One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

Doesn't Zoro actually have to have good defense because swords can actually kill? If his defense wasn't good, then Zoro would be dead by now with the amount of swordsmen he goes up against. Luffy doesn't care as much about defense while Sanji's defense usually consists of blocking with his legs or dodging. They each have different fighting styles based on what they can and can't do.

 

[TrueRaiKage]

Wow everyone is so passionate about Zoros defense.....

Yes after almost a 1000 chapters and nearly 20 years you cloud name alot of moments where zoro was nothing less than a warrior.

However that would ignoring the countless times he was injured. List those if you want to prove the point wrong.

Zoro defense SUCKS........
EXHIBT A: He lost a damn eye

Come on guys it litterally apart of his character. He gets injured and then he gets serious.

Where is HP when you need him!?!?

 

[XXGenesis]

Doesn't Zoro actually have to have good defense because swords can actually kill? If his defense wasn't good, then Zoro would be dead by now with the amount of swordsmen he goes up against. Luffy doesn't care as much about defense while Sanji's defense usually consists of blocking with his legs or dodging. They each have different fighting styles based on what they can and can't do.

Zoro does have good defense. Because he uses weapons. He has some really good blocking and deflecting feats within the story. His style of fighting offers him the most defense out of the fighters in the crew.

Luffy like you said doesn't care about defense because of fighting style and he can afford the leisure also because of his DF durability. But Luffy still blocks. It's just very basic..Ex Doffy fight.

Sanji, kinda blocks stuff with his foot/legs I would say. I don't consider it blocking most the time, I vsee it as a counter stronger than his opponents attack which therefore stops their attacks or sometimes blocks it..Sanji's style of fighting is mostly dodging. He hasn't or doesn't block attacks well with his foot..
Ex. Wildman, Vergo(*blocking(lol)/counters), Mr.2( block/counters). Sanji is more of a get out of the way fighter than get hit and endure..like Luffy & Zoro do alot..Mostly Zoro

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro does have good defense. Because he uses weapons. He has some really good blocking and deflecting feats within the story. His style of fighting offers him the most defense out of the fighters in the crew.

Luffy like you said doesn't care about defense because of fighting style and he can afford the leisure also because of his DF durability. But Luffy still blocks. It's just very basic..Ex Doffy fight.

Sanji, kinda blocks stuff with his foot/legs I would say. I don't consider it blocking most the time, I vsee it as a counter stronger than his opponents attack which therefore stops their attacks or sometimes blocks it..Sanji's style of fighting is mostly dodging. He hasn't or doesn't block attacks well with his foot..
Ex. Wildman, Vergo(*blocking(lol)/counters), Mr.2( block/counters). Sanji is more of a get out of the way fighter than get hit and endure..like Luffy & Zoro do alot..Mostly Zoro

For the last time. This has nothing to do with sanji and Luffy. The arguement isnt Sanji/Luffy have better defense than Zoro. The arguement is, Does Zoro have good defense?

Personally, I don't. I dont think he has the worst, certainly not the best tho.

Zoro is a tanky character. He can endure massive amount of damage without fainting (Ignore is latest 1 shot for the sake of arguement please) to such a degree that its debatable between Luffy and Zoro, who could endure more. Because of this, Zoro takes damage he otherwise would dodge/block/parry/deflect.

@Niki dont think I could give you a good enough definition of what I consider good defense that would please you. I'm not ignoring you, I just dont think it would change your mind.

I think we can both agree Zoro could defend himself at lot more from damage if he were a defensive minded character, correct?

If Zoro's battle philosophy is "Good defense is a good offense" then I'm fine with it. There is a reason Oda stated Zoro specializes in CoA over CoO. I never said I dont like his fighting style. I love every single one of the SH's fighting styles.

Likewise, like Zoro lacks defense, Luffy lacks offense. Like above, I couldn't give a detailed enough explaination of what I consider "good offense" other than the obvious "Luffy punch harder to hurt harder"

Sanji lacks endurance<---- Needed to throw that in as well.

 

[XXGenesis]

For the last time. This has nothing to do with sanji and Luffy. The arguement isnt Sanji/Luffy have better defense than Zoro. The arguement is, Does Zoro have good defense?

Personally, I don't. I dont think he has the worst, certainly not the best tho.

Zoro is a tanky character. He can endure massive amount of damage without fainting (Ignore is latest 1 shot for the sake of arguement please) to such a degree that its debatable between Luffy and Zoro, who could endure more. Because of this, Zoro takes damage he otherwise would dodge/block/parry/deflect.

@Niki dont think I could give you a good enough definition of what I consider good defense that would please you. I'm not ignoring you, I just dont think it would change your mind.

I think we can both agree Zoro could defend himself at lot more from damage if he were a defensive minded character, correct?

If Zoro's battle philosophy is "Good defense is a good offense" then I'm fine with it. There is a reason Oda stated Zoro specializes in CoA over CoO. I never said I dont like his fighting style. I love every single one of the SH's fighting styles.

Likewise, like Zoro lacks defense, Luffy lacks offense. Like above, I couldn't give a detailed enough explaination of what I consider "good offense" other than the obvious "Luffy punch harder to hurt harder"

Sanji lacks endurance<---- Needed to throw that in as well.

Bro, relax. I didn't write a subjective post. It's objectively all about the different style of fighters and how they range in defensive prowness.

Zoro's defense has to be compared to someone or something; For it to be even judged. So any character is up for reference.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro's defense has to be compared to someone or something; For it to be even judged. So any character is up for reference.

Respectfully, this is incredibly inaccurate. You dont need to compare 2 characters to decide if only 1 is bad at something.

For example: If the arguement is that Big Mom is a bad mother, you dont need to compare her to Nami's mom or Ace's mom, or Sanji's mom. You dont need to compare mom's to decide if Big Mom is a bad mom or not. Just like you dont need to compare Zoro's defense to say whether or not its good/bad...

but apologize if I came off as rude. Not my intent. Hopefully the debate can continue.

 

[Fox666]

Wow everyone is so passionate about Zoros defense.....

Yes after almost a 1000 chapters and nearly 20 years you cloud name alot of moments where zoro was nothing less than a warrior.

However that would ignoring the countless times he was injured. List those if you want to prove the point wrong.

Zoro defense SUCKS........
EXHIBT A: He lost a damn eye

Come on guys it litterally apart of his character. He gets injured and then he gets serious.

Where is HP when you need him!?!?

Is there any way to respond to you that won't degrade in posting countless pages of the manga...?

 

[Kato756]

man yah people never played RPG?

Evasion =/= Defense =/= HP =/=

I´d classify them both something along the lines of:

Luffy:
HP - 130
STA- 200
DEF - 60 (in the new, since haki negates his rubber body. Sure he can haki up too, but that makes it harder, not bouncy unless its G4)
EVAS - 60

Zoro

HP- 150
STA- 150
DEF- 70
EVAS- 20


---

I´d say that Zoro does seem to have a higher HP overall, as his damage looks more serious than Luffy´s (overall people, people, all fights since the start of the series), It was what allowed him to tank Kuma´s pain buuble on top of his dmg.

But Luffy definetlly has the higher stamina, fighting Katakuri for half a day non-stop, having just undergone serious starvation (sure this is OP and he recovered with a bento + milk to grow that teeth back, its still a feat), and also surviving that poison treatment in impel down.

In terms of flat out defense, I take it that Zoro has it a TINY bit higher than Luffy (No G4), since his speciality IS armement, and Luffy´s greatest claim to defense was having a rubber body (that his regular armament makes harder, which does increase defense but negates his bounciness**).

On Evasion...fuck men, Zoro sucks. He takes hits left and right. Sure, with this willpower and general tankiness is the same as not taking any, but still...
He always tends to get blitzed and take a lot of cuts when he faces a stronger enemy, and even took a hit from Kamazou.
On the other hand, luffy now has future sight. OP


** Im basing this on the fact that Dofflaming was surprised that a Hardening Luffy in G4 was both hard and soft at the same time when he kicked him

--- Double Post Merged, May 26, 2019, Original Post Date: May 26, 2019 ---

Also, in a direct fight, we have to first discuss another thing:


Is Cracker a better swordsman than Zoro?

Since he was able to make a relativelly deep cut in G4 Luffys Arm...

--- Double Post Merged, May 26, 2019 ---

But I think that since OP is a diverse world in terms of ability and we are reaching the highest tier of physical ability, in the end those discussions are going to be about either

"who counters who" or "who hits who first".

Zoro and Luffy at this point are way too close in power (Mountain Busting- Level as per Dressrosa) for we to call anything

--- Double Post Merged, May 26, 2019 ---

ALAS, UNRELATED TO THE ZORO V LUFFY STUFF

(Fun Theory Crafting, nothing too serious)

If Shakky really is Locks/Rocks captain, aka someone who commanded the respect of Kaidou and BM, how much firepower would the marines have to use in order to arrest both her and rayleight at the same time, with both fighting seriously, no holds barred, no mercy?

 

[M3J]

Zoro does have good defense. Because he uses weapons. He has some really good blocking and deflecting feats within the story. His style of fighting offers him the most defense out of the fighters in the crew.

Luffy like you said doesn't care about defense because of fighting style and he can afford the leisure also because of his DF durability. But Luffy still blocks. It's just very basic..Ex Doffy fight.

Sanji, kinda blocks stuff with his foot/legs I would say. I don't consider it blocking most the time, I vsee it as a counter stronger than his opponents attack which therefore stops their attacks or sometimes blocks it..Sanji's style of fighting is mostly dodging. He hasn't or doesn't block attacks well with his foot..
Ex. Wildman, Vergo(*blocking(lol)/counters), Mr.2( block/counters). Sanji is more of a get out of the way fighter than get hit and endure..like Luffy & Zoro do alot..Mostly Zoro

He has to have more than a good defense though, otherwise he'd either be dead by now or unable to continue his swordsman path. Zoro needs to have a great defense because of the types of opponents he goes up against and will go up against.

Isn't that blocking? He stops attacks with his legs.... but Zoro doesn't try to get hit on purpose, does he?

 

[Fox666]

If you want to analyze blocking and evading attacks as different things, then it's a bit more complicated.

NOTE: A 100 represents the average fighter. Devil Fruits aren't included

Attack

Without the Devil Fruit, Luffy would go down on a fist fight similar to Sanji with his kicks. Zoro has the edge over them.

Luffy: 120
Zoro: 140
Sanji: 120

HP

Zoro can continue to fight despite being severely injured. In comparison, whenever Luffy or Sanji are injured, it really hurts them. Luffy would still be a little above the average.

Luffy: 110
Zoro: 160
Sanji: 100

Stamina

Luffy has an inhuman Stamina, overpowering his enemies with sheer will. Both Zoro and Sanji do get tired of fighting.

Luffy: 200
Zoro: 100
Sanji: 100

Defense

Luffy has continuously proven to be quite incompetent when it comes to blocking attacks. Zoro has also failed in several instances. Sanji is ok.

Luffy: 50
Zoro: 80
Sanji: 100

Evasion

Luffy: 10 - 150 - 300
Zoro: -10
Sanji: 160

Pre-timeskip Luffy was used to not evading attacks due to his Devil Fruit. Once he learned Haki, things turned around. Then he mastered a supernatural level of evasion after fighting Katakuri. Sanji is also good with CoO, and combined with his legwork he is also exceptionally good at evading attacks. Zoro is prone to self-injuries.

 

[M3J]

this is silly and dumb.

But Zoro and Sanji have high stamina as well, it takes a lot more to knock them out and keep them down when there's conflict. When have we seen them go down so early? At Thriller Bark they were still standing until the end, and Enel's raikiri wasn't enough to keep both down for too long.

But now that I think about it, fights with Lucci and after involve Luffy doing dangerous things with his body, essentially "doping" by increasing his blood flow and all, and that's not good. So perhaps his stamina used to get drained even more by Gear 2 and 3.

 

[Pirate Queen]

He has to have more than a good defense though, otherwise he'd either be dead by now or unable to continue his swordsman path. Zoro needs to have a great defense because of the types of opponents he goes up against and will go up against.

Isn't that blocking? He stops attacks with his legs.... but Zoro doesn't try to get hit on purpose, does he?

Zoro isnt dead because he has 2 things that make up for a lack of defense.

High tolerance to pain
Insane endurance that debatable rivals his captain

With those 2 things, he doesnt need top tier defense.

 

[M3J]

Again, lack of defense would result in him getting constant cuts and stabs, even against bad swordsmen. He does have defense, that's a fact. What's subjective is how good it is.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Again, lack of defense would result in him getting constant cuts and stabs, even against bad swordsmen. He does have defense, that's a fact. What's subjective is how good it is.

I never said he has 0 defense. I have stated this multiple times. I have stated his defense needs to improve.

By "lacks defense" I mean to say he is deficient when it comes to defense. Not that he has 0 defense. My bad if I used the wrong word. That is the opinion I'm bringing to this discussion

 

[Fox666]

this is silly and dumb.

But Zoro and Sanji have high stamina as well, it takes a lot more to knock them out and keep them down when there's conflict. When have we seen them go down so early? At Thriller Bark they were still standing until the end, and Enel's raikiri wasn't enough to keep both down for too long.

But now that I think about it, fights with Lucci and after involve Luffy doing dangerous things with his body, essentially "doping" by increasing his blood flow and all, and that's not good. So perhaps his stamina used to get drained even more by Gear 2 and 3.

It raises the question of what takes to exhaust them. When the situation was getting really critical, like Zoro fighting Kuma, or Sanji running from the Pacifista, the impression I had is that they can't continue past a certain point... not more than the other Strawhats. They do better because they are stronger, but they get tired like a normal person. Luffy doesn't, he just continue endlessly as seen in Marineford or Whole Cake Island.

 

[M3J]

I never said he has 0 defense. I have stated this multiple times. I have stated his defense needs to improve.

By "lacks defense" I mean to say he is deficient when it comes to defense. Not that he has 0 defense. My bad if I used the wrong word. That is the opinion I'm bringing to this discussion

Oh okay. That makes more sense. Though in a fight against one-sword style swordsman who isn't on a very high level, it would be very weird for Zoro to take hits. At least against someone like Daz, it made sense because he could turn any part of his body into blade or metal.

It raises the question of what takes to exhaust them. When the situation was getting really critical, like Zoro fighting Kuma, or Sanji running from the Pacifista, the impression I had is that they can't continue past a certain point... not more than the other Strawhats. They do better because they are stronger, but they get tired like a normal person. Luffy doesn't, he just continue endlessly as seen in Marineford or Whole Cake Island.

Who knows? These guys have the ability to dig deep inside, extremely deep if they have to, to keep fighting. Luffy does get tired though, he had to take Iva's hormone shot to keep going in Marineford whereas on WCI he conked out after Sanji saved him. They likely can't continue past a certain point though, I agree. Look at how Sanji was knocked out by Zoro's elbow or Zoro's inability to keep fighting Kuma.

I think Luffy's fainted or has been tired out more than any Straw Hat though.

 

[XXGenesis]

When I hear the word defense. I automatically think of blocking. But defense incorporates more than just blocking..

Zoro's strongest defensive move is blocking attacks or deflecting them with his swords. He doesn't dodge to much, but will if its a critical attacks Ex. pacifista & Oz. It's Zoro's prowness of evasion that he isn't stellar. If he'll increase his CoO, we can have him doing some kool matrix moves before a mountain leveling slash

 

[afromarco005]

Zoro's D is ATROCIOUS lol that's not what makes him a beast at all

That's not what Komurasaki said

 

[Pirate Queen]

That's not what Komurasaki said

Okay, you win the debate. Take this "W"

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2019 ---

The ONLY reason I have Kidd > Zoro is because of Kidd's DF. Against

 

[King Moe]

Okay, you win the debate. Take this "W"

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2019 ---

The ONLY reason I have Kidd > Zoro is because of Kidd's DF. Against

Plus he is stronger than he looks as said about him. He is handicapped by seastones, so can't fully evaluate atm, but can once cuffs are off (literally XD).