One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[nik87]

But when. I cant remember a single opponent he has that moved at light speed for this to even be a feat.

Kuma's laser and Kuma's air pad canon.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Kuma's laser and Kuma's air pad canon.

Kuma's air pad canon... Doesnt travel at light speed. He pushes the air at light speed, causing a canon effect. That was a mistranstalation.

As for his laser, he charges the laser before releasing it, giving the opponent ample time to realize he is charging an attack and avoid it.

 

[nik87]

Kuma's air pad canon... Doesnt travel at light speed. He pushes the air at light speed, causing a canon effect. That was a mistranstalation.
As for his laser, he charges the laser before releasing it, giving the opponent ample time to realize he is charging an attack and avoid it.

Well, decide for yourself how fast it looks, those two are still best evasive feats among all Strawhats and possibly overall.

Spoiler

In first panel with laser Zoro isnt even starting to move yet and laser is already fired and he still evades it. I tried to find better evasive feats and couldnt find...

 

[Pirate Queen]

Well, decide for yourself how fast it looks, those two are still best evasive feats among all Strawhats and possibly overall.

Spoiler

In first panel with laser Zoro isnt even starting to move yet and laser is already fired and he still evades it. I tried to find better evasive feats and couldnt find...

Okay. So if your saying he has good reaction time in the panels provided? I can see that. Behind Luffy, probably the best reaction speed among the SH's.

Especially since before this was before he developed CoO.

He cannot evade at light speed tho. Not even Kizaru moves at light speed and he is literally light.

 

[nik87]

Okay. So if your saying he has good reaction time in the panels provided? I can see that. Behind Luffy, probably the best reaction speed among the SH's.

Especially since before this was before he developed CoO.

He cannot evade at light speed tho. Not even Kizaru moves at light speed and he is literally light.

I agree that those attacks arent light speed as they would literally be instant and undodgeable for anyone but as close as it gets. It makes no sense that air deflected at light speed moves at speed of slug, no? Kizaru's lasers should be at light speed as well but they really arent since Marco wouldnt have time to fly in between and protect WB.
Zoro dodged several air pad canons. Zoro dodged Kuma's laser pre-skip without CoO and in a terrible condition after big battle while Luffy's best feat is dodging Pacifista's lasers post-TS with CoO and in fresh condition. That is a better feat for Zoro clearly...

 

[Pirate Queen]

I agree that those attacks arent light speed as they would literally be instant and undodgeable for anyone but as close as it gets. It makes no sense that air deflected at light speed moves at speed of slug, no? Kizaru's lasers should be at light speed as well but they really arent since Marco wouldnt have time to fly in between and protect WB.
Zoro dodged several air pad canons. Zoro dodged Kuma's laser pre-skip without CoO and in a terrible condition after big battle while Luffy's best feat is dodging Pacifista's lasers post-TS with CoO and in fresh condition. That is a better feat for Zoro clearly...

1st feat:half dead Zoro dodges a 100% Kuma
2nd feat: fresh CoO Luffy dodging Px5 laser

Clearly Zoro has the better feat, but you can't compare the 2.

That's like comparing G4 Luffy splitting a town in half to pre-time skip Zoro splitting a building in half. In this instance Luffy clearly has the better feat, but it's not fair to compare the 2 and doesnt solve anything.

I think the issue I have with people throwing around words like "light speed" without knowing what that actually means.

Ex: I watched a video on youtube that scientifically proved that luffy moved MANY times faster than the speed of light, using both manga and anime to back up the claims in great detail. It's just impossible.

@nik87 I'm not trying to call you out, promise. I was just looking for clarification. I dont have a dog in this current debate going on. Thanks for providing the panels.

 

[nik87]

1st feat:half dead Zoro dodges a 100% Kuma
2nd feat: fresh CoO Luffy dodging Px5 laser

Clearly Zoro has the better feat, but you can't compare the 2.

That's like comparing G4 Luffy splitting a town in half to pre-time skip Zoro splitting a building in half. In this instance Luffy clearly has the better feat, but it's not fair to compare the 2 and doesnt solve anything.

I think the issue I have with people throwing around words like "light speed" without knowing what that actually means.

Ex: I watched a video on youtube that scientifically proved that luffy moved MANY times faster than the speed of light, using both manga and anime to back up the claims in great detail. It's just impossible.

@nik87 I'm not trying to call you out, promise. I was just looking for clarification. I dont have a dog in this current debate going on. Thanks for providing the panels.

What do you mean they are not comparable? They are the same laser. Kizaru's laser incorporated into Pacifistas and Kizaru's lasers are light shots. There isnt anything faster in OP universe if you base it on real-world physics.
It's a fictional world and what should be at light speed can be toned down to allow the characters to dodge it or the characters evasive speed is masively buffed to dodge light speed attacks. However you cut it, that should signify the highest evasive speed feats and in this case it goes in Zoro's favor since it happened pre-TS without CoO while in terrible condition.
If you want to compare the best destructive feats you have to compare the best what both of them have - Town splitter vs Mountain golem slicer.

The point of that feat is that if he can dodge things that are based on light speed(regardless if they really are or not) he will have no trouble dodging Sanji's movement and attack frequency which are incomparable to laser shots and air pad canon. I dont know what Sanji's best evasive feats are but it isnt against light speed based attacks.

 

[Pirate Queen]

What do you mean they are not comparable? They are the same laser. Kizaru's laser incorporated into Pacifistas and Kizaru's lasers are light shots. There isnt anything faster in OP universe if you base it on real-world physics.
It's a fictional world and what should be at light speed can be toned down to allow the characters to dodge it or the characters evasive speed is masively buffed to dodge light speed attacks. However you cut it, that should signify the highest evasive speed feats and in this case it goes in Zoro's favor since it happened pre-TS without CoO while in terrible condition.
If you want to compare the best destructive feats you have to compare the best what both of them have - Town splitter vs Mountain golem slicer.

The point of that feat is that if he can dodge things that are based on light speed(regardless if they really are or not) he will have no trouble dodging Sanji's movement and attack frequency which are incomparable to laser shots and air pad canon. I dont know what Sanji's best evasive feats are but it isnt against light speed based attacks.

It's not comparable because luffy was healthy with CoO and Zoro was half dead without Haki. To compare them you would have to put Luffy in Zoro's shoes at the time.

We dont know how Luffy would have done half dead so you cannot compare.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2019 ---

I'm ignoring the sanji part because his has nothing to do with our discussion. I dont even know how it fits into our situation.

 

[nik87]

We dont know how Luffy would have done half dead so you cannot compare.

Even better for Zoro... Those are the best evasive feats both have, that has to be compared and it goes into Zoro's favor without a doubt.

I'm ignoring the sanji part because his has nothing to do with our discussion. I dont even know how it fits into our situation.

Because I listed those feats in comparison of Sanji vs Zoro and I repeated what the point of it was. You are the one who brought Luffy into it.

 

[jaymizzo]

What do you mean they are not comparable? They are the same laser. Kizaru's laser incorporated into Pacifistas and Kizaru's lasers are light shots. There isnt anything faster in OP universe if you base it on real-world physics.
It's a fictional world and what should be at light speed can be toned down to allow the characters to dodge it or the characters evasive speed is masively buffed to dodge light speed attacks. However you cut it, that should signify the highest evasive speed feats and in this case it goes in Zoro's favor since it happened pre-TS without CoO while in terrible condition.
If you want to compare the best destructive feats you have to compare the best what both of them have - Town splitter vs Mountain golem slicer.

The point of that feat is that if he can dodge things that are based on light speed(regardless if they really are or not) he will have no trouble dodging Sanji's movement and attack frequency which are incomparable to laser shots and air pad canon. I dont know what Sanji's best evasive feats are but it isnt against light speed based attacks.

Zoro cannot dodge attacks that are traveling at light speed. As mentioned before, not even Kizaru travels/moves/attacks at the speed of light.

And no, Zoro does not have the best speed/evasion/attack speed in the manga. Far from it. Luffys G2 Jet pistol is almost instant yet no one is claiming him to be among the fastest in the manga. And don't even start with destructive feats when it comes to Luffy Vs Zoro. You and Moe should continue your back and forth without involving other fandoms.

You can't also go onto say it's not light speed but it is light speed...

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2019 ---

It's not comparable because luffy was healthy with CoO and Zoro was half dead without Haki. To compare them you would have to put Luffy in Zoro's shoes at the time.

We dont know how Luffy would have done half dead so you cannot compare.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2019 ---

I'm ignoring the sanji part because his has nothing to do with our discussion. I dont even know how it fits into our situation.

Yes we do. Lucci, Marine ford, Katakuri etc. It's not like we've never seen Luffy beaten half to death or almost completely exhausted.

He has been stationary once after an attack and that was due to a catatonic state.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Even better for Zoro... Those are the best evasive feats both have, that has to be compared and it goes into Zoro's favor without a doubt.

Because I listed those feats in comparison of Sanji vs Zoro and I repeated what the point of it was. You are the one who brought Luffy into it.

The best evasive feat pre-timeskip was Law's submarine dodging Aokiji's ice and Kizaru's light blasts in marineford....


I repeat, you cant compare the 2 situations. The only similarity between the 2 situations is that they dodged lasers. You cant compare Zoro's feat because no one else has ever been in that situation. You comparing them takes away the context of events surrounding the feat.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 8, 2019 ---

Zoro cannot dodge attacks that are traveling at light speed. As mentioned before, not even Kizaru travels/moves/attacks at the speed of light.

And no, Zoro does not have the best speed/evasion/attack speed in the manga. Far from it. Luffys G2 Jet pistol is almost instant yet no one is claiming him to be among the fastest in the manga. And don't even start with destructive feats when it comes to Luffy Vs Zoro. You and Moe should continue your back and forth without involving other fandoms.

You can't also go onto say it's not light speed but it is light speed...

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2019 ---

Yes we do. Lucci, Marine ford, Katakuri etc. It's not like we've never seen Luffy beaten half to death or almost completely exhausted.

He has been stationary once after an attack and that was due to a catatonic state.

We are talking about Luffy dodging light based attacks.

A half dead luffy has never had to dodge a light based attack. Ever. Zoro has.

 

[nik87]

Zoro cannot dodge attacks that are traveling at light speed. As mentioned before, not even Kizaru travels/moves/attacks at the speed of light.

Well, air pad canons and Pacifista lasers are as close as it gets to light speed and Zoro did dodge them. There is nothing faster.

And no, Zoro does not have the best speed/evasion/attack speed in the manga. Far from it. Luffys G2 Jet pistol is almost instant yet no one is claiming him to be among the fastest in the manga. And don't even start with destructive feats when it comes to Luffy Vs Zoro. You and Moe should continue your back and forth without involving other fandoms.

Who has better evasive speed feats? Rubber based attacks faster than light-based attacks? Wth!
Well, destructivity is comparable, Zoro destroyed a larger surface. Just because Luffy cracked it into 3-4 directions doesnt mean Zoro slicing it in one spot is less destructive.

ou can't also go onto say it's not light speed but it is light speed...

Let me hear your reasoning about how a light shot is dodged then.

The best evasive feat pre-timeskip was Law's submarine dodging Aokiji's ice and Kizaru's light blasts in marineford....

You win!

I repeat, you cant compare the 2 situations. The only similarity between the 2 situations is that they dodged lasers. You cant compare Zoro's feat because no one else has ever been in that situation. You comparing them takes away the context of events surrounding the feat.

Being in bad condition only means that in fresh condition evasion would be better and the opposite for Luffy, however you cut it, it's in Zoro's favor, I dont get how you dont see it...

 

[jaymizzo]

The best evasive feat pre-timeskip was Law's submarine dodging Aokiji's ice and Kizaru's light blasts in marineford....


I repeat, you cant compare the 2 situations. The only similarity between the 2 situations is that they dodged lasers. You cant compare Zoro's feat because no one else has ever been in that situation. You comparing them takes away the context of events surrounding the feat.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 8, 2019 ---

We are talking about Luffy dodging light based attacks.

A half dead luffy has never had to dodge a light based attack. Ever. Zoro has.

A light based attack does not equate to the speed of light. Charging a beam through a laser cannon can take 5mins... The attack is still light based. Saying someone dodged a light based attack with relatively no context at which speed said attack is travelling... A discussion cannot be had.

So no, Zoro does not have better evasive feats in comparison to Luffy.

 

[Pirate Queen]

A light based attack does not equate to the speed of light. Charging a beam through a laser cannon can take 5mins... The attack is still light based. Saying someone dodged a light based attack with relatively no context at which speed said attack is travelling... A discussion cannot be had.

So no, Zoro does not have better evasive feats in comparison to Luffy.

I know Zoro doesnt have better evasive feats than Luffy. That's not the arguement being had. I was just explaining that Zoro dodging a laser cant be compared to Luffy dodging a laser.

I did explain a few posts ago that Kuma's attacks arent light speed. I think we are in agreement on that.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 8, 2019 ---

Ugh. Gotta get back to work.

Have fun with this one guys. Lol

 

[nik87]

Charging a beam through a laser cannon can take 5mins

Nobody talks about charging time, there is nothing to dodge while they charge it. Look at the panels, attacks were already shot. Zoro dodged them in half-dead state. Find a better evasive feat if you can.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Nobody talks about charging time, there is nothing to dodge while they charge it. Look at the panels, attacks were already shot. Zoro dodged them in half-dead state. Find a better evasive feat if you can.

Luffy bleeding heavily, with half his abdomen missing still moving at speeds capable of dodging a Yonko Commander is FAR more impressive than Zoro dodging a laser that most certainly isnt moving at light speed. He has not mastered FS at this point and continued to fight for several hours afterwards, continuing to dodge.

Especially take into account that Kuma was never trying to kill Luffy or his crew due to his ties to Dragon. Kuma was able to gauge Zoro and attacked without the intent to go all out. He was testing Zoro, not trying to kill him.

Luffy far and away has better evasive feats than Zoro.

 

[Brandish μ]

I don't see Zoro being more agile/quick than Luffy.

Luffy's improved observation Haki should set him clearly apart now right?

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't see Zoro being more agile/quick than Luffy.

Luffy's improved observation Haki should set him clearly apart now right?

Zoro isn't. It's very obvious at this point. I think bias has much to do with it, but I can understand how one can come to the conclusion that Zoro has more impressive evasive feats because he dodged a "light speed" attack, it's just inaccurate because to dodge a light speed attack you would have to evade at a higher speed.

Zoro cannot move at light speed let alone faster than light speed, even at full health.

If we are saying that Zoro can evade light speed attacks you have to call into question every single injury he has ever sustained for that point to the current chapter.

He dodged Kuma's laser, but couldn't dodge Killer? Even despite being distracted, Killer wasnt moving at light speed so Zoro should have ample time to dodge. This logic is of course, ridiculous.

There is no way of saying Zoro evades better than Luffy without bias.

 

[Brandish μ]

Zoro isn't. It's very obvious at this point. I think bias has much to do with it, but I can understand how one can come to the conclusion that Zoro has more impressive evasive feats because he dodged a "light speed" attack, it's just inaccurate because to dodge a light speed attack you would have to evade at a higher speed.

Zoro cannot move at light speed let alone faster than light speed, even at full health.

If we are saying that Zoro can evade light speed attacks you have to call into question every single injury he has ever sustained for that point to the current chapter.

He dodged Kuma's laser, but couldn't dodge Killer? Even despite being distracted, Killer wasnt moving at light speed so Zoro should have ample time to dodge. This logic is of course, ridiculous.

There is no way of saying Zoro evades better than Luffy without bias.

I think there'll be times where characters will get evasive feats, where it might see they are insanely fast as well. Plot/story elements will make this happen so they don't die or something.

For mine, when characters have abilities that improve speed/agility/awareness, that's when I start to think of them as fast/evasive compared to the majority of other strong characters. Because it's these guys who should move faster than anyone. Like Katakuri, he was able to turn his paramecia into a logia basically, because of his observation haki, and therefore has immense evasiveness. Luffy should be there I think.

 

[nik87]

Luffy bleeding heavily, with half his abdomen missing still moving at speeds capable of dodging a Yonko Commander is FAR more impressive than Zoro dodging a laser that most certainly isnt moving at light speed. He has not mastered FS at this point and continued to fight for several hours afterwards, continuing to dodge.

Especially take into account that Kuma was never trying to kill Luffy or his crew due to his ties to Dragon. Kuma was able to gauge Zoro and attacked without the intent to go all out. He was testing Zoro, not trying to kill him.

Luffy far and away has better evasive feats than Zoro.

No, dodging whatever a man made of mochi can do is not more impressive than dodging laser shot. Unless it was specifically confirmed that Katakuri's attacks travel at speed of light or anywhere close, they arent as fast as laser shots.
Also, Luffy didnt dodge anything after abdomen spear hit.

Kuma leaving Zoro, who is almost dead, to take on all the pain and fatigue that Luffy sustained surely doesn't sound like he didnt mean to kill him and also confirmed that Zoro would die...

I don't see Zoro being more agile/quick than Luffy.
Luffy's improved observation Haki should set him clearly apart now right?

I am basing my arguments on what was shown in the manga and that was the most impressive evasive feat shown so far among all Strawhats.

Zoro isn't. It's very obvious at this point. I think bias has much to do with it, but I can understand how one can come to the conclusion that Zoro has more impressive evasive feats because he dodged a "light speed" attack, it's just inaccurate because to dodge a light speed attack you would have to evade at a higher speed.

Zoro cannot move at light speed let alone faster than light speed, even at full health.

If we are saying that Zoro can evade light speed attacks you have to call into question every single injury he has ever sustained for that point to the current chapter.

He dodged Kuma's laser, but couldn't dodge Killer? Even despite being distracted, Killer wasnt moving at light speed so Zoro should have ample time to dodge. This logic is of course, ridiculous.

There is no way of saying Zoro evades better than Luffy without bias.

I dont know if one can be less biased if they base their arguments on proof from manga and logic of real-world physics...
Unless you want to tell that laser shots travel at the speed of slug, well, I would like to see that argument.

Like Brandish said, the plot elements will make characters do incredible things in order to survive so whether that laser is at light speed indeed or not, Zoro dodged in half dead state and is the most impressive evasive feat provided in the manga that I know of.
Deflecting air at light speed and the same air isnt traveling at light speed doesnt make sense either and is more connected to light speed than anything Katakuri showed.

Luffy dodged the same lasers and yet didnt dodge Katakuri's power mochi hits which are significantly slower. For the purpose of the story, such things happen. No need to question all the other instances for Zoro, Luffy or anyone else but if you want to find the best instances for evasive maneuvers, there you have it.

Zoro is also a record holder for attack speed(frequency) if we take the panel as measurement since in manga there is no time.
1. Santoryu Yasha Garasu - 63 hits per panel
2. Yasakani no Magatama - 40 hits per panel
3. Gomu Gomu no Storm - ~26 hits per panel