Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
Oh i stayed in the background, but this sentence was just too hilarious to not point out. Any what if scenarios also do not count, because... it didnt happened that way. In this Fight, Sanji got in two freeshots... didnt do damage( let me guess it wasnt a named attack)... then they fought briefly, where Vergo effortlessly blocked and fractured him. Without. Using. Visible. Haki.
But well. I stay in the lurkerbase a little bit longer.
Oh i stayed in the background, but this sentence was just too hilarious to not point out. Any what if scenarios also do not count, because... it didnt happened that way. In this Fight, Sanji got in two freeshots... didnt do damage( let me guess it wasnt a named attack)... then they fought briefly, where Vergo effortlessly blocked and fractured him. Without. Using. Visible. Haki.
But well. I stay in the lurkerbase a little bit longer.
Sounds like you don't accept context and only pictures. Why you think majority said that about the fight? Can link it to websites if you want to debate more about it? Can help you lurk around more XD.
Wow! Your definition of heavy damage is messed up.
So you would also call Luffy's first successful hit on Katakuri (a kick to the face with slight blood) heavy damage
OR
Luffy's gear 3rd hit on Kaido's head
OR
Fujitora's gravity slash on Luffy
OR
Luffy's gear 3rd hit on Fujitora
OR
PageOne's strike at Sanji
OR
Sanji's initial kick on Vergo
Yet you'd be the first to argue Vergo's kick exchange with Sanji (that fractured his leg) was not a heavy damage.
Don't overhype things like that especially you can't compare Pica to Doflamingo as same lvl. Pica is weaker to Doflamingo by far especially in physical fight. Doflamingo was all around monster in many stats and departments. Your confusing the power lvls as you think all their opponents are equal with other characters when they arena and not equal with others when they are.
Now who is misunderstanding people's write-ups again?
@Nik and I agreed Pica was very destructive in a similar fashion, in fact more than Doflamingo during the Dressrosa arc. Any seasoned One Piece reader will understand that this is actually due to Pica's DF.
No one mentioned that Pica is stronger than Doffy, we aren't reading or watching One Piece with our butts.
And there you go misunderstanding destructiveness for strength.
Oh i stayed in the background, but this sentence was just too hilarious to not point out. Any what if scenarios also do not count, because... it didnt happened that way. In this Fight, Sanji got in two freeshots... didnt do damage( let me guess it wasnt a named attack)... then they fought briefly, where Vergo effortlessly blocked and fractured him. Without. Using. Visible. Haki.
But well. I stay in the lurkerbase a little bit longer.
Despite Sanji getting a fracture and being in pain, he still moved as if he was never in a fight. And this was after his body took so much battering that a Nami punch made Sanji wonder why his body went down. There's no point in bringing up this fight when Sanji himself was moving and kicking like new.
It's funny you are the only one that sees Sanji that way.
Wow! Your definition of heavy damage is messed up.
So you would also call Luffy's first successful hit on Katakuri (a kick to the face with slight blood) heavy damage
OR
Luffy's gear 3rd hit on Kaido's head
OR
Fujitora's gravity slash on Luffy
OR
Luffy's gear 3rd hit on Fujitora
OR
PageOne's strike at Sanji
OR
Sanji's initial kick on Vergo
Yet you'd be the first to argue Vergo's kick exchange with Sanji (that fractured his leg) was not a heavy damage.
You are just stat-shopping at this point.
So Sanji didn't get trashed by Doflamingo?
Now who is misunderstanding people's write-ups again?
@Nik and I agreed Pica was very destructive in a similar fashion, in fact more than Doflamingo during the Dressrosa arc. Any seasoned One Piece reader will understand that this is actually due to Pica's DF.
No one mentioned that Pica is stronger than Doffy, we aren't reading or watching One Piece with our butts.
And there you go misunderstanding destructiveness for strength.
Not really, if you look around in the thread more, Sanji's discussion, other websites, etc. but whatever help you sleep tonight man .
Look at manga when he got hurt as he was send flying and both bleeding from his body. He was also feeling a pain in the neck as shown in the panel. Are you really doubting this? Your not providing more backing to your case. Who said Vergo didn't hurt Sanji? He did, but the excuse to say he would lose due to a broken leg is a flawed logic in OP Universe you were using. I already counter your points with Usopp and Harjudan as examples of 'broken bones dilemma' you keep trying to repeat on. No one is gonna by it at this point no matter you keep bringing it up.
Yeah, never said Sanji could beat Doflamingo. I mention on here that Sanji's only true lost was to Doflamingo which I accept. What shame in that? He defeated Law the same as well and Zoro couldn't cut his Birdcage. Doflamingo was tough, so no shame in losing to him.
Dude, no he wasn't. Your telling me that Pica's Stone Body was doing more damage than Doflamingo freaking BIRDCAGE (Emphasizing, not yelling). The arc on latter half was hyping that up and use as a crucial plot point of being a time limit. Who I was speaking to was alluding to that as he compare Zoro's attack G4 lvl when that's ridiculous on many lvls. You gotta learn to understand a situation and go back to read context if you honestly think Pica was more dangerous than Doflamingo. Doens't make a lick of sense at all. If Pica can destroyed the Birdcage, we can talk, but it never happened and who did more damage was obviously Doflamingo in the end as look what Birdcage did after he was defeated. The landscape was more messed up than what Pica ever done prior.
Despite Sanji getting a fracture and being in pain, he still moved as if he was never in a fight. And this was after his body took so much battering that a Nami punch made Sanji wonder why his body went down. There's no point in bringing up this fight when Sanji himself was moving and kicking like new.
Thank you M3J for being one of those who read the panel after panel instead of ignoring the context. I been telling them this the same way, but they still see it like a 'crutch' on Sanji despite he was clearly handicap from early from Law switching his body. It's like saying Law is 'very weak' to Vergo despite he use Law's heart to hurt him and prevent him moving certain points in the fight. Neither were 100% and were handicapped, both can defeat Vergo being fresher and without restraints.
Not really, if you look around in the thread more, Sanji's discussion, other websites, etc. but whatever help you sleep tonight man .
Look at manga when he got hurt as he was send flying and both bleeding from his body. He was also feeling a pain in the neck as shown in the panel. Are you really doubting this? Your not providing more backing to your case. Who said Vergo didn't hurt Sanji? He did, but the excuse to say he would lose due to a broken leg is a flawed logic in OP Universe you were using. I already counter your points with Usopp and Harjudan as examples of 'broken bones dilemma' you keep trying to repeat on. No one is gonna by it at this point no matter you keep bringing it up.
Yeah, never said Sanji could beat Doflamingo. I mention on here that Sanji's only true lost was to Doflamingo which I accept. What shame in that? He defeated Law the same as well and Zoro couldn't cut his Birdcage. Doflamingo was tough, so no shame in losing to him.
Dude, no he wasn't. Your telling me that Pica's Stone Body was doing more damage than Doflamingo freaking BIRDCAGE (Emphasizing, not yelling). The arc on latter half was hyping that up and use as a crucial plot point of being a time limit. Who I was speaking to was alluding to that as he compare Zoro's attack G4 lvl when that's ridiculous on many lvls. You gotta learn to understand a situation and go back to read context if you honestly think Pica was more dangerous than Doflamingo. Doens't make a lick of sense at all. If Pica can destroyed the Birdcage, we can talk, but it never happened and who did more damage was obviously Doflamingo in the end as look what Birdcage did after he was defeated. The landscape was more messed up than what Pica ever done prior.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Thank you M3J for being one of those who read the panel after panel instead of ignoring the context. I been telling them this the same way, but they still see it like a 'crutch' on Sanji despite he was clearly handicap from early from Law switching his body. It's like saying Law is 'very weak' to Vergo despite he use Law's heart to hurt him and prevent him moving certain points in the fight. Neither were 100% and were handicapped, both can defeat Vergo being fresher and without restraints.
So because we aren't Sanji fanboys we are pretty much blind is what you are implying eh...
Well I'd rather be blind than force myself to give a character a cheer he's not yet deserved.
I'll end this with a little fact:
Sanji is the most underperforming Strawhat in the New World combat wise like it or hate it.
That's why truly loyal Sanji fans are praying he gets some sunshine this arc. They know he's been disappointing and they accept it. It's not their fault, it's Oda's.
And recently their prayers are beginning to show signs of acceptance. Evidence for that is the Raid Suit. All he's got to do now is prove his worth once the opportunity arises.
So because we aren't Sanji fanboys we are pretty much blind is what you are implying eh...
Well I'd rather be blind than force myself to give a character a cheer he's not yet deserved.
I'll end this with a little fact:
Sanji is the most underperforming Strawhat in the New World combat wise like it or hate it.
That's why truly loyal Sanji fans are praying he gets some sunshine this arc. They know he's been disappointing and they accept it. It's not their fault, it's Oda's.
And recently their prayers are beginning to show signs of acceptance. Evidence for that is the Raid Suit. All he's got to do now is prove his worth once the opportunity arises.
Again, where I said that if your not Sanji fans, you are blind? Your putting words in someone's mouth that aren't true. I am not even deep Sanji's fan. I defend characters when things go too far about them. Are you saying we can't defend or debate with someone on their opinion they put out? Sanji will get his dues the ones he deserve and ones he doesn't, but your logic is so messed up, you forgot how to do things fairly how you used to do, just saying.
Actually no, he been fighting more threats than many of the others. His issue is his fights don't have more full fight, but after defeating PO, he boost his performance more in NW. The one who we haven't see much spotlight especially in fights more are Usopp, Robin, Chopper, Nami, and Brook to have solid fights more.
Sanji fans aren't imaging it to happen, it being shown right now. He just fought an higher-up and defeat him quickly. Oda while I would like more fights for Sanji from him, how he worked his character lately isn't end of the world and been pretty good actually. Just you on the minority side about from what I seen. Well he is showing what he can do without and with RS so far, but your still denying it is the issues. Certain fans like you are taking it to another too far on the issue than how it is. If you can accept your mistakes more, we can understand each other better and I can agree with your points more. Just saying to you, no hate or anything.
I don’t see PH Sanji defeating Smoker, Smoker who lost to Vergo and Law. Vergo who is physically stronger than Pika. Pika is kinda undefeatable only because of his OP DF in a stone environment. Until I see Sanji use CoA in the manga then well I accept it but during PH I doubt Sanji could defeat Smoker. Alas, Whole Cake Island Sanji lost in a clash against Daifuku, Daifuku sent him flying away the first time. Sanji landed a nice kick on Oven but Iven stood up right away with little to no damage. I don’t see Sanji beating Daifuku, maybe Oven but high diff. Therefore I put Daifuku over Oven first. Another thing I think Sanji and Bege are equally powerful, leaning a bit on Bege because of his castle form. Next, people please stop assuming that Sanji defeated Page One until it has been proven. They seemed to be on par. Maybe Sanji ran away or Page One left, whatever maybe Sanji did win but until we have confirmation that Sanji won, dont get ahead of yourself. Look Ilike Sanji I’m no hater neither of Zolo, but I’m not being biased I just say it how I see it.
I don’t see PH Sanji defeating Smoker, Smoker who lost to Vergo and Law. Vergo who is physically stronger than Pika. Pika is kinda undefeatable only because of his OP DF in a stone environment. Until I see Sanji use CoA in the manga then well I accept it but during PH I doubt Sanji could defeat Smoker. Alas, Whole Cake Island Sanji lost in a clash against Daifuku, Daifuku sent him flying away the first time. Sanji landed a nice kick on Oven but Iven stood up right away with little to no damage. I don’t see Sanji beating Daifuku, maybe Oven but high diff. Therefore I put Daifuku over Oven first. Another thing I think Sanji and Bege are equally powerful, leaning a bit on Bege because of his castle form. Next, people please stop assuming that Sanji defeated Page One until it has been proven. They seemed to be on par. Maybe Sanji ran away or Page One left, whatever maybe Sanji did win but until we have confirmation that Sanji won, dont get ahead of yourself. Look Ilike Sanji I’m no hater neither of Zolo, but I’m not being biased I just say it how I see it.
Sanji can take on Smoker as he shown more good showing despite his handicap than Smoker with his. I see it challenging fight, but still see the outcome still Sanji's more. He can use COA, it been canon for awhile and the anime showcase it even more. Both anime and manga state it already and where did Daifuku beat Sanji? He never did and Sanji wasn't KO from being sent back as he still clash back. He even withstood his Genie the second time with Armament Haki in it's giant form where it easily cut up ships moments chapters ago while chasing Carrot. Where you getting your facts? There is no logic to them at all. If he was to face them again, it be mid-diff/mid-diff+, hardly high diffed especially on Oven side as he was sent away easily with a kick without him trying.
I wouldn't be so sure. Pica can be take down if you pinpoint his location and knowing Vergo, he would have done that and get to him right quick. Thus he is stronger than him and can break down stuff like stones with ease.
Also how Bege is equal? Cause of the Castle? Sanji have broken down buildings and stones before pre-timeskip. Having an Castle made of himself won't change the damage he will get especially if Sanji uses Armament Haki in hurting him. Also he is lacking in attack power. What does Bege have? Cannon and bullets? Not gonna make different to Sanji especially his COO, so your really undermining the character than putting facts on why situation is.
No context and sense will have Page One alive and active. Idk why you try to denied it. Seem like you don't want anyone to give praises or accept Sanji did something good on defeating him. Sanji defeated him like it or not. No reason he would leave him behind if it would mess up the plans and if he did, he would have tell the others in latest chapter Page One is active. Nothing hints he could be around as Sanji isn't one to break promises at all. If your serious, then do more research than point out that Sanji is 'lacking' from your mindset than context and situation as well overhyping Zoro like he is on par with G4 when he certainly isn't. You need to do proper research before saying stuff like this when there is evidence to situation that suggest something different and counter your claim if not thought-out.
Sanji can take on Smoker as he shown more good showing despite his handicap than Smoker with his. I see it challenging fight, but still see the outcome still Sanji's more. He can use COA, it been canon for awhile and the anime showcase it even more. Both anime and manga state it already and where did Daifuku beat Sanji? He never did and Sanji wasn't KO from being sent back as he still clash back. He even withstood his Genie the second time with Armament Haki in it's giant form where it easily cut up ships moments chapters ago while chasing Carrot. Where you getting your facts? There is no logic to them at all. If he was to face them again, it be mid-diff/mid-diff+, hardly high diffed especially on Oven side as he was sent away easily with a kick without him trying.
I wouldn't be so sure. Pica can be take down if you pinpoint his location and knowing Vergo, he would have done that and get to him right quick. Thus he is stronger than him and can break down stuff like stones with ease.
Also how Bege is equal? Cause of the Castle? Sanji have broken down buildings and stones before pre-timeskip. Having an Castle made of himself won't change the damage he will get especially if Sanji uses Armament Haki in hurting him. Also he is lacking in attack power. What does Bege have? Cannon and bullets? Not gonna make different to Sanji especially his COO, so your really undermining the character than putting facts on why situation is.
No context and sense will have Page One alive and active. Idk why you try to denied it. Seem like you don't want anyone to give praises or accept Sanji did something good on defeating him. Sanji defeated him like it or not. No reason he would leave him behind if it would mess up the plans and if he did, he would have tell the others in latest chapter Page One is active. Nothing hints he could be around as Sanji isn't one to break promises at all. If your serious, then do more research than point out that Sanji is 'lacking' from your mindset than context and situation as well overhyping Zoro like he is on par with G4 when he certainly isn't. You need to do proper research before saying stuff like this when there is evidence to situation that suggest something different and counter your claim if not thought-out.
Sanji vs. Daifuku, it clearly shows Daifuku pushed Sanji away in the first scene. Is this enough evidence to say Daifuku is stronger than Sanji, no but we can infer that Daifuku is stronger as he pushed him away easily. Sanji couldn't push Daifuku back. I don't see him using CoA in the manga but I will accept it then that he has it.
In this skirmish, Sanji landed a good kick on Oven but as you can see Oven got up after light damage, not going to say that Oven didn't take damage but i feel that if they were too fight Sanji would eventually win but with high difficulty.
Now Sanji vs. Page One, why don't you show me where it states that Sanji defeated Page One, show me. I stated facts you have not. Nowhere does it show that Sanji has defeated Page One, oh Sanji was shown alive two days later...okay? He could've ran away from Page or lost or actually won...WE DO NOT KNOW. Not until Oda, shows the outcome of the fight then we can claim it. I'm not trying to downplay Sanji, but I've showed you two of the fights I claimed about Sanji's fights (Daifuku and Oven).
One off screen fight we did not see was Red Haired Pirates vs Beasts Pirates when Kaido tried going after WB. A day later Shanks showed up at MF, does that mean Shanks is stronger than Kaido and that he beat him? We don't know. Shanks could've talked him out of it or something, not until we know what really happen can we say that Shanks beat Kaido.
You need to do your research and find where it shows that Sanji beat Page One, basing it off on a promise that a character made is not enough evidence, look at Roger telling Rayleigh "i'm not gonna die partner" right before his execution, or when Ace told Luffy "i'm not gonna die" when they were kids chapter 589. There's my evidence. Promises can be broken.
I never said Zolo is on par with Luffy's G4, no way, i do not even think Zolo is on par with Luffy's G2/3 neither is Sanji.
Anti-matter kicks..WTH??
Damn Moe the forum is owning you right now.
I don't need to discuss current Sanji's Power Lv W/O his RS much any further. He's weaker than Smoker & Vergo, lets not even mention a Supernova like Law or Capone. When other mid tier characters are introduced such as Pekoms, Tamago & Pedro were introduced. Sanji lacks solid feats, a relevant takedown, or hype to say he can defeat any of those new world Pirates. Now his RS feat has shown he deserves to be up'd some tiers but Sanji overall still needs to work on his base and power.
Pekoms, Tamago & Pedro..I think all would give Zoro High difficulty. I actually view all of them to be stronger than Vergo. Who I believe Zoro was capable of taking down also, w/o fully exhausting himself, similar to Law.
Law, Capone, Hawkins, Urouge All these SuperNova Pirates are either Low grade Commanders, or sit at a level not very far under it. But unbias I admit, Zoro probably isn't stronger than them..But Zoro has shown himself to be a much better contender for New World Pirates than Sanji has...
Sanji vs. Daifuku, it clearly shows Daifuku pushed Sanji away in the first scene. Is this enough evidence to say Daifuku is stronger than Sanji, no but we can infer that Daifuku is stronger as he pushed him away easily. Sanji couldn't push Daifuku back. I don't see him using CoA in the manga but I will accept it then that he has it.
In this skirmish, Sanji landed a good kick on Oven but as you can see Oven got up after light damage, not going to say that Oven didn't take damage but i feel that if they were too fight Sanji would eventually win but with high difficulty.
Now Sanji vs. Page One, why don't you show me where it states that Sanji defeated Page One, show me. I stated facts you have not. Nowhere does it show that Sanji has defeated Page One, oh Sanji was shown alive two days later...okay? He could've ran away from Page or lost or actually won...WE DO NOT KNOW. Not until Oda, shows the outcome of the fight then we can claim it. I'm not trying to downplay Sanji, but I've showed you two of the fights I claimed about Sanji's fights (Daifuku and Oven).
One off screen fight we did not see was Red Haired Pirates vs Beasts Pirates when Kaido tried going after WB. A day later Shanks showed up at MF, does that mean Shanks is stronger than Kaido and that he beat him? We don't know. Shanks could've talked him out of it or something, not until we know what really happen can we say that Shanks beat Kaido.
You need to do your research and find where it shows that Sanji beat Page One, basing it off on a promise that a character made is not enough evidence, look at Roger telling Rayleigh "i'm not gonna die partner" right before his execution, or when Ace told Luffy "i'm not gonna die" when they were kids chapter 589. There's my evidence. Promises can be broken.
I never said Zolo is on par with Luffy's G4, no way, i do not even think Zolo is on par with Luffy's G2/3 neither is Sanji.
Since when does push away mean defeat or stronger? You know what a fight is, right? Sanji still was walking about and moving. That's not enough evidence to proof Daifuku could defeat Sanji especially you counter yourself with your own pictures when he block the hit the second time and Daifuku was easily stop by it despite he use that Giant Genie form to cut up ships early with Carrot. So you defeated your own argument with that. It's need to be zoomed on when he block the blade the second time as others discussed and shown me. Looking at it closer, there is darkish toned around his foot when he hit and he didn't have that in the first encounter, it's heavily emphasized to him using COA against it and more proof as the anime show it more clearly.
I doubt Oda would let it slip and have his characters shown a power they not supposed to have in the anime. He would get upset on that or talk about it, but hasn't been the case after it been anime.
As for Oven, you proving my points more. He was damage, you said he took 'little damage' from your past posts. Little damage doesn't make you have injuries and bruises as well blood on your face and body. It's emphasized more as he felt his neck throbbing after getting hit as you see the emotion on his face as he looks at his neck. Just correcting you as you don't seem to have check the context of the situation as much as you said in your past posts. If Oven was hurt that much from unnamed kick and by effortless speed by Sanji, then in full fight, he be mid-diff, not high-diff if he is already in pain from Sanji going easy on him.
It was stated with Law's and Sanji's talk in past chapters man. They stated that Sanji need to meet requirements to fight which were:
1. Have an disguise they don't found out his identity and be in same situation like Luffy and Zoro.
2. He must escape from injury without even a scratch as Law emphasize how crucial it's not to get hurt from.
3. He must do away with him before reinforcements arrive as well stop him from attacking innocent people as well.
So far he meet all the requirements and it's heavily implied he did the deed in knocking him out and beating him. This isn't the first or last time Oda's off-screen fights and we get results later and it turns out to be what we think on opponents being beaten. Look at BB vs Ace, Look at his own Siblings when facing BMP at their Germa base, and so on. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean IT DIDN'T HAPPEN (Emphasizing, not yelling). Your also talking about sides that doesn't make sense in both context and character. If Sanji didn't downed Page One and run, PO would be after him while attacking others in his wake which Sanji wouldn't let innocent people to get hurt out of it. That's not his character. What also isn't his character if it was a big issue, why didn't Sanji told Law and the others about it? It was never said. Sanji doesn't strike me as the person to lie about that or not tell anyone.
That means he did all the deed and doesn't need to be said as I wouldn't be surprise next chapter(s) it will reveal Page One knockout and beaten by Sanji and Drake and Hawkins founding his body like that. The possibilities you point out doesn't make sense and can't be consider 'possible' as Oda wouldnt' write things like that out of context.
Also are you trying to use Roger's and Ace's examples for your side? Dude, your failing to put backing on your side as you can't use their situations same as Sanji's as both are different circumstances and writing points, not the same your trying to insert. I am doing my research, but you need to do more on yours as you kinda counter your own claim as the pictures shown more visible on my point side than yours honestly.
You said in past posts that Zoro's last attack on Pica was as destruction lvl as Luffy's G4 which I came to tell you, it's not and not same lvl. If you didn't mind that, then you word it in another way of saying it as it will make others think your putting him same lvl as Luffy especially his strongest. I don't see Sanji as strong as Luffy either, but I do know him and Zoro can match his G2/G3. Their 'G4' has yet to be seen, so not gonna put them even equals with Luffy.
Anti-matter kicks..WTH??
Damn Moe the forum is owning you right now.
I don't need to discuss current Sanji's Power Lv W/O his RS much any further. He's weaker than Smoker & Vergo, lets not even mention a Supernova like Law or Capone. When other mid tier characters are introduced such as Pekoms, Tamago & Pedro were introduced. Sanji lacks solid feats, a relevant takedown, or hype to say he can defeat any of those new world Pirates. Now his RS feat has shown he deserves to be up'd some tiers but Sanji overall still needs to work on his base and power.
Pekoms, Tamago & Pedro..I think all would give Zoro High difficulty. I actually view all of them to be stronger than Vergo. Who I believe Zoro was capable of taking down also, w/o fully exhausting himself, similar to Law.
Law, Capone, Hawkins, Urouge All these SuperNova Pirates are either Low grade Commanders, or sit at a level not very far under it. But unbias I admit, Zoro probably isn't stronger than them..But Zoro has shown himself to be a much better contender for New World Pirates than Sanji has...
Dude did you really forget that move? Go back and read the Alabasta Arc when Sanji freed everyone from the cage where Crocodile put them in. Your truly embarrassing yourself over this. What owning? No one is owning me. The only side I see is you all trying your hardest to change my mind with your poor arguments and me and even M3J and Fox666 disagree on parts of yours like Vergo for one.
Nah, just your mindset he is. Listen, do us all a favor and admit you hate the character. Your not making this easy for yourself trying to be a 'fair user' when your not deep down. Sanji is above Smoker, Vergo, and Capone. Law is one I can say yeah he could beat Sanji, but it wouldn't be easy fight. Sanji has feats even holding back strong opponents put feats to him more than others and now he shows defeating PO in latest chapter, so your logic of saying Sanji is much of a fighter or 'weak' is clear biased, not fair opinion as your not examining situation as deeply. Sanji can handle himself both without and with RS, the issue is that his fights don't go fully, not because he was getting defeated as the only true lost was with Doflamingo, but he was such a power house that Law got defeated too and Zoro couldn't even cut his Birdcage in the end. Only Luffy got the better of him in the end.
I can see Zoro having difficulty with those guys. He hasn't shown he can take on serious opponents as much as he always get weaklings. His latest fight with Hawkins proves that he is somewhere at there lvl, so put emphasizes about it.
I see Sanji and Zoro stronger than Capone and Hawkins (Though Hawkins is bit more difficult with Zoro since he isn't good with 'tricky' opponents and using his head) Law, I see Law winning, but won't be easy with both. Urouge probably him, but if Sanji and Zoro take on higher-ups as Calamities (Or Orochi for Zoro), could put them above of Urouge in the end. Sanji have enough feats to be deadly upon as in the series he isn't taken liking for his power and even got send Top 6 Headliners after him and who he beat one of them in the latest. So again Sanji is doing fine on feats, I am now focused on Zoro's performance as many made a big stick saying it was 'his arc', but so far haven't seen anything 'thrilling' from his side at all. Kinda be boring and I am enjoying Sanji's and others' side a lot more lately in Wano.
Since when does push away mean defeat or stronger? You know what a fight is, right? Sanji still was walking about and moving. That's not enough evidence to proof Daifuku could defeat Sanji especially you counter yourself with your own pictures when he block the hit the second time and Daifuku was easily stop by it despite he use that Giant Genie form to cut up ships early with Carrot. So you defeated your own argument with that. It's need to be zoomed on when he block the blade the second time as others discussed and shown me. Looking at it closer, there is darkish toned around his foot when he hit and he didn't have that in the first encounter, it's heavily emphasized to him using COA against it and more proof as the anime show it more clearly.
I doubt Oda would let it slip and have his characters shown a power they not supposed to have in the anime. He would get upset on that or talk about it, but hasn't been the case after it been anime.
As for Oven, you proving my points more. He was damage, you said he took 'little damage' from your past posts. Little damage doesn't make you have injuries and bruises as well blood on your face and body. It's emphasized more as he felt his neck throbbing after getting hit as you see the emotion on his face as he looks at his neck. Just correcting you as you don't seem to have check the context of the situation as much as you said in your past posts. If Oven was hurt that much from unnamed kick and by effortless speed by Sanji, then in full fight, he be mid-diff, not high-diff if he is already in pain from Sanji going easy on him.
It was stated with Law's and Sanji's talk in past chapters man. They stated that Sanji need to meet requirements to fight which were:
1. Have an disguise they don't found out his identity and be in same situation like Luffy and Zoro.
2. He must escape from injury without even a scratch as Law emphasize how crucial it's not to get hurt from.
3. He must do away with him before reinforcements arrive as well stop him from attacking innocent people as well.
So far he meet all the requirements and it's heavily implied he did the deed in knocking him out and beating him. This isn't the first or last time Oda's off-screen fights and we get results later and it turns out to be what we think on opponents being beaten. Look at BB vs Ace, Look at his own Siblings when facing BMP at their Germa base, and so on. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean IT DIDN'T HAPPEN (Emphasizing, not yelling). Your also talking about sides that doesn't make sense in both context and character. If Sanji didn't downed Page One and run, PO would be after him while attacking others in his wake which Sanji wouldn't let innocent people to get hurt out of it. That's not his character. What also isn't his character if it was a big issue, why didn't Sanji told Law and the others about it? It was never said. Sanji doesn't strike me as the person to lie about that or not tell anyone.
That means he did all the deed and doesn't need to be said as I wouldn't be surprise next chapter(s) it will reveal Page One knockout and beaten by Sanji and Drake and Hawkins founding his body like that. The possibilities you point out doesn't make sense and can't be consider 'possible' as Oda wouldnt' write things like that out of context.
Also are you trying to use Roger's and Ace's examples for your side? Dude, your failing to put backing on your side as you can't use their situations same as Sanji's as both are different circumstances and writing points, not the same your trying to insert. I am doing my research, but you need to do more on yours as you kinda counter your own claim as the pictures shown more visible on my point side than yours honestly.
You said in past posts that Zoro's last attack on Pica was as destruction lvl as Luffy's G4 which I came to tell you, it's not and not same lvl. If you didn't mind that, then you word it in another way of saying it as it will make others think your putting him same lvl as Luffy especially his strongest. I don't see Sanji as strong as Luffy either, but I do know him and Zoro can match his G2/G3. Their 'G4' has yet to be seen, so not gonna put them even equals with Luffy.
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Dude did you really forget that move? Go back and read the Alabasta Arc when Sanji freed everyone from the cage where Crocodile put them in. Your truly embarrassing yourself over this. What owning? No one is owning me. The only side I see is you all trying your hardest to change my mind with your poor arguments and me and even M3J and Fox666 disagree on parts of yours like Vergo for one.
Nah, just your mindset he is. Listen, do us all a favor and admit you hate the character. Your not making this easy for yourself trying to be a 'fair user' when your not deep down. Sanji is above Smoker, Vergo, and Capone. Law is one I can say yeah he could beat Sanji, but it wouldn't be easy fight. Sanji has feats even holding back strong opponents put feats to him more than others and now he shows defeating PO in latest chapter, so your logic of saying Sanji is much of a fighter or 'weak' is clear biased, not fair opinion as your not examining situation as deeply. Sanji can handle himself both without and with RS, the issue is that his fights don't go fully, not because he was getting defeated as the only true lost was with Doflamingo, but he was such a power house that Law got defeated too and Zoro couldn't even cut his Birdcage in the end. Only Luffy got the better of him in the end.
I can see Zoro having difficulty with those guys. He hasn't shown he can take on serious opponents as much as he always get weaklings. His latest fight with Hawkins proves that he is somewhere at there lvl, so put emphasizes about it.
I see Sanji and Zoro stronger than Capone and Hawkins (Though Hawkins is bit more difficult with Zoro since he isn't good with 'tricky' opponents and using his head) Law, I see Law winning, but won't be easy with both. Urouge probably him, but if Sanji and Zoro take on higher-ups as Calamities (Or Orochi for Zoro), could put them above of Urouge in the end. Sanji have enough feats to be deadly upon as in the series he isn't taken liking for his power and even got send Top 6 Headliners after him and who he beat one of them in the latest. So again Sanji is doing fine on feats, I am now focused on Zoro's performance as many made a big stick saying it was 'his arc', but so far haven't seen anything 'thrilling' from his side at all. Kinda be boring and I am enjoying Sanji's and others' side a lot more lately in Wano.
Please stop saying Sanji defeated Page One, until it is shown that he indeed defeated PO. You have no evidence to show that he did defeat him. You say I hate Sanji, I say you're a Sanji fan and that's why your opinion on Sanji is so biased. That you just can't picture Sanji losing to other characters that are near or slightly above his level.
Please stop saying Sanji defeated Page One, until it is shown that he indeed defeated PO. You have no evidence to show that he did defeat him. You say I hate Sanji, I say you're a Sanji fan and that's why your opinion on Sanji is so biased. That you just can't picture Sanji losing to other characters that are near or slightly above his level.
Please tell me in context and it must MAKE SENSE (Emphasizing), if Sanji didn't take out PO, why he never told the others? Sanji is a trustworthy guy, so he wouldn't leave his friends like that and not tell them. Plus if Page One is active, why wasn't he there and chasing after him? Even if he didn't catch up, there would be screams of people running away when he is around the area as well him roaring around in anger. Tell me what evidence you have that can make this all good sense and it goes the context? That's the issue here. You can't say 'Oh! It's off-screen! Anything could happen!' as the excuse it could when it doesn't make sense by logic and Oda's writing. He wouldn't emphasized so much with Law and Sanji about Page One need to go down if it wasn't needed. That's the issue you are trying to insert, but it doesn't have backing on those statements your saying.
My evidence isn't biased, it's with logic and research. Yours on the other hand isn't trying to give it as second thought and only have yours by it being off-screen when it's impossible for those moments to happen especially context of latest chapter. Those routes wouldn't make sense as Sanji would act the way he was and not say anything if PO was still active is what I am telling you. I am fine with Sanji losing as I said his only lost was to Doflamingo. No big deal, but he didn't lose in this one especially he isn't hurt at all. Your pushing something that doesn't exist from your end at all.
@King Moe I only hate discussing Sanji; WIth You. Hate may be a strong word but I strongly dislike it. To the point I just don't like to see you fanboyism about Sanji anywhere or anytime. It makes others hate on him, unnecessarily even though his performances been poor. But fanboying over bad showings makes us "me" bonkers.
You got owned. Your post are having less and less relevancy to anything actually factual. The name of Sanji's kick is Anti-manner not Anti-Matter which is referring to something else entirely. Why you would think Zoro or Sanji can defeat Capone?? I wouldn't know. When Capone has a giant castle that even BM didn't break right away from pounding on it. It was pretty damn sturdy. And most of all That cut the Birdcage thing again....You keep running with that line. & it makes no sense
@XXGenesis You shouldn't hate him over me especially when I been doing nothing, but posting facts and logic about him. You guys been undermining him to the extremes as you act like he no longer a fighter which is ignorance behind that. It's not fanboyism, he bringing back reality in our talks about the character. Did I say Sanji could do everything? No. Did I said he is the strongest character in the series? No. I am putting him on fair and balance description of what he can do and what he can't do. His performance has been fine as the only thing lacking him finishing fights, but that doesn't mean he is a 'weakling' or anything of the such.
Nah, that's seem to be yours as you seem acting our on emotions than I am. Also and? Just because I have typos on technique name, doesn't take away my point that we haven't seen Sanji use that technique in NW yet and even in Haki or DF format or both. You seriously don't see them stronger than Capone? What is your hype idea over Bege? I give the man props surviving Big Mom's wrath, but that doesn't mean he wasn't hurt or trying to fight her. Zoro cut up Pica as that shows he have no problem cutting up stone castle Bege is in and been cutting up buildings and stones since pre-timeskip. Sanji have shown he can destroy ground and buildings the same since pre-timeskip too and show handling against fighters who have high destruction lvl in same arc like Daifuku and Oven especially former as Sanji easily block his Genie's blade who was able to cut up ships like paper when chasing Carrot.
If they use COA especially Hardening to help nullify his DF natural resistant more, it's over. I don't see Bege and it sounds like your putting Bege Yonko lvl just because he took punches? That's TOO (Emphasizing) out there and make zero sense at all.
Because after Zoro cutting Pica's large body, your saying he shouldn't do the same with Birdcage? Where's the logic in that? Isn't he not a swordsman? First instinct is to cut, not to push. If he didn't it means he was not ready to cut it and was no match with Doflamingo at all if they were to face each other. I have sense with each of my posts. I am still waiting on yours and you to try to be more fair in your statements please.
We gave proper cheer to Bege for surviving multiple hits from Big Mom and you interpret that as Bege being Yonko level.
You are the worst guy to have an argument with especially when Sanji is involved. It makes you look down on everything else with eyes only on whatever little thing Sanji's done. Your judgement is increasingly clouded, making your fanboyism even worse.
I think you should pause and take a long hard look at all of your posts so far regarding Sanji and check were you went wrong.
There's no more hope for you man if you can see others flaws and not yours.
Now I see why HP's absolved himself of debating with guys such as yourself. It's a total waste of time that leads nowhere.
We gave proper cheer to Bege for surviving multiple hits from Big Mom and you interpret that as Bege being Yonko level.
You are the worst guy to have an argument with especially when Sanji is involved. It makes you look down on everything else with eyes only on whatever little thing Sanji's done. Your judgement is increasingly clouded, making your fanboyism even worse.
I think you should pause and take a long hard look at all of your posts so far regarding Sanji and check were you went wrong.
There's no more hope for you man if you can see others flaws and not yours.
Now I see why HP's absolved himself of debating with guys such as yourself. It's a total waste of time that leads nowhere.
You guys saying he so strong he is like that and stating not many others can break through now when Big Mom probably wasn't at full power when she punch him.
Nah, just guys like you who can't admit when they are countered and accept faults. I accept mine, but have yet to see you accept yours at all. Your the one who came into a conversation and talk down about how I talk when my methods aren't like how you think. I am actually fair with Sanji's on how he does, you guys push him down like he stops fighting or can no longer get stronger that it's ridiculous. I am not the only one getting annoyed by it around the forum. Why your clouding that 'everyone' thinks this when they don't especially majority of the fanbase. It's not my fanboyism. It's me being a decent fan to step in and let you guys know it's not like the situation at all.
Don't get upset just because you disagree with my side even as I put in facts and logic. I can see mine, but you need to see yours man. Really it help you if you learn to understand more context and be fair judging things than by appearance. I know my flaws and I have already admit my mistakes in my past posts if you look around.
HP can post who he wants to, if he can't learn to accept different opinions and choose to ignore others over it, then that's his choice, but doesn't mean the other person is a problem. This is life, not everyone will agree on everything you state. I learn to accept that, but have you guys learn your end? Please don't take my words as serious and learn to accept them as we will have all different opinions on this forum at the end of the day. We must learn to deal with them and don't get emotional if it's not the way we want it. Just being honest and telling you.
