defeated Vergo as he defeated Pika Easily.

I was under the impression that Vergo was special even among Doflamingo executives.

Yonkous > Admirals =/> Yonko Commanders. Dudes, the WG fears one Yonko Army but if two Yonkous Army join then they would definitely lose.

It was implied a few times that the Admirals are around the Yonko level. Akainu wouldn't disobey Sengoku orders to cease fire, besides he was already injured from fighting White Beard.

Btw, who’s stronger Doffy or Cracker?

Doflamingo, I think. Luffy could only fight Doflamingo after Law sliced his internal organs, and even then Doflamingo could take on a few hits from Gear 4, while it would smash Cracker's biscuit soldiers.

 

[King Moe]

Sanji lost to Vergo, he even implied that it wouldn’t have been good for him if they had kept fighting, he broke some leg bones. But now am sure Sanji can defeat him. Plus it has not been shown in the manga (fuck the anime) that Sanji has used CoA. It has been implied but not shown. So relax with that. By the way I don’t think Sanji could’ve defeated Daifuku or Oven, Sanji is probably weaker than Bege or the same and maybe they would lose but with a lot of damage to Oven or Daifuku but yeah. Regarding Vergo, Zolo could’ve defeated Vergo as he defeated Pika Easily. Smoker like it or not lost to Vergo, he could’ve defeated Vergo and then gotten Law’s heart but no he didn’t which means he resigned himself to lose and decided to help Law.

No he didn't as again Vergo was the one who left? Did Sanji run away? Did he gave up? He kept fighting even with that 'fractured' leg in the end. If we take words that characters might not be able to defeat them, then Luffy wouldn't have won with Katakuri as he was truly in there, but still won in the end. Also again Idk why everyone use this excuse as a way to determine it was too much for Sanji when it wasn't as he ran with the same leg and didn't even need medical treatment for it.

You also seem to forget bones getting damages means nothing in One Piece as looks at Usopp and Chopper vs Mr. 4 and Ms. Groundhog Day as he took a 4 ton bat to his skull with a clear skull fracture, yet they still won the fight in the end. Harjuan suffered broken bones in his last attack to Machivse, but still push him back and defeated him in the end. Your reason for using this isn't working much on his 'Bones are broken! He would lose!' when these characters won in the end. Don't think it would made the different. Sanji would have best him then since it was confirmed then he does have Haki to harden body both invisible and visible kind that been confirmed by Luffy.

It doesn't need to be shown all the time to prove someone has it if they can also get statement of others and actions shows they do. Reason why Sanji was having trouble at first is because he wasn't from Law switching his body with Nami would irresponsibility use it and cause it to feel in that state. It was even stated on Usopp how he was lacking due to Nami slapping him and he went down. It wasn't because that was all Sanji was it. Though through the fight if it last longer, it would have gone his way as he recovers from it.

He pretty much could have as he easily flung Oven with a unnamed kick with speed and also hold his own with Daifuku especially second time in his Genie's Giant Verison and the anime (Don't fuck the anime cause Oda stated he relies on it on canon filler, so I wouldn't go there) visible shows more on him having Armament Haki due to not wearing his regular black suit and shoes. Also are you kidding me? Dude, stop your trying too hard on Sanji's case. There is clear fighting difference between Bege and Sanji and Sanij would drop him instantly as Bege is not even a physical fighter like him and would lose pretty soon. Nothing shows he can handle Sanji in the slightest. Bege while respecting him as a Supernova, Idk he would last long on Oven and Daifuku, but Sanji can overcome them easily.

Pika isn't at lvl of Vergo. Why you think they are same lvl? Pica doesn't fight close up, but Vergo does. It's clear he was the most physical fighter of the Commanders and Doffy said he was his left-handed man/right-handed man. Zoro won't do the same as to Vergo at all. your overhyping him a bit too much just because both can fully encased their bodies in Haki, but it's clear end of the day, Vergo has more keen to the task. Also yeah, Smoke did lose, but in more trying to get Law's heart, not because he was 100% going in his own fighting style. We can't say for sure in the long run if Law wasn't there, what he could do to turn things around. Just because he decided to help someone to take the fall for, doesn't mean if he fought originally, he would lose the same. You can't put that on someone when trying to help someone as there is a different on fighting for real and fighting in another way. Just explaining to you as you seem to have it judge the wrong style in your post.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

I never understood why people think Pika< Vergo. What did Vergo do? Full body haki? Pika did it too. Had a bamboostaff? Pika had a sword. Imba Devilfruit? Pika had one.

 

[M3J]

tbh we only think Vergo was underwhelming because he fell prey to Law's devil fruit abilities and not swordsman abilities.

 

[Takuan]

I think this is due to the fact that:

1) Pica got owned by Zoro so he appeared weak;
2) Vergo... Let's not say he beat Sanji otehrwise i'll get some people's wrath, let's say he seemed as strong as Sanji.

Zoro and Sanji are often put in comparison, competition even, so when Vergo is impressive against one whereas Pica gets fodderized by the other, it seems that Pica is just worse than Vergo. Plus, Vergo seemingly had a special place even in top executives, he is seen as Doffy's right hand basically, so in that regard he should be stronger than the rest of the executives.

Personally i think Vergo is the superior fighter since i think Pica's DF is trash. Extremely situational since if he doesn't fight in a huge stone city, he can't really do much. Put him in the desert like in Alabasta, and his DF is useless.
But in Dressrosa i think he could use the maximum of his DF. So in my eyes, Dressrosa Pica > Vergo. Though i'd put my money on Vergo in any other situation.

 

[Fox666]

There are a few hints that Vergo was on a different level from the other executives. He was said to be Doflamingo's most trustworthy subordinate or so. While the rest of the executives suffered shameful defeats in Dressrosa, Vergo fought very well against Sanji, Smoker and Law. Even if you consider Law was in disadvantage due to his heart, Vergo did a lot of damage to Law. Besides Doflamingo was confident that Vergo could take on another Shichibukai.

 

[M3J]

I don't know if Doflamingo was confident about Vergo taking on a shichibukai as he was about Vergo taking on someone that he easily beat and traumatized before when his victim was a kid. Vergo often brought up the past to Law when he was trying to intimidate him. Probably didn't expect Law to have Ope Ope No Mi or be proficient with it either, I guess?

 

[albertwv]

The reason I think Vergo is the same or weaker than Pika is because of Pikas DF’s destruction is really OP. But I think without the DF Pika would lose. And whether people like it or not, Luffy > Zolo > Sanji. They may seem close but nope Zolo is higher than Sanji. I’m not a Zolo or Sanji fan but i think Zolo is stronger than Sanji. I don’t see Dressrosa Sanji beating Pika or Vergo or even Smoker.