Baam is only a regular still because he hasn't had the time to rank. He's only been traveling for a few years which is no time at all in the tower. This in no way means he doesn't (at least NOW if not previously) have the power to be able to rank, and take on other new, low-level rankers (at least).
Most regulars don't
- fight an ancient Slayer
- go on the Hell Train at all
- go to the data floor, destroy it and best data Zahard
- undergo 'revolution'
- visit the FoD
- 'fix' FoD
- fight against Zahard's army including a commander at Kallavan's level
- have almost every exam fixed against them
- whatever else is missed that is non-traditional to advance up the tower
Now, sure, Baam has a lot of high-level help too, but most regulars are just advancing up the tower, fighting each other and passing exams. Baam has taken a million side-paths that would kill most if not all regulars attempting them.
And it's not like he's done so with a full-blown thorn erection the entire time. But even if he had, that's his weapon now so whatever. Most everyone else cannot use it. Yuri can't even ignite BM. If Baam is doing high-level shit while a baby regular, he's certainly next-level now. Training the basics has improved everything, including high-level attacks. For instance, he can probably use the thorn to a greater extent and for a longer time now. Probably. Evankhell can kill mere rankers with one hand so I can't imagine Baam isn't being trained to be at the level of fodder rankers AT LEAST.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Baam is doing what YHS can only dream of doing, casually. Base-level. He's a freaking ranker.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Didn't want this buried. Soul talk really deserves its own thread though.
Yeah, there's a million possibilities, but it probably won't be that surprising in hindsight. You have Baam and V's bodies, plus their souls. Or any other irregular that came with the OG13. Souls being a central theme. And Arlen being a witch able to do some shit with souls no doubt.
Headon is the ferryman. He's always wheelin' and dealin'. If Arlen got out, rest assured Headon was involved. And how did he get paid? We know he has Akryung as his personal robot. I can't imagine Arlen not being involved in Akryung's creation.
I've said it before but Headon is up to some stuff that any government would find him guilty of treason. I suspect he's a double-agent and sympathetic to Arlen/Enryu and pushing an anti-Zahard agenda. He's certainly networking like he is. I mean, I'm not saying there IS collusion, but it certainly looks like it... heh
We don't know what soul or mixture of souls inhabits Baam. Is it Baam or 'Baam'? Would he have been the same had he grown up in the tower? Is the blue demon a fragment of the 'god' (posing as a god, but a demon?)?
Is that what Garam can't tell Baam? That the incantation went wrong and the 'god' wasn't exactly very friendly? (have any of you read/seen 'The Magicians'?). Will blue demon pop out like Kurama at the worst of times and change Baam or overtake his personality? We certainly haven't seen the last of it, and it apparently has godlike powers that could take over the entire tower....
Thank you for being on the same page!
It only makes sense. Enne is from outside the tower... depending on how you look at it. She wasn't a natural birth with a natural 'plan' organic to the tower - her entire genetic makeup (another ToG theme) is essentially from outside the tower. This is a distinction every other child the 10FH's have don't have, so far as we know (I suspect some other high-ranking 'regulars' might enjoy a similar heritage - Adori and Baek...).
A big deal has been made about her heritage too.
Baam was most likely also an irregular when born. At least in essence. He's twice an irregular now.
Also, consider this... legality is another theme. Irregulars are outside tower laws initially.
Irregulars are, from a legal perspective, best described as diplomats (from another country/outside tower) enjoying diplomatic immunity (not restricted/subject to tower laws/contracts).
It gets better.
(at least here in the US, and probably common practice elsewhere) - if a diplomat brings his own family to foreign soil they too have diplomatic immunity (Ilarde for instance). If a diplomat has a CHILD on that foreign soil with their diplomat spouse (like two irregulars) then that child is NOT a citizen and still enjoys diplomatic immunity (effectively an irregular - Enne?). If a diplomat has a child with a NATIVE then that child is considered a citizen (an irregular having a kid with a tower inhabitant - basically every family heir that isn't Enne or Baam). The half-breeds are "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" (not irregulars as we see for most of the kids from the 10 families).
A. PurposeThe child of a foreign diplomatic officer accredited by the U.S. Department of State who is born in the United States may voluntarily regis
www.uscis.gov
Enne's rank isn't coincidence.
Put another way, if I have two parents that are ethnically/racially ______ (African, Korean, Italian, whatever) and they give birth to me in the US, I may be a citizen born here (not if they're diplomats though, ahem, Enne) but I'm still that ethnic/racial homogeneity in the physical and genetic sense. I might not be born in Africa/Korean peninsula/Italy but I'd still be African/Korean/Italian... I'd have those physical and genetic features good, bad, or indifferent. The offspring of two irregulars might not be a legal 'irregular' (depending on the 'laws' of the tower) but they would still physically be an entity that originated from outside the tower and still enjoys the same genetic and physical inheritance. If both parents are 'unlimited' in their potential due to being from outside the tower (a special 'race' or 'ethnicity' if you will) then the progeny would also be the same. Legal classification (both by the tower's standards and Zahard's empire standards) might be another thing entirely - but that's mostly a label. Politically, Enne isn't classified as an irregular. She didn't enter the tower physically (though her ancestral cells did). But why isn't she an irregular in all other senses??
We know that the term 'irregular' is only a label as it pertains to those coming in after Zahard's empire was formed. In this sense, OG13 both are (physically) and aren't (politically) considered 'irregulars' - it's a matter of perspective and semantics. But, as far as powers are concerned, they very much are irregulars. The point is being an irregular or not isn't always a static definition, and might not be best used to describe the full implications of one's legal and physical limitations. A rose by any other name...
It's also interesting to consider that Baam has always been an irregular. Odd then that he seems so weak.
WTF are you saying dude ? Irregular is not at all a matter of perspective only people who have enter the tower are irregular . 10 FH Bam Rachel Baam's parent Urek Enryuu . You can't inherit this position or have it .
WTF are you saying dude ? Irregular is not at all a matter of perspective only people who have enter the tower are irregular . 10 FH Bam Rachel Baam's parent Urek Enryuu . You can't inherit this position or have it .
a) Irregulars are, in fact, a matter of perspective - see the wiki on whether the 10FH+Z qualify as irregulars. Also, wtf is Akryung? Also, Illarde.
b) You have no way of knowing if a full-blood qualifies or not. Enne's genetics come entirely from outside the tower. She isn't a product of the tower in any way.
Let me just reiterate from the post you quoted, so I'd be repeating myself - hopefully you don't gloss over it this time. 'Irregular' is nothing more than a designation. It is a term used to describe someone that entered the tower by themselves during the current Zahard empire/administration, nothing more. As such, the OG13 are irregulars in the sense that they did just that, only the term wasn't in place when they did so. So they are irregulars in retrospect (only). By the strictest sense of the term they aren't irregulars because they did not come in during the current admin, they preceded it. So.... perspective. They both are and aren't irregulars.
I'm also going to temporarily ignore for a moment that it doesn't APPEAR that Baam/Rachel entered the tower by force, and yet they qualify as irregulars. We have been told that irregulars force themselves into the tower. So unless some latent power within them worked on autopilot or another entity literally picked them up and shoved them in the tower's front doors, they don't seem to qualify in the strictest sense (and even the later is pushing it as there is a third-party involved). So irregular status seems to be a bit loose in its application to say the least. Some may slip through the cracks to qualify as irregulars (Baam, Rachel - no forced entry), while others slip through the cracks to not be called an irregular (Ilarde as far as we know, possibly Akryung). It is beyond obvious that 'irregulars' are still very mysterious in every aspect. We'd be best not to make statements of fact when there seem to be a bit of loose ends and unexplained traits.
Regardless, I'm not so much interested in the term, which is merely a political designation. I am describing a feature that irregulars happen to have. It would seem with a little bit of logic and application of ToG in-universe rules that there exists a possibility that that feature COULD be passed down to a full-blooded offspring of two irregulars. Again, the individual would come from genes/cells that indeed DID come entirely from outside the tower. There are at least two, possibly more, entities that meet this very rare circumstance - Enne and baby Baam.
Enne's heritage has been made kind of a big deal, and not just by me, by SIU in his bio of her.
What such extreme rarities would be called in a political/legal sense - irregular or not - matters very little. There exists the possibility that Enne has pure-blood that isn't watered down at all, and thus she could share the same physical (and possibly legal status as well) traits of her parentage. The story hasn't really focused on her in this sense any more than it has identified Ilarde as an irregular (but she HAS to be one given she's related to an irregular). So, just because the story/SIU doesn't explicitly state something doesn't mean he hasn't given us enough clues to make our own determinations.
This is of course just speculation on my part. But it isn't arbitrary head-canon. I'm using ToG's own rules to come to this conclusion.
a) Irregulars are, in fact, a matter of perspective - see the wiki on whether the 10FH+Z qualify as irregulars. Also, wtf is Akryung? Also, Illarde.
b) You have no way of knowing if a full-blood qualifies or not. Enne's genetics come entirely from outside the tower. She isn't a product of the tower in any way.
Let me just reiterate from the post you quoted, so I'd be repeating myself - hopefully you don't gloss over it this time. 'Irregular' is nothing more than a designation. It is a term used to describe someone that entered the tower by themselves during the current Zahard empire/administration, nothing more. As such, the OG13 are irregulars in the sense that they did just that, only the term wasn't in place when they did so. So they are irregulars in retrospect (only). By the strictest sense of the term they aren't irregulars because they did not come in during the current admin, they preceded it. So.... perspective. They both are and aren't irregulars.
Regardless, I'm not so much interested in the term, which is merely a political designation. I am describing a feature that irregulars happen to have. It would seem with a little bit of logic and application of ToG in-universe rules that there exists a possibility that that feature COULD be passed down to a full-blooded offspring of two irregulars. Again, the individual would come from genes/cells that indeed DID come entirely from outside the tower. There are at least two, possibly more, entities that meet this very rare circumstance - Enne and baby Baam.
Enne's heritage has been made kind of a big deal, and not just by me, by SIU in his bio of her.
What such extreme rarities would be called in a political/legal sense - irregular or not - matters very little. There exists the possibility that Enne has pure-blood that isn't watered down at all, and thus she could share the same physical (and possibly legal status as well) traits of her parentage. The story hasn't really focused on her in this sense any more than it has identified Ilarde as an irregular (but she HAS to be one given she's related to an irregular). So, just because the story/SIU doesn't explicitly state something doesn't mean he hasn't given us enough clues to make our own determinations.
This is of course just speculation on my part. But it isn't arbitrary head-canon. I'm using ToG's own rules to come to this conclusion.
Irregulars are people who are permitted by Guardians to abuse unfair power. Regulars are not permitted by Guardians to abuse unfair powers.
Irregulars are the types of people comparable to hackers in a video game.
Irregulars/hackers have unlimited potential within the Tower/game. They have clearance to use broken items that can't be used by anyone else other than their own type (Thorns). They can only use broken abilities (Shinwonryu). They can only request for Guardian Tests. Guides are blocked from seeing Irregular paths. Fate helps them all over the Regulars too.
Regulars only play fairly because they are forced to do so within the Tower. They can't become Irregulars if they are ever chosen to be Regulars.
Baam would not have Ranker power at this point in his climb if he was born inside the Tower and chosen to climb as a Regular.
Irregulars are people who are permitted by Guardians to abuse unfair power. Regulars are not permitted by Guardians to abuse unfair powers.
Irregulars are the types of people comparable to hackers in a video game.
Irregulars/hackers have unlimited potential within the Tower/game. They have clearance to use broken items that can't be used by anyone else other than their own type (Thorns). They can only use broken abilities (Shinwonryu). They can only request for Guardian Tests. Guides are blocked from seeing Irregular paths. Fate helps them all over the Regulars too.
Regulars only play fairly because they are forced to do so within the Tower. They can't become Irregulars if they are ever chosen to be Regulars.
Baam would not have Ranker power at this point in his climb if he was born inside the Tower and chosen to climb as a Regular.
I appreciate your speculative post and subjective analogies.
I reiterate irregulars are merely a designation. Canon fact.
Do you have a comment on what an offspring of an outside agent of the tower, full-blooded, might present as?
I think the term 'irregular' is tripping some up. I'm not concerned with political names. I'm curious if pure-blood means anything in the tower.
I also find it fun to speculate on what Baam might have been like. I would stop short of commenting on what he'd be like as a fact, however. We simply have no way of knowing.
Regarding irregular status: If the Hidden Floor is a representation of the Tower, then Irregulars are real living people from the outside, while the rest, even the children of real players, are NPCs. And If you are born inside the game, you are limited to It. If you are a real player, then not only you are unbound by the game's rules but also unknown and unpredictable to its programing, meaning Guides cannot read your Future. A game needs real players, the Tower needs irregulars coming in.
The number of players is really few, but I guess It Works like Dungeons and Dragons Cartoon or Jumanji: a few people entered the game and became trapped in its reality.
So children of 10 Families would be otherwordly powerful for being partial copies of real people. And even being NPCs, we saw How Batis had a soul and a personality. Even feelings. All of Bam's friends are virtual people that don't exist outside. Just like Icarus, they Will vanish If this world ended.
However, some things can come out into reality despite being virtual. We saw Batis' soul in the painting, we saw Wangnan's item, even the bracelet. There is the possibility of exchange. And I guess what Arlene did was to turn Bam into a real boy, to have the "Matrix" create an exit body for him on the outside, and then have him reenter now not as a product of the Tower but as a real player. And furthermore, give him the Power to have the same effect as Data Edwan's pill on the Tower, and end this game so they can all Go home.
I think Enne will have the same priviledge of being able to leave, being the child of two real people, she existing outside doesn't contradict the rules. She Will surely outlive the Tower. But my take on this is that Bam will leave a lot behind and exit ToG.
Regarding irregular status: If the Hidden Floor is a representation of the Tower, then Irregulars are real living people from the outside, while the rest, even the children of real players, are NPCs. And If you are born inside the game, you are limited to It. If you are a real player, then not only you are unbound by the game's rules but also unknown and unpredictable to its programing, meaning Guides cannot read your Future. A game needs real players, the Tower needs irregulars coming in.
The number of players is really few, but I guess It Works like Dungeons and Dragons Cartoon or Jumanji: a few people entered the game and became trapped in its reality.
So children of 10 Families would be otherwordly powerful for being partial copies of real people. And even being NPCs, we saw How Batis had a soul and a personality. Even feelings. All of Bam's friends are virtual people that don't exist outside. Just like Icarus, they Will vanish If this world ended.
However, some things can come out into reality despite being virtual. We saw Batis' soul in the painting, we saw Wangnan's item, even the bracelet. There is the possibility of exchange. And I guess what Arlene did was to turn Bam into a real boy, to have the "Matrix" create an exit body for him on the outside, and then have him reenter now not as a product of the Tower but as a real player. And furthermore, give him the Power to have the same effect as Data Edwan's pill on the Tower, and end this game so they can all Go home.
I think Enne will have the same priviledge of being able to leave, being the child of two real people, she existing outside doesn't contradict the rules. She Will surely outlive the Tower. But my take on this is that Bam will leave a lot behind and exit ToG.
Irregulars look identical to tower inhabitants but really aren't. They are both flesh and blood, and have souls. But irregulars come from outside the tower. Call it another country. Call it another planet. They are a different race/ethnicity.
It's like Nartoverse's Otsutsuki Clan. If Kaguya had offspring with another from the Otsutsuki Clan (two irregulars from the same race), it would be full-blooded and have all the same powers as her and her clan - even if born on earth (in the tower). This Otsutsuki child - irrespective of where it is born; on earth, on the moon, on another home planet - would still be Otsutsuki. This is like ToG's Enne.
Since she had sons with an earth-being, they both were still very strong in their own right, but they can't compare to Kaguya or full-bloods. Hagoromo is a half-breed. This would be like any princess in ToG that isn't pure like Enne. He's second-tier to pure Otsutsuki members.
As they continued to have kids down the generations, the bloodline thinned and so did the powers. Unlike in the DBZ universe, it seems the more the blood is thinned the weaker the powers become. ToG is also like this.
I also reiterate that, biologically-speaking, Enne originated from outside-the-tower genetic material - entirely.
Then, there's the legal angle. I'm not sure if she qualifies in the legal sense, so she may not be labeled an irregular. But she could still enjoy the biological traits if not the legal traits (or both, or neither).
The legal designation is also divided into two parts - political as it pertains to Zahard's empire and legal as it pertains to tower admin and contracts. In the legal world, there are tons of examples of gray areas and not everything ever is black and white. Who knows how SIU will address this situation with Enne's heritage (that he created and made a semi-big deal about in her bio) - or if he ever will.
a) Irregulars are, in fact, a matter of perspective - see the wiki on whether the 10FH+Z qualify as irregulars. Also, wtf is Akryung? Also, Illarde.
b) You have no way of knowing if a full-blood qualifies or not. Enne's genetics come entirely from outside the tower. She isn't a product of the tower in any way.
Let me just reiterate from the post you quoted, so I'd be repeating myself - hopefully you don't gloss over it this time. 'Irregular' is nothing more than a designation. It is a term used to describe someone that entered the tower by themselves during the current Zahard empire/administration, nothing more. As such, the OG13 are irregulars in the sense that they did just that, only the term wasn't in place when they did so. So they are irregulars in retrospect (only). By the strictest sense of the term they aren't irregulars because they did not come in during the current admin, they preceded it. So.... perspective. They both are and aren't irregulars.
I'm also going to temporarily ignore for a moment that it doesn't APPEAR that Baam/Rachel entered the tower by force, and yet they qualify as irregulars. We have been told that irregulars force themselves into the tower. So unless some latent power within them worked on autopilot or another entity literally picked them up and shoved them in the tower's front doors, they don't seem to qualify in the strictest sense (and even the later is pushing it as there is a third-party involved). So irregular status seems to be a bit loose in its application to say the least. Some may slip through the cracks to qualify as irregulars (Baam, Rachel - no forced entry), while others slip through the cracks to not be called an irregular (Ilarde as far as we know, possibly Akryung). It is beyond obvious that 'irregulars' are still very mysterious in every aspect. We'd be best not to make statements of fact when there seem to be a bit of loose ends and unexplained traits.
Regardless, I'm not so much interested in the term, which is merely a political designation. I am describing a feature that irregulars happen to have. It would seem with a little bit of logic and application of ToG in-universe rules that there exists a possibility that that feature COULD be passed down to a full-blooded offspring of two irregulars. Again, the individual would come from genes/cells that indeed DID come entirely from outside the tower. There are at least two, possibly more, entities that meet this very rare circumstance - Enne and baby Baam.
Enne's heritage has been made kind of a big deal, and not just by me, by SIU in his bio of her.
What such extreme rarities would be called in a political/legal sense - irregular or not - matters very little. There exists the possibility that Enne has pure-blood that isn't watered down at all, and thus she could share the same physical (and possibly legal status as well) traits of her parentage. The story hasn't really focused on her in this sense any more than it has identified Ilarde as an irregular (but she HAS to be one given she's related to an irregular). So, just because the story/SIU doesn't explicitly state something doesn't mean he hasn't given us enough clues to make our own determinations.
This is of course just speculation on my part. But it isn't arbitrary head-canon. I'm using ToG's own rules to come to this conclusion.
You are not saying complete shit . But it is made clear a irregular is a irregular if he has enter through the tower doors and only that . Enne is the daughter of 2 irregular but that doesn't make her a irregulars , or someone proach to a irregular . She only most of they trait , but one thngs is missing the tower benediction that can be passed down by lineage only the tower gave you when you enter the tower . She wasn't choosed by the tower . that's why she isn't even proach of the irregulars status . I whant to clarify somethigs what makes a irregulars so special is one . A special unique being never seen in the tower + the irregulars power or blessing gave by the tower . The irregulars is one of the best things that akes irregulars apart from everybody . It gave them so much affinity to Shinsoo .
I appreciate your speculative post and subjective analogies.
I reiterate irregulars are merely a designation. Canon fact.
Do you have a comment on what an offspring of an outside agent of the tower, full-blooded, might present as?
I think the term 'irregular' is tripping some up. I'm not concerned with political names. I'm curious if pure-blood means anything in the tower.
I also find it fun to speculate on what Baam might have been like. I would stop short of commenting on what he'd be like as a fact, however. We simply have no way of knowing.
Yes it is merely a title or a designation if you have enter the tower you are irregulars if not no . Baam would have been stronger than Jyu viole Grace for sure and by many times . Because he don't have the tower blessing .
And you are speaking about Akryung but GOG was also using shinwonryu but he wasn't a irregular . GOG being a ancient machine , Akryung could be the next generation . And using Shinwonryuu doesn't make a irregulars . Only one thing make you a irregualrs wheter you enter the tower through the doors or no .
Irregulars look identical to tower inhabitants but really aren't. They are both flesh and blood, and have souls. But irregulars come from outside the tower. Call it another country. Call it another planet. They are a different race/ethnicity.
It's like Nartoverse's Otsutsuki Clan. If Kaguya had offspring with another from the Otsutsuki Clan (two irregulars from the same race), it would be full-blooded and have all the same powers as her and her clan - even if born on earth (in the tower). This Otsutsuki child - irrespective of where it is born; on earth, on the moon, on another home planet - would still be Otsutsuki. This is like ToG's Enne.
Since she had sons with an earth-being, they both were still very strong in their own right, but they can't compare to Kaguya or full-bloods. Hagoromo is a half-breed. This would be like any princess in ToG that isn't pure like Enne. He's second-tier to pure Otsutsuki members.
As they continued to have kids down the generations, the bloodline thinned and so did the powers. Unlike in the DBZ universe, it seems the more the blood is thinned the weaker the powers become. ToG is also like this.
I also reiterate that, biologically-speaking, Enne originated from outside-the-tower genetic material - entirely.
Then, there's the legal angle. I'm not sure if she qualifies in the legal sense, so she may not be labeled an irregular. But she could still enjoy the biological traits if not the legal traits (or both, or neither).
The legal designation is also divided into two parts - political as it pertains to Zahard's empire and legal as it pertains to tower admin and contracts. In the legal world, there are tons of examples of gray areas and not everything ever is black and white. Who knows how SIU will address this situation with Enne's heritage (that he created and made a semi-big deal about in her bio) - or if he ever will.
Irregulars look identical to tower inhabitants but really aren't. They are both flesh and blood, and have souls. But irregulars come from outside the tower. Call it another country. Call it another planet. They are a different race/ethnicity.
It's like Nartoverse's Otsutsuki Clan. If Kaguya had offspring with another from the Otsutsuki Clan (two irregulars from the same race), it would be full-blooded and have all the same powers as her and her clan - even if born on earth (in the tower). This Otsutsuki child - irrespective of where it is born; on earth, on the moon, on another home planet - would still be Otsutsuki. This is like ToG's Enne.
Since she had sons with an earth-being, they both were still very strong in their own right, but they can't compare to Kaguya or full-bloods. Hagoromo is a half-breed. This would be like any princess in ToG that isn't pure like Enne. He's second-tier to pure Otsutsuki members.
As they continued to have kids down the generations, the bloodline thinned and so did the powers. Unlike in the DBZ universe, it seems the more the blood is thinned the weaker the powers become. ToG is also like this.
I also reiterate that, biologically-speaking, Enne originated from outside-the-tower genetic material - entirely.
Then, there's the legal angle. I'm not sure if she qualifies in the legal sense, so she may not be labeled an irregular. But she could still enjoy the biological traits if not the legal traits (or both, or neither).
The legal designation is also divided into two parts - political as it pertains to Zahard's empire and legal as it pertains to tower admin and contracts. In the legal world, there are tons of examples of gray areas and not everything ever is black and white. Who knows how SIU will address this situation with Enne's heritage (that he created and made a semi-big deal about in her bio) - or if he ever will.
That's not a single case in history type a thing tho. If Enne is a special case, the twins from Ha/Ari family are also children of 2 irregulars. There should be more (10 people living together for eternity would have 'mated' many times among themselves). If being a child of 2 irregulars is an exception, it's too easy so to speak. 10GFs would be an irregular factory, Just throw a party with lots of booze. lol
shinsoo is everything here.. remove the shinsoo around, those musclehead rankers with hundreds of years fighting exp. will beat bam to a pulp.. this is the opinion those who dont want to believe bam is ranker level is trying to convey, am i right?
Irregulars are merely defined as someone who opened the door to the tower and not bound by certain rules of the tower. Not sure if the mere fact you opened the door exempts you from these rules. However, with regard to Enne, too much is known about her such that we can say she is definitely bound by the rules of the tower. Here she has the blood from 2 FH and Zahard. Yet nowhere did people suggest she had the ability to use shinwryu. That is the very first thing people talk about when they see Baam use it.
I don't buy the idea that regulars are virtual beings trapped in the tower. I would speculate that they can leave the tower under the right circumstances. For example, the workshop, according to Macseth, also exists outside the Tower and no-one knows its origin. Yet Macseth is a regular an originates from inside the tower. Yet he has knowledge from outside the tower. Baam was born in the tower yet opened the door to re-enter the tower. Baam was also born into the tower and left. Though he technically was dead and reborn outside the tower which complicates everything, So if a regular leaves the tower and reenters it, is he now an irregular? I am thinking not. Baam is the exception because he died and was reborn outside the tower. Akryung is also a weird case and I think he may actually be an admin or an offspring of one. That is how he can use shinwyru.
The whole notion of irregulars is complicated by the fact that SUI has made little attempt to explain them to us. However, if there is a rule, I think it is most likely an irregular must be born outside the tower.
How is this so hard the whole point of explaining the loops and using it, is a way to show he can be relevant against ranker without it being cheap, we have seem him without the loops is a b class to a class regular is makes a lot of sense.
If bam had ranker level shinsu capacity and skills already, he would have instantly destroyed akryung like he did with dogs, mad dog and snake guy, but he jumped straight to his special technique and using it since.
what capacity? ....you can can control shinsoo how much and however you want if you have the ability to control it or rights to control it for reg and irreg
I have made my case, several times now. If you don't agree, that's fine. I don't claim it to be anything other than speculation, but I stand by it for now - until we have more evidence. I happen to think it's a reasonable assumption.
Also, we know nothing about 'tower benediction'. I'm merely speculating that all pure-blood foreign material MIGHT get the same rules. I even used actual diplomatic law for precedence, as well as Tower 'rules' (albeit from a certain perspective).
I appreciate your speculative post and subjective analogies.
I reiterate irregulars are merely a designation. Canon fact.
Do you have a comment on what an offspring of an outside agent of the tower, full-blooded, might present as?
I think the term 'irregular' is tripping some up. I'm not concerned with political names. I'm curious if pure-blood means anything in the tower.
I also find it fun to speculate on what Baam might have been like. I would stop short of commenting on what he'd be like as a fact, however. We simply have no way of knowing.
Baam would be weaker because he wouldn't be able to use the high-powered special traits of his Irregular parents.
Just like how Ran or Maschenny can't effectively use their inherited special power from Eduan even though they are his offspring. The offspring twins of Yurin and Ari likewise aren't capable of surpassing their parents.
If direct descendants were Irregulars instead of Regulars then they would effectively use their inherited special powers to much higher standards than ever before.
Baam is on a forced journey to defeat Zahard based on a prophecy. He would not be as talented as a Regular because he would have a much harder time developing his Shinsoo mechanics and using Shinsoo techniques would cost more out of himself to use.
The faith in him being the one to takeout Zahard is purely based on him being an Irregular. The Thorns and the benefits that come from being an Irregular is all the difference. SIU has said Baam's body has gotten naturally a lot stronger from using the Thorn and that the Thorn grows along with how powerful the user grows as well. So, if Baam never used a Thorn up to this point, Baam's body would be much weaker. That would be one of the points as to why Baam would be weaker as a Regular compared to an Irregular who is allowed to use Thorns.
Besides Baam and Enne, who? I'm open to others, and I think others may qualify. I have said I wouldn't be surprised if Baek and other very high rankers also meet this criteria.
I'm trying to remember who the heck you're talking about here. Are they pure-blooded or from family offspring thus watered-down so to speak? The only twins I remember are the princesses, and they are Lo Po Bia...
There should be more (10 people living together for eternity would have 'mated' many times among themselves). If being a child of 2 irregulars is an exception, it's too easy so to speak. 10GFs would be an irregular factory, Just throw a party with lots of booze. lol
Please see my Ilarde thread. I don't think irregulars are as rare an event as some here do. SIU made a big deal about Enne's heritage as the perfect candidate since she was full-blooded. His words, not mine: "Enne was considered to be of the ultimate descent, being the daughter of two family heads."
The implication is that is a pretty rare event. Not that it can't happen but when it does it's a big deal. But it seems the companions were too busy banging tower inhabitants and not each other. That is how the vast majority of family kids are being 'made' lol.
I also want to note that Zahard specifically put Enne on ice. Not because this baby-killer isn't OK with the idea of princesses being killed by others or even themselves. No, he specifically couldn't kill ENNE. She was a special case. I'd suggest she actually does qualify as capable of having his seed as a full-blood - that is if he actually wanted an heir. Without the curse she was likely capable of gather all 13mo's. Think about how cold Zahard is - why HER?
Further, I was pretty specific in stating I'm not talking about 'irregulars' but their inherent, inherited abilities - whether labeled 'irregular' or not.
Irregulars are merely defined as someone who opened the door to the tower and not bound by certain rules of the tower. Not sure if the mere fact you opened the door exempts you from these rules. However, with regard to Enne, too much is known about her such that we can say she is definitely bound by the rules of the tower. Here she has the blood from 2 FH and Zahard. Yet nowhere did people suggest she had the ability to use shinwryu. That is the very first thing people talk about when they see Baam use it.
I'm not sure I get this argument. We haven't seen any FH use Shinwonryu or heard about them doing it (outside, what, 2 on the data floor?). But they can all do it in theory. So could V and Arlen by that standard. Urek and Enryu too.
For all we know Enne has the potential and just never underwent 'revolution'. We don't know that she certainly can't use it. Hell, we didn't know Akryung could until we recently saw him do it.
Personally, I think it would be pretty cool to find out an ancient sealed princess was so unique that Zahard couldn't be brought to kill her and she had been using Shinwonryu among other attacks. Supposedly, even Zahard himself had to get involved to stop her. Allegedly.
I don't buy the idea that regulars are virtual beings trapped in the tower. I would speculate that they can leave the tower under the right circumstances. For example, the workshop, according to Macseth, also exists outside the Tower and no-one knows its origin. Yet Macseth is a regular an originates from inside the tower. Yet he has knowledge from outside the tower. Baam was born in the tower yet opened the door to re-enter the tower. Baam was also born into the tower and left. Though he technically was dead and reborn outside the tower which complicates everything, So if a regular leaves the tower and reenters it, is he now an irregular? I am thinking not. Baam is the exception because he died and was reborn outside the tower. Akryung is also a weird case and I think he may actually be an admin or an offspring of one. That is how he can use shinwyru.
The whole notion of irregulars is complicated by the fact that SUI has made little attempt to explain them to us. However, if there is a rule, I think it is most likely an irregular must be born outside the tower.
I agree it's complicated. I'm just guessing like many here (whether they present their argument as fact or speculation always cracks me up when not understanding the distinction....). I didn't realize until recently that Ilarde more than likely qualifies as an irregular, and that opens the door to a lot more 'traditional' irregulars - potentially dozens or hundreds. But we have seen that there's always exception to the rules. GoG, Akryung, Gong Bang as you point out, Ilarde plus however many more, etc. Also, we have seen exceptions to rankers in that we have a regular with ranker abilities (the old one that trained Baam/Evankhell). Enryu broke convention and killed an otherwise thought to be unkillable admin. Wangnan may be a 'broken rule' by seemingly inherited immortality. The list goes on but apparently some here are hard-line that rules are rules and that's it....
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Guys (and gals?), let me put it another way with another thought experiment - if, say, Zahard CLONED himself, would that clone be an irregular too? Before you answer, consider we have no way of knowing with certainty one way or another right now. That said, what I'm suggesting with Enne is exactly the same circumstance genetically/biologically speaking - and perhaps even 'legally' speaking as well.
We have not seen family heads use Shinwyru but Urek has. On the FOD he said Baam used the same shinsuu as the FH. That is why is speculated Baam was from outside the tower.
As for the exercise... Cloned? Boy sure are opening up a can of worms here. lol. In the traditional sense, cloned merely means the same DNA (genetically the same). However, as evidenced in science, a cloned being is not the same nor is it the original. Legally, the clone does not inherit the rights and privileges of the original either. Also, a clone is a point in time and due to natural mutation, such as aging, the exact copy (clone) begins to diverge from the parent. I don't think we are suggesting it is genetics that makes you an irregular but how you are subject to the rules of the tower. That being said, I think anything born in the tower is subject to the myriad of rules of the tower. We should not pretend to know or understand all these rules and that complicates everything. However, I would speculate, Zahards clone made within the tower would NOT be an irregular while a clone made outside the tower would be an irregular. Enne was born to the tower and is more than just one of its denizens, she is subject to the tower. IMO
Besides Baam and Enne, who? I'm open to others, and I think others may qualify. I have said I wouldn't be surprised if Baek and other very high rankers also meet this criteria.
I'm trying to remember who the heck you're talking about here. Are they pure-blooded or from family offspring thus watered-down so to speak? The only twins I remember are the princesses, and they are Lo Po Bia...
Please see my Ilarde thread. I don't think irregulars are as rare an event as some here do. SIU made a big deal about Enne's heritage as the perfect candidate since she was full-blooded. His words, not mine: "Enne was considered to be of the ultimate descent, being the daughter of two family heads."
The implication is that is a pretty rare event. Not that it can't happen but when it does it's a big deal. But it seems the companions were too busy banging tower inhabitants and not each other. That is how the vast majority of family kids are being 'made' lol.
I also want to note that Zahard specifically put Enne on ice. Not because this baby-killer isn't OK with the idea of princesses being killed by others or even themselves. No, he specifically couldn't kill ENNE. She was a special case. I'd suggest she actually does qualify as capable of having his seed as a full-blood - that is if he actually wanted an heir. Without the curse she was likely capable of gather all 13mo's. Think about how cold Zahard is - why HER?
Further, I was pretty specific in stating I'm not talking about 'irregulars' but their inherent, inherited abilities - whether labeled 'irregular' or not.
To be labeled 'irregular' - yes. What about legal cases of children of diplomats (best IRL legal analogy)? What about their genetic material?
I'm not sure I get this argument. We haven't seen any FH use Shinwonryu or heard about them doing it (outside, what, 2 on the data floor?). But they can all do it in theory. So could V and Arlen by that standard. Urek and Enryu too.
For all we know Enne has the potential and just never underwent 'revolution'. We don't know that she certainly can't use it. Hell, we didn't know Akryung could until we recently saw him do it.
Personally, I think it would be pretty cool to find out an ancient sealed princess was so unique that Zahard couldn't be brought to kill her and she had been using Shinwonryu among other attacks. Supposedly, even Zahard himself had to get involved to stop her. Allegedly.
I agree it's complicated. I'm just guessing like many here (whether they present their argument as fact or speculation always cracks me up when not understanding the distinction....). I didn't realize until recently that Ilarde more than likely qualifies as an irregular, and that opens the door to a lot more 'traditional' irregulars - potentially dozens or hundreds. But we have seen that there's always exception to the rules. GoG, Akryung, Gong Bang as you point out, Ilarde plus however many more, etc. Also, we have seen exceptions to rankers in that we have a regular with ranker abilities (the old one that trained Baam/Evankhell). Enryu broke convention and killed an otherwise thought to be unkillable admin. Wangnan may be a 'broken rule' by seemingly inherited immortality. The list goes on but apparently some here are hard-line that rules are rules and that's it....
=====================================
Guys (and gals?), let me put it another way with another thought experiment - if, say, Zahard CLONED himself, would that clone be an irregular too? Before you answer, consider we have no way of knowing with certainty one way or another right now. That said, what I'm suggesting with Enne is exactly the same circumstance genetically/biologically speaking - and perhaps even 'legally' speaking as well.
If the descendants went outside the tower and came back in, then yes they'll qualify as irregulars. Having irregular's genetic/blood/dna whatever doesn't make them an irregular.
All we have seen from the tower is example after example of anyone descended from the tower families have been stronger than typical regulars that aren't descendants. Enne is particularly strong as she has two of them as parents. Every single example of someone that's an heir is made to be a big deal of sorts because they are stronger than your average Joe. Yet Baam is as soft as butter and even those with no heritage could have killed him if not for his companions, plot armor, and buffs like the thorn.
Are princesses or Khun Elliot super-weak? Then why would an in-tower Baam be weaker than the current Baam who started as being able to be blown over by the wind? Short of very special buffs, and now 'shinsoo blessing' (that even others with great heritage also have), Baam is still very weak. Particularly when he first entered - it's hard to imagine someone weaker than him. And, we know that orbs, bangs, even shinsoo blessing isn't unique to irregulars, so Baam could likely develop these things all the same had he grown up in the tower. He could have even conceivably taken on the souls (not unique to an irregular) and red thryssa (not unique to irregulars). Only shinwonryu and the thorn are something we don't know if he'd be able to use. As a full-blood I don't see why not.
I reiterate this is all rhetorical and impossible to know, so my answer and yours are just speculative. This is of course OPINION from us both.
Just like how Ran or Maschenny can't effectively use their inherited special power from Eduan even though they are his offspring. The offspring twins of Yurin and Ari likewise aren't capable of surpassing their parents.
Second time the twins have been mentioned. I dug around and we have ZERO information about them - only that they exist (we don't even know their gender). I was thinking I'd read about some twin regular nobodies that would blow my entire theory up, but... we know nothing of their power or abilities. And more than likely they are very strong, yet not as established as their older parents. So what? Enne has shown that children can grow at rates quicker than FH's, but that's likely because she is full-blood. Enne is significantly younger yet ranked higher than most of the FH's - that means her growth rate is off the charts. Same with Baek who some speculate is a child of at least one FH. It would seem that these twins haven't surpassed their parents by rank (yet if ever), but that doesn't mean that the potential isn't there. Enne is above BOTH her parents in rank and seemingly in power as well.
If direct descendants were Irregulars instead of Regulars then they would effectively use their inherited special powers to much higher standards than ever before.
Like Enne has possibly done to outrank both her parents (hint: we don't know)? Full-bloods seem to be a rare type that we know very little about. In fact, we know less about them than we do about irregulars, and so far their count is more rare than irregulars too. I'm not sure how you can make a definitive statement about them with so little information thus far.
Baam is on a forced journey to defeat Zahard based on a prophecy. He would not be as talented as a Regular because he would have a much harder time developing his Shinsoo mechanics and using Shinsoo techniques would cost more out of himself to use.
The faith in him being the one to takeout Zahard is purely based on him being an Irregular. The Thorns and the benefits that come from being an Irregular is all the difference. SIU has said Baam's body has gotten naturally a lot stronger from using the Thorn and that the Thorn grows along with how powerful the user grows as well. So, if Baam never used a Thorn up to this point, Baam's body would be much weaker. That would be one of the points as to why Baam would be weaker as a Regular compared to an Irregular who is allowed to use Thorns.
And Baam is the MC and super-rare by a variety of ways. He's the only one we know that has been resurrected, left the tower, came back in, two FH parents, got the thorn, etc etc etc.
One way he's an exception is by being a WEAK irregular. All others (short of Rachel) have shown to be strong right out the gate. So maybe in the tower he'd be the exception and be a weak descendant, yet every descendant we have seen in the tower has been strong at some level - and stronger yet if they come from the main branch and not an offshoot branch.
I'd argue there's something about dying that 'reset' him and his potential. Inside the tower I'd imagine he'd be stronger - at least from the onset - like every other family offspring we've seen, Enne in particular since she's one of the very few that share a similar heritage.
Nevertheless, there are other irregulars. Urek refuses to do the job. The family head relatives/companions may be too weak comparatively or have been since bound by tower contracts. Akryung is a seeming one-off robot. Enryu and Phanta seemed up to the task but stopped short for some reason.
Baam is a 'blank slate' in every way. He's the only one that checks all the boxes - that's willing and able. He also has that special prophecy/revenge angle too. Since he's so blank he can be pumped full of all sorts of buffs. Without the thorn though he'd undoubtedly be unable in killing Zahard.
Although I'm not sure what you're getting at as I don't disagree he's an irregular. On the contrary, I think he's the only one to (possibly) fit the criteria to being an irregular (in name or function or designation or some mix thereof) twice over now.
If the descendants went outside the tower and came back in, then yes they'll qualify as irregulars. Having irregular's genetic/blood/dna whatever doesn't make them an irregular.
All we have seen from the tower is example after example of anyone descended from the tower families have been stronger than typical regulars that aren't descendants. Enne is particularly strong as she has two of them as parents. Every single example of someone that's an heir is made to be a big deal of sorts because they are stronger than your average Joe. Yet Baam is as soft as butter and even those with no heritage could have killed him if not for his companions, plot armor, and buffs like the thorn.
Are princesses or Khun Elliot super-weak? Then why would an in-tower Baam be weaker than the current Baam who started as being able to be blown over by the wind? Short of very special buffs, and now 'shinsoo blessing' (that even others with great heritage also have), Baam is still very weak. Particularly when he first entered - it's hard to imagine someone weaker than him. And, we know that orbs, bangs, even shinsoo blessing isn't unique to irregulars, so Baam could likely develop these things all the same had he grown up in the tower. He could have even conceivably taken on the souls (not unique to an irregular) and red thryssa (not unique to irregulars). Only shinwonryu and the thorn are something we don't know if he'd be able to use. As a full-blood I don't see why not.
I reiterate this is all rhetorical and impossible to know, so my answer and yours are just speculative. This is of course OPINION from us both.
Second time the twins have been mentioned. I dug around and we have ZERO information about them - only that they exist (we don't even know their gender). I was thinking I'd read about some twin regular nobodies that would blow my entire theory up, but... we know nothing of their power or abilities. And more than likely they are very strong, yet not as established as their older parents. So what? Enne has shown that children can grow at rates quicker than FH's, but that's likely because she is full-blood. Enne is significantly younger yet ranked higher than most of the FH's - that means her growth rate is off the charts. Same with Baek who some speculate is a child of at least one FH. It would seem that these twins haven't surpassed their parents by rank (yet if ever), but that doesn't mean that the potential isn't there. Enne is above BOTH her parents in rank and seemingly in power as well.
Like Enne has possibly done to outrank both her parents (hint: we don't know)? Full-bloods seem to be a rare type that we know very little about. In fact, we know less about them than we do about irregulars, and so far their count is more rare than irregulars too. I'm not sure how you can make a definitive statement about them with so little information thus far.
And Baam is the MC and super-rare by a variety of ways. He's the only one we know that has been resurrected, left the tower, came back in, two FH parents, got the thorn, etc etc etc.
One way he's an exception is by being a WEAK irregular. All others (short of Rachel) have shown to be strong right out the gate. So maybe in the tower he'd be the exception and be a weak descendant, yet every descendant we have seen in the tower has been strong at some level - and stronger yet if they come from the main branch and not an offshoot branch.
I'd argue there's something about dying that 'reset' him and his potential. Inside the tower I'd imagine he'd be stronger - at least from the onset - like every other family offspring we've seen, Enne in particular since she's one of the very few that share a similar heritage.
Nevertheless, there are other irregulars. Urek refuses to do the job. The family head relatives/companions may be too weak comparatively or have been since bound by tower contracts. Akryung is a seeming one-off robot. Enryu and Phanta seemed up to the task but stopped short for some reason.
Baam is a 'blank slate' in every way. He's the only one that checks all the boxes - that's willing and able. He also has that special prophecy/revenge angle too. Since he's so blank he can be pumped full of all sorts of buffs. Without the thorn though he'd undoubtedly be unable in killing Zahard.
Although I'm not sure what you're getting at as I don't disagree he's an irregular. On the contrary, I think he's the only one to (possibly) fit the criteria to being an irregular (in name or function or designation or some mix thereof) twice over now.
Besides Baam and Enne, who? I'm open to others, and I think others may qualify. I have said I wouldn't be surprised if Baek and other very high rankers also meet this criteria.
I'm trying to remember who the heck you're talking about here. Are they pure-blooded or from family offspring thus watered-down so to speak? The only twins I remember are the princesses, and they are Lo Po Bia...
Please see my Ilarde thread. I don't think irregulars are as rare an event as some here do. SIU made a big deal about Enne's heritage as the perfect candidate since she was full-blooded. His words, not mine: "Enne was considered to be of the ultimate descent, being the daughter of two family heads."
The implication is that is a pretty rare event. Not that it can't happen but when it does it's a big deal. But it seems the companions were too busy banging tower inhabitants and not each other. That is how the vast majority of family kids are being 'made' lol.
I also want to note that Zahard specifically put Enne on ice. Not because this baby-killer isn't OK with the idea of princesses being killed by others or even themselves. No, he specifically couldn't kill ENNE. She was a special case. I'd suggest she actually does qualify as capable of having his seed as a full-blood - that is if he actually wanted an heir. Without the curse she was likely capable of gather all 13mo's. Think about how cold Zahard is - why HER?
Further, I was pretty specific in stating I'm not talking about 'irregulars' but their inherent, inherited abilities - whether labeled 'irregular' or not.
To be labeled 'irregular' - yes. What about legal cases of children of diplomats (best IRL legal analogy)? What about their genetic material?
I'm not sure I get this argument. We haven't seen any FH use Shinwonryu or heard about them doing it (outside, what, 2 on the data floor?). But they can all do it in theory. So could V and Arlen by that standard. Urek and Enryu too.
For all we know Enne has the potential and just never underwent 'revolution'. We don't know that she certainly can't use it. Hell, we didn't know Akryung could until we recently saw him do it.
Personally, I think it would be pretty cool to find out an ancient sealed princess was so unique that Zahard couldn't be brought to kill her and she had been using Shinwonryu among other attacks. Supposedly, even Zahard himself had to get involved to stop her. Allegedly.
I agree it's complicated. I'm just guessing like many here (whether they present their argument as fact or speculation always cracks me up when not understanding the distinction....). I didn't realize until recently that Ilarde more than likely qualifies as an irregular, and that opens the door to a lot more 'traditional' irregulars - potentially dozens or hundreds. But we have seen that there's always exception to the rules. GoG, Akryung, Gong Bang as you point out, Ilarde plus however many more, etc. Also, we have seen exceptions to rankers in that we have a regular with ranker abilities (the old one that trained Baam/Evankhell). Enryu broke convention and killed an otherwise thought to be unkillable admin. Wangnan may be a 'broken rule' by seemingly inherited immortality. The list goes on but apparently some here are hard-line that rules are rules and that's it....
=====================================
Guys (and gals?), let me put it another way with another thought experiment - if, say, Zahard CLONED himself, would that clone be an irregular too? Before you answer, consider we have no way of knowing with certainty one way or another right now. That said, what I'm suggesting with Enne is exactly the same circumstance genetically/biologically speaking - and perhaps even 'legally' speaking as well.
The twins are offspring of the Ha/Ari family leaders. They belong to the Ha family and have a rivalry about who's the heir of the family.
Jinsung probably is son of one of them.
