Discussion Eurasia Enne Zahard Discussion Thread

[Aegrus]

Is there a tl;dr for this whole Enne Irregular discussion?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Is there a tl;dr for this whole Enne Irregular discussion?

Yes, in short: I don't know what an irregular is.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Yes, in short: I don't know what an irregular is.

TBH, I don't think anyone but SIU has anything more than a rough Idea.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

TBH, I don't think anyone but SIU has anything more than a rough Idea.

This has kind of been my point all along, but some here are more hard-line about the little we do know.

 

[toil]

Thinking it over more, I think the Enne derail has something to it.

Thought experiment: Zahard and the other 12 enter, stop climbing before making the immortality contract (or anything similar). They pair off (or whatevs). Would their children be regular or irregular?

We're supposed to think the answer is "they'd be regulars, duh" but, is that really reasonable, let alone true?

It would make a lot of sense for part of the immortality contract to be "you can live here forever, as long as your children are bound by the rules of the tower" (in other words, are regulars). Then we get V's death fitting into Baam's unclear irregularity: being born in the tower, Baam's not supposed to be an irregular. We think it has something to do with his being dead and picking up a soul from the outside, but maybe it's because he's pure-blood great family and because V, in particular, didn't take that contract and thus the descendants constraint doesn't apply to Baam?

Bringing it back to Enne, then, under the above thought she'd be potentially "irregular capable" in a sense, and again perhaps that's something that can be "unlocked" down the line.

It also gets into an interesting angle with Hendo, because if Hendo didn't get the first contract, it's possible his descendants—should they exist—might have different constraints placed upon them, Sure, they're short lived, but you see my point.

Hadn't thought this hard about it before but if you posit that "descendants of irregulars should also be irregular barring outside intervention/deals/etc. by the parent irregulars" then it opens up a huge range of new possibilities. Food for thought, not convinced, but it's interesting.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Thinking it over more, I think the Enne derail has something to it.

Prepare to be dog-piled.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 10, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 10, 2019 ---

Also, I think you're enjoying the possibilities that play within the rules, same as I, but moreover I'm more interested in your thoughts on V.

We don't know why he denied taking the immortality contract, but it's heavily implied that any and possibly ALL contracts are more binding than anything. I've made the comparison to Midas' touch before. Perhaps V was the only one that was being selfless and was willing to think about the next generation.

 

[toil]

@Jammin: now that you're caught up maybe moving the Enne side conversation to a new thread is a good idea? I didn't want to ping you before you'd reached this chapter, but it's a very off-topic discussion for chapter 433.

I'm more interested in your thoughts on V

I think just looking at it logically, if irregulars are free from the tower rules then, yeah, the child of two irregulars also being an irregular would have some logic to it. Ignoring Baam, none of the pure-irregular offspring we know of appear to be irregulars, though, so either "children of irregulars are irregulars" is just wrong or there's another factor in play. Baam's an irregular despite being (originally) born in the tower, of course, and in his case we have multiple candidates for that "another factor": he could be an irregular due to being reborn outside the tower, he could be an irregular because he's got some special soul from outside the tower, he could be an irregular simply due to the will of that outside god, and then there's V.

So far as we know, V didn't take the immortality contract (and, unlike Hendo, didn't take a make-up contract, either, also so far as we know). We'll know when SIU tells us, but until it seems fair to speculate that V not taking the contract is tied to why Baam's an irregular despite being born in the tower. I already was inclined to assume that the "immortality contract" is more of a "status quo preservation contract", like "we'll let you guys hang around in the tower forever in exchange for your running things in certain ways", and "regularizing" your offspring seems almost necessary to make that promise (how can it last if your offspring are Enne-powerful and not bound by tower rules?).

This is all just trying to use logic to fill in some gaps without crossing the known rules and established facts, but I think it has some internal consistency to it. It also offers a possible explanation for why V didn't take the contract: I've assumed he had a good reason, it could be anything, but being motivated by something tied-into this logic could work.

It also opens up another angle on Hendo: he (belatedly?) got his own contract. If the general theory is right, though, there's room for a few possibilities: perhaps the children he had (with tower residents?) prior to his contract are less-constrained (even if not "full irregulars"), perhaps the constraints placed upon his post-contract descendants are different (could be weaker, could be stronger, etc.)? Perhaps the cursed people are the descendants of his pre-contract children, and they have the curse placed upon them to prevent them from making full use of (what's left of) their less-constrained status? Perhaps his having sired in-tower children pre-contract is why he was denied the contract in the first place ("you're already screwing it up?", basically).

To wrap it up, then, contracts do seem as iron-clad as anything in the tower, but Baam isn't bound by them (unless he opts in, like that "shackle" line in S1). I mean, let's not forget that the whole reason FUG is interested in Baam is he's free to ignore the immortality contract, kill Zahard, and all that. I've also tended to expect that Baam will find a way to cancel the contract, purely from a narrative standpoint: right now only Baam can kill any of the family heads, and, like, between them and Zahard there's 11 "boss fights". Having Baam find a way to cancel the contract and then letting the FUG slayers handle the remaining family heads seems logical, whether the contract ends with Zahard's death or if getting it cancelled is a pre-requisite to fight Zahard.

What I'm trying to say is that, sure, I doubt Baam is going to meet Enne, touch her, and then have his spell-breaking touch immediately turn her into the irregular she "should have been", but I can see her getting irregularized (or informing him of the possibility). What's not so clear is what being irregularized would mean in practical terms, though, if it's happening only after the immortality contract is lifted: what we understand of irregulars is that they're able to use shinsoo without contract and they're able to ignore/override the immortality contract. If the immortality contract got cancelled then "anyone" could maybe go after the family heads—in principle, at least—so the benefit a newly-irregularized Enne would gain would be, what, a freer hand with shinsoo? Seems like there'd need to be more to it. Maybe with a princess like here there's an extra benefit because it lifts whatever control Zahard has on them?

But, overall, I think there's probably something to this line of reasoning, but I suspect exactly what there is to it will hinge on fine details and significant information we don't currently know.

 

[Jammin]

This is a thread for discussion of the sealed Princess Eurasia Enne Zahard.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

lol thanks @Jammin

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Irregulars are described as people who both come from the outside AND opened the tower with their own power. Be it consciously like the OG13, Enryu, Phanta and Urek, or unconsciously like Baam.

While Enne may defacto fit the first condition, she certainly doesn't fit the second, so she isn't an irregular.

As to why Baam who was born in the tower still reaps irregular benefits, perhaps:
A: He was born and left the tower before Zahard created the regular system and imposed contracts upon all tower residents.
B: The act of leaving the tower renders contracts null and void.
C: Death nullifies contracts. (Would be most poetic, Zahad's killing Baam gives him the means and motivation to kill him.) (Harry Potter/ Voldemorte vibes.)

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I think just looking at it logically, if irregulars are free from the tower rules then, yeah, the child of two irregulars also being an irregular would have some logic to it.

Right - forget the term 'irregular' as that's only relevant to crossing the threshold to indicate a place of origin. What is important is how the TOWER/admin would treat such a child as a full-blood from outsiders (not originating in the tower though possibly born in the tower). Not what Zahard's empire labels them. If people need a term to come to terms - call them (full-bloods) 'non-irregulars' or 'chosen irregulars' (as opposed to 'unchosen irregulars'). 'Irregular' is only a label that is pertinent after Zahard's empire was founded and the rules of regulars being chosen to climb methodology was CREATED. So what constitutes being exempt from tower contracts existed before Z came and will exist after he's disposed of. What matters most is where a person is from and how this affects their legal status (much like any nation's immigration and naturalization policies in real life) - who cares what they are called?

Ignoring Baam, none of the pure-irregular offspring we know of appear to be irregulars, though, so either "children of irregulars are irregulars" is just wrong or there's another factor in play.

Admittedly we don't yet know how they are classified, but I agree it is less important about how they are labeled than what, if any, traits they inherit (legal and/or physical).

Baam's an irregular despite being (originally) born in the tower,

And possibly in addition to...

of course, and in his case we have multiple candidates for that "another factor": he could be an irregular due to being reborn outside the tower, he could be an irregular because he's got some special soul from outside the tower, he could be an irregular simply due to the will of that outside god, and then there's V.

I think it's the difference between thinking there is something inherently magical about crossing the doorway to the tower in the first place (possible) and understanding that the only importance is that they come from outside the tower itself as a 'race' (for better lack of a term). It is merely a legal status issue (given tower contracts) and not so much the imparting of magical abilities once one enters. At least IMO until more data comes to light. The emphasis is largely on being a stranger in a strange land and legal status NOT being turned into a magical being just because you enter the tower. If some could come to understand it is merely a legal status issue, maybe they'd be more open to wondering how odd cases are handled in the tower where one could ALSO be exempt from tower contracts. Off the top of my head one way this could happen is, for whatever reason, the admin release someone from all tower contracts. It would seem they have this authority (maybe only Headon). So, in theory a regular could be born in the tower yet still be gifted exemption if it is in the admin's purview. Why they would do this is besides the point. The point is there are other ways to possibly be exempt from tower contracts. Another example could be a creation of Gong Bang that is artificial. Perhaps this is why GoG can use shinwonryu, albeit only in HT. Since Gong Bang also 'exists outside the tower' it seems they have the ability to create a being outside the rules on a LIMITED basis, perhaps on a tower-wide basis as well (Akryung?).

Then, legal status aside, there is the fact that children of FH's, much like any other fantasy genre and IRL, inherit physical traits of their parents. If Enne's and Baam's and possibly others' parents are both FHs, then they should have full-blooded qualities as far as physical traits and strengths.

I've said it a few times, but SIU makes kind of a big deal about Enne's lineage. I don't think it's an accident she has ranked so highly. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that Adori is also a full-blood, maybe Baek and who knows else.

I think it's also safe to say that Enne is stronger than both her parents. It's probably the Z blood that pushes her over the top, but that is notable that she's basically the genetic chimera of 3 irregulars. She's not ranked 7th based on clout or current status as she's both sealed and persona non grata/effectively disowned. So it is strength alone that puts her at 7. Not that any 'regular' - princess or no - could compete with the status of an original companion/family head in the first place. And if FHs are unlimited in their potential and fully actualized then how could a mere regular be stronger??

So far as we know, V didn't take the immortality contract (and, unlike Hendo, didn't take a make-up contract, either, also so far as we know). We'll know when SIU tells us, but until it seems fair to speculate that V not taking the contract is tied to why Baam's an irregular despite being born in the tower. I already was inclined to assume that the "immortality contract" is more of a "status quo preservation contract", like "we'll let you guys hang around in the tower forever in exchange for your running things in certain ways", and "regularizing" your offspring seems almost necessary to make that promise (how can it last if your offspring are Enne-powerful and not bound by tower rules?).

I, like everyone else, have no idea but suspect you're on the right track. Though V would have to have known what's up when they were still climbing at floor 100. I still think every and all contracts in the tower are limiting - like the banquet Persephone ate from in Hades. The more contracts you take the more cemented you are in the tower ('shackles' or 'chains'). Interesting that Arlen decided to take the poison apple/golden touch - though I think we both figure she found a way around this in bargaining with 'the true ruler of the tower' in Headon - who probably has the discretion to break contracts.

Most contracts have an 'out'. A mutual cancellation. A performance clause. A sunset clause. A buy-out clause. Who knows if Headon, mobile to any floor (implies he has shinsoo control on every floor as well, equal to or greater than floor guardians), can cancel the 100F contract as a 'master' contract holder, or if Arlen reversed her way down the tower giving up the contract right to use shinsoo. Clearly, if she did exit the most logical is 1F as the other direction is blocked. Headon just HAD to have some involvement in her leaving. A buyout in the form of a sacrifice or alchemist 'equivalent exchange' as you've brought up. Voila, she's finally outside, although who knows what she had to give up to do so.

This is all just trying to use logic to fill in some gaps without crossing the known rules and established facts, but I think it has some internal consistency to it. It also offers a possible explanation for why V didn't take the contract: I've assumed he had a good reason, it could be anything, but being motivated by something tied-into this logic could work.

Agreed.

It also opens up another angle on Hendo: he (belatedly?) got his own contract. If the general theory is right, though, there's room for a few possibilities: perhaps the children he had (with tower residents?) prior to his contract are less-constrained (even if not "full irregulars"), perhaps the constraints placed upon his post-contract descendants are different (could be weaker, could be stronger, etc.)? Perhaps the cursed people are the descendants of his pre-contract children, and they have the curse placed upon them to prevent them from making full use of (what's left of) their less-constrained status? Perhaps his having sired in-tower children pre-contract is why he was denied the contract in the first place ("you're already screwing it up?", basically).

I think one clue is the addendum that Hendo's kids CANNOT become immortal (implying that other FH's children CAN become immortal - or his previous kids if any). If they didn't have the ability to become immortal, this clause wouldn't be necessary. Immortality + contracts - both as a blessing and a curse - is central to what the hell is going on with all this, and this extends to pretty much every important character. That's why the nuances - which haven't been explained - are so important and I can't imagine it is as clear-cut as some here seem to think.

To note though Evan says only the 10FH and Z are immortal. If he's right in that assertion.

To wrap it up, then, contracts do seem as iron-clad as anything in the tower, but Baam isn't bound by them (unless he opts in, like that "shackle" line in S1). I mean, let's not forget that the whole reason FUG is interested in Baam is he's free to ignore the immortality contract, kill Zahard, and all that. I've also tended to expect that Baam will find a way to cancel the contract, purely from a narrative standpoint: right now only Baam can kill any of the family heads, and, like, between them and Zahard there's 11 "boss fights". Having Baam find a way to cancel the contract and then letting the FUG slayers handle the remaining family heads seems logical, whether the contract ends with Zahard's death or if getting it cancelled is a pre-requisite to fight Zahard.

FUG/HR only seemed/seems interested in Baam to take on Zahard specifically. This, combined with the fact that Z was the only one to take a secondary contract really makes me think that FH's are capable of being killed already. If not, why would they 'get anxious' when a new slayer is announced as SIU put it in the bio for FUG? Z's secondary contract is what made him invulnerable to tower residents and king at the same time (both things are interrelated anyways) - and the FH's DON'T have this contract per SIU. The obvious implication is that FHs are immortal only but not invulnerable (can be kiiled). I just think the slayers so far haven't gotten strong enough to take their targets on yet (not to mention all slots aren't even filled), plus Luslec probably knows if one FH is targeted he'll have to deal with the pile-on that follows. And even if they CAN kill FH's, it is moot until they can finally kill Zahard. Best to take out the trash all at once.

What I'm trying to say is that, sure, I doubt Baam is going to meet Enne, touch her, and then have his spell-breaking touch immediately turn her into the irregular she "should have been", but I can see her getting irregularized (or informing him of the possibility). What's not so clear is what being irregularized would mean in practical terms, though, if it's happening only after the immortality contract is lifted: what we understand of irregulars is that they're able to use shinsoo without contract and they're able to ignore/override the immortality contract. If the immortality contract got cancelled then "anyone" could maybe go after the family heads—in principle, at least—so the benefit a newly-irregularized Enne would gain would be, what, a freer hand with shinsoo? Seems like there'd need to be more to it. Maybe with a princess like here there's an extra benefit because it lifts whatever control Zahard has on them?

Go on about the Baam touching Enne part...

It seems strength is truly the only thing that matters. A stronger spell can dispel a weaker one. A contract can be broker with a stronger spell too. 'Immortal' and 'invulnerable' guardians can be killed by a simply stronger being (Enryu). It's possible that the admin are only invulnerable to regulars in the first place, hence they offer contracts to bind irregulars.

But, overall, I think there's probably something to this line of reasoning, but I suspect exactly what there is to it will hinge on fine details and significant information we don't currently know.

It's likely this thread won't be relevant for a literal decade IRL, if ever...

 

[toil]

Right - forget the term 'irregular' as that's only relevant to crossing the threshold to indicate a place of origin.

To keep everything crisp how about using "bound" and "unbound" to refer to "bound by tower rules" and "not bound by tower rules", and leaving irregular/regular in their original meanings?

It is merely a legal status issue

This is the crux of it, for sure, and I think it runs deep. For example, if it turns out that the in-tower existences are somehow fake/inferior/not real, it undercuts the significance of backstories like Hoaquin's devouring billions of souls. Until proven otherwise we seemingly need to assume that "legal status" is what matters.

For Arlen exiting, workshop, and all that, one other card in play is that it seems that there are multiple outside worlds: Urek and Phanta are from the same place, which apparently has skies, stars, and all that. Arlen seems to be from that place, or a similar place. Rachel's world is either some sad-sack mole-person/cave-dweller settlement literally under the aboveground world(s) of Urek, Arlen and so on, or it's some other world entirely. After the hidden floor I lean towards other world, though.

Too soon to know how this matters but "I can't send you home, but I could send you here" could be part of how she made it outside again.

I've said it a few times, but SIU makes kind of a big deal about Enne's lineage. I don't think it's an accident she has ranked so highly. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that Adori is also a full-blood, maybe Baek and who knows else.

To play devil's advocate, though, her lineage is Gustang and Eurasia. Zahard aside, Gustang is actively involved in Baam's journey (details murky, but he's there). Eurasia, herself, isn't, but there's still whatever "family scheme" the Phonsekal offshoot is plotting (via Irure, perhaps eventually Lauroe). So I lean towards her type of lineage being significant, but it's potentially just that both sides of her lineage are also seemingly involved in Baam's quest (to some extent). Just sayin'.

I agree that some of the other big names we've heard will turn out to have fancy lineages, but don't have much to say beyond that.

FUG/HR only seemed/seems interested in Baam to take on Zahard specifically. This, combined with the fact that Z was the only one to take a secondary contract really makes me think that FH's are capable of being killed already.

I think this gets into immortality vs invulnerability. Reading into it a bit, the impression I had is that Arlen could "kill" herself, apparently, except she'd just heal up again. You get the idea: stab yourself, bleed out, pass out, wake up "back to normal"; jump into the woodchipper, make a mess, lose consciousness, wake up "back to normal"; shoot yourself into the sun, be ripped apart into subatomic particles, lose consciousness, wake up "back to normal". With that "immortal, not invulnerable" status a powerful-enough regular could "kill" you, it seems, possibly over-and-over. It'd suck even though—or because?—you wouldn't die (or wouldn't stay dead?).

Whereas Zahard may be invulnerable proper, thus needing Baam. This makes sense, but how true it is remains to be seen.

It's likely this thread won't be relevant for a literal decade IRL, if ever...

On the other hand, Maschenny is part of Enne's story and Gustang is part of Enne's story. I could see her appearing in years, not decades, so there's that.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

I've said this previously and Will say It again: Jinsung is at same prison facility as Anne Jahad. Adori also set up a trap to get Bam and co., and everything Will come Full circle as cornered Bam will take refuge in Anne's Room and unseal her, getting an Ally that can handle Adori and once again surviving Jahad's army through sheer luck and friends.

The Princess arc Will be right afterwards when Jahad's army gets sidetracked and It becomes a Princess Holy War.

Anne's role is to reveal the truth that Garam didn't Tell. She won't become stronger than she already is, she won't gain Irregular status, she Will be Bam's final Guardian Angel, the one to keep him safe when neither Jinsung, Yuri or Evankhell Will be able to, cause she is above almost anyone, except Jahad and the irregulars. That's her role.

Mazino is ofc stronger, but he has his own business and has never been the Guardian type. EAJ Will be the one to take Bam from Yuri's hands Just as Yuri taken Bam from Androssi.

 

[toil]

I've said this previously and Will say It again: Jinsung is at same prison facility as Anne Jahad. Adori also set up a trap to get Bam and co., and everything Will come Full circle as cornered Bam will take refuge in Anne's Room and unseal her, getting an Ally that can handle Adori and once again surviving Jahad's army through sheer luck and friends.

That’s the direction I hope SIU goes, too. I ain’t saying it’s what he’ll do, I’m saying it’s what I hope he’ll do.

 

[kkck]

I don't think jinsung is necessarily at the same place as enne. Isn't the location a secret? Bam probably will pay enne a visit when he finally gets around to collecting the 13 month series to create the tower's key.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

I don't think jinsung is necessarily at the same place as enne. Isn't the location a secret? Bam probably will pay enne a visit when he finally gets around to collecting the 13 month series to create the tower's key.

I think Princess war Will be the moment he gathers many of 13 months, also finding out what they do. And Princess war requires Anne free, only she can defeat Adori. Adori has Golden November, Mascheny has Yellow May, and we know Bam Will Win Yuri's bet and get that one. Along with Garam's, that's 6/13 iirc: Black March, Green April, Yellow May, Blue August, Golden November, Colorless December. He might get Arie Princess involved for Red October too, and we get past 50% with 7/13, starting a 13 months gathering Quest by Bam, the Frodo of ToG.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

There's a few problems. Sept is MIA and Undecimber is held by someone never distributed, probably by Zahard. And, yeah, Enne is still sealed in secret place.

I wonder what the bet Mas made with Yuri over Green April??