Predictions V is not Dead/V... is Enryu (theory)

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. I couldn't find a similar thread.

Wall of text warning!

How V could be Enryu (see explanation of how V could have faked his death and why he'd be motivated to do so down below)

OK, if you suspend your disbelief about V's death, consider the striking similarities:

Irregulars:
- V is an irregular (extremely rare) from outside the tower who forced his way in.
- Enryu is an irregular (extremely rare) from outside the tower who forced his way in.
(both are irregulars, V would have had to make his way back out, but by then he'd know his way out/in if he were Enryu - or he had never left in the first place)

Knowledge of In-Tower Events Relating to Arlen and Zahard:
- V, as an original 13 irregular that came in with Zahard, was obviously familiar with everything that went down, at least up to his 'death' which was well after all the notable incidents with Zahard.
- Enryu, from outside of the tower, somehow was not only familiar with Arlen but was a vocal supporter. He was familiar with the Z empire, and that the future FoD had a desecration of Arlen's memory there that he felt the need to rectify - while bringing something needed to kill Zahard, the Thorn. V, losing the rebellion, didn't have the arsenal - at that time - to defeat Jahard. But, if alive, he'd certainly have sought out/created something like the Thorn.
(In other words, Enryu is not just some random irregular entering the tower; he was uniquely tied to the side of the rebellion against Zahard with Arlen/V. But, if he hadn't participated in the rebellion because he supposedly came in later as 'new', how would he know these things and why would he curiously have the SAME EXACT motivations as V?)

Shinsoo Mastery:
- V reportedly had incredible shinsoo mastery - he had the highest shinsoo tension in a group of 13 irregulars, greater than even Zahard (and the only higher ranked individual is...)
- Enryu reportedly had incredible shinsoo mastery - he possibly had the highest shinsoo mastery in the history of the tower, higher than even Zahard.
(both in at least one way have the highest reported shinsoo mastery as irregulars or regulars, over Zahard the tower's king... basically only "two" individuals have stronger mastery of shinsoo than Zahard - or, only ONE person)

Shinsoo Life-Creation:
- V's son, Baam, was brought back to life, presumably with a spell and/or shinsoo mastery (spells are probably some sort of shinsoo manipulation anyways) to the point of life regeneration/creation. If V made his way outside, he could have been involved in bringing his son back to life if he discovered a way once he left the tower. This makes infinitely more sense than killing yourself and leaving your wife to the task...
- Enryu reportedly has shinsoo mastery to the point he can create life, why do you think this specific feat has been pointed out as legend as it pertains to his character, and not even hinted as showing why this myth was thought to be the case?
(both have many traits in common, including being linked to the ability or desire to create life/raise the dead)

Weapons:
- V was shown with either a needle or sword in a flashback fleeing from Zahard
- Enryu left a needle-like thorn and fought bare-handed using shinsoo alone (did he leave his favorite weapon of choice, perhaps with a buff strong enough for Baam to use to kill Zahard?). He is said to be a spear-bearer, but elites are obviously proficient in all weapons. Some spear-bearers, according to the wiki, also carry needles in their pipes for melee battles (such as when fleeing...?). One aside - Kranos, a needle, sort of reminds me of the sealed thorn.
(both are curiously linked to a needle of all things but more than capable of fighting using their bigger strength instead, shinsoo)

Arlen:
- V, as Arlen's husband, is clearly sensitive to any attacks on Arlen (her person or memory).
- Enryu, as a seemingly new irregular in the tower, is inexplicably upset when he thought Arlen's shrine was desecrated. Arlen, who was long gone before Enryu's entrance into the tower, supposedly.
(both are obviously extremely defensive over Arlen, and only V makes sense as to why, unless....)

Baam:
- V is the father of Baam, so, yeah. He would certainly want to avenge his death, and reanimate him.
- Enryu, while not explicitly naming Baam, wants to arm the chosen individual (obviously Baam) to kill the king (obviously Z)
(both have overlapping desires for Baam to revenge himself/Arlen against Zahard)

Zahard:
- V thought, as with Arlen, that Zahard had been blinded by "falsehoods" prior to his decision to stop climbing and later coronation
- Enryu pointedly called Zahard a "false" king
(both have the same attitude that Zahard's kingship is "false"/illegitimate)

Magnanimous:
- V was said by Eduan to be considerate of individuals/tower residents
- Enryu had every opportunity kill ALL of Zahard's supporters, but gave them the chance to just leave and be spared
(this one is kind of simple)

Timeline:
- V entered with Z, then 'left' either by death or by faking his death
- Enryu entered well after the events of Z's rise
(Enryu was the first of only a select VERY few irregulars to arrive after the original 13... he was possibly just a revisiting V as Enryu. Again, if he ever left in the first place. The chronology checks out)

Strength:
- V's speculative-would-be rank is obviously unknown, but what IS known is that even Zahard couldn't/didn't kill someone that purportedly wasn't even protected with the immortality spell (and if he'd kill his baby, he'd clearly kill V... if he had the strength to do so that is - heavily implying he couldn't). V also, with only a spell-caster by his side (Arlen), was able to fend off 10 great family heads AND Zahard in a civil war and survive. Granted, he didn't win, but such a feat is testament to a great strength. To be able to handle such a dog-pile (yes, he had supporters, but so did the 11 against him most likely) and survive unscathed could very well mean V was possibly, probably even, stronger than Zahard 1-on-1, but just not Zahard and all the other TEN powerful irregulars (all with immortality!) against him (or he couldn't overrule the immortality perhaps). Or perhaps he couldn't kill Zahard because then he'd lose the key. So maybe that was like fighting him with limitations b/c he couldn't go all-out.
- Enryu is undoubtedly stronger than Zahard, capable of controlling the most bangs, killing an admin that even Zahard could not do.
(both are arguably the two only non-axis individuals stronger than Zahard... and per rankings that includes Urek)

Guardians/Admin:
- V is likely not a big fan of the admin, who have subsidized, underwritten, and acted as enablers to the Zahard empire - which V views as a false dynasty.
- Enryu is clearly not taking any shit from admin, the only person to kill one (who happened to be working against his defense of Arlen's legacy)
(this one is pretty easy enough as well - if V returned he'd certainly have an ax to grind with any admin that got in his way this time, or tacitly supported Zahard, or threatened Arlen/Baam or their memory. No one else is uniquely hostile or has the motivation to be hostile towards admin)

Genetic Traits for Progeny:
- V would more than likely pass down traits ranging from appearance to inherent shinsoo powers/features, as well as his prodigal use of shinsoo
- Enryu would more than likely pass down traits ranging from appearance to inherent shinsoo powers/features, as well as his prodigal use of shinsoo
(Baam clearly favors his father in looks - as much as we can tell from the back lol, but young Baam with shorter hair could also favor Enryu a bit if his hair was red. Maybe that's a stretch, but what is not a stretch is Baam is a prodigy when it comes to learning/using shinsoo moves, just like V/Enryu. Now, check this out - Enryu's signature shinsoo move? Red Rain. Baam's most recent, high-level shinsoo move used in Yama's ship to kill multiple enemies at once? RAIN. The only thing it lacked to be exactly like Red Rain was the red color.... which, Baam's shinsoo has been shown to turn red at times when it is influenced by the Thorn - Enryu's Thorn. Theoretically then, Baam can do Red Rain. Just like Enryu, but like no one else that we've seen or heard. Check the wiki's section on Baam's powers and abilities, pt. III for confirmation, or the recent chapter 422)

Other than reporting as 'dead' (off-screen, mythos), I find it harder to argue AGAINST V being Enryu considering everything, however...

Rebuttals:

"But, V is Dead. SIU said so!"
- Is he? That's the story at least. 'Surprise, I wasn't really dead all along!' isn't exactly new. Or, 'Surprise, I had found a way to look after you, son, without alerting anyone to who I am.' See; any manga/fiction ever. We have the surprise about Aizen's death in Bleach. Or the revelation that Isshin was really a powerful captain looking over Ichigo. Or that his mother was really a Quincy. In Naruto, we have the revelation that Orochimaru didn't actually die when originally thought killed. We have Madara not really dying when thought (this, other than Kaguya, was really the big twist/reveal). We have 'Pain' not really pulling the strings for Akatsuki. We have the Tobi/Obito double-life where Tobi didn't really die when thought. We have the Mufasa-esque way that Minato figured out how to stay watching over Naruto's growth. There's always other manga too - Griffith's betrayal. Or Movies - Neo's not in the real world, he's in the Matrix. Or Vader is Luke's father. Or, in the SW/EU, that Palpatine 'came back' as he had himself cloned. Or, hell, the ep9 trailer makes it sound like Sheev's back. ffs, it's almost guaranteed someone thought to be dead really isn't, or that someone thought to be that person is in reality another person altogether.

The point is, this type of thing is nothing new.

"OK, so if he didn't die, how would that work exactly?"
- I can think of many ways, there are undoubtedly more.
1. V, losing the battle, took the heat off Arlen and himself by faking his death for Arlen's sake after their son was killed. Arlen either was or wasn't in on it. If she wasn't, it was truly to pacify her grieving mind, though it didn't work as intended (for her to forget everything and rejoin the group) and would have caused her more grief, so I don't believe that would have been a smart move. If she was, she easily falsified the pocket diary and other efforts to keep up the appearance (I've said it before, but read Gone Girl...).
2. V, losing the battle, really did kill himself after Baam was murdered. He was either also reanimated by the same individual that revived Baam, or Arlen did it herself (and possibly Baam too) as the witch she is. If he was revived from the dead, it could have had an effect on hair color/eye color and shinsoo color (red is the color of anger, vengeance, hatred, fire, blood, etc - all fitting). Enryu could be his alias, or his new name altogether as a 'new' person. He might or might not know who he is/was as a reanimated monster Enryu.
3. V, losing the battle, really did kill himself. Surprise! Irregulars (all) can't die while in the tower. It seemed like a real death and was convincing (think Wangnam's seemingly fatal blow), but he either completely revived or never all the way died. This is unknown, or known, by admin who offer 'immortality contracts' for the 10FH and Z. This makes the contracts moot/redundant. Sounds silly? Well, Baam was told by an admin ANY SHINSOO contract was redundant, and limiting, as he already had access and control over shinsoo. So redundant contracts is cannon. Think the movie Death Becomes Her.
4. V, losing the battle, attempted suicide. He appeared convincingly dead, but never died. He actually had the immortality gift after all, and concocted a story where he didn't so he could fake his death. Life insurance fraud in the ToG universe.
5. V was prevented from death by the healing exoskeleton/lobster (remember that)? This could have also been gifted into FUG, or recreated by FUG at a later point. It would have a higher ability for someone at V's level instead of lowly Baam when we last saw it.
6. V really did die. However, he was reformed into a weapon (the Thorn) either by an Arlen spell or the outside 'god' (or both). The Thorn is blood-red, which is appropriate for re-purposed flesh. Or V lived and poured himself into the Thorn to be used as a weapon (as either Enryu himself on the FoD, or before and Enryu is to deliver the Thorn/V). Whatever. Zanpakato have souls, 13 months have souls, ignition weapons have souls, the thorn could very-well have the soul (bound by a spell from Arlen) of V/Enryu. Credit to someone else somewhere that said Enryu IS the Thorn. I'm just saying maybe V IS Enryu IS the Thorn. Or that V is the Thorn and Enryu delivers it/him. Either way.

"But, what about Arlen's pocket diary?"
- See #1 above. Then, go read Gone Girl. Or see the movie if pressed for time.

"But, why would he do such a thing?"
- See above answers. Also, killing yourself and leaving your grieving wife is a silly move. Now she has a dead kid, husband, and STILL can't die herself. No one is left to enact vengeance on Zahard. It also didn't have the effect he supposedly wanted we are told. It solved NOTHING. Not to sound like a PSA, but suicide doesn't solve the problem, it is a cheap 'out'.

"What about their appearances??"
- It worked for Clark Kent and Superman, and a million other aliases. Whether V redid his look purposefully, or was somehow reborn, what are we talking about exactly? V's face is purposefully not shown. A haircut, and some dye. Although I suspect Enryu's unique hair/eye color has more to do with what happened to him (V) to buff him so. We don't know V's height, that would be hard to fake.

"If V was Enryu-powerful then why didn't he just kill Zahard?"
- Well, if Enryu was so powerful and hated Zahard, why didn't HE just kill Zahard? Obviously for the same reason that V wouldn't if they're one and the same. So why didn't Enryu? Enryu is qualified as he is an irregular, unbound by contracts, and stronger than Zahard, so what gives? Maybe both want the poetic justice of Baam being the one to take down Zahard. Maybe, like Itachi and Sasuke, he wanted to motivate Baam and get him to grow. But I suspect it has something to do with the key. If I kill the only person who knows where a key to a safe is, I'm not getting in the safe. Hell, why did Phanta stop short of killing Zahard? I think that V/Enryu is stronger than Zahard in a 1-on-1 BEFORE the King of the Tower contract effect is taken into account. It might not be enough to be a stronger irregular to best Zahard considering the contract. V probably ran into this during civil war.

"This goes against the story."
- Well, yeah. Laugh now, cry later.

"You're crazy/type too much."
- Probably.

"I'm just skimming and haven't read everything."
- I know.




Maybe one reason SIU won't give a firm number of irregulars is... the math might give it away. For instance, if he said there were only 17 irregulars? Or... 16 (see fourth alternative below)? (go ahead and do the head math lol)

Alternatives to this theory in the same vein:

1. Enryu is V's brother, out to avenge V's death and his sister-in-law's treatment. So, V's not Enryu here but most everything else lines up the two were related in such a way. Enryu didn't enter the Tower along with V in this case, but found out what had happened from Arlen later after she made her way out. They would still have many similar features as brothers, and many same motivations.
2. Enryu/V is working for the same 'god' that Arlen found outside the tower to raise Baam from the dead. As a disciple, he (V) too has learned that ability of life-creation. Arlen is a fellow disciple? (Arlen could have came back and reanimated V since she did the same for Baam)
3. Enryu/V is working for the same 'god' that Arlen 'found' outside the tower - it is V who had first made his way out and increased his abilities to that of a god, and reanimated Baam. Arlen, in her grief, might or might not have recognized V, but probably would. Enryu spoke in third-person.
4. Enryu, as V, is working for the same 'god' that Arlen 'found' outside the tower - she found it in herself and speaks of herself (an awakened state from her grief). It would more than likely require a spell to raise the dead anyways. V/Enryu sees Arlen at this level as a 'god' (and maybe she's even Phantaminum - they both have long hair, appear insane, and a hard-on for Zahard. Phanta was said to be a normal human that 'awoke' to axis/god status. Most everyone was either killed or went insane from seeing Phanta, except one, Yuri. Maybe she chose to present as male, or was so ambiguous as to her crazy look that she was reported as 'dirty' by Yuri - like a dirty, crazy cat-lady who is sad over her son's death. But since Phanta supposedly predates the Tower, this is highly unlikely. Unless 'awakening' into an axis is like gaining the ancient Phoenix Force in Marvel Comics - Jean Grey became the Dark Phoenix, god-tier, that predates her mortal character... If she's not Phanta, maybe she's just a different axis now). Maybe Arlen also reanimated V, and sent him back as Enryu with the red-rage power-up spell buff and the thorn she had been involved in crafting. Enryu might or might not be aware he was recreated from V to be an avenger of 'god', but would certainly not stand for a desecration to her memory (again, viewing her with god-level status).

We have been told that Enryu would be back (if he ever left) in the Tower at a later part in the series, probably around the Climax. A la when Isshin taught Ichigo Final Getsuga Tensho. Enryu/V will reveal his character to Baam, teach him to use the Thorn, bail him out when fighting Zahard. Something like that. Possibly.

I fully anticipate *crickets* or 'nah' responses lol

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Food for thought:

'rain' forming

'rain' killing

+

thorn red shinsoo injection

thorn red shinsoo injection

=

'red rain'

'red rain'

/Baam can do Red Rain confirmed

 

[toil]

I expected to think it was a ridiculous theory but laying it out like this I actually see something like this being possible. Far too early to do more than speculate wildly about the specifics.

What I would guess is that the state of the world outside the tower is going to wind up significant and will be what "explains" all of this. Like, it's not going to be the case that there's just these towers there, and one day 13 BFFs pick a tower to raid just for fun. I don't know what the case will be, but...that won't be it, and if there's a V/Enryuu connection the truth is out there will be outside the tower.

I do wonder if something about the immortality contract binds you to the tower in a way that V wasn't. As total speculation, for example, V "dies" in the tower, wakes up outside (Ganon laughing), solo challenges another tower, wins, then comes back to the first tower b/c they need to wrap it up? Which the other great warriors couldn't do because of something about the immortality contract?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I expected to think it was a ridiculous theory but laying it out like this I actually see something like this being possible. Far too early to do more than speculate wildly about the specifics.

Oh, I'm 100% shoe-horning data-points to fit my ridiculous theory in a confirmation bias sort of way. That being the case, it was pretty easy, too easy, to stuff-data points after all, and didn't require near the force needed for a typical wishful-thinking theory (at least like some of my others...). So, I'm conflicted. It is, however as you say, still wild speculation (but with some basis!). But there's something there, damn it. V/Arlen and Enryu... the similarities... the coincidences... the motivations. They are of course related in some way, and we all expect a twist (or several a la any manga ever), so if it's not this it's something equally out of left field.

What I would guess is that the state of the world outside the tower is going to wind up significant and will be what "explains" all of this. Like, it's not going to be the case that there's just these towers there, and one day 13 BFFs pick a tower to raid just for fun. I don't know what the case will be, but...that won't be it, and if there's a V/Enryuu connection the truth is out there will be outside the tower.

Well, they're certainly connected via Arlen AND Baam. And Zahard. And the other finer points so that any small point, taken in isolation, proves nothing (they both use a needle? As do millions or billions of other tower residents...). But taken altogether.... meh? No one can be sure what role outside the Tower will play, but we apparently have only the smallest group of people (relative to tower size) - all interrelated - coming and going in this ONE Tower. Some we've only heard to enter, some have left, some we THINK have left, and they are having some connection on the outside it seems. I do think, for the most part, this Tower's story is relatively isolated. I think if there are other related TU stories, they will have a few characters or incidents carry over. Recurring characters perhaps. But we have no reason, at this point, to think the bigger story will wildly affect what's going on in the tower to the point that intra-Tower character interactions are less meaningful than an as-yet introduced set of characters. A wider outside world wouldn't necessarily rule out such a theory as V being Enryu (it could in effect support it). Like I put in my post - maybe there's a cult of sorts and at least Arlen, if not Enryu/V, is a member/acolyte. Maybe she ascended to godhood in said cult once she escaped the tower and 'got woke'. Etc.

I do wonder if something about the immortality contract binds you to the tower in a way that V wasn't. As total speculation, for example, V "dies" in the tower, wakes up outside (Ganon laughing), solo challenges another tower, wins, then comes back to the first tower b/c they need to wrap it up? Which the other great warriors couldn't do because of something about the immortality contract?

I agree that's possible, like we discussed in the other thread. Baam has been told that any shinsoo contract is redundant and useless (he already has access as an irregular). Contracts are mostly shinsoo-based (we both suspect this relates to immortality as well - shinsoo is used to shore up the immortality). Thus ALL contracts could be shinsoo-based. And it's possible that whether intended or not the OG-13 (minus V perhaps) traded their irregular status perks for immortality and were bound to the tower. However, Arlen supposedly found a way out when she was under contract. I just think it's easier to imagine that irregular status supercedes any and all contracts, and an immortality contract, like a shinsoo (usage) contract, is naturally redundant and therefor moot. Contracts are to fool residents, and only fool irregulars take contracts which are naturally limiting to them. They ALREADY have the perks. They're essentially unilateral contracts. Or, would you believe that some contracts are redundant and others aren't?

Obviously there's something that we haven't been told that will tie all this together. Why not this crazy shit theory?

Thanks for the pity response.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2019 ---

I am pretty proud of myself with the 'Red Rain' connection. Though I realize it is Thorn-based, so conceivably anyone with the right shinsoo mastery to do 'rain' that ALSO had the thorn (both Enryu and Baam) could do 'red rain'. Though I do think it's significant and I think we're shown 'rain' by Baam specifically for a reason.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2019 ---

This definitely reminds me of Enryu! Interestingly, Garam compared Baam to Enryu and not the family heads.

@Brian Taboada

 

[toil]

I do think, for the most part, this Tower's story is relatively isolated.

I question this a bit, but we'll know when we know.

I agree that's possible, like we discussed in the other thread. Baam has been told that any shinsoo contract is redundant and useless (he already has access as an irregular). Contracts are mostly shinsoo-based (we both suspect this relates to immortality as well - shinsoo is used to shore up the immortality). Thus ALL contracts could be shinsoo-based. And it's possible that whether intended or not the OG-13 (minus V perhaps) traded their irregular status perks for immortality and were bound to the tower. However, Arlen supposedly found a way out when she was under contract. I just think it's easier to imagine that irregular status supercedes any and all contracts, and an immortality contract, like a shinsoo (usage) contract, is naturally redundant and therefor moot. Contracts are to fool residents, and only fool irregulars take contracts which are naturally limiting to them. They ALREADY have the perks. They're essentially unilateral contracts. Or, would you believe that some contracts are redundant and others aren't?

I think the hidden floor setup will turn out to be pretty much "the story" here, but I also think we don't know, yet, how to map it back to the story of the tower. But I do expect time to flow differently outside the tower and for there to be at least two "real worlds outside the tower", with the hidden hidden floor resembling the one Zahard came from and Baam being from-or-deposited-within some other outside world. Similarly I was thinking of Zahard and friends getting their immortality by striking a deal to remain permanently within "the game tower world", and thus V's lack of immortality meaning he didn't permanently enter and thus he's just "game-overed" after death.

This hopefully isn't literally true, but had something along these lines in mind for how V "becomes" Enryu. If it does skew more VR-ish than I'd like, though, maybe V is young-Enryu's character-creation avatar and then Enryu is just Enryu.

 

[shaheer]

I agree with V being powerful. But i dont think V was stronger than Zahard. Zahard was the group's leader the stereotypical adventurer leader in uncharted lands but gone tyrant after conquering to the hypothetical top. By default, he was the strongest. V was the kind-hearted but powerful voice inside the group who didnt get along with the hard headed leader but went along any way because why not, but in this case after Zahard turned as a despot he had to rebel(generally doenst happen in stories where zahard chara is the MC).
Also the story wouldnt make much sense if V was already so strong I mean shonen derives its message in surpassing your daddy. Bam would surpass V in power, If V was stronger than Zahard then Zahard doesnt pose that big a threat to Bam, Bam surpassing V should make him comparable to Zahard and who the stronger is, is only to be decided after they duked it off.

Best bet is V and arlene was somewhat related to Enryu. I d think Enryu was some kind of major priest for the god they served outside. When arlene went outside and related the horror she had to go through and offered Bam to the God outside. God of outside did 2 things: Revive Bam and sent his priest to remind Zahard that reckoning is coming one day. As the God of outside is immensely powerful I am willing to concede that his main followers ie like Enryu will have powers that surpasses admins in the tower. So when the admin tried to put Enryu down Enryu just smacked it to its place. Also I think Arlene was some kind of priestess of the God of outside. Her clothes reminded me of those that of priestess. Which is why she was confident that if she goes outside her prayers would be heard and the messenger with the thorn would arrive.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I agree with V being powerful. But i dont think V was stronger than Zahard. Zahard was the group's leader the stereotypical adventurer leader in uncharted lands but gone tyrant after conquering to the hypothetical top. By default, he was the strongest. V was the kind-hearted but powerful voice inside the group who didnt get along with the hard headed leader but went along any way because why not, but in this case after Zahard turned as a despot he had to rebel(generally doenst happen in stories where zahard chara is the MC).

I just can't agree that V was without a doubt weaker than Zahard. We simply don't know enough. Maybe V was more passive. Maybe they were all relatively powerful within a small margin, but Zahard took initiative. Not sure by what margin Z won against Hon, but we don't have any data on if V could have took either on 1-on-1. V preceded the ranking system. There is a possibility that V was actually on level with Z, if not above him. Z had the immortality contract, which V did not decide to get. Maybe V was OK playing second chair so long as Z kept being a leader that pushed the team up the tower.

Consider the matchup.

Group A:

- V, no contract
- Arlen, contract, spell-caster, likely not a heavy-hitter in direct combat. Probably on par with your typical 10FH, if not on the weaker end of the spectrum. Some level of pregnant.
- Their supporters.

Group B:

- Z, contract, beats Arie Hon in 1-on-1, ruler, highest ranked outside of Enryu and Phanta
- Arie Hon, contract, strongest of the 10FH after Z
- Eduan, contract, when partnered with...
- Hendo, contract, when partnered with Eduan they formed an 'invincible team' (2-on-1 they can beat Zahard?)
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- 7 other FH powerhouses, all with contracts
- Their supporters. (supporters likely cancel out V's supporters considering the scale of the family heads fighting)

So, if V was even EQUAL to Z, then this should have been a bloodbath as the two would cancel out and the 10FH would massacre Arlen and their army. Particularly when V doesn't have the immortality contract. If he was notably weaker than Z, then this would have been over before it began and V would be drawn and quartered.

So, while V didn't win (again, no contract, only Arlen by his side) against Zahard and 10 other immortal family heads, he not only survived, as a mortal, but was capable of fleeing unscathed. BTW, Arlen fought pregnant, if she fought directly at all. V wasn't killed, likely couldn't be, and we know if Zahard would kill his son he'd not stop at killing V if he was capable. Surviving such a war is a win in of itself.

So, you think that a baby-murdering Zahard was unwilling, yet able, to kill a purportedly weaker, mortal V who impregnated his boo and waged war against him?

I'd argue that V was simply stronger than Z singularly, but without an immortality contract he couldn't win out, and certainly couldn't survive the dog-pile of the 10FH backing up Zahard.

Regardless, even if he was weaker back then he could have still came back as a stronger Enryu after training/getting buffed outside the tower/'awakening'/spell-buffs from Arlen/"god's" blessings/being reborn/etc

Also the story wouldnt make much sense if V was already so strong I mean shonen derives its message in surpassing your daddy. Bam would surpass V in power, If V was stronger than Zahard then Zahard doesnt pose that big a threat to Bam, Bam surpassing V should make him comparable to Zahard and who the stronger is, is only to be decided after they duked it off.

Baam is obviously still growing and not at the point his father was at - by age or strength. Even Enryu stayed his hand against Zahard, and he's undoubtedly stronger. I'd imagine it has something to do with the immortality clause, or threat of losing the key if Zahard dies. They can't literally or they can't figuratively kill Zahard, irrespective of whether stronger than him or not. Baam will have the ability to overrule the contract AND find the key.

For instance, in Bleach Isshin was way stronger than Ichigo for the longest. He was arguably stronger than a base, un-evolved Aizen considering he fought Aizen while he was enhanced with the orb. He couldn't defeat a buffed version of Aizen. Yamamoto was stronger than Bach, and the later had to seal the former to even stand a chance to invade SS. In Naruto, you could say that Minato was stronger than Obito as well, but Obito/Tobi/Madara had the upper hand with Kurama's rampage and Minato had to sacrifice to seal the 9-tails. First Hokage was on par and even beat out Madara, yet Madara survived to be buffed and have to be overcome by MC descendants.

Point is, often 'daddy' IS stronger than the big bad, yet the big bad wins due to plot circumstances or some rare buff that doesn't make the fight 'fair' and must be overcome by the next generation. In this way V could very much be equal to or greater than Z, but unable to defeat him due to Z's alliance of the 10FH or the immortality contract or both.

Best bet is V and arlene was somewhat related to Enryu. I d think Enryu was some kind of major priest for the god they served outside. When arlene went outside and related the horror she had to go through and offered Bam to the God outside. God of outside did 2 things: Revive Bam and sent his priest to remind Zahard that reckoning is coming one day. As the God of outside is immensely powerful I am willing to concede that his main followers ie like Enryu will have powers that surpasses admins in the tower. So when the admin tried to put Enryu down Enryu just smacked it to its place. Also I think Arlene was some kind of priestess of the God of outside. Her clothes reminded me of those that of priestess. Which is why she was confident that if she goes outside her prayers would be heard and the messenger with the thorn would arrive.

I agree that this is seemingly what the story is. I'm sure it's not that straightforward and there's more nuance to it though.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[kkck]

Realistically speaking what little we know does not point towards V being stronger than zahard. Zahard has been consistently noted as the leader of the group and likely the strongest one. And V was said to be by data eduan the one that him and the others (at that stage) would have picked to be king. but that wasn't because of V's strength but rather because V was the one who gave a crap about tower residents. V's claim to kingship among the adventurers has literally nothing to do with his overall strength. V could have been the weakest by far and it would have had exactly zero effect regarding what data eduan said. That said, V being one of the stronger warriors is something that makes sense in general given the context. That said, i don't think we can be certain that we know what V's fighting style was. we know v has the best tension but having the best tension doesn't mean you are the best at anything. And other than that we have seen that V had a needle.... the most generic weapon in the entirety of the series. So the only things we know about V's combat is that he was good at something which isn't specific to any fighting style and a generic weapon.

And of course then arlen.... we know she was good at spells but that tells us even less than what we know about V because as far as we know spells have jack shit to do with shinsoo.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Not really worth responding to, but...

Damn you type too much

I've literally acknowledged as much. Very self-aware, TY.

and look like a 15 year old who just want the MC dad to be strongest than the villain because that is what cliche story does ,

Using precedent of other 'cliches' in manga, this would make absolute sense. Some tropes are cliches. I'm not sure why this upsets you.

nothing suggest that V was stronger than zahard,

Except as a mortal he was able to fend off a dog-pile of epic proportions and live, including an immortal Zahard himself. Only that, lol.

i even doubt he was stronger than arie hon who fought zahard ten times,

Well, that's like, your opinion, man. You do understand this is just my speculation/theory, and I haven't claimed it as fact, no?

also tension and shinsoo mastery have nothing in common,

So being able to compress shinsoo naturally at a very high level, higher than anyone else, has nothing to do with shinsoo mastery? OK.

tensions is just the shinsoo density in one bang but that means nothing when it comes to shinsoo manipulation,

Tension is ONE aspect of shinsoo mastery. We know that Baam has this innate ability (along with others), much like his father. The story kind of makes a big deal about this, just like shinwonryu (either for reinforcing the familial connection, or the strength required for such a feat, or both). We also know that Baam can manipulate many bangs (and likely much more in time, like any irregular can, V included), which may also be inherited. If you can pack the most power into a single bang out of ANYONE EVER in the Tower, then you can more than likely also make many powerful individual bangs.

Nevertheless, per the wiki:

"Externally manipulating Shinsoo to change the environment, to attack an opponent or to carry out other actions, such as flying or levitation, is known as Shinsoo manipulation (신수 조작 (神水 操作), shinsoo jojahk; "divine water manipulation")."

So, by using high density in a bang you are externally manipulating shinsoo to attack an opponent - shinsoo manipulation.

Your argument then basically is 'that shinsoo manipulation has nothing to do with shinsoo manipulation'. Pat yourself on the back now.

also nah V never fought the 10 warriors alone

I said this? (hint: I did not) I thought I was pretty clear how the match-up looked like, given what we were told. The 10FH/Z fought against V and his pregnant, spell-casting wife - along with their supporters (everyone had supporters, nbd). The later 11 leaders were ALL IMMORTAL. V was not. I never once said V fought them single-handedly, but he was certainly outmatched considering that the entire 10FH was included, along with Z (oh, and THEIR supporters), against him, and considering his lack of immortality....

Can you even make an argument against that? Have you acknowledged such a supposed power discrepancy (unless V was, in fact, very powerful to the point of rivaling Zahard himself, possibly)? How can you account for mortal V surviving unless being ridic strong?

lmao, you are ridiculous, you clearly wrote a whole new series in your head anyway i will just stop there because you look moronic and there is no point argueing with you, keep thinking V was the strongest because he mc dad.

I'm open to cogent, respectful rebuttals. However, ad hominems say more about their user than the do about their target. As far as 'argueing' (ESL?) with superior minds such as yourself, I would probably just cower. So, you got me (and my 3 standard deviations from the mean IQ...) there.

Pro tip: MC's parents, particularly paternal, often ARE the strongest in the series in flashbacks, but often lose out due to underhanded means from the antagonist(s) - that is until their progeny comes along and fixes everything for the better. So cliche!

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 21, 2019 ---

admin: it looks like this thread is getting moderated. I'm fine with leaving the responses so I can offer a counter-point. Thanks for the concern.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2019 ---

Realistically speaking what little we know does not point towards V being stronger than zahard.

I'd argue the opposite. Or at least on par. Think Madara vs Hashirama.

Zahard has been consistently noted as the leader of the group and likely the strongest one.

All we know for certain is he's the strongest in the group of 11 (as he beat Arie every time, 10 for 10, one-on-one, and Arie was said to be the strongest of the 10FH... not of the original 13 after Zahard). V was able to survive, as a mortal, against an immortal 11. If he wasn't AT LEAST on Z's scale then he would have been mincemeat before his insurrection even started. Instead of Z killing him, which we undoubtedly know he would if he kills babies, he killed himself. Supposedly.

It's like how it is a big deal that Baam survived a fight against Kallavan. Though Baam had help with stronger allies in the story. Replace Baam with mortal V and Kallavan with immortal Zahard, and the swap which side had the stronger assistance on deck. Baam would have never survived if Evankhell, Karaka, and Yuri were fighting on Kallavan's side. And if he survived such a mismatch then he'd have to be AT LEAST as strong as Kallavan to do so. Add to that fictional scenario that Kallavan is immortal and Baam is not.

And V was said to be by data eduan the one that him and the others (at that stage) would have picked to be king. but that wasn't because of V's strength but rather because V was the one who gave a crap about tower residents.

Are you suggesting Eduan would have preferred a weak king? While not impossible, most people look to powerful, not weak/meek, leaders.

V's claim to kingship among the adventurers has literally nothing to do with his overall strength. V could have been the weakest by far and it would have had exactly zero effect regarding what data eduan said.

Again, the same question. Besides, only a strong king can be a merciful king. Mercy is a strength of character, but also requires positional authority. A weak king, even weaker than Eduan himself?, would not be in the best position to be a ruler and benefactor to the tower.

Using your same logic then Z's claim to kingship has nothing to do with his overall strength (respective to V, the unknown). Maybe he was just more of the type-A personality that wanted it more than V. Z having the strength to back up his desire doesn't mean that V had the same desire, or need to challenge Z directly. Add to the fact that V declined immortality and he probably couldn't step to an immortal Z even IF he out-powered him outright.

That said, V being one of the stronger warriors is something that makes sense in general given the context.

We know the OG13 were all stupid strong compared to any tower resident, so we're really just speculating on the strength of scale of monsters among monsters.

That said, i don't think we can be certain that we know what V's fighting style was. we know v has the best tension but having the best tension doesn't mean you are the best at anything.

I never said this was a confirmation, but it (tension) does require an extremely high, and rare, level of skill of shinsoo control. All irregulars can control many bangs, but V could control the strongest single bang out of all of them. That seems significant.

And other than that we have seen that V had a needle.... the most generic weapon in the entirety of the series.

I jokingly have admitted as much in the OP. I just thought it was something else to note. Nothing in of itself. There is so much other factoids that point to a relationship between V and Enryu. i.e., the focus isn't on the needle. Disregard if you must.

So the only things we know about V's combat is that he was good at something which isn't specific to any fighting style and a generic weapon.

So we agree it's still ambiguous. That certainly doesn't rule out my insanity!

And of course then arlen.... we know she was good at spells but that tells us even less than what we know about V because as far as we know spells have jack shit to do with shinsoo.

Not sure what you're getting at here. I referenced Arlen to bring up her relationship to the MC, his father, and Enryu (there is very much a common thread, and Arlen is interwoven in that thread). I am not insinuating her spells have anything to do with V's powers. Though she could have buffed him. That's well in the purview of spells.

 

[kkck]

I'd argue the opposite. Or at least on par. Think Madara vs Hashirama.

All we know for certain is he's the strongest in the group of 11 (as he beat Arie every time, 10 for 10, one-on-one, and Arie was said to be the strongest of the 10FH... not of the original 13 after Zahard). V was able to survive, as a mortal, against an immortal 11. If he wasn't AT LEAST on Z's scale then he would have been mincemeat before his insurrection even started. Instead of Z killing him, which we undoubtedly know he would if he kills babies, he killed himself. Supposedly.

It's like how it is a big deal that Baam survived a fight against Kallavan. Though Baam had help with stronger allies in the story. Replace Baam with mortal V and Kallavan with immortal Zahard, and the swap which side had the stronger assistance on deck. Baam would have never survived if Evankhell, Karaka, and Yuri were fighting on Kallavan's side. And if he survived such a mismatch then he'd have to be AT LEAST as strong as Kallavan to do so. Add to that fictional scenario that Kallavan is immortal and Baam is not.

Are you suggesting Eduan would have preferred a weak king? While not impossible, most people look to powerful, not weak/meek, leaders.


Again, the same question. Besides, only a strong king can be a merciful king. Mercy is a strength of character, but also requires positional authority. A weak king, even weaker than Eduan himself?, would not be in the best position to be a ruler and benefactor to the tower.

Using your same logic then Z's claim to kingship has nothing to do with his overall strength (respective to V, the unknown). Maybe he was just more of the type-A personality that wanted it more than V. Z having the strength to back up his desire doesn't mean that V had the same desire, or need to challenge Z directly. Add to the fact that V declined immortality and he probably couldn't step to an immortal Z even IF he out-powered him outright.


We know the OG13 were all stupid strong compared to any tower resident, so we're really just speculating on the strength of scale of monsters among monsters.


I never said this was a confirmation, but it (tension) does require an extremely high, and rare, level of skill of shinsoo control. All irregulars can control many bangs, but V could control the strongest single bang out of all of them. That seems significant.


I jokingly have admitted as much in the OP. I just thought it was something else to note. Nothing in of itself. There is so much other factoids that point to a relationship between V and Enryu. i.e., the focus isn't on the needle. Disregard if you must.


So we agree it's still ambiguous. That certainly doesn't rule out my insanity!


Not sure what you're getting at here. I referenced Arlen to bring up her relationship to the MC, his father, and Enryu (there is very much a common thread, and Arlen is interwoven in that thread). I am not insinuating her spells have anything to do with V's powers. Though she could have buffed him. That's well in the purview of spells.

Based on what we know, there is literally nothing there that suggest the parallel is anything like that. Add to that, hashirama was clearly more powerful than madara hence why hashimara kicked madara's kyubi riding ass. So the comparison does not work even on that level...

you are making a lot of assumptions regarding how the fight would have played out. This wasn't an internal conflict solved via v and zahard arm wrestling. This was a full scale war... So even if the family heads were the big guns around, this is a conflict that still involved armies and a number of other strong people.

I think that question (bold part) misses the point of what is going on. When eduan was explaining the past to bam he made the point that as he and his companions continued to climb they cared less and less about tower residents. And when gustang talked at the hidden floor he was pretty damn clear of how he felt about tower residents. With those things in mind, it doesn't really look like being king is all that important to the family heads. they just don't care about tower residents. And of course as far as we know zahard does not give a crap about tower residents, he in turn has some other goal which he hopes to achieve with the help of his kingship. From the family heads perspective being king is basically equivalent to being king of the maggots. Being king itself is probably neither a goal nor all that important. the kingship is just a means to an end. V was probably the only one nice, dumb or naive enough to see any value in being king of the maggots.

I just wanted to note that bit about arlen's combat. Nothing special or relevant about that.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Based on what we know, there is literally nothing there that suggest the parallel is anything like that. Add to that, hashirama was clearly more powerful than madara hence why hashimara kicked madara's kyubi riding ass. So the comparison does not work even on that level...

you are making a lot of assumptions regarding how the fight would have played out. This wasn't an internal conflict solved via v and zahard arm wrestling. This was a full scale war... So even if the family heads were the big guns around, this is a conflict that still involved armies and a number of other strong people.

I think that question (bold part) misses the point of what is going on. When eduan was explaining the past to bam he made the point that as he and his companions continued to climb they cared less and less about tower residents. And when gustang talked at the hidden floor he was pretty damn clear of how he felt about tower residents. With those things in mind, it doesn't really look like being king is all that important to the family heads. they just don't care about tower residents. And of course as far as we know zahard does not give a crap about tower residents, he in turn has some other goal which he hopes to achieve with the help of his kingship. From the family heads perspective being king is basically equivalent to being king of the maggots. Being king itself is probably neither a goal nor all that important. the kingship is just a means to an end. V was probably the only one nice, dumb or naive enough to see any value in being king of the maggots.

I just wanted to note that bit about arlen's combat. Nothing special or relevant about that.

Hashirama barely earned a win. Ultimately, he died and Madara lived on. The Naruto series routinely compared the first hokage and Madara as being rivals - same as Asura vs Indra or Naruto vs Sasuke. It's a VERY CLOSE comparison and rivalry that happened again and again in-universe and this is literally a theme of the series. It's very much safe to compare the two. Each only really even acknowledged the other as a true rival. Not sure why you're contesting this of all things, but I digress.

I'm not making any assumptions. I listed the two sides. Based on what we've been told. V as mortal. He had his pregnant wife by his side and their supporters. That's it. Even Luslec doesn't compare to the majority of the 10FH, all immortal btw, which fought against them. This was a war between companions - the 13. 2 versus 11. One on the weaker side was mortal. Zahard had all the 10FH on his side. Yet V lived, unscathed.

What am I assuming? These are facts as presented.

Either V and Arlen thought they stood a chance to defeat Zahard and/or liberate the key, or they were just both crazy. I'm giving them a benefit of the doubt that they thought they were strong enough to oppose Zahard and his forces. Again, unless they were both just nuts, this implies they had reason to feel qualified to oppose Zahard. If V was knowingly weaker than Zahard, and mortal, he'd just be suicidal to take him on. Suicidal V, lol.

Luslec is the most powerful entity that followed V that we know of. He ranks higher than a few family heads. However, to our knowledge even he can't compete as they 10FH are all immortal, and he is seemingly not. (hence, supporters/companions in this scenario matters very little: Z+10FH undoubtedly had strong companions as well).

Also, Luslec, arguably stronger than a few FH's based on rank, served under V. This would obviously mean V was stronger than Luslec and those FHs he beats in rank (at LEAST), and perhaps other FH's. This heavily supports V being pretty damn strong - stronger than his subordinate that outranks at least a couple 10FH. With this fact alone we know that V wasn't at the bottom of the totem pole.

I have admitted we don't know the scale of such a war, but it was spearheaded by and a rift between the 13 original climbers, and those are the ones that obviously make a difference in the war as leaders and movers/shakers.

Would you suggest Zahard being on one side doesn't matter because it's a war? Or Kallavan? Of course not - those types can obliterate entire armies. In the end it really is just a battle between the strongest on each side.

I'm not sure why it keeps getting suggested that V fought people one-on-one (Z) or one-versus-all directly (10FH all at once) while the rest of the army stood still by my posts. That is a straw man as I never said or implied that. However, he very clearly lead the one faction against the other, and as it was his and Arlen's beef he obviously participated at some level. I highly doubt the leaders all just sat on their hands when it was their conflict to begin with.

The issue at stake is that Zahard himself is on the other side. Even if you discount the 10FH, the supporters, and the immortality contract, V had to - in some manner - face off against Zahard in battle (Zahard could single-handedly wipe out a bunch of mortal regulars then face V in combat). Now, add all that high-level aid/immortality back into the equation. This war SHOULD have been completely one-sided if V was notably weaker than Zahard, yet they pressed on knowing Z's strength. V, the leader, a mortal, should have been deaded (in battle or after - or, hell, before) for his part in an insurrection. Particularly as he was a mortal facing such powerhouses. Yet he lived. None of this is notable? Baby-murdering Zahard spared V out of compassion? Was inept in killing him?

Put another way - could current (mortal?) Baam survive against Z and the 10FH, even with an army (Z would have an army too) in a direct confrontation? No, he'd be a stain on the floor's ground level. Why? Because he's notably weaker. The only way he could survive such an encounter, even without securing a win, would be Baam would have to be strong enough to live. He'd have to be so strong he could take any one of them on by himself, and live if 2 or more combined efforts against him. "Winning" such a conflict would be surviving with your life. So while V and Arlen lost the war itself, they in effect still won as they were able to live and walk away.

Put one more way - if me and my 'crew' fought Iron Mike Tyson in his heyday, along with 10 other heavyweight hall of famers, we'd all be dismantled. I wouldn't survive it no matter the size of my crew. Rest assured Mike would have his crew as well. It'd be like me versus a bunch of neonates. Now, if I were Holyfield and had a Cassius Clay or Foreman by my side maybe I'd have a chance to live if Tyson directed his fists my way. Now, just add to this insanity the idea that Tyson is literally immortal and trying to kill me, not box. Pardon the analogy, it's not the most hashed out...

What you say re: 'king of the maggots' only makes sense if you discount the fact that the king reigns over the 10FH as well. I can't see any scenario where Eduan would want a king weaker than himself. If he valued benevolence and was stronger than V he'd thought he would be an appropriate king then. On one hand you argue Zahard is king because he is the strongest of the 10FH then on the other hand you argue that Eduan would want a weaker king due to V being a nice guy. Eduan was suggesting a person he'd de facto subordinate himself to due to his personality, and most likely his strength as well. He wasn't saying 'V is such a nice guy, weakling, but nice. He'd make a great king over myself and the tower.' The 10FH still exist under the kingship as well. What makes MUCH more sense is that Eduan recognized the strength of both V and Z, but there can only be one king. And V would have been a more magnanimous ruler. Yet Zahard took the prize. The 10FH couldn't oppose him. And a mortal without the 10FH behind him couldn't either, irrespective of V's strength. But V would only have a chance in hell against such odds (and initiate such a conflict) if he deemed he had the power to cash the check he wrote when he declared war on Zahard.

Either way, Thank You for your respectful, coherent, cogent, mature response even though we differ in opinion! (some users could take note...)

 

[kkck]

Hashirama barely earned a win. Ultimately, he died and Madara lived on. The Naruto series routinely compared the first hokage and Madara as being rivals - same as Asura vs Indra or Naruto vs Sasuke. It's a VERY CLOSE comparison and rivalry that happened again and again in-universe and this is literally a theme of the series. It's very much safe to compare the two. Each only really even acknowledged the other as a true rival. Not sure why you're contesting this of all things, but I digress.

I'm not making any assumptions. I listed the two sides. Based on what we've been told. V as mortal. He had his pregnant wife by his side and their supporters. That's it. Even Luslec doesn't compare to the majority of the 10FH, all immortal btw, which fought against them. This was a war between companions - the 13. 2 versus 11. One on the weaker side was mortal. Zahard had all the 10FH on his side. Yet V lived, unscathed.

What am I assuming? These are facts as presented.

Either V and Arlen thought they stood a chance to defeat Zahard and/or liberate the key, or they were just both crazy. I'm giving them a benefit of the doubt that they thought they were strong enough to oppose Zahard and his forces. Again, unless they were both just nuts, this implies they had reason to feel qualified to oppose Zahard. If V was knowingly weaker than Zahard, and mortal, he'd just be suicidal to take him on. Suicidal V, lol.

Luslec is the most powerful entity that followed V that we know of. He ranks higher than a few family heads. However, to our knowledge even he can't compete as they 10FH are all immortal, and he is seemingly not. (hence, supporters/companions in this scenario matters very little: Z+10FH undoubtedly had strong companions as well).

Also, Luslec, arguably stronger than a few FH's based on rank, served under V. This would obviously mean V was stronger than Luslec and those FHs he beats in rank (at LEAST), and perhaps other FH's. This heavily supports V being pretty damn strong - stronger than his subordinate that outranks at least a couple 10FH. With this fact alone we know that V wasn't at the bottom of the totem pole.

I have admitted we don't know the scale of such a war, but it was spearheaded by and a rift between the 13 original climbers, and those are the ones that obviously make a difference in the war as leaders and movers/shakers.

Would you suggest Zahard being on one side doesn't matter because it's a war? Or Kallavan? Of course not - those types can obliterate entire armies. In the end it really is just a battle between the strongest on each side.

I'm not sure why it keeps getting suggested that V fought people one-on-one (Z) or one-versus-all directly (10FH all at once) while the rest of the army stood still by my posts. That is a straw man as I never said or implied that. However, he very clearly lead the one faction against the other, and as it was his and Arlen's beef he obviously participated at some level. I highly doubt the leaders all just sat on their hands when it was their conflict to begin with.

The issue at stake is that Zahard himself is on the other side. Even if you discount the 10FH, the supporters, and the immortality contract, V had to - in some manner - face off against Zahard in battle (Zahard could single-handedly wipe out a bunch of mortal regulars then face V in combat). Now, add all that high-level aid/immortality back into the equation. This war SHOULD have been completely one-sided if V was notably weaker than Zahard, yet they pressed on knowing Z's strength. V, the leader, a mortal, should have been deaded (in battle or after - or, hell, before) for his part in an insurrection. Particularly as he was a mortal facing such powerhouses. Yet he lived. None of this is notable? Baby-murdering Zahard spared V out of compassion? Was inept in killing him?

Put another way - could current (mortal?) Baam survive against Z and the 10FH, even with an army (Z would have an army too) in a direct confrontation? No, he'd be a stain on the floor's ground level. Why? Because he's notably weaker. The only way he could survive such an encounter, even without securing a win, would be Baam would have to be strong enough to live. He'd have to be so strong he could take any one of them on by himself, and live if 2 or more combined efforts against him. "Winning" such a conflict would be surviving with your life. So while V and Arlen lost the war itself, they in effect still won as they were able to live and walk away.

Put one more way - if me and my 'crew' fought Iron Mike Tyson in his heyday, along with 10 other heavyweight hall of famers, we'd all be dismantled. I wouldn't survive it no matter the size of my crew. Rest assured Mike would have his crew as well. It'd be like me versus a bunch of neonates. Now, if I were Holyfield and had a Cassius Clay or Foreman by my side maybe I'd have a chance to live if Tyson directed his fists my way. Now, just add to this insanity the idea that Tyson is literally immortal and trying to kill me, not box. Pardon the analogy, it's not the most hashed out...

What you say re: 'king of the maggots' only makes sense if you discount the fact that the king reigns over the 10FH as well. I can't see any scenario where Eduan would want a king weaker than himself. If he valued benevolence and was stronger than V he'd thought he would be an appropriate king then. On one hand you argue Zahard is king because he is the strongest of the 10FH then on the other hand you argue that Eduan would want a weaker king due to V being a nice guy. Eduan was suggesting a person he'd de facto subordinate himself to due to his personality, and most likely his strength as well. He wasn't saying 'V is such a nice guy, weakling, but nice. He'd make a great king over myself and the tower.' The 10FH still exist under the kingship as well. What makes MUCH more sense is that Eduan recognized the strength of both V and Z, but there can only be one king. And V would have been a more magnanimous ruler. Yet Zahard took the prize. The 10FH couldn't oppose him. And a mortal without the 10FH behind him couldn't either, irrespective of V's strength. But V would only have a chance in hell against such odds (and initiate such a conflict) if he deemed he had the power to cash the check he wrote when he declared war on Zahard.

Either way, Thank You for your respectful, coherent, cogent, mature response even though we differ in opinion! (some users could take note...)

Madara went to that fight riding an actual force of nature because otherwise he would have been handed his ass. Which IIRC was more or less the situation the previous time they fought when hashirama spared his weak ass and asked him to start the village. What you are proposing is that V was as strong or stronger than zahard, which is exactly not the dynamic that existed between hashirama and madara (madara was probably stronger after he got the rinnengan though).

Your assumptions are regarding how a full escale war that as far as we know involved pretty much the entire tower played out. This wasn't a dick measuring contest between zahard and V, it was a war that involved a crapton more people. We just don't know how these two sides fought against each other or why V even thought this was worth doing. You are assuming that V held his own against an immortal ass zahard because V lived long enough to kill himself. And those are gigantic assumptions. for all we know they didn't even meet during the war and this ended when V's forces were decimated by zahard's forces. granted there is a chance literally all of this happened but still, assumptions. You are basing your theory on your theory of how the war played out. The war could have lasted anywhere between a few years and eons.


We just saw that gustang openly opposed zahard's empire to the point where it was a declaration of war. If zahard was gustang's king then you'd think that wouldn't happen. Also, at no point did eduan even vaguely suggest he'd subordinate himself to v. He only made the point that V was likely the most qualified to be king because he gave a non negative amount of fucks about the people in the tower. Only hon has been said to be straight up subordinate to zahard and even then that's not the same thing as him regarding zahard as his king. Overall, given eduan's and gustang's reaction to the people in the tower i don't think they value the kingship or the empire all that much. Its just means to an end. Zahard is king of the maggots because it serves his purposes and probably that of the other family heads. Zahard is king of the tower but that doesn't mean the kingship defines the relationship between zahard and the family heads. much like how it doesn't define the relationship between urek and zahard. If the tower is regarded as a tiny fishbowl where irregulars are whales too large for it then I seriously can't see how being king of the fishbowl is that big a deal for the whales.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Madara went to that fight riding an actual force of nature because otherwise he would have been handed his ass. Which IIRC was more or less the situation the previous time they fought when hashirama spared his weak ass and asked him to start the village. What you are proposing is that V was as strong or stronger than zahard, which is exactly not the dynamic that existed between hashirama and madara (madara was probably stronger after he got the rinnengan though).

Reincarnation

Reincarnation (転生, Tensei) is a process through which the chakra and soul of a deceased individual are reborn in a new living vessel, referred to as a "reincarnate" (転生者, tenseisha).[1][2] For a millennium after their deaths, the chakra and souls of the sons of the Sage of Six Paths, Indra and...

naruto.fandom.com

Madara vs Hashirama is literally the rivalry that has been passed down through millennium after the initial rivalry in the Narutoverse. This is decided fact. That Madara COULD control Kurama was his innate strength. Hashirama had body/nature and Madara had the power of the eyes - these strengths manifested differently and the rivalry was extremely close in each iteration. They are very close in power levels when considering the gifts and unique strengths. Arguing that Madara couldn't face Hashirama without Kurama is the same as arguing that the First couldn't face Madara without sage powers. You are at the point of calling Madara 'weak' so I'm almost inclined to disregard everything else you say lol.

Your assumptions are regarding how a full escale war that as far as we know involved pretty much the entire tower played out.

No, I've repeatedly acknowledged they both had their respective supporters/armies. Alternatively, it could have been a small number of supporters on each side that participated. We don't know. But the ones that matter are the leaders. That's always been the case.

This wasn't a dick measuring contest between zahard and V, it was a war that involved a crapton more people.

Do you know how many, or how strong they were? Regardless, they weren't on Zahard's level, and Zahard had to fight on one side, and that's significant. Either way, the primary opposed was V/Arlen and Zahard (and later 10FH). The contention was between the original irregulars even if it later involved the tower on a larger scale. It actually WAS something closer to a dick-measuring contest as it was a difference of opinions on whether to keep climbing or not, and who could get access to the key. That it extended to underlings is incidental.

We just don't know how these two sides fought against each other or why V even thought this was worth doing.

On this we agree. But it was said to oppose Zahard's stopping the climb and secure the key. If V didn't think it was possible...

You are assuming that V held his own against an immortal ass zahard because V lived long enough to kill himself.

That's a simple fact as presented. Those two were the primary opposed. V lived.

And those are gigantic assumptions. for all we know they didn't even meet during the war and this ended when V's forces were decimated by zahard's forces. granted there is a chance literally all of this happened but still, assumptions. You are basing your theory on your theory of how the war played out. The war could have lasted anywhere between a few years and eons.

An assumption would be a statement like "V for a fact fought Zahard one on one and kicked his ass, then ran." (something we don't know) I haven't made a statement on how the war went down - only the fallout of the war. But it is a fact this war was due to a difference of opinions in the 13 original climbers - it is THEIR battle. Sure, they could have all sat on their hands and let their pawns go at it over their disagreement. Sure.

Regardless, I'm not basing my theory on an assumption/statement I haven't made. I've accounted for the possibility that if V survived he could have gotten stronger by a variety of measures. V being strong than Z (I think they are closer to equals) isn't the lynchpin in my theory and isn't the hill I'm dying on. Because V could still live on, and even come back as Enryu, even if he were simply (initially) weaker than Zahard.

This isn't a 'V has always been stronger than Zahard' thread.

We just saw that gustang openly opposed zahard's empire to the point where it was a declaration of war.

And Gustang didn't do this in a vacuum, did he? He did it after securing important items used to fight Zahard, have an irregular 'pawn' in Rachel, confirm Baam's growth/direction (he said he was "waiting for him" no different than FUG), and see how momentum against Zahard had grown. He hadn't made a move in thousands of years for a reason. Why would he need to oppose Zahard if he wasn't under his thumb? It's not called the Po Bidau Empire.

If zahard was gustang's king then you'd think that wouldn't happen.

He's literally his king. He might not like it, but he's his king. Also, Gustang aligned with Zahard in the conflict with V. He coordinated the princess program with Zahard's blessing/blood.

It's like those idiots with "not my president" stickers. I completely get not liking Trump for tons of reasons, but he's still the president - regardless of what your sticker says. I'm in the US, so you might be unfamiliar with this phenomenon.

Also, at no point did eduan even vaguely suggest he'd subordinate himself to v.

Are you somehow suggesting Zahard isn't king over the 10FH? That's exactly what Eduan would be doing by supporting a king over himself.

He only made the point that V was likely the most qualified to be king because he gave a non negative amount of fucks about the people in the tower.

Er, yeah, so he'd had preferred HIS KING over the Tower to be V over Zahard. ... Still, a king over Eduan.

Only hon has been said to be straight up subordinate to zahard and even then that's not the same thing as him regarding zahard as his king.

You seem to be suggesting the 10FH didn't/don't understand Zahard is the(ir) defacto leader and king of the tower (that they reside in and seemingly cannot leave). Arie only decided to follow Zahard because he could not best him. Others followed him for other reasons presumably. Regardless, they all are subordinate to Zahard, period. Most even work with Zahard to create princesses for him. All are below him in rank and authority.

Overall, given eduan's and gustang's reaction to the people in the tower i don't think they value the kingship or the empire all that much.

Not valuing your ruler isn't the same as not being ruled by your ruler. Do the 10FH have Zahard's secondary contract? Princess program? Looking down on regulars in no way means they don't accept Zahard as their ruler. In fact, Gustang only respects those at the level of the original irregular 13 (and, sort of, Urek too). Eduan obviously changed from data floor. He's now a Zahard empire supporter. Gustang might not like it, but he has grinned and bared it all this time. Otherwise he would have made his intentions clear thousands of years prior. It is BECAUSE he formerly didn't have the means to oppose Zahard that he's kept his mouth shut. Gustang NOW making claims against Zahard underscores the fact that he's been under his rule all this time lol. The fact that he'd feel the NEED to declare war in the first place implies he's not as independent as you claim, otherwise such an act wouldn't be significant.

Its just means to an end. Zahard is king of the maggots because it serves his purposes and probably that of the other family heads. Zahard is king of the tower but that doesn't mean the kingship defines the relationship between zahard and the family heads.

Zahard was the leader of the 13 climbers before he was the king. You even made a big deal out of this bc you suggest he took leadership role because no one was strong enough to oppose him, not even V. He then becomes their king. Whether they hated this thought, didn't care much, or cheered it on matters not. All the 10FH decided to stop climbing alongside Zahard, and took the immortality contract with him on 100th. They're in the same boat as Zahard, have historically been on the same page, coordinate princesses, exist in the same tower, etc etc.

much like how it doesn't define the relationship between urek and zahard.

Now you're comparing apples to oranges. Urek isn't bound by the types of contracts the original climbers are. He didn't climb with them or have their history. He didn't side with Zahard in a war. He didn't elect (?) Zahard as their leader.

If the tower is regarded as a tiny fishbowl where irregulars are whales too large for it then I seriously can't see how being king of the fishbowl is that big a deal for the whales.

The 'whales' are still, stuck, in that very fishbowl, no?

 

[kkck]

Reincarnation

Reincarnation (転生, Tensei) is a process through which the chakra and soul of a deceased individual are reborn in a new living vessel, referred to as a "reincarnate" (転生者, tenseisha).[1][2] For a millennium after their deaths, the chakra and souls of the sons of the Sage of Six Paths, Indra and...

naruto.fandom.com

Madara vs Hashirama is literally the rivalry that has been passed down through millennium after the initial rivalry in the Narutoverse. This is decided fact. That Madara COULD control Kurama was his innate strength. Hashirama had body/nature and Madara had the power of the eyes - these strengths manifested differently and the rivalry was extremely close in each iteration. They are very close in power levels when considering the gifts and unique strengths. Arguing that Madara couldn't face Hashirama without Kurama is the same as arguing that the First couldn't face Madara without sage powers. You are at the point of calling Madara 'weak' so I'm almost inclined to disregard everything else you say lol.


No, I've repeatedly acknowledged they both had their respective supporters/armies. Alternatively, it could have been a small number of supporters on each side that participated. We don't know. But the ones that matter are the leaders. That's always been the case.


Do you know how many, or how strong they were? Regardless, they weren't on Zahard's level, and Zahard had to fight on one side, and that's significant. Either way, the primary opposed was V/Arlen and Zahard (and later 10FH). The contention was between the original irregulars even if it later involved the tower on a larger scale. It actually WAS something closer to a dick-measuring contest as it was a difference of opinions on whether to keep climbing or not, and who could get access to the key. That it extended to underlings is incidental.

On this we agree. But it was said to oppose Zahard's stopping the climb and secure the key. If V didn't think it was possible...

That's a simple fact as presented. Those two were the primary opposed. V lived.


An assumption would be a statement like "V for a fact fought Zahard one on one and kicked his ass, then ran." (something we don't know) I haven't made a statement on how the war went down - only the fallout of the war. But it is a fact this war was due to a difference of opinions in the 13 original climbers - it is THEIR battle. Sure, they could have all sat on their hands and let their pawns go at it over their disagreement. Sure.

Regardless, I'm not basing my theory on an assumption/statement I haven't made. I've accounted for the possibility that if V survived he could have gotten stronger by a variety of measures. V being strong than Z (I think they are closer to equals) isn't the lynchpin in my theory and isn't the hill I'm dying on. Because V could still live on, and even come back as Enryu, even if he were simply (initially) weaker than Zahard.

This isn't a 'V has always been stronger than Zahard' thread.


And Gustang didn't do this in a vacuum, did he? He did it after securing important items used to fight Zahard, have an irregular 'pawn' in Rachel, confirm Baam's growth/direction (he said he was "waiting for him" no different than FUG), and see how momentum against Zahard had grown. He hadn't made a move in thousands of years for a reason. Why would he need to oppose Zahard if he wasn't under his thumb? It's not called the Po Bidau Empire.


He's literally his king. He might not like it, but he's his king. Also, Gustang aligned with Zahard in the conflict with V. He coordinated the princess program with Zahard's blessing/blood.

It's like those idiots with "not my president" stickers. I completely get not liking Trump for tons of reasons, but he's still the president - regardless of what your sticker says. I'm in the US, so you might be unfamiliar with this phenomenon.


Are you somehow suggesting Zahard isn't king over the 10FH? That's exactly what Eduan would be doing by supporting a king over himself.


Er, yeah, so he'd had preferred HIS KING over the Tower to be V over Zahard. ... Still, a king over Eduan.


You seem to be suggesting the 10FH didn't/don't understand Zahard is the(ir) defacto leader and king of the tower (that they reside in and seemingly cannot leave). Arie only decided to follow Zahard because he could not best him. Others followed him for other reasons presumably. Regardless, they all are subordinate to Zahard, period. Most even work with Zahard to create princesses for him. All are below him in rank and authority.


Not valuing your ruler isn't the same as not being ruled by your ruler. Do the 10FH have Zahard's secondary contract? Princess program? Looking down on regulars in no way means they don't accept Zahard as their ruler. In fact, Gustang only respects those at the level of the original irregular 13 (and, sort of, Urek too). Eduan obviously changed from data floor. He's now a Zahard empire supporter. Gustang might not like it, but he has grinned and bared it all this time. Otherwise he would have made his intentions clear thousands of years prior. It is BECAUSE he formerly didn't have the means to oppose Zahard that he's kept his mouth shut. Gustang NOW making claims against Zahard underscores the fact that he's been under his rule all this time lol. The fact that he'd feel the NEED to declare war in the first place implies he's not as independent as you claim, otherwise such an act wouldn't be significant.

Zahard was the leader of the 13 climbers before he was the king. You even made a big deal out of this bc you suggest he took leadership role because no one was strong enough to oppose him, not even V. He then becomes their king. Whether they hated this thought, didn't care much, or cheered it on matters not. All the 10FH decided to stop climbing alongside Zahard, and took the immortality contract with him on 100th. They're in the same boat as Zahard, have historically been on the same page, coordinate princesses, exist in the same tower, etc etc.


Now you're comparing apples to oranges. Urek isn't bound by the types of contracts the original climbers are. He didn't climb with them or have their history. He didn't side with Zahard in a war. He didn't elect (?) Zahard as their leader.


The 'whales' are still, stuck, in that very fishbowl, no?

Ah, definitely, the madara hashirama rivalry was inherited and everything. but its extremely clear in the series that hashirama was the stronger one, and with a good margin at that. And come on, sage powers aren't the same as bringing the kyubi to a fight. In no way was the kyubi part of madara's skillset. It was just a slave madara brought to the battle. madara needed the kyubi to fight hashirama on even ground...

Well, yeah, there are a number of possibilities. But the theory you are proposing still comes with a number of assumptions regarding how crucial aspects of the war played out. Without some pretty specific assumptions on your part regarding how the war played out it would be even harder to make the point that v was as strong or stronger than zahard.

SIU also said gustang was an antagonist to bam. And gustang didn't pretty much declare war or zahard after getting those items. To begin with gustang took a pretty big risk in getting to the floor of death to send bam and rachel to the hidden floor. That's a huge risk gustang was willing to take without having secured any of the stuff you mention.

what does being ruled by zahard even mean to the 10 families? As in, you suppose the family heads would bend over backwards because the king of the fishtank says so? Just for context:

1.- The data versions of the family heads didn't seem to get along all that well. Data gustang was such a massive dick he walked to his death only after giving data eduan the format. As in, something that would give both data and real zahards a gigantic middle finger. Even zahard's data self went against his real self on a whim.

2.- gustang has been working against zahard for potentially eons... he created the floor of death, hid garam and we have evidence that he has some pretty deep connections to fug.

3.- Zahard's power at the hidden floor made the point that he and the real eduan didn't get along.

4.- The princess contest as far as we know was not something zahard wanted. Zahard didn't want a wife, a child or anything as far as we know. And yet gustang helped set up the contest so that zahard may find a wife he doesn't want to have a child he also doesn't want. And of course zahard sabotaged this and that in turn resulted in who knows how many 10 family women getting slaughtered including enne.

so.... to me it it does not look like the family heads are particularly compelled to actually obey zahard. Or to otherwise treat him as their king. Zahard is without a doubt king of the fishbowl and whatnot but to me it looks like following zahard is more of a choice than an obligation for them. Of course, its different for the maggots who see zahard and the family heads as living gods. Kallavan, laughably, sees zahard as omnipotent and we have seen those po bidau family members who seem pretty adamant about gustang being omniscient. Zahard is king of the tower but nothing we know of actually makes the point that the family heads are actually contractually obligated to treat zahard as their king. If that was the case then at a minimum gustang wouldn't be able to declare open war on zahard and eduan likely wouldn't be able to afford not getting along with zahard.

Add to that my earlier point that to the family heads being king to begin with was not all that important. Being king is just a means to an end, not an end in itself.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

SIU also said gustang was an antagonist to bam.

Wrong.

By the way, here's what Bunny said about it:

"Not necessarily villain. How should I put it. He holds dark secret that impacts plot. Which does not confirm him as a villain. More like he's pretty shady. At least in the original line, it does not imply whether he is against Baam or not. Unlike how people come up with theories to explain why gustang is villain"

 

[kkck]

Wrong.

By the way, here's what Bunny said about it:

"Not necessarily villain. How should I put it. He holds dark secret that impacts plot. Which does not confirm him as a villain. More like he's pretty shady. At least in the original line, it does not imply whether he is against Baam or not. Unlike how people come up with theories to explain why gustang is villain"

Here is the blog post quote:

This chapter released a lot of content.And as the first revealed of the 10 Fam,he's a character with extreme influence over the entire story.In the overall narrative,he's a villain as well...He's got a lot of personal history,so be on the look out for that.

 

[Ripcord]

You guys are really off the rails

I think there are some facts about this:
V had incredible tension
V had leadership and some battle ability
V and Arlene tried to rebel against Zahard but “lost”

Speculation:
V and Arlene were stronger than many other warriors, which is why they are considered “equals” with the family leaders and climbed together.

V and Arlene may not have conventionally lost to Zahard but perhaps their respective poker hand was outplayed. Zahard at least made it look like he won over the tower and V’s faction went into hiding to fight another day. This could be because Zahard really was outright stronger or it could be that Zahard’s contracts are so hax no one could beat him anymore.

While V being Enryu would be an intriguing twist, I don’t see any evidence for this. Foremost Enryu looks kinda young. Second, if floral butterfly is V’s technique, he seems to be a very “up close and personal” kind of fighter. Enryu is something else entirely.

Lastly, Enryu likely fragmented himself into his power (the thorn), his soul (the Red Light) and his body (Hockney), all things left on the FoD. Just look at Hockney’s ears and nose... not to mention his hair drained of color. I can’t see where else Hockney fits in all this.

Anyway, V is V and that’s it IMO. I don’t think a secret identity makes sense for him.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 22, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 22, 2019 ---

Here is the blog post quote:

This chapter released a lot of content.And as the first revealed of the 10 Fam,he's a character with extreme influence over the entire story.In the overall narrative,he's a villain as well...He's got a lot of personal history,so be on the look out for that.

Right that’s the best translation of the blog post but as we’ve seen the translations can be murky sometimes. Bunny’s comments as the translator add some dimension to SIU’s words.

 

[kkck]

Right that’s the best translation of the blog post but as we’ve seen the translations can be murky sometimes. Bunny’s comments as the translator add some dimension to SIU’s words.

But... are there comments? I am down for a better translation of everything.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Here is the blog post quote:

This chapter released a lot of content.And as the first revealed of the 10 Fam,he's a character with extreme influence over the entire story.In the overall narrative,he's a villain as well...He's got a lot of personal history,so be on the look out for that.

The quote gives the wrong idea. That's the point of Bunny fixing it.

All you need to understand is SIU never said that Gustang is an antagonist to Baam. Bunny found it relevant to talk about this detail because a lot of people started to theorize about why Gustang is an antagonist, etc.

But... are there comments? I am down for a better translation of everything.

This info is old, Bunny was still active in the Discord. Bunny is the most reliable person the community has (or had). She fixed several other things that have been lost in translations, such as the fact that Yurin's twins are women.

 

[Ripcord]

But... are there comments? I am down for a better translation of everything.

Yes. Bunny usually posts comments about blog translations. Or well there used to be. Bunny quit last year. The current translator sometimes adds commentary afterwards