Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

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NeeNeen

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The major reasons for S8 being a failure lies mostly with the readers.
1. The trash talking and hate it got for the first chapters but currently it's good but I'm sure those people ain't even reading it.
2.japanesse have a niche to sci fi that's just not their type.
3. Lack of patience which is another important reason I'm sure most readers left it after the first few chapters . There's a saying in our language that"Savr ka fal mitha hota hai" Meaning the results of patience is Sweet.
4.A part of its failure lies with kishimoto too as he did what he wanted, not knowing what the readers wanted to, even though he could bring them as his readers in future but that would be a lot of hard work .

So with all these I hate to say this but Our Beloved Japanese Have Failed to Evolve
Well, yeah... the major reason for ANY series being a success or a failure lies with the readers. That's how the magazine works.

Make no mistake though, it's the readers who pay the artist, not the other way around. So it's the artist's job to try and please the readers, not the other way around.

And that last line is just plain racist.


Is this not art?
Does one create art from/for all to enjoy but most importantly to fulfill oneself?

True artist does not worry about such things...otherwise I believe he wouldn't try again"to create"
:cookiehand
Jump does. If you want to write your own thing without worrying about popularity, WSJ is about the worst place to do it.

It's not like Kishimoto doesn't have the money to publish independently, if that's what he really wanted.
 

Mankichi Togawa

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*Wake up*
*New 7 pages of ''Samurai 8 is the worst manga ever'' discussion*

Jesus.

I wonder if MH would have existed in 2000, if it would have pages and pages about Watsuki Gun Blaze West. Or if it has existed in 80s, about Kurumada Otoko Zaka.
 

NeeNeen

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What happened in the manga, if you mind explaining?
In the last chapter, page 13-15 if I counted correctly, there's a two-page monologue about what does and doesn't count as discrimination against homosexuals.

Chapter link:

I think they're right, but it kind of made me wonder what the general opinion is in Japan.


I wonder if MH would have existed in 2000, if it would have pages and pages about Watsuki Gun Blaze West. Or if it has existed in 80s, about Kurumada Otoko Zaka.
Probably.
 

Xzone

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*Wake up*
*New 7 pages of ''Samurai 8 is the worst manga ever'' discussion*

Jesus.

I wonder if MH would have existed in 2000, if it would have pages and pages about Watsuki Gun Blaze West. Or if it has existed in 80s, about Kurumada Otoko Zaka.
The art topic was more interesting than any digital sales discussion ever.
 

TJQ15

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In the last chapter, page 13-15 if I counted correctly, there's a two-page monologue about what does and doesn't count as discrimination against homosexuals.

Chapter link:

I think they're right, but it kind of made me wonder what the general opinion is in Japan.
Just looked at it and that came out of nowhere. It’s like when Araki starts randomly monologuing in his chapter like the most recent one in JoJolion with
Wireless chargers

Just kinda comes off as Ohba weirdly trying to justify to himself his feelings on homosexuality.
 

NeeNeen

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Just kinda comes off as Ohba weirdly trying to justify to himself his feelings on homosexuality.
Or to someone else.

Did he get attacked online over something? I can't remember there being anything too questionable in his series, but this definitely feels like a response to some kind of criticism.
 

TJQ15

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Or to someone else.

Did he get attacked online over something? I can't remember there being anything too questionable in his series, but this definitely feels like a response to some kind of criticism.
Sure. But it’s weird cuz he’s complaining about “discrimination” and what not when what he’s feeling is at worst bigotry (a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices) which I can’t tell of any intolerance or what not from this.

Maybe this came from a conversation with a friend, an editor, Obata, etc. Idk

Plus it’s a translation so I don’t know how much liberty was taken to make it sound better or worse then it was in the Japanese.
Also I assume if we keep talking about this it’ll get shot down by a moderator since it’s about an SQ series and noting to do about WSJ news.
 

Rain Spectre

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So, looking the situation over, I have a fair number of potential reasons for Samurai 8's under-performance. Feel free to agree or disagree on any of them:

1. Overpromotion

This was perhaps the biggest immediate thing for many people, and it does bear repeating, Samurai 8 was pushed way too hard for its own good. While obviously the news of Kishimoto's return is a big deal and deserves to be publicized, they really should've just stopped at the promo video at Jump Festa. All the advertising via billboards, pamphlets and interviews was overkill, and created this dangerous idea that Samurai 8 was going to be much more epic than it actually was. Remember, this is an industry where almost nothing is advertised before it begins running, Samurai 8 getting so much was bound to raise eyebrows.

2. Timing of the Release Date

This was just stupid, honestly. Why did Shueisha even think this was a good idea? One Piece, one of the benchmark titles of the Modern Era, a series which utterly exploded in popularity this year, the two biggest new series of the year, a couple of well-established titles, and the concluding volume to a well beloved series. Why on Earth did they think that trying to sell two volumes of Samurai 8 was going to work? They didn't even advertise it well, giving no promotion for it in Jump or online, and instead betting on a crappy pamphlet strategy which was just intrusive advertising.

3. Too Much of a Passion Project, Not Enough Market Appeal

Kishi clearly has a lot of big ambitions with Samurai 8, but so much of them is built out of his personal interests like Star Wars, rather than anything which would directly appeal to a modern Japanese youth audience. The result is that we have a manga set in a vague and rather unrelatable setting with a hazy but "epic" story, with incredibly heavy amounts of terminology and info-dumping. He really should've done some market research, but, since S8 is a project where Kishi was given the ability to do whatever with no editorial interference, no such mandate was given to him.

4. An Inability To Compete

This is the most subjective, but I think the issue a lot have with Samurai 8 is that it's...okay. Compared to the modern battle manga, it's not solid and powerful like MHA, lacks BC's strong cast and setting, isn't deeply emotionally resonate like Kimetsu, and isn't exhilarating and thematically complex like Jujutsu. It's...a bog-standard battle manga, one which might've looked cool a decade ago, but now looks outdated and kinda choppy. This, again, is where some editorial guidence could've helped a lot, but instead, Kishi just kept to his own little world.

5. A Lack of the Real Target Demographic

This is pretty speculative I'd admit, but I think S8's first and biggest misstep is that Kishi intended the series for a younger demographic that really isn't there nowadays, per survey data. Samurai 8 kinda reads to me like a manga he thought his son would enjoy, you can infer as much if you read the interviews he did before the series started, but that kind of style isn't exactly going to be a big hit when the people it appeals to are in the minority of magazine and especially volume readers. To the majority, Samurai 8 just looks...kinda half-baked, to be honest.

So, those are the main reasons, I think. Feel free to debate them, I'm sure someone has a good counterargument to mine.
 

animeexpert

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General question, why do you guys think veteran creators so often struggle to make successful comebacks in Jump?
It's an normal thing to happen, not everyone is meant to last forever. Take an example for rap, most old school rappers are stuck in the past while some can adapt in the future. It all has to do with experience on how familiar they are with the current state of their environment.

Doesnt matter how big you are, you are an successful predecessor that had to focus to do 1 franchise for many many years that inspired a whole freaking demographic. That's something to praise for and never something to be ashamed.

I rather have a writer that found 1 successful manga that he can perform for almost his live-time that give many inspiration for the new generation than someone with barely successful flops. (Yes I'm looking at you author from Noah notes, FOH)
 
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Rain Spectre

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Samael Morningstar

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No matter how much counter argument I use or try to defend S8 that's not going the change it's undeniably bad situation currently so I don't think I should be wasting my time and energy on that .
 

animeexpert

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There's a few different reasons returning veterans might fail.

- could be that they've planned things out long term but don't give much consideration on how to make it fun at the beginning, since they assume their name will get them past the shaky early period either way (like how Kishi filled the first two volumes of Samurai 8 with infodumps without putting much effort into making it a fun start figuring people will give enough support anyway to get to the later parts he actually cares about)

- could be they wanted to return with something but already did their dream series, so are just lumping some unused or previously rejected ideas together (Hungry Marie feels that way to me, it's a collection of random side ideas that aren't really linked together well and have no real core focus)

- hype backlash of course is a thing too, it's hard to live up to expectations of a former face of the magazine

- editors reining them in less is probably part of it too, from what someone posted a few pages ago it sounds like Naruto was a very heavily editor-driven series early on, so I wonder if Samurai 8 is what happens if Kishi's allowed to just do whatever (perhaps we'll find out later)

- could be their ideas for what people will enjoy are now dated or cliche and not suited to current readers

- or they just plain got lucky the first time, making the right series at the right time, JK Rowling for example I think is the #1 most successful author of all time but nothing she's done past Harry Potter has had any impact at all
3. Mha

5. Yui kamio and many others

6. Black clover
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Looked through that interview and wow did this answer not age well...

"Spark of explosion" :yodawg

Also his view on jump sounds a bit outdated, espcially nowadays. The new kids (mangakas) know slowly how they must survive in the magazine, being an old veteran mangaka give you only a headstart.

It's more of a labyrinth to survive than a "competition", since you can make an manga without relying on planet lvl super power shonen
 
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Serinox

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that Kishi intended the series for a younger demographic that really isn't there nowadays, per survey data. Samurai 8 kinda reads to me like a manga he thought his son would enjoy
Kishimoto's son is around 16-17 years old though, so he belongs in the 17.6% of 16-18 year old readers, and would potentially fringe into the next lower age group (16.4% 13-15 years old) and the next higher age group (25.8% 19-24 years old).
 

Konja9

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BTW, just stumbled upon this on twitter:



That push still doesn't seem to be doing much...
When was the date of that twiter?

I think we still need to see the sales of second day to be sure about the situation of Samurai 8.
 

Samael Morningstar

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Well is it true that the animators are underpaid and ain't earning sufficient to make a livlihood
 

Serinox

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Well is it true that the animators are underpaid and ain't earning sufficient to make a livlihood
Of course. That's like the most basic principle of that industry ^^
 

4Eyes

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Well is it true that the animators are underpaid and ain't earning sufficient to make a livlihood
Yeap. Entertainment industry is a monster in the eastern countries. It doesn't matter if you're an animator, an idol or a kpop star. You will be HUGELY explored. Sometimes I pity watching animes and being part of this scheme.
 

Samael Morningstar

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And why so...... Shouldn't they making campaigns and revolts to increase their pay
 

Serinox

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And why so...... Shouldn't they making campaigns and revolts to increase their pay
It's not like most animation studios could afford to pay more. It would probably end in mass lay-offs and outsourcing even more animation to cheap Korean studios.

Anyway, I think you are straying a bit off-topic with that here in the Jump thread.
 
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