Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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It raises the question of what takes to exhaust them. When the situation was getting really critical, like Zoro fighting Kuma, or Sanji running from the Pacifista, the impression I had is that they can't continue past a certain point... not more than the other Strawhats. They do better because they are stronger, but they get tired like a normal person. Luffy doesn't, he just continue endlessly as seen in Marineford or Whole Cake Island.
1)Luffy, Zoro & Sanji do continue past a certain point more than the other SH cannot.
2) They are human but not normal humans. Only regular human SH are Nami & Usopp. Everybody else is an superhuman. But even Nami & Usopp show some superhuman feats. Ex.....Sanji got shot while running in WCI. Garp was cut by beginning antagonist. Nothing about the characters endurance or stamina is normal human stuff. That's the difference between them and the rest of the crew.
3) Luffy does seem to have the highest stamina and pain endurance. It's due to 50/50 DF power & natural fighting prowness & spirit. But he's reached his limit 4 times.
1) Magallen vs Luffy. Couldn't endure his poison..(Saved by Ivankov)
2)MarineFord War he's tapped out after All the fighting and bring tossed around.(ivankov again rejuvenated him)
3) physicallyagain tapped out before & after psychologically out of it when Ace died.
4) Blood loss from destroying Noah after his fight with Hordy.
So to answer the question of What it takes to put down put top 3 SH, who all have some killer stamina & endurance is simple. A stronger enemy, challenge, or endeavor that's even bigger than their last. This is where the plot needs to follow continuity...Ex Zoro's stamina & endurance during Thriller Bark...Continuity says a scythe in the shoulder shouldn't K.O the guy...Or Luffy never suffers physical damage because he's rubber yet Rob Lucci, seems to have been able to hurt the guy physically w/O haki. & l8er Moria just as strong or stronfer foe pummels Luffy to have no effect at all.
My favorite Stamina & endurance feat is Dogtooth vs Luffy. Dogtooth was having trouble landing a decisive blow to finish off Luffy. While Luffy kept getting up & barely dodging hoping to land some blows of his own, afyer finding a weakness. After Dogtooth evens the fight by sounding himself Luffy eventually wins with Dogtooth giving up...But as We be seen Luffy was spent right after that
A stronger enemy or bigger endeavor/challenge isn't enough though, they likely got stronger from the challenge. And we've seen them beat superior opponents or at least, we've seen Luffy do that. Seems like it takes overwhelming power like Kaidou or advantage like Magellan to take out any of the Monster Trio.
Or hell, Katakuri. Luffy's apparently alive or won only because Katakuri wanted him to win.
A stronger enemy or bigger endeavor/challenge isn't enough though, they likely got stronger from the challenge. And we've seen them beat superior opponents or at least, we've seen Luffy do that. Seems like it takes overwhelming power like Kaidou or advantage like Magellan to take out any of the Monster Trio.
Or hell, Katakuri. Luffy's apparently alive or won only because Katakuri wanted him to win.
SH vs Moria & co. They fight a Warlord & his pirate crew & as expected they were exhausted, especially the top fighters. In comes another greater treat...Luffy showed his limit there, & Zoro went beyond his limits continuing to fight after everyone else e as K.O. then surviving an impossible predicament.
Luffy & Nami vs Cracker. Luffy fights for hours with assistance. After he ends the fight, he suffers a mild beat down from Sanji, Sanji's full arsenal could barely K.O him..But after all that BM pirates are able to jump him and defeat him. After starving himself he escapes from the jail to struggle against ppl he would almost stomp in full health.
Stan Lee says it the best. Whoever the author wants to win, wins. That being said continuity matters if you want your story to make sense.
PreTS Zoro vs Luffy= Anyone's match
Post TS Zoro vs Luffy= Luffy hands down by evident evidence. Even a Reasonable argument won't hold up to the facts.
They aren't invincible but its a trend of the genre & story that our MC surpass their current limits & odds. But many times, they won't do so after back to back big immediate fights
Can I be a little honest here?
These Luffy, Zorro, Sanji debates are kind of boring to me. It feels like they have been the same since I started with One Piece... which was almost 20 years ago. I guess taking the three most favorite characters and comparing them will never work without bias. I probably have my own bias too, even though power is a nonfactor for my favoritism.
I don't even consider opening the Zoro or Sanji threads, but I would like to discuss powerlevels of some more interesting characters like Sai or Nami, I would like to compare the Donquixote Family with the Big Mom or Beast Pirates, and so on...
SH vs Moria & co. They fight a Warlord & his pirate crew & as expected they were exhausted, especially the top fighters. In comes another greater treat...Luffy showed his limit there, & Zoro went beyond his limits continuing to fight after everyone else e as K.O. then surviving an impossible predicament.
Luffy & Nami vs Cracker. Luffy fights for hours with assistance. After he ends the fight, he suffers a mild beat down from Sanji, Sanji's full arsenal could barely K.O him..But after all that BM pirates are able to jump him and defeat him. After starving himself he escapes from the jail to struggle against ppl he would almost stomp in full health.
Sanji wasn't really trying to kill him though so wouldn't say that was his full power at all. Why would get kill a friend?
Though do agree Luffy does have greater durability and stamina than Zoro as hard to compare it when Zoro didn't stay standing until both enemies were finish. Just went down with Killer and didn't take down the other guy.
SH vs Moria & co. They fight a Warlord & his pirate crew & as expected they were exhausted, especially the top fighters. In comes another greater treat...Luffy showed his limit there, & Zoro went beyond his limits continuing to fight after everyone else e as K.O. then surviving an impossible predicament.
It has already been established that the likes of Zoro, Sanji, and Luffy don't collapse after a big fight unless the precieved threat is defeated. This is backed up by manga and was explained to me a few debates back.
Luffy defeated Moriah, the precieved threat and passed out. Had no idea ANOTHER shichibukai was around or he wouldnt have passed out. So no, Zoro didnt go beyond his limit when everyone else is K.O.'d. Luffy just precieved the threat to be eliminated and had no reason to stay conscious.
It has already been established that the likes of Zoro, Sanji, and Luffy don't collapse after a big fight unless the precieved threat is defeated. This is backed up by manga and was explained to me a few debates back.
Luffy defeated Moriah, the precieved threat and passed out. Had no idea ANOTHER shichibukai was around or he wouldnt have passed out. So no, Zoro didnt go beyond his limit when everyone else is K.O.'d. Luffy just precieved the threat to be eliminated and had no reason to stay conscious.
Lmao so you took me saying your notion was inconsistent by the story to say my arguments lack contexts. Very mature.
Whatever was explained to you is B.S. and sounds like b.s head cannon. Luffy fell to Magellan....He fell again during the war twice!. What plot point in One Piece does it say our heroes will always get up until the threat is defeated no matter the obstacle ...that's seriously dumb, maybe someone was explain Fairy tail to you. Yea that's what they meant
SH vs Moria & co. They fight a Warlord & his pirate crew & as expected they were exhausted, especially the top fighters. In comes another greater treat...Luffy showed his limit there, & Zoro went beyond his limits continuing to fight after everyone else e as K.O. then surviving an impossible predicament.
Luffy in Thriller Back did a whole lot more work than anyone (as he always does). Let's not forget he took in so many shadows (100? Or 1000) that was considered abnormal and impossible to bear for any other person. The only character who surpassed that feat was the owner of the DF himself Moria and we saw the negatives of that when Luffy took him down.
Luffy will always be a tier or more above every other Strawhat... end of the day.
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Who were those saying Kamazo was a nobody? I said it before that Zoro qualified him as strong then he must be strong.
Turns out he's one of the Worst generation Killer. This solidifies Zoro's continuous display of strength and grit.
He won that fight against Kid's right hand - Killer. He might as well be able to duke it out with the captain - Kid.
Zoro is legit powerful without doubt and will stay second strongest of the Strawhats whether by a mile or by a hair (in relation to Sanju).
Lmao so you took me saying your notion was inconsistent by the story to say my arguments lack contexts. Very mature.
Whatever was explained to you is B.S. and sounds like b.s head cannon. Luffy fell to Magellan....He fell again during the war twice!. What plot point in One Piece does it say our heroes will always get up until the threat is defeated no matter the obstacle ...that's seriously dumb, maybe someone was explain Fairy tail to you. Yea that's what they meant
Luffy in Thriller Back did a whole lot more work than anyone (as he always does). Let's not forget he took in so many shadows (100? Or 1000) that was considered abnormal and impossible to bear for any other person. The only character who surpassed that feat was the owner of the DF himself Moria and we saw the negatives of that when Luffy took him down.
Luffy will always be a tier or more above every other Strawhat... end of the day.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Who were those saying Kamazo was a nobody? I said it before that Zoro qualified him as strong then he must be strong.
Turns out he's one of the Worst generation Killer. This solidifies Zoro's continuous display of strength and grit.
He won that fight against Kid's right hand - Killer. He might as well be able to duke it out with the captain - Kid.
Zoro is legit powerful without doubt and will stay second strongest of the Strawhats whether by a mile or by a hair (in relation to Sanju).
I'm not down playing anyone's stamina feat.
The topic is what would it take to take out presumably the strongest of the SH. We've seen them hit their limits, by performing grander feats than in their past.
Zoro surpassed Luffy momentarily in thriller bark with stamina & endurance. Luffy tapped out after absorbing 100 shadows, defeating OZ & Moria himself right after. Zoro already spent energy fighting Ryuuma, fought Oz enduring his attacks, n absorbed the same 100 shadow fatigue plus more.
Also, Kamazo being Killer is kool. But sheesh, Zoro did away with him pretty easy with a substitute 3sword style. Also that hit was by a lack of attention from Zoro...anywhos I personally always wanted these 2 to fight, but Zoro still shouldn't fall to such an injury, showing so much more dominance over his opponent.
1) its not a fact it's a perspective. Therefore its an logical opinion at best.
2) if Ivan helped him go beyond his limit.. that means Luffy hit his stamina limit kid. So much it shorten his lifespan...
3) Like I said twice in the war. Did you forget why Ace died? He protected a empty stamina Luffy.
4) What are you talking about with Magallen?? Luffy decided to stay and fight. He lost. Period, pain limit reached, he wasn't able to move. Needed to be rescued.
Your right mixed you up with MJH, but I'll have to offer you your own words buddy. Dont bring Fairy tail logic over here. It's stupid.
SH vs Moria & co. They fight a Warlord & his pirate crew & as expected they were exhausted, especially the top fighters. In comes another greater treat...Luffy showed his limit there, & Zoro went beyond his limits continuing to fight after everyone else e as K.O. then surviving an impossible predicament.
Luffy & Nami vs Cracker. Luffy fights for hours with assistance. After he ends the fight, he suffers a mild beat down from Sanji, Sanji's full arsenal could barely K.O him..But after all that BM pirates are able to jump him and defeat him. After starving himself he escapes from the jail to struggle against ppl he would almost stomp in full health.
Stan Lee says it the best. Whoever the author wants to win, wins. That being said continuity matters if you want your story to make sense.
PreTS Zoro vs Luffy= Anyone's match
Post TS Zoro vs Luffy= Luffy hands down by evident evidence. Even a Reasonable argument won't hold up to the facts.
They aren't invincible but its a trend of the genre & story that our MC surpass their current limits & odds. But many times, they won't do so after back to back big immediate fights
How? Luffy was knocked out before Kuma appeared, and they had no time to rest. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was talking about in between arcs, like Luffy being pushed past his point against Doflamingo to fighting Cracker and Katakuri. Zoro didn't really go beyond his limits in fighting, he gave up soon after and offered his head instead because he knew he couldn't win in his state. It's extremely rare for the Straw Hats to fight twice in a row against tough opponents and win, and the only instances I can think of is Luffy from Impel Down to Marineford and on WCI. But I think your last sentence shows that we mostly agree???
Luffy wasn't even defending himself against Sanji, and he was exhausted and I believe hungry.
How? Luffy was knocked out before Kuma appeared, and they had no time to rest. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was talking about in between arcs, like Luffy being pushed past his point against Doflamingo to fighting Cracker and Katakuri. Zoro didn't really go beyond his limits in fighting, he gave up soon after and offered his head instead because he knew he couldn't win in his state. It's extremely rare for the Straw Hats to fight twice in a row against tough opponents and win, and the only instances I can think of is Luffy from Impel Down to Marineford and on WCI. But I think your last sentence shows that we mostly agree???
Luffy wasn't even defending himself against Sanji, and he was exhausted and I believe hungry.
& Yes Luffy didn't fight Kuma. But note each adventure provides new and greater obstacles. Incident started to fight strong Pirates like Don Kreig. He was challenged and rise to the occasion. After Lucci he start to encounter real tough guys to which he has to get more creative with his abilities. Same applies to all SH. The ending of the 1st half the Squad' s luck ran out by happening upon an admiral ready to wipe them out, Pacifista, Kuma again, Zoro severely weakened. & Luffy went up against the Navy's Big shots & was lucky enough to survive mostly through a lot of support and creating his own. opportunities.
But Yea, Doffy has shown more stamina than Luffy. His G4 caused him to lose a lot of stamina and needed assistance to stall for 10mins to finish the fight.
After the fight with Cracker & Sanji's assault. Luffy was hungry & was at best 30% imo. Got mobbed on by BM pirates w/o any heavy fighters.
As for the Katakuri fight, Luffy showed us almost plot armourish Endurance & stamina but it was mostly will, imo. Luffy was shown to at best be able to dodge just once after that fight and thats it. While Katakuri seemed to have much more than that.
Then we have Kaidou. LOL.
But as this stage in the story. I doubt Luffy all ever get K.O'd like that again. As for Zoro, he shouldn't have passed out, but w/e its Oda story, I can only be a critic
If the Yonkou are top tier, then Luffy likely shouldn't get one-shot like that again, esp if Kaidou is the strongest. But then again, Luffy was so hilariously outmatched that it could happen again if he doesn't get significantly stronger.
What claim? How long you been reading OP? Oda continue to make them rivals and equal to each other to this day. It's canon fact, not a claim. You can see this by their interactions, competing with each other, their opponents at times, bounties, etc.. There is a lot of proof how Oda sees them together. He never inserts who stronger than who between them. He keeps it constant competition between them.
When things get tough 1st mate faint has always been ready and at the ready to sacrifice his body for the cause. His fights have always been high level oppents on the opposite crew.
When things get tough the cake baker bakes cakes. Which is a shame because he was the cool guy. Now hes the lady traumatized cook with all the coolest upgrades that are also now wasted in uncool ways.
Even in this arc Zoro has one shotted his supernova counterpart. Seems cooler than the cake baker fighting PageOne and that squad of goons while he cooked soba.
In conclusion (this makes me sad) 1st mate faint is stronger or has a higher level of power than the cake baker.
What claim? How long you been reading OP? Oda continue to make them rivals and equal to each other to this day. It's canon fact, not a claim. You can see this by their interactions, competing with each other, their opponents at times, bounties, etc.. There is a lot of proof how Oda sees them together. He never inserts who stronger than who between them. He keeps it constant competition between them.
Competing how? Calling each other names? Acting like they don’t like each other? That about it. feats doesnt suggest that. Zoro from the beginning have shown better feats than Sanji since day 1 Sanji bounty is higher because 1. Zoro wasn’t in big mom arc 2. His family name. Zoros bounty has always consistently has higher than Sanji. Sanji started to show impressive feats in this arc while zoro been doing this since punk hazard sorry pal zoro>Sanji
When things get tough 1st mate faint has always been ready and at the ready to sacrifice his body for the cause. His fights have always been high level oppents on the opposite crew.
When things get tough the cake baker bakes cakes. Which is a shame because he was the cool guy. Now hes the lady traumatized cook with all the coolest upgrades that are also now wasted in uncool ways.
Even in this arc Zoro has one shotted his supernova counterpart. Seems cooler than the cake baker fighting PageOne and that squad of goons while he cooked soba.
In conclusion (this makes me sad) 1st mate faint is stronger or has a higher level of power than the cake baker.
Shock you call Zoro 'faint-man'. Seems like it is rubbing off on you more lol.
So? Sanji is the same as well and faint-man hasn't really face anyone high lvl he defeated. So far he face fodder-like opponents and when he face more serious threats, it turn back against him with Fujitora, Hawkins, and now recently Killer who wasn't even 100% as he was mentally fuck in the mind. Right now Kyoshiro is toying with him and not even using Haki to deflect his attacks that faint-man is using right now in his attacks. Nothing has says faint-man is at the top-tier of all especially his lackluster fighting so far in this arc.
Sanji on other hand have been taking more recent threats and hold his own while defeating prominent ones like Page One with ease. Nothing is wasted or wrong with his character as he been treated right on where he is going. Sanji so far been on cloud nine on his achievements a lot more than faint-man as of late and nothing shows he can do much at all.
You mean Killer who still isn't 100% after being mentally fuck up and also K.O. Faint-Man in return as he faint after one hit? If Killer was 100% and wasn't thinking of mess up things that happen to him, doubt it be like that. All Faint-Man did is defeat an handicap opponent who unlike him has an excuse why he went down, but Faint-Man after his durability feats went down in one hit and that's all it wrote.
So right now in true conclusion, Sanji is over Faint-Man until he can defeat someone actually credible and 100% condition, cause right now he shown nothing he is stronger pair nor even the most 'helpful' within this arc in doing work for others and the plan.
Competing how? Calling each other names? Acting like they don’t like each other? That about it. feats doesnt suggest that. Zoro from the beginning have shown better feats than Sanji since day 1 Sanji bounty is higher because 1. Zoro wasn’t in big mom arc 2. His family name. Zoros bounty has always consistently has higher than Sanji. Sanji started to show impressive feats in this arc while zoro been doing this since punk hazard sorry pal zoro>Sanji
Nah, it's more than that. Only you trying to denied it so hard despite how lately Oda present them together. What day one? Sanji has feats in pre-timeskip compare to his post-timeskip. There was even few times Sanji rescue Zoro when he needed it. Nothing shows Zoro was stronger one even to this point on seeing his performance especially in Wano.
1. You can't say same thing about Sanji not being apart of the crew during early time when it was Luffy, Zoro, Nami, and Usopp. Of course Zoro got bounty earlier than him since he was there earlier, not because he did better feats since he wasn't even there.
2. Name don't carried that deep weight enough to give that big raise especially Morgan and Stussy was watching him fight the BMP in person as you saw them especially Morgan taking pictures of it and hearing over information on what he did. Bounty was given for both power than just soley namesake in it.
Again to my answer above, Sanji wasn't apart of the crew in early beginning. By then Zoro got an reputation growing while Sanji was at Baratie. It wasn't because they were at early together and competing, just Zoro was lucky he was around early to do stuff before Sanji to get his bounty faster than him. Even then it was apparent on them being equals when he joins and their actions while facing opponents who are equal to each other on opposite side too.
Nothing even in NW put Zoro stronger neither especially looking at Wano side, his performance has been very subpar on the lower lvls. His durability take an huge hit as it's not longer the same unlike Sanji who capable of easily defeating an T6H without trouble himself. So until more feats are shown, Sanji looks to be stronger one within duo. Though end of the day, Oda put them rivals no matter what which is apparent in the series in this point. Denying it will just disappoint you since Oda don't follow your style, he follows his own.
