Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

[GrySun]

Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

Spoiler: Examples of Approved roles

I. Troublemaker

II. Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2 (locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.

I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:

• A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
• A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.

Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.

 

[Lambu]

The Judas thing with a nice tweaking could actually be interesting Always thought Jesus was a little too powerful for town so giving mafia a way to neutralize it so he's not almighty could be nice...

The Iñigo Montoya thing is hilarious Too crazy to implement but still awesome.

For the rest of the list see Gry's post
Except the Surgeon thing, from me its a complete "No". Lynches should be irreversible, thats the fun of messing up in this game.

 

[Evil3ye]

So what happened then.

 

[Juviii]

I know there is already a role suggestion with that name but here is my version:

Necromancer (Townie)


At night they can target a dead player and use their abilities as their own. If they target another dead player they will change roles again. They can't target the same dead player twice. If they target a janitorized player they won't know which role they got until they use it.

 

[GrySun]

So what happened then.

Happened where?

 

[Evil3ye]

Which games were those roles above tested in and what's the results. The post was from August 18, I pressumed something happened in between now.

 

[GrySun]

Which games were those roles above tested in and what's the results. The post was from August 18, I pressumed something happened in between now.

Ah they got tested a few times, but not enough insight yet to put them into role list afaik.
Closest one to be included is the M Apprentice due to it being tested the most number of times, and seemingly hosts found it most interesting. But so far none of the hosts really said „we should have this in the game“ so haven‘t put it in yet until they do, or until I host and test it.

Super Mason was tested once but died before being recruited, while the other two weren‘t tested yet.

There was also another role tested which wasn‘t even in approved list(M Doctor) but also not much insight after testing due to early death iirc.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

Can you tweak a new role for a game to see how it works if you post the tweak here and also at the beginning of the game?

 

[Vandred]

Can you tweak a new role for a game to see how it works if you post the tweak here and also at the beginning of the game?

If it's about a new role that's not yet approved, those are always open for adjustments. What would this particular tweak be about?

 

[Copy Panda]

July Patch Notes!
+ Cleaned up text and descriptions made more uniform, an initial attempt made at reducing overall description/ flavor text or otherwise unclear language. Actual suggested content change listed below.
+ Reworded roles to be gender-neutral (they, the player, [role], etc.)
+ Sorted Roles primarily by type Theme/gameplay niche, then by Action
+ Added 'Regular Townie' and 'Regular Mafia Member' roles ()
+ Omo

Suggested Role Changes
+ Town Pirate description now matches Mafia Pirate variant (finds out what they stole if they did)
+ Bomb Defusers are made aware of their success (still single-successful use, however)
+ Kamikaze Bombs no longer have the Time Bomb clause
+ Bar Keeper now always invites 3 players (instead of 5...)
+ Martyr can't switch targets anymore, but can now target 3 players.
+ Investigator now reveals all hidden roles, not just Janitors (i.e. by a mechanic)
+ Mafia Detective only finds out the exact role of their Target if they are a townie
+ Buffed Mafia Gambler: places one Hidden Vote on Target. If Target dies, Gambler gains Bulletproof protection. If the Target survives the DP, the Gambler is blocked during the NP
+ Serial Killer, Mentor/Mentee, Santa Claus and Lovers win conditions stipulated more clearly
+ Shapeshifter modified a bit, Illusion now a main role rather than a secondary role. Also given a win condition and is still franchised and not some untermensch there for aesthetic purposes only
+ Traitor does not require all names of the Mafia they need to be killed by


TOWNIES
TOWNIE TOWNIES
Regular Townie (Townie): The Player thinks they are a 'Regular Townie'. They actually are a Regular Townie - a townie can vote, think and deduce their way to success on the thread.

Miller (Townie): The Player thinks they are a 'Regular Townie'. They actually are a Miller - a townie who counts as a non-townie to certain 'Investigation' abilities. When they die the Player is revealed to be a 'Miller'.

Death Miller (Townie): The Player thinks they are a 'Regular Townie'. They actually are a Death Miller - a townie who counts as a non-townie to certain 'Investigation' abilities. When they die the Player is revealed to be a 'Mafia Member'.


RECRUITING TOWNIES
Sleeper (Townie): The Player thinks they are a 'Townie'. They actually are a Sleeper - a townie who joins the Mafia they are killed by during the Night Phase.

Recruiting Mason (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Recruiting Mason ‘Recruits’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the Target is a townie, their role is changed to 'Mason'. If the Target is a non-townie, the Mason Recruiter dies. Masons townies can communicate with each other at night.

Mason (Townie): The Mason is a townie who can communicate with other Masons during the Night Phase in a chat provided by the Host.

Threesome Candidate (TSC) (Townie): During the Day Phase, the TSC ‘Recruits’ by guessing what two players are the Lovers in a PM to the Host. The Host informs the Player how many Lovers they guessed correctly (0, 1 or both). The TSC joins the Lovers if they guess both Lovers correctly. If one of the Lovers die, the TSC may guess the remaining Lover. If the last remaining Lover dies, the TSC dies the following Night Phase.


VOTING TOWNIES
Healthy Townie (Townie): A Healthy Townie will always be able to vote healthily and cannot be made to be unable to vote by the Sickly Townie.

Innocent Child (Townie): The Player is informed beforehand by the Host during what Day Phase they will be 'Revealed' to be an Innocent Child on the thread.

Noble (Townie): The Player is penalized for revealing they currently are a Noble on the thread. During the Day Phase, the Noble anonymously ‘Votes’ for one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Target receives one "anonymous vote".

Politician (Townie): The Player is penalized for revealing they currently are a Politician on the thread. During the Day Phase, the Politician anonymously ‘Votes’ in PM by designating one Target to receive a vote and one player who can vote who has to place the vote. The vote placing player receives a PM informing them they must vote for the Target for without revealing why on the thread (or they are penalized).

Restless Spirit (Townie): During the Day Phase after they have been killed, the Restless Spirit ‘Votes’ by posting one message on the thread, vote locking onto one Target and explaining why.

Sickly Townie (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Sickly Townie ‘Infects’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Target cannot vote the following Day Phase.


INVESTIGATING TOWNIES
Sane Detective (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Sane Detective 'Investigates' one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player receives an "Innocent" result for townies and "Guilty" result for non-townies. Detectives do not know about their sanity and must deduce this through gameplay

Insane Detective (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Insane Detective 'Investigates' one Player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player receives an "Innocent" result for non-townies and "Guilty" result for Townies. Detectives do not know about their sanity and must deduce this through gameplay

Naive Detective (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Naive Detective 'Investigates' one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player always receives an “Innocent” result. Detectives do not know about their sanity and must deduce this through gameplay

Paranoid Detective (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Paranoid Detective 'Investigates' one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player always receives a “Guilty” result. Detectives do not know about their sanity and must deduce this through gameplay

Spy (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Spy 'Investigates' one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player receives a (list of) ‘Name(s)’ (no ‘Actions’ or ‘Roles’) targeted by their Target player, and only if they targeted any.

Paranoid Spy (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Paranoid Spy 'Investigates' one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player always receives a random ‘Name’ (no ‘Actions’ or ‘Roles’), whether their Target can or has used an Action or not.

Investigator (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Investigator 'Investigates' one dead player whose role is hidden (????) by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player receives their Target’s hidden role.

Mortician (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Mortician 'Investigates' one dead player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player receives a list of ‘Actions’ (no ‘Names’ or ‘Roles’) used on their Target player, in chronological order.


DOCTOR TOWNIES
Sane Doctor (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Sane Doctor ‘Protects’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Target cannot be killed by Night Actions. The Doctor does not know their sanity.

Insane Doctor (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Insane Doctor ‘Protects’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. There is a 50% chance the Insane Doctor kills their Target rather than Protecting them. The Doctor does not know their sanity.

Naive Doctor (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Naive Doctor ‘Protects’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. There is a 0% chance the Naive Doctor protects their Target. The Doctor does not know their sanity.


DISRUPTING TOWNIES
Bar Keeper (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Bar Keeper invites and ‘Blocks’ three players by PM’ing their Targets name to the Host. One of the three players is randomly picked, and then randomly ‘Blocked’, ‘Redirected’ onto a random target or ‘Role Revealed’. The Bar Keeper is only informed of what effect occurred.

Escort (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Escort ‘Blocks’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Target cannot use their Night Action.

Hider (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Hider ‘Hides’ by hiding behind one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the Hider is targeted by a ‘Kill’ action while hiding, the action fails. If the Hider Hides behind their Killer or the killer’s team, or the Target of the Hider is targeted and killed, the Hider dies.

Bodyguard (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Bodyguard ‘Redirects’ by protecting one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If their Target is targeted by a ‘Kill’ action, the attack is redirected onto the Bodyguard instead.

Bulletproof Townie (Townie): The Bulletproof Townie is 'Bulletproof' and cannot be Killed by Actions occurring during the Night Phase.

Jesus (Townie): If the Sheppard is Lynched or Killed, the Player is 'Revealed' to be Jesus, God bless, and will be 'Revived' the second Day Phase after dying, amen. The Player becomes a 'Regular Townie' after using this ability.

Freeman (Townie): If the Freeman dies, the next Day Phase is skipped. All role effects occurring on that Day Phase are instead moved to the following Day Phase.


BOMB TOWNIES
Bomb (Townie): If the Bomb is Lynched or Killed, the Player 'Explodes', killing the Player responsible for killing the Bomb or placing the last vote on them.

Time Bomb (Townie): The Host informs the Player what Night Phase they will 'Blow Up'. During that Night Phase, the Time Bomb ‘Blows Up’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player and the Target are both killed.

Kamikaze Bomb (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Kamikaze Bomb ‘Blows Up’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player and the Target are both killed. If the Kamikaze Bomb is Lynched or Killed, the player responsible for killing the Kamikaze Bomb or placing the last vote on them is killed as well.

Bomb Defuser (BD) (Townie): During the Night Phase, the BD ‘Defuses’ one player they think to be a Bomb by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the Target is indeed Defused, the BD is informed of this and becomes a 'Regular Townie'.


SPITEFUL TOWNIES
Witch (Townie): Right after the Player is Lynched or Killed during the Day Phase, the Witch openly 'Spites' a Target on the thread by announcing their Target. The Target is killed the second Night after being Spited.

Vengeful Townie (Townie): Right after the Player is Lynched or Killed during the Day Phase, the Vengeful Townie openly 'Spites' a Target on the thread by announcing their Target. Upon resolution, the Host then eliminates the Target from the game.

Paranoid Gun Owner (PGO) (Townie): If the PGO is Lynched or Killed, the Player 'Spites', the player responsible for killing the PGO or placing the last vote on them instead. The Player becomes a 'Regular Townie' after using this ability.


ERUDITE TOWNIES
Pirate (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Pirate ‘Steals’ the Main Role of one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. Upon success, their Target’s role is (unknowingly) changed to ‘Regular Townie’, and the Pirate is informed of what role they have Stolen. If the Pirate attempts to steal the Main Role of a non-Townie, the Pirate dies.

Sane Apprentice (Townie): During two Night Phases, the Apprentice ‘Acquires’ the Main Role of one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the target is killed or blocked, the Apprentice’s action fails. Upon successfully PM’ing the name of the same target twice, the Apprentice is informed of what role they Acquired. If the target is non-town, the Apprentice dies. If the target is a mason, the Apprentice joins their mason group as a Mason.

Insane Apprentice (Townie): During two Night Phases, the Insane Apprentice ‘Acquires’ the Main Role of one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the target is killed or blocked, the Insane Apprentice’s action fails. Upon successfully PM’ing the name of the same target twice, the Insane Apprentice is informed of what role they Acquired. If the Target is mafia, the Insane Apprentice joins their mafia group as a Mafia Apprentice. If the Target is a Mentee, the Insane Apprentice joins their mentor group as a Mentee.


DAYTIME KILLING TOWNIES
Daytime Vigilante (DTV) (Townie): During the Day Phase, the DTV openly ‘Day Kills’ on the thread by announcing their Target. Upon resolution, the Host then eliminates the Target from the game. The Player becomes a 'Regular Townie' after using this ability.

Badass Cowboy (BC) (Townie): During the Day Phase, the BC openly ‘Day Kills’ on the thread by announcing their Target. There is a 50% chance the Player dies instead. Upon resolution, the Host then eliminates the loser of the duel from the game.

Prosecutor (Townie): During the Day Phase, the Prosecutor openly ‘Day Kills’ a Target they think to be Mafia on the thread. During the end of the Day Phase, the Host reveals if the Target is Mafia. If the Target is not Mafia, the Player dies instead. Upon resolution, the Host then eliminates the loser of the duel from the game.

Martyr (Townie): The player is penalized for revealing they currently are a Martyr on the thread. During the Day Phase, the Martyr ‘Protects’ for three player by PM’ing their Target’s names to the Host. If one of the three Target were to be targeted by an Action or be Lynched by town during the Day Phase, the Martyr is targeted instead.


MAFIA
CAPOS
Mafia Boss (Mafia): The Mafia Boss is considered a 'Townie' by 'Investigating' actions.

Mafia Assassin (Mafia): During the Day Phase, the Mafia Assassin ‘Day Kills’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. Upon resolution, the Host then eliminates the Target from the game. The Mafia cannot use another Killing ability on the same night they use the Players Day Kill ability

Mafia Mason (Mafia): A Mafia Mason is a Mafia who can communicate with other Masons at during the Night Phase in a chat provided by the Host. The player is pro-Mafia but appears to be a Mason to other Masons.

Mafia Janitor (Mafia): During the Night Phase, if the Mafia Janitor 'Kills', they may 'Clean Up' up their Target as well. Cleaned Up Targets roles remain hidden (????) till the Janitor dies. The Janitor is informed of the role of their Target, however.

Mafia Poisoner (Mafia): During the Night Phase, if the Mafia Poisoner 'Kills', they may 'Spite' their Target instead. The Target is killed the second Night after being Spited. The Mafia cannot use another Killing ability on the same night they use the Players Spite ability.

Mafia Strongman (Mafia): During the Night Phase, if the Mafia Strongman 'Kills', they may 'Strongarm' their Target as well. The Mafia Strongman cannot be 'Blocked' or 'Redirected' carrying out this kill, and the Target cannot 'Hide' or be 'Protected'. The Player becomes a 'Regular Mafia Member' after using this ability.


MADE MEN
Mafia Bomb (Mafia): If the Mafia Bomb is Lynched or Killed, the Player 'Explodes', killing the player responsible for killing the Bomb or placing the last vote on them.

Mafia Bomb Defuser (MBD) (Mafia): During the Night Phase, the MBD ‘Defuses’ one player they think to be a Bomb by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the Target is indeed Defused, the MBD is informed of this and becomes a 'Regular Mafia Member'.

Mafia Detective (Mafia): During the Night Phase, the Mafia Detective 'Investigates' one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The player receives a "[ROLE]" result for Townies and "????" result for non-Townies. The Mafia Detective cannot 'Kill' during the night they Investigate.

Mafia Escort (Mafia): During the Night Phase, the Mafia Escort ‘Blocks’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The target cannot use their Night action. The Mafia Escort cannot 'Kill' during the night they Block.

Mafia Gambler (Mafia): During the Day Phase, the Mafia Gambler anonymously ‘Votes’ in PM by designating one Target to receive a vote and one player who can vote who must place the vote. The vote placing player receives a PM, and must place their vote on the Mafia Gamblers target without revealing why (or they are penalized). If the Target dies during the Day Phase, the Mafia Gambler becomes 'Bulletproof' the following Night Phase. If the Target doesn’t die, the Mafia Gambler is 'Blocked' the following night instead.

Mafia Pirate (Mafia) During the Night Phase, the Mafia Pirate ‘Steals’ the Main Role of one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. Upon success, their Target’s role is (unknowingly) changed to ‘Regular Townie’, and the Mafia Pirate is informed of what role they Stolen. If the Mafia Pirate attempts to steal the Main Role of a non-Townie, the Mafia Pirate dies. If the Mafia Pirate successfully Steals an ability, they can only Kill if the stolen ability allows for that.


ASSOCIATES
Mafia Burden (Mafia): If the Mafia Burden dies, the next Night Phase is skipped. All role effects occurring on that Night Phase are instead moved to the following Night Phase.

Mafia Member (Mafia): The Player and the Mafia thinks they are a 'Regular Mafia Member'. They actually are. Their goal is to survive for the good of their family. They can vote on the thread at day and decide on who to Kill in private at night.

Unskilled Mafia Member (Mafia): The Player and the Mafia thinks they are a 'Regular Mafia Member'. They are actually an Unskilled Mafia Member. There is a 50% chance that a Kill carried out by the Player fails.

THIRD PARTY
Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer operates as an independent party. During the Night Phase, the Serial Killer ‘Kills’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Serial Killer wins by being eliminating all other players. Eventual 'Draws' are resolved in the Serial Killer's favour.

Mentor (Third Party): The Mentor operates as an independent party. If they do not have a Mentee, during the Night Phase, the Mentor ‘Recruits’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the Target is a townie, their role is changed to 'Mentee'. If the Target is a non-townie, the Mentor dies. The Mentor and their Mentee can communicate with each other at night. If the Mentor and Mentee are both alive, they may 'Kill' one player by sending a PM to the Host. The Mentor and Mentee win by being eliminating all other players. Eventual 'Draws' are resolved in the Mentor and Mentee's favour.

Mentee (Third Party): A Mentee is a player who has been recruited by a Mentor. They can talk to the Mentor privately at Night, but dies the same Night the Mentor dies. The Mentor and their Mentee can communicate with each other at night. If the Mentor and Mentee are both alive, they may 'Kill' one player by sending a PM to the Host. The Mentor and Mentee win by being eliminating all other players. Eventual 'Draws' are resolved in the Mentor and Mentee's favour.

Santa Claus (Third Party): The Santa Claus operates as an independent party. The Host presents Santa Claus with 5 Presents. During the Night Phase, the Serial Killer ‘Gifts’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Santa Claus wins by successfully Gifting the last of their Presents. The Player knows the content of all gifts and can freely gift them in any order they see fit.

Shapeshifter (Third Party): During the Night Phase, the Shapeshifter ‘Hides’ by hiding behind one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. If the Shapeshifter is targeted by a ‘Kill’ action while hiding, the action fails. If the Shapeshifter ‘Hides’ behind their Killer or the killer’s team, or the Target of the Shapeshifter is targeted and killed, the Shapeshifter dies. If the Shapeshifters Hiding was successful and the Target remains alive, the Target becomes an 'Illusion'. The Shapeshifter and Illusions win when they equal or outnumber the remaining players alive.

Illusion (Third Party): If the Player is successfully targeted by the Shapeshifter, their Role (unknowingly) is change to Illusion. If they are targeted by any Night Action, or the Shapeshifter dies, the Illusion dies. The Shapeshifter and Illusions win when they equal or outnumber the remaining players alive.

SECONDARY ROLES
Lovers (Third Party): Two Players from different factions are given the Lovers secondary role. The Lovers operates as a Third party. During the Night Phase, they can communicate with one another. The Lovers win by being the last remaining Survivors. If one Lover dies, the remaining Lover commits suicide on the following night.

Unlimited Voter Disease (UVD) (Neutral):
During the Day Phase, a Player with UVD cannot lock their vote, but can change their vote an unlimited amount of times. During the Night Phase, a player with UVD ‘Infects’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player passes on the Secondary Role by Infecting a player. If the Target is a Healthy Townie, the UVD will be cured instead.

Not Voter Disease (NVD) (Neutral): During the Day Phase, a Player with NVD cannot vote. During the Night Phase, a player with NVD ‘Infects’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player passes on the Secondary Role by Infecting a player. If the Target is a Healthy Townie, the NVD will be cured instead.

Traitor (Mafia): The Player is assigned a townie role, but they can only win with the Mafia. The Traitor joins the Mafia as a Regular Mafia Member if they are killed by them during the Night Phase. The Traitor is given a Name(s) of Member(s) of the Mafia team they must be 'Killed' and 'Recruited' by. The Player counts as a non-townie towards Night Actions.

Naive Traitor (Townie): The Player thinks they are a 'Traitor'. They actually are a Naive Traitor - a townie who has been given incorrect Names. Their win condition and townie status remains unchanged.

 

[GrySun]

Shouldn‘t you post these first in the other section and have all councilors review it? But looks interesting, will read it later when I get the time.

 

[Copy Panda]

Yeah I posted in the wrong thread, I'll move it

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2019, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2019 ---

Actually, given the lack of major content change, I think it's okay if the list stays up here. I'll post the isolated changes in the proper thread, however

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2019 ---

wrong thread again cute mistake

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2019 ---

Whatever happened to Old Cat Lady by the way? And Shuffler?

 

[GrySun]

Whatever happened to Old Cat Lady by the way? And Shuffler?

You should know, you also reviewed those iirc. Here as a reminder

->

Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.

Basically old cat lady is bad the way it is atm and needs some bigger changes. The latest edition of Shuffler got stuck on neutral since some liked it(like me) and some didn‘t.

 

[Copy Panda]

Yeah, I remembered the super long role list a while posting the updated list

 

[GrySun]

Might as well talk about your suggestions here in the open since you posted them here.
Here‘s my thoughts:

+ Town Pirate description now matches Mafia Pirate variant (finds out what they stole if they did)

Would he a major buff to it, but I agree that Pirate as he is right now is not very useful. We even thought about removing the townie Pirate. But before that I would be fine with testing this changed version.

• So if anything remove the Pirate from role list, and add this one into the approved roles for testing, if others agree.

+ Bomb Defusers are made aware of their success (still single-successful use, however)

Am fine with this, I dislike bomb defusers, this would at least tell you if one person is or isn‘t a Bomb. Can be changed.

+ Kamikaze Bombs no longer have the Time Bomb clause

Kamikaze Bomb (Townie): During the Night Phase, the Kamikaze Bomb ‘Blows Up’ one player by PM’ing their Target’s name to the Host. The Player and the Target are both killed. If the Kamikaze Bomb is Lynched or Killed, the player responsible for killing the Kamikaze Bomb or placing the last vote on them is killed as well.

I dislike this. So Kamikaze bombs should both live as long as they want and never „have“ to blow up like Time Bomb, while at the same time keeping all the passive Bomb powers?

+ Bar Keeper now always invites 3 players (instead of 5...)

Don‘t like this either. Leave it to the Barkeeper to decide how many people he wants. Why force down 3 specifically? I don‘t really see benefits in doing that.

+ Martyr can't switch targets anymore, but can now target 3 players.

Think that change was suggested before while we were all talking about roles. Would make it a better Assassin counter I guess. Need to specify whether they have to be targeted all 3 at once or he can send up to 3 PMs.

+ Investigator now reveals all hidden roles, not just Janitors (i.e. by a mechanic)

Was this not always the case though? He reveals hidden roles. Don‘t think it needs changing the description, if you do some strange mechanic that hides roles then it would be obvious the Investigator can uncover them.

+ Mafia Detective only finds out the exact role of their Target if they are a townie

What does he show if it‘s not a townie then? Non-townie? I don‘t like this change, mafia should be able to find the third party or other mafia with their Det, it‘s what many hosts include a Det for them for in the first place.

+ Buffed Mafia Gambler: places one Hidden Vote on Target. If Target dies, Gambler gains Bulletproof protection. If the Target survives the DP, the Gambler is blocked during the NP

What‘s a hidden vote? You mean the anonymous thing the Noble does? That makes him a mafia Noble not a mafia Politician, which is a huge change of the role, basically a whole new role. Not a buff nut a complete rework.

And to judge the rework, I don‘t like it. Very situational BP protection for the Gambler, feels like some filler skill. And Gambler being blocked at night is pointless while he has other teammates. This only matters in a case when he‘s the last man standing, ie. too rare to make a role change around that. And a votechange > anonymous vote, even with the 50% chance imo, so it‘s weaker.

+ Serial Killer, Mentor/Mentee, Santa Claus and Lovers win conditions stipulated more clearly

Found their win conditions obvious, but sure. Might as well. Though sure it‘s better written in every TP role rather than have one sentence describing TP win conditions in general into the general rules text?

+ Shapeshifter modified a bit, Illusion now a main role rather than a secondary role. Also given a win condition and is still franchised and not some untermensch there for aesthetic purposes only

While it still makes the Illusion work the same way as with it being a secondary role, the problem is that it hides the original role the townie player had. Which was the point of it being a secondary role, it still shows who the illusion was, mafia or townie etc.

+ Traitor does not require all names of the Mafia they need to be killed by

I dislike this, not because of the past game but mechanically. What does the Traitor do if his 1 name he got died? He has no way of working towards getting recruited. A bad change that affects his playstyle badly.

As for the changes in wording I don‘t know, I find the current wordings fine. If most other council people find the change better we can change to that, but think it‘s rather minor.
Apart from maybe the different categories of roles.

 

[Copy Panda]

@GrySun

I dislike this. So Kamikaze bombs should both live as long as they want and never „have“ to blow up like Time Bomb, while at the same time keeping all the passive Bomb powers?

Yeah, thematically it makes sense, but I'm also okay with the passive being removed (so simply blow up the desired target along with themselves)

Don‘t like this either. Leave it to the Barkeeper to decide how many people he wants. Why force down 3 specifically? I don‘t really see benefits in doing that.

Because the options to use four or five are duds, more or less? Statistically, picking five people gives you a ~6% chance to get the desired result on the desired person right? Even with 3 invitees, the chances of getting a desirable effects are low, but if the BK reserves the possibility of inviting 5 people, it means the primary use of the role is sort of this bluff net they can cast (think Kato in the ToG game iirc). Maybe BK needs a bit of a buff in return (invite 3 people, pick 2 out of 3 effects to randomly occur)

Think that change was suggested before while we were all talking about roles. Would make it a better Assassin counter I guess. Need to specify whether they have to be targeted all 3 at once or he can send up to 3 PMs.

Personally, I feel all three at the same time would be best, but this is sth we could discuss

Was this not always the case though? He reveals hidden roles. Don‘t think it needs changing the description, if you do some strange mechanic that hides roles then it would be obvious the Investigator can uncover them.

If the description change somehow doesn't cover a situation the original text describes, then I'd see the concern. But if the updated text simply also facilitates outside Hidden roles, I think this should be okay?

What does he show if it‘s not a townie then? Non-townie? I don‘t like this change, mafia should be able to find the third party or other mafia with their Det, it‘s what many hosts include a Det for them for in the first place.

It would show [????]. I think I don't like how a single role can gain so much 'absolute' information. It's simply a powerful role and if they happen to target say Santa at once, they're gone. With the ???? result, the mafia has a bit more uncertainty going in. And they'll know the target is non-townie anyway

What‘s a hidden vote? You mean the anonymous thing the Noble does? That makes him a mafia Noble not a mafia Politician, which is a huge change of the role, basically a whole new role. Not a buff nut a complete rework.

It is, but the anonymous vote was for convenience sake. If you prefer the politician variant, I don't really have a problem with that.

And to judge the rework, I don‘t like it. Very situational BP protection for the Gambler, feels like some filler skill. And Gambler being blocked at night is pointless while he has other teammates. This only matters in a case when he‘s the last man standing, ie. too rare to make a role change around that. And a votechange > anonymous vote, even with the 50% chance imo, so it‘s weaker.

1. anon vote can be changed to vote change
2. you're right BP is a bit of a filler skill, but it's a way to make the gamble pay off
3. if the Gambler is successful, they're BP and can potentially carry out a kill. If they're blocked, they can't Kill during the NP.

The reason Im suggesting these changes is because Gambler is weak and near useless rn because whoever designed the role was like 'gamble bad gamble wrong('.

Found their win conditions obvious, but sure. Might as well. Though sure it‘s better written in every TP role rather than have one sentence describing TP win conditions in general into the general rules text?

If you read the original role descriptions you'll find most include role descriptions while still confusing the Player. Take any player being dealt Lover, for instance, and how confused they are by their win condition

While it still makes the Illusion work the same way as with it being a secondary role, the problem is that it hides the original role the townie player had. Which was the point of it being a secondary role, it still shows who the illusion was, mafia or townie etc.

Again, another weird design choice. The original Illusion is a disfranchised untermensch who's only there to make Shapeshifter feel like they're playing a different game than MG lol. Also I changed the role for the sake of the Illusion tbh. It must be seriously garbage gameplay to not be able to vote or do anything than just be there really. If you're investigated you don't even survive, you just die. If the role thing is important, just add that the host reveals what faction they belonged to earlier (which I think is unnecessary)

I dislike this, not because of the past game but mechanically. What does the Traitor do if his 1 name he got died? He has no way of working towards getting recruited. A bad change that affects his playstyle badly.

Hm yeah that's fair, alright

As for the changes in wording I don‘t know, I find the current wordings fine. If most other council people find the change better we can change to that, but think it‘s rather minor.
Apart from maybe the different categories of roles.

The current wording is a mess and only intuitive to old players. A new player coming in won't understand the spirit of most roles just by reading it. Also some of the description or explanation structures are really poor.

 

[GrySun]

Yeah, thematically it makes sense, but I'm also okay with the passive being removed (so simply blow up the desired target along with themselves)

Why do you think it needs that change? Like this all that‘s different if you remove the passive bomb effects is that his life isn‘t limited unless he chooses it to be. Think the original intention was to make the time/kamikaze bombs be forced to eventually use their roles. If you want to make them live forever can‘t you just make deadline night 10 or so?

But overall am neutral on this.

Because the options to use four or five are duds, more or less? Statistically, picking five people gives you a ~6% chance to get the desired result on the desired person right? Even with 3 invitees, the chances of getting a desirable effects are low, but if the BK reserves the possibility of inviting 5 people, it means the primary use of the role is sort of this bluff net they can cast (think Kato in the ToG game iirc). Maybe BK needs a bit of a buff in return (invite 3 people, pick 2 out of 3 effects to randomly occur)

Everyone would pick the reveal if they could choose, I don‘t see a way to buff BK without it being too strong unless you rework how it works.

If people want to pick 4 or 5 why not let them? I mean we could change it to 3, I just don‘t see the purpose of that at all. Why are you suggesting this change?

Personally, I feel all three at the same time would be best, but this is sth we could discuss

Then it might as well be a night action? Just that it destroys the combo with daykillers while also not being as flexible. But yes lots could be done with Martyr still, especially with how people lately fake the role.

If the description change somehow doesn't cover a situation the original text describes, then I'd see the concern. But if the updated text simply also facilitates outside Hidden roles, I think this should be okay?

But the situation it doesn‘t cover is an imaginary one tied to special mechanics, something outside the MG rules. I don‘t think rules need to be changed because of those. But the way you worded it is okay I guess.

It would show [????]. I think I don't like how a single role can gain so much 'absolute' information. It's simply a powerful role and if they happen to target say Santa at once, they're gone. With the ???? result, the mafia has a bit more uncertainty going in. And they'll know the target is non-townie anyway

That‘s what the host putting Santa and M Det in his game should be aware of, and not be a shocked pikachu if the M Det he put in uncovers the Santa. I disagree with this one, but you can tag and ask others too.

1. anon vote can be changed to vote change
2. you're right BP is a bit of a filler skill, but it's a way to make the gamble pay off
3. if the Gambler is successful, they're BP and can potentially carry out a kill. If they're blocked, they can't Kill during the NP.

The reason Im suggesting these changes is because Gambler is weak and near useless rn because whoever designed the role was like 'gamble bad gamble wrong('.

I disagree with you on that, I find the Gambler very good, can be super useful and it would be a mafia role I‘d like having in my team. The 50% chance is unreliable, but if it works it can be huge to change the 4 votes on your mafia and 2 on a random townie to 3 votes on your mafia and 3 on a random townie. It turns a -2 difference into a 0, or even advantage with a locked vote.

You can write the detailed role description and run it by some others, but I like the Gambler how he is right now. If the chance was 100% he‘d be OP even, tier 1 mafia role.

If you read the original role descriptions you'll find most include role descriptions while still confusing the Player. Take any player being dealt Lover, for instance, and how confused they are by their win condition

Hm alright.

Again, another weird design choice. The original Illusion is a disfranchised untermensch who's only there to make Shapeshifter feel like they're playing a different game than MG lol. Also I changed the role for the sake of the Illusion tbh. It must be seriously garbage gameplay to not be able to vote or do anything than just be there really. If you're investigated you don't even survive, you just die. If the role thing is important, just add that the host reveals what faction they belonged to earlier (which I think is unnecessary)

„Serious garbage“ compared to being outright dead like SK kills? James made the role so that people the SS kills still can continue to play despite being technically dead. I like that aspect of it. And since they don‘t contribute to the SS gameplay-wise like Mentee for Mentor, they shouldn‘t win together with him either.

The current wording is a mess and only intuitive to old players. A new player coming in won't understand the spirit of most roles just by reading it. Also some of the description or explanation structures are really poor.

Then could you have pointed out with quotes some examples of said bad descriptions? Since I‘m an old player I don‘t see the new player confusion.

 

[Copy Panda]

Why do you think it needs that change? Like this all that‘s different if you remove the passive bomb effects is that his life isn‘t limited unless he chooses it to be. Think the original intention was to make the time/kamikaze bombs be forced to eventually use their roles. If you want to make them live forever can‘t you just make deadline night 10 or so?

But overall am neutral on this.

To create role distinction. Fyi, Time Bomb never had the bomb passive. If the host wants the player to be able to explode by themselves, they make them a Kamikaze, if they want to be able to explode anytime, a simple bomb is fine. If they have more niche wishes, there are roles for that too. But what I'd like is more distinction between roles, so that we see some variety.

Everyone would pick the reveal if they could choose, I don‘t see a way to buff BK without it being too strong unless you rework how it works.

If people want to pick 4 or 5 why not let them? I mean we could change it to 3, I just don‘t see the purpose of that at all. Why are you suggesting this change?

Counterplay? To create a scope for other players to consider when a BK claim is made.

Then it might as well be a night action? Just that it destroys the combo with daykillers while also not being as flexible. But yes lots could be done with Martyr still, especially with how people lately fake the role.

Have no strong opinions on whether or not it should be a day action or a night action. If you think the role requires flexibility, I can concede to that.

That‘s what the host putting Santa and M Det in his game should be aware of, and not be a shocked pikachu if the M Det he put in uncovers the Santa. I disagree with this one, but you can tag and ask others too.

Well yes, but this way the host doesn't have to pika and can still put in M det so that mafia can gain information and a Santa so that Santa can do their thing. I think it creates more excitement, especially if there are multiple mafia teams/tp, the mafia who rng'd onto a tp doesn't necessarily immediately gain all of the goods. They still have to make the decision to kill that party (who they know is not town, at least) or some other party they have more information on.

I disagree with you on that, I find the Gambler very good, can be super useful and it would be a mafia role I‘d like having in my team. The 50% chance is unreliable, but if it works it can be huge to change the 4 votes on your mafia and 2 on a random townie to 3 votes on your mafia and 3 on a random townie. It turns a -2 difference into a 0, or even advantage with a locked vote.

It's bad not because of the effect, but because of the % related approach. If you say vote change instead of anon vote, sure, go ahead, I agree. But I thought the betting on someone's death aspect was more interesting than hoping the host flips well.

„Serious garbage“ compared to being outright dead like SK kills? James made the role so that people the SS kills still can continue to play despite being technically dead. I like that aspect of it. And since they don‘t contribute to the SS gameplay-wise like Mentee for Mentor, they shouldn‘t win together with him either.

Yeah, this seriously annoys me. They are there just for aesthetic purposes. I would straight up rather not play than find out everything I've been doing, scheming and trying to figure out has been meaningless, because even if I somehow survive it won't matter. So yeah, I'd rather be dead and do something with my time than live being mirror to complement the Shapeshifts smoke. And if that's not possible, then I'd at least reluctantly win on the side of the guy who made me useless. I straight up don't like this role, but if it has to exist, I insist the Illusions be handled in a way that it doesnt waste the players time.

 

[GrySun]

To create role distinction. Fyi, Time Bomb never had the bomb passive. If the host wants the player to be able to explode by themselves, they make them a Kamikaze, if they want to be able to explode anytime, a simple bomb is fine. If they have more niche wishes, there are roles for that too. But what I'd like is more distinction between roles, so that we see some variety.

Isn‘t it just you who made role lists in 2-pairs or 3-pairs before but want variety? But the Kamikaze change I‘m not against.

Counterplay? To create a scope for other players to consider when a BK claim is made.

And in what way do we not have that if it‘s 3-5 targets? Either way BKs are suspected and asked why they targeted who they did.

It's bad not because of the effect, but because of the % related approach. If you say vote change instead of anon vote, sure, go ahead, I agree. But I thought the betting on someone's death aspect was more interesting than hoping the host flips well.

Hence why it‘s a gamble. Chance to be great, chance to be bad. Like Cowboy, but failure is tolerable to some extent.
The betting on someone‘s death concept could be used for a new role, but my current take on Gambler is that he‘s fine.

Yeah, this seriously annoys me. They are there just for aesthetic purposes. I would straight up rather not play than find out everything I've been doing, scheming and trying to figure out has been meaningless, because even if I somehow survive it won't matter. So yeah, I'd rather be dead and do something with my time than live being mirror to complement the Shapeshifts smoke. And if that's not possible, then I'd at least reluctantly win on the side of the guy who made me useless. I straight up don't like this role, but if it has to exist, I insist the Illusions be handled in a way that it doesnt waste the players time.

They‘re in a way restless spirits that keep going until some point. And they can still talk, which is very valuable on it‘s own. So I don‘t get your complaints here.

Think that‘s the conclusion of me for that.

Agree:

+ Town Pirate description now matches Mafia Pirate variant (finds out what they stole if they did) major change, needs testing
+ Bomb Defusers are made aware of their success (still single-successful use, however)
+ Kamikaze Bombs no longer have the Time Bomb clause
+ Investigator now reveals all hidden roles, not just Janitors (i.e. by a mechanic)
+ Serial Killer, Mentor/Mentee, Santa Claus and Lovers win conditions stipulated more clearly

Undecided:

+ Martyr can't switch targets anymore, but can now target 3 players.

Disagree:

+ Bar Keeper now always invites 3 players (instead of 5...)
+ Mafia Detective only finds out the exact role of their Target if they are a townie
+ Buffed Mafia Gambler: places one Hidden Vote on Target. If Target dies, Gambler gains Bulletproof protection. If the Target survives the DP, the Gambler is blocked during the NP
+ Shapeshifter modified a bit, Illusion now a main role rather than a secondary role. Also given a win condition and is still franchised and not some untermensch there for aesthetic purposes only
+ Traitor does not require all names of the Mafia they need to be killed by

I suggest you to ask @Vandred @Farfalla @Lambu @Evil3ye @Hardy look over these if you still hope to get the changes in before your game starts.

 

[Copy Panda]

Isn‘t it just you who made role lists in 2-pairs or 3-pairs before but want variety? But the Kamikaze change I‘m not against.

That has to do with the role list, not with the roles themselves

And in what way do we not have that if it‘s 3-5 targets? Either way BKs are suspected and asked why they targeted who they did.

Well, most roles target a single person. You can make educated guesses on their target, or at least calculate and consider. A BK can target 3 to 5 people, Who knows who or what he'll hit. That's why I suggest we make it so that you can always assume the BK targets 3 people.

Hence why it‘s a gamble. Chance to be great, chance to be bad. Like Cowboy, but failure is tolerable to some extent.
The betting on someone‘s death concept could be used for a new role, but my current take on Gambler is that he‘s fine.

Alright but the difference is that the Cowboy has a 50% chance to kill someone in a duel (which is cool) with a reasonable downside. The gamble aspect of Mafia Gambler seems to be disproportional to the actual effect, is what I'm saying. But we can agree to disagree here.

They‘re in a way restless spirits that keep going until some point. And they can still talk, which is very valuable on it‘s own. So I don‘t get your complaints here.

The Restless Spirit knows they're a Restless Spirit. The Illusion has no stake in the game anymore. I.e. they wouldn't continue playing if they knew they were the Illusion. Nevermind avoiding death, they can't even be targeted. Okay sure, but they can't vote either. If they're not listened to, there is no other way they can impact the game. The Restless Spirit can rest easy after their message but the illusion isn't cast on town/the opponent but on the target. Which I don't like, it doesn't seem like good gameplay to me. But that too will remain up in the air.

I suggest you to ask @Vandred @Farfalla @Lambu @Evil3ye @Hardy look over these if you still hope to get the changes in before your game starts.

Yeah I hope any of them gets the chance to look it over

(@Vandred too)

 

[Farfalla]

Tonight I'll try to post my opinions about it. Would LOVE if we'd finally have some rules and roles officially adjusted and updated, tho, so I appreciate you guys efforts, that's for sure.