Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Rain Spectre]

Dragon Ball is more popular now then ever before. The latest movie is the highest grossing DB movie to date. It was literally in the top 5 domestic movie weekend in the US, which literally no anime movie has ever accomplished before, AS A LIMITED RELEASE. There was literally crowds of thousands in the streets that watched the final Super episodes in South America.

No, Dragon Ball Super isn't just marketing. That's the most stupidly reductive argument I think I've ever heard. It's been 20+ years since the manga concluded, and it's only gained popularity since.

...That just says there's a lot of people who like Dragon Ball. Which, you know, isn't surprising. This is about how a series like Dragon Ball could never take off today, not because it's too similar, but because the meta has changed too drastically.

 

[animeexpert]

That's is the trope of "Seinfield is unfunny".

I don't watch sinfield so I dont get ur quote.. sorry what do you mean?

 

[westabyss]

...Because they don't really need to be innovated? Much of the ideas that battle manga are built around have more or less been finalised by 2010 or so. Now it's just finding new ways to express them. I really don't see what's wrong exactly. It's not exactly a "new" point either, even Nakano has said as much.

Also, I notice that you only mention series from the 80s in the latter paragraph. That kinda proves how meaningless it is, because the 90s already were built on the prior series, showing the point has been moot for decades.

I am saying in the former paragraph that the 80s manga were influenced by former manga of 60s,70s but they also had a mix of influences outside of that which i dont see now, which is basically my second paragraph. Its all about taking the genre of battle manga to newer heights. I guess thats where our viewpoints differ. I think battle manga has been kinda stale since 2010 and there are still ideas where you can take them while you think that the ideas are already finalized and you just have to use those and make them better.

Also i never said my argument was new or had to be new, i was just getting my thoughts out.

I also wanted to add something to my former post, not anything related to your post. Of course its not always easy to differentiate generations. For example when DB was running, there was already YYH in the magazine which was clearly influenced by it. So is it the new generation or the old or someting inbetween? Time is seamless, so there is certainly a point to be made that its hard to distinguish eras and where they start and end.

 

[animeexpert]

Sorry but BLack Clover is the king of shonen, this has been proven countless times both in comparison to its predecessors but also in comparison to its contemporaries. Its the closest thing to a level up of the previous king, Naruto, that we can ever get.

For your other point, One Piece can't even revolutionize a brown paper bag so saying that it revolutionized manga and those others didn't is just plain baffling, stunning, shocking, and a bona fide lie.

Lastly if you're looking for something that has revolutionized manga, then going for a traditional and conventional action manga than shonen jump is probably not the most optimal place to search. HeroAca follows all superhero comic and hot blooded boys action trends to a tee, Haikyuu!! follows every standard sports series trend, which its difficult or impossible to actually do something more there beyond focusing more on life stuff and less on sports club dynamics and numerous other stories are just the same plots just with different Character Models, Environmental Artists, and Writing Prompt Randomizers used for arcs.

Well one piece isnt for nothing in the big 3, thanks to one piece artists arent scared anymore to try something different. Oda got crowned in his era for making something silly as one piece so he pretty much paved the way with "do what you want, dont be scared cuz our culture said so"

 

[Halloween]

...That just says there's a lot of people who like Dragon Ball. Which, you know, isn't surprising. This is about how a series like Dragon Ball could never take off today, not because it's too similar, but because the meta has changed too drastically.

You really reek of someone trying to desperately pass themself off as an authority on manga knowledge, but failing to do so.

There's nothing inherently incompatible about DB that wouldn't allow it to succeed today. This isn't like comparing Pong to Fortnite. There's nothing inherently archaic about anything DB did that popular series now somehow do better.

DB's action, art and characterization still hold up, even now. So no, I don't think DB would fail today, even ignoring that it changed the landscape of battle shonen. Battle shonen is what it is today because of DB (well, and a few others, like Saint Seiya, FotNS, etc). This isn't something you can view in a vacuum.

 

[Rain Spectre]

I am saying in the former paragraph that the 80s manga were influenced by former manga of 60s,70s but they also had a mix of influences outside of that which i dont see now, which is basically my second paragraph. Its all about taking the genre of battle manga to newer heights. I guess thats where our viewpoints differ. I think battle manga has been kinda stale since 2010 and there are still ideas where you can take them while you think that the ideas are already finalized and you just have to use those and make them better.

Also i never said my argument was new or had to be new, i was just getting my thoughts out.

I also wanted to add something to my former post, not anything related to your post. Of course its not always easy to differentiate generations. For example when DB was running, there was already YYH in the magazine which was clearly influenced by it. So is it the new generation or the old or someting inbetween? Time is seamless, so there is certainly a point to be made that its hard to distinguish eras and where they start and end.

To me, this is how I divide it:

-Early Years: 1968-1983
-Golden Age: 1983-1996 (Beginning of North Star to end of Slam Dunk)
-Big 3: 1997-2014 (Beginning of One Piece to end of Naruto)
-Neo-Jump: 2014-Present (Beginning of My Hero Academia to now)

 

[Ctkk]

It's a lot of shifts in the meta driving things, much of them caused by the Big 3. I go into more detail in this thread:

Yeah, no. It's true that Bleach was basically aimless in the beginning, but the start of Naruto is very similar to MHA (well, the other way around, really, but you get what I mean) : short arc to establish the main characters + another arc to show the dangers of the world + tournament with expanded main cast, it just takes more chapters(which I guess maybe wouldn't be appreciated nowadays, but...if these series came out nowadays, maybe they'll be paced differently. This is kind of a meaningless point. It's like saying that Casablanca wouldn't work out today because it's in black and white and now everything is in color.). And Naruto arguably got earlier into plot-heavy stuff and hardcore conflicts, because the Chunnin exams with filled with conspiracies and all that. By comparison, The Sports Festival was exclusively a tournament.

And One Piece had already introduced two crewmates by Volume 1, as well as established the premise and the end goal and the general way the series would work (visit new island, meet new member, fight some villain). All of the major East Blue arcs are there to establish the main cast, they're not just random adventures. And by Baratie we are already getting big world-building with Mihawk's introduction. Then again, maybe One Piece doesn't really belong in this comparison because Oda did have a very clear idea of what to do with his series (as opposed to Kubo and Kishimoto). It really says a lot about One Piece that there's very few things you can look back and say 'that didn't matter'. No, after 900+ chapters, almost everything that's happened is relevant one way or the other.

 

[westabyss]

This was the Big 3 in 2002. Yu-gi-oh was so huge that year in the entire planet. Also, based Prince of Tennis.

Bleach entered the Big-3 in 2004. 2003 was One Piece, Naruto, and Eyeshield21.

Prince of Tennis gets a lot of unneccesary hate in the west because a lot of people in the west think that PoT is supposed to be serious and its bad because its unrealistic while the japanese view it more as a gag series and have fun with what crazy super techniques Konomi is coming up with.

 

[Rain Spectre]

You really reek of someone trying to desperately pass themself off as an authority on manga knowledge, but failing to do so.

There's nothing inherently incompatible about DB that wouldn't allow it to succeed today. This isn't like comparing Pong to Fortnite. There's nothing inherently archaic about anything DB did that popular series now somehow do better.

DB's action, art and characterization still hold up, even now. So no, I don't think DB would fail today, even ignoring that it changed the landscape of battle shonen. Battle shonen is what it is today because of DB (well, and a few others, like Saint Seiya, FotNS, etc). This isn't something you can view in a vacuum.

Why are we even talking about Dragon Ball? The idea was about the Big 3, and frankly the idea that Jump has evolved past what Dragon Ball did is basically simple knowledge at this point.

Yeah, no. It's true that Bleach was basically aimless in the beginning, but the start of Naruto is very similar to MHA (well, the other way around, really, but you get what I mean) : short arc to establish the main characters + another arc to show the dangers of the world + tournament with expanded main cast, it just takes more chapters(which I guess maybe wouldn't be appreciated nowadays, but...if these series came out nowadays, maybe they'll be paced differently. This is kind of a meaningless point. It's like saying that Casablanca wouldn't work out today because it's in black and white and now everything is in color.). And Naruto arguably got earlier into plot-heavy stuff and hardcore conflicts, because the Chunnin exams with filled with conspiracies and all that. By comparison, The Sports Festival was exclusively a tournament.

And One Piece had already introduced two crewmates by Volume 1, as well as established the premise and the end goal and the general way the series would work (visit new island, meet new member, fight some villain). All of the major East Blue arcs are there to establish the main cast, they're not just random adventures. And by Baratie we are already getting big world-building with Mihawk's introduction. Then again, maybe One Piece doesn't really belong in this comparison because Oda did have a very clear idea of what to do with his series (as opposed to Kubo and Kishimoto). It really says a lot about One Piece that there's very few things you can look back and say 'that didn't matter'. No, after 900+ chapters, almost everything that's happened is relevant one way or the other.

Congrats on missing my points. My point is that the early narrative were far too simple and slow for the modern environment, and would've killed interest before it even begun. With the Chuunin Exams VS the Sports Festival for example, you ignore that the exams spanned the course of about 90 chapters, more than four times the size of the latter. Likewise, Mihawk and all the implications brought on by that were only a full year into OP's run, compare that to where Jujutsu is at the same approximate point.

Prince of Tennis gets a lot of unneccesary hate in the west because a lot of people in the west think that PoT is supposed to be serious and its bad because its unrealistic while the japanese view it more as a gag series and have fun with what crazy super techniques Konomi is coming up with.

Wait, so Prince of Tennis is only liked ironically in Japan? That...says a lot.

 

[Nemesis]

I mean, DBS is just marketing? Man, DBS ressurrected Dragon Ball after 2 decades with it losing popularity in it's products. The bump in sales for the franchise to Toei, Bandai Namco, Shueisha and so on are huge pre and post the series. Don't forget that GT and Kai also existed and they struggled with it in the market.

I don't have the numbers with me but I remember how different the number began and how everything got huge for those companies and at how interest on the franchise got bigger compared to what it was. If there's one franchise in the 2010s that had such thing was DB.

 

[westabyss]

To me, this is how I divide it:

-Early Years: 1968-1983
-Golden Age: 1983-1996 (Beginning of North Star to end of Slam Dunk)
-Big 3: 1997-2014 (Beginning of One Piece to end of Naruto)
-Neo-Jump: 2014-Present (Beginning of My Hero Academia to now)

Which era does Kenshin belong then? Thats what im getting at. There are always hybrids which are in two eras or maybe inbetween because time doesn't divide itself in eras, its hard to point the exact time where something changes.

Also i think the Big 3 era starts somewhere mid00s. Naruto didn't even start 1997 and Bleach far from it. The time where the Big 3 really gained control over Jump was like much later in the mid00s. To say that everything from 1997 is the Big 3 era is kinda putting Yugioh, PoT, HxH and more under the rug.

 

[Rain Spectre]

Which era does Kenshin belong then? Thats what im getting at. There are always hybrids which are in two eras or maybe inbetween because time doesn't divide itself in eras, its hard to point the exact time where something changes.

Also i think the Big 3 era starts somewhere mid00s. Naruto didn't even start 1997 and Bleach far from it. The time where the Big 3 really gained control over Jump was like much later in the mid00s. To say that everything from 1997 is the Big 3 era is kinda putting Yugioh, PoT, HxH and more under the rug.

Yeah, those kind of examples exist. It's something you kinda just have to debate, honestly. I just use the eras because it's neater.

As for the Big 3 thing, it's just a name. I'm not arguing that a ton of series had crucial roles over that time period, just that, when I think about that stint of time, I feel the rise (and kinda fall) of the Big 3 is what sticks in my mind the most.

 

[Franz]

I mean, DBS is just marketing? Man, DBS ressurrected Dragon Ball after 2 decades with it losing popularity in it's products. The bump in sales for the franchise to Toei, Bandai Namco, Shueisha and so on are huge pre and post the series. Don't forget that GT and Kai also existed and they struggled with it in the market.

I do not believe,
In terms of marketing Dragon Ball had never gone in my opinion.

 

[Tarot]

Imagine unironically implying the narratives in Naruto and One Piece are simpler than MHA and Black Clover.

 

[Mankichi Togawa]

About Yu-gi-oh being big because a ''franchise'' and not because Takahashi original manga, I just have to say this:

Dark Side of Dimensions. 2017 movie. It was very very very succesful.

 

[Serinox]

Man, DBS ressurrected Dragon Ball after 2 decades with it losing popularity in it's products.

Well, not really, the thing that revived Dragon Ball was the DBZ: Battle of Gods movie, while Super came about off the revived interest from that movie.

Though, of course, you have to credit DBS for holding said revived interest for a very long time and carrying it over into another, even more successful movie. But DBS didn't stand at the beginning of Dragon Ball's second wind.

 

[Rain Spectre]

To give an example of what I mean with the changes in meta, can you imagine a Jump series doing something like Skypeia today? It would become the most reviled arc in Jump history.

 

[animeexpert]

Why are we even talking about Dragon Ball? The idea was about the Big 3, and frankly the idea that Jump has evolved past what Dragon Ball did is basically simple knowledge at this point.



Congrats on missing my points. My point is that the early narrative were far too simple and slow for the modern environment, and would've killed interest before it even begun. With the Chuunin Exams VS the Sports Festival for example, you ignore that the exams spanned the course of about 90 chapters, more than four times the size of the latter. Likewise, Mihawk and all the implications brought on by that were only a full year into OP's run, compare that to where Jujutsu is at the same approximate point.



Wait, so Prince of Tennis is only liked ironically in Japan? That...says a lot.

It inspired the over the top cool guys with supoer powers on an sport field, that would be too retarded for the west. Now look, we have kuroko no basked and inazuma eleven that is respected from the west.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 19, 2019 ---

Sorry but BLack Clover is the king of shonen, this has been proven countless times both in comparison to its predecessors but also in comparison to its contemporaries. Its the closest thing to a level up of the previous king, Naruto, that we can ever get.

For your other point, One Piece can't even revolutionize a brown paper bag so saying that it revolutionized manga and those others didn't is just plain baffling, stunning, shocking, and a bona fide lie.

Lastly if you're looking for something that has revolutionized manga, then going for a traditional and conventional action manga than shonen jump is probably not the most optimal place to search. HeroAca follows all superhero comic and hot blooded boys action trends to a tee, Haikyuu!! follows every standard sports series trend, which its difficult or impossible to actually do something more there beyond focusing more on life stuff and less on sports club dynamics and numerous other stories are just the same plots just with different Character Models, Environmental Artists, and Writing Prompt Randomizers used for arcs.

You mean naruto/fairytail level

 

[Xzone]

Seeing the auhors comments , do you see Kawada writing an wrestling nekketsu like Kinikuman?

You were excusing him a lot. You may have not said but you did imply it.

Imagine being so obsessed with an author you hate, that you need to create your own fantasy world where everyone who don't say Tsukuda is a bad writer is excusing him.
So calm down and then, maybe we will resume the topic.

 

[hisoga]

I am sorry but that twitter post by yuma arclight guy regarding whether Naruto, Bleach and OP can survive/run in current age of WSJ is very terrible, misleading, incorherent and uninformative. It feels like the author has form his final opinion and conclusion, write it and during the write up he/she just feel in the blank whatever supposedly evidents and analysis that support his/her claim while ignoring everything else.