Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[NeeNeen]

The problem is not Light being a dick to women, the problem is that that's the one and only purpose of every female character.
Let's make a quick recap from memory about Death Note female characters.

Spoiler: Death Note

Let's start with Misa. She actually had some agency when she was first introduced, playing her own game, doing what she wanted, and even finding Light before he finds her. Sure, her motivation was still being obsessed with a man, but at least she put her own desires before his. Later on , however, she becomes Light's lackey and little else.

Then there's Naomi Takada, who is basically like Misa but even worse somehow.

There's also that FBI agent from the beginning, who was super-competent at her job yet was content with becoming a house-wife and only got involved because her man got killed. And then Light easily plays her fairly easily despite having proven to be very intelligent, with Ryuk commenting that he's just doing what he does with all the other girls, so there's the implication that ANY woman would fall for it.

Light's mom, whose only role is supporting her husband and little else.

Light's sister, who got to play the damsel in distress that one time.

And I think that's all of them? Am I forgetting someone?

Rem, Misa's shinigami. Died to protect Misa.

Personally I thought she was the worst.

 

[supercow297]

When I read that in Bakuman, it annoyed me at first, but I had to admit that he was probably right with many mangas shonen (although there is also many shonen with more complex female characters).

Also, shojo probably does something similar with its male characters.

That's not what I mean. I didn't mean him describing shonen manga. That is fine. I meant Moritaka's mom, Kaya, Mizuki, Ayase, Aoki, ... etc all had scenes in which the lines spoken concerning them were conspicuous of a larger philosophy of the author's.
To the extent that reposting them on 4chan would probably yield "BASED AND REDPILLED"

 

[ChocoBar9]

In terms of writing Saki from Platinum End is Obata's best female character....its too bad the rest if the manga is garbage.

 

[supercow297]

I know this Twitter poll itself is not really an indicator of reception/popularity, but it is interesting to see Mitama so high.

TL goes as
1. Jujutsu Kaisen
2. Act-Age
3. Haikyu
4. One Piece
5. Kimetsu no Yaiba
6. Mitama Security
7. Chainsaw Man
8. Dr. Stone
9. My Hero Academia
12. Yakusoku no Neverland
18. Black Clover

I know this isn't Abe-certified 100% accurate but here's my impressions.

Rip Black Clover, WTF?
Also, see? Neverland is actually bombing (COMPARATIVELY, WITH REGARD TO HOW PEOPLE VIEW IT'S QUALITY, NOT ITS FINANCIAL PROSPECTS OR POPULARITY), it's not just me.
BASED MITAMACHADS RISE UP

 

[TyVip]

In terms of writing Saki from Platinum End is Obata's best female character....its too bad the rest if the manga is garbage.

perfectly balance, as all things should be.

----------

Side note, Kubo did character designs for a game so he is still cooking up something, even though it is not manga related~

 

[supercow297]

Wait, how bad was Bakuman with its handling of female characters? I’ve seen the anime and liked it, but I honestly don’t remember.

IIRC anime cut some of the more pervasive stuff, examples of what remained for example is literally in ep 1, gramps telling Mashiro's mom "Women can't understand the dreams of men" or something. Which by itself is whatever but it's presented as some dramatic insightful, emotional revelation. Anyway like I said I'm not an SJW, but these things add up over the whole series. Much more clear on a reread though, just like how you can miss some of the philosophy/references in HxH (random example) without rereading, esp. if you're just watching the anime which is way more passive of an experience.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 6, 2019 ---

Speaking of Mitama Secureity (and for a change of pace from Endless 8)

how many chapters does everyone think it'll last for?

<20? (quick flop cancellation)
20-50? (not a hit but fails less than other stuff for a while, or is kept around for a bit despite bad performance because it's the only gag manga)
50-100? (almost successful but never captures that staying power, or does well enough to not get canned until they have some newer proper hits)
100+ (proper hit for a gag manga and sticks around long term)

considering there's 4-5 series and an empty space ahead of it in the cancellation priority, other series due to end fairly soon, and due to it being the only gag manga currently), I think it'll be 40 chapters minimum unless it's a legendary failure. I can see it going past a year without much effort unless a new gag manga comes in that's a big hit or there's a big batch of 5-6 new series at once.

Mitama will be 20-50 if the author burns out, but I'm hoping for 100+ if the author can continue improving and making his chapters gradually more funny as he has been doing. It started good and now it's even better.

I want Yozakura to be canceled. Sorry to the author who I know is trying hard, but it's pretty boring.

 

[NeeNeen]

That's not what I mean. I didn't mean him describing shonen manga. That is fine. I meant Moritaka's mom, Kaya, Mizuki, Ayase, Aoki, ... etc all had scenes in which the lines spoken concerning them were conspicuous of a larger philosophy of the author's.
To the extent that reposting them on 4chan would probably yield "BASED AND REDPILLED"

In the Western world of today, that would definitely be the case.

But how well does the Western world of today match the Japan of 10 years ago?

 

[supercow297]

It is a nonsensical gag manga, the only one in the magazine right now, so it can probably last long, at least until something better appears.
Jump lacks a comedy right now, something that Yozakura is showing potential there, I laugh more reading it than Mitama by far.

I accept that you find it funny, I just want to say that there are people who don't see it as that comedically great. The only "humor" so far is the characters saying scary things and the MC going "AAAAHHH I'M A PUSSY NO NO KEEP IT AWAY FROM ME"
When the older brother does it though it's genuinely hilarious.

 

[Konja9]

There were many instances where Mashiro wanted more but Azuki didn't. It definitely promotes consent. They could've just gone the usual "pure" girl route and have the guy forcefully kiss her and that somehow passes as romantic. Azuki only kissed Mashiro when it met her terms, ie fullfilling their dreams.

Yeah stuff like not talking about your feelings and just bottling it up was immature but its something that grown ass people do very often even today. So, it's a bit too much to be expecting characters in their teens and early 20s to do better.

I guess I can see your point.

That said, I remember just one instance where Mashiro as if its possible to change the rule.

The rule wasn't exactly "no kissing". It was not "meet each other" until they fullfil their dreams

 

[supercow297]

Since tokyo shinobi squad is constantly being in the bottom when do you guys expect it to get axed.

What a cool premise, environment, and hints of a world only to be ruined by "rule of cool", "muh ice power fight for 3 chapters" and "stakesless tournament in a basement" instead of seeing the outside and exploring.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2019 ---

I'm assuming you haven't read too many older series. Death Note was fairly normal for its time.

Death Note may be "normal" but beyond how the plot is handled with regards to females, it's clear that the author also has a deeper personal outlook that subconsciously pervades his work.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2019 ---

Did people like Mario?
Personally, I found it super cringy and it gave off such a "wannabe cool/edgy" vibe

I liked mario because it was different and the presentation/paneling was clever and the story itself was interesting. Didn't find it cringe. Just to answer your question.

 

[Jovan]

The next round of cancellation is going to be an interesting one because Beast Children would be considered the first one to get axed, but with Japan going so well at the Rugby World Cup (3 straight wins, Sunday they takes on Scotland for the 4th straight win and undefeated through the first round), I'm not so sure. Tokyo Shinobi Squad would be next one, but it seems it needs some chapters to complete this current arc, I will see later today with the new chapter if the landscape changes. Futari no Taisei can end anytime, it seems the author already gave up with some of the latest chapters. :P
It seems Yui Kamio is safe for now, I'm grateful for that.

I am not so sure about Yui, especially with the recent developments. They can do a 5-round if they want to, especially with losing 2 veterans in Souma and Hinomaru and Neverland near it's end. That is not a small thing.

And this is before we know how Yozakura and Mitama settle. I find it a bit alarming tbh, whole 7 spots are up in the air plus 8th when Neverland ends, basically more than 1/3rd of the magazine.

 

[supercow297]

It was a good writing for the story. Literature was not made to make the readers feel comfortable all the time nor to agree with the values of the readers all the time, it is made to transmit a message. There are manga series and books out there that have characters going through slavery, human trafficking, genocide, etc. Some of the most heinous crimes, you get the idea. Does it mean the author agree with such behaviors? Not necessarily, probably not all.
Nobody agrees with most of what Light does in Death Note and that's the idea of the series.

Just to give you an example of a novel I'm reading right now. The story goes like this, a high school girl abandoned her house and school for reasons unknown until this point of the story, traveled from Hokkaido to Tokyo staying in generally man houses, just making some "compensations" to stay in their houses (I hope you know what I'm trying to say with "compensations" and how despicable this is). Then she is picked by a man that treats her like a human being and not like a piece of meat and then the story begins. It has been one of the best light novel I've ever read.
It is 「ひげを剃る。そして女子高生を拾う」for those curious, I recommend very much.

Eh, that LN (currently out as an ongoing scanlated manga if I didn't read the JP wrong) is just okay. It has an hook-you-in name, and handles women okay. The fact that that in itself is worthy of applause is disheartening. 29 to JK does it a lot better imo, the MC is just so goddamn real that even though the situation yells "HAREM SHIT" the entire series is so damn good and enjoyable.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 6, 2019 ---

About Obata's female, give credit where credit is due. He did wrote FBI wife, which was solid and a highlight of Death Note for me. It has been so long so I forgot a lot, but two moment I remember vividly is FBI wife and tennis match. Tho she was removed from the story quickly, so who know, if she stay longer he would ruined her. And Misa is beyond help.
Agree that most big 3 have better female than Obata works, but not with Naruto tho. Kishi's Sakura is the best example of how not to make a female character.

If I'm to be devil's advocate, the FBI wife only left her happy cozy retired-from-the-force-to-cook-for-hubby life, because her husband died, so in the end her motivation was still centred around the guy. One can argue it mirrors Sakura and Sasuke.
Still she was badass. Fuck Raito.

 

[NeeNeen]

Death Note may be "normal" but beyond how the plot is handled with regards to females, it's clear that the author also has a deeper personal outlook that subconsciously pervades his work.

Obviously. But what I'm wondering is if this 'personal outlook' fit the Japanese standards at the time or not.

Because you can't really blame the guy for sharing the mainstream opinion, even if that opinion is deemed wrong 20 years later.

 

[supercow297]

I think there is a confusion.

Nobody is accusing Ohba that he thinks it is good to play with woman. In fact, it's pretty likely he thinks this is bad as he put Light in a negative light for his behavior.

That doesn't mean he writes good female characters.

In Bakuman, Mashiro says that female characters in shonen are just the ideal female of an author (and that's why he doesn't need to know women to create female characters). This wasn't put in a negative light, it was treated as the normal.


PS: I think he was right that many shonen authors create femald characters that way.

I'll say it one last time before I beat the horse too much, but my point isn't that he wrote shonen female characters, but that if you reread his works you can tell that there is a deeper level of processing that led to the lines he puts on the paper whenever a female is in a scene, and from that you can extrapolate a bit about his philosophy. This is my opinion but I do not think it is illogical when the evidence is stacked up.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 6, 2019 ---

Obviously. But what I'm wondering is if this 'personal outlook' fit the Japanese standards at the time or not.

Because you can't really blame the guy for sharing the mainstream opinion, even if that opinion is deemed wrong 20 years later.

Good question, from working in a Japanese company and hearing a debate held by higher-ups vs an internal women's rights group at a conference, I'd say it is the mainstream opinion of most people above 40 in Japan now, at least.

 

[Leoat12]

I think there is a confusion.

Nobody is accusing Ohba that he thinks it is good to play with woman. In fact, it's pretty likely he thinks this is bad as he put Light in a negative light for his behavior.

That doesn't mean he writes good female characters.

In Bakuman, Mashiro says that female characters in shonen are just the ideal female of an author (and that's why he doesn't need to know women to create female characters). This wasn't put in a negative light, it was treated as the normal.


PS: I think he was right that many shonen authors create femald characters that way.

Well, it can be normal in the industry, who knows. When you are creating a character that was supposed to be likeable you would think to yourself what characteristics it should have in your opinion, it is just human nature.

I am not so sure about Yui, especially with the recent developments. They can do a 5-round if they want to, especially with losing 2 veterans in Souma and Hinomaru and Neverland near it's end. That is not a small thing.

And this is before we know how Yozakura and Mitama settle. I find it a bit alarming tbh, whole 7 spots are up in the air plus 8th when Neverland ends, basically more than 1/3rd of the magazine.

They introduced the supposedly final boss of the series, but the series is starting another arc with another girl right before that, so we don't know if it is going to end any time soon.

You are more alarmed than the editors in Shueisha, that's for sure. Calm down, man.. XD
From where did you take that 8 series are going to end in the magazine? lol

Eh, that LN (currently out as an ongoing scanlated manga if I didn't read the JP wrong) is just okay. It has an hook-you-in name, and handles women okay. The fact that that in itself is worthy of applause is disheartening. 29 to JK does it a lot better imo, the MC is just so goddamn real that even though the situation yells "HAREM SHIT" the entire series is so damn good and enjoyable.

If you are reading the manga I cannot comment because manga based on light novels are generally garbage.

 

[Aipom626]

I am not so sure about Yui, especially with the recent developments. They can do a 5-round if they want to, especially with losing 2 veterans in Souma and Hinomaru and Neverland near it's end. That is not a small thing.

And this is before we know how Yozakura and Mitama settle. I find it a bit alarming tbh, whole 7 spots are up in the air plus 8th when Neverland ends, basically more than 1/3rd of the magazine.

That may be a bit unsettling, but it also serves as a good chance to get some new blood in the magazine, especially since so many of the slots have been controlled by an essentially immovable group of veteran works. The fact that some of the older works are preparing for their conclusions is good in my mind solely because this will hopefully give the authors a chance to carefully think through the series' conclusion rather than having to wrap up all the loose ends quickly in the case of being told they're axed after all these years.

Although many of the new series from the past 2-ish years have really struggled to take off, I'd say the upcoming year would be the best time for an author to try to plant their roots in the WSJ lineup. With all these slots going to be up for grabs, authors may as well try to get while the getting's good.

 

[Leoat12]

The new mangas has been struggling because there isn't much space to begin wit in the magazine. The ones in bold are the established ones:

Yakusoku no Neverland
Kimetsu no Yaiba
Boku no Hero Academia
Dr. Stone
One Piece
Boku-tachi wa Benkyou ga Dekinai
Jujutsu Kaisen
Haikyuu!!
Black Clover
Yozakura-san Chi no Dai Sakusen
Act-Age
Mitama Secu-Rei-ty
Chainsaw-man
Yuragi-sou no Yuuna-san
Kamio Yui wa Kami wo Yui
Samurai 8
Futari no Taisei
Tokyo Shinobi Squad
Beast Children

There is only two spots above the infamous bottom 5. That's harsh, unless you are good enough to take the place of someone established, you are going to suffer to keep even mid positions in the TOC.

 

[Jovan]

You are more alarmed than the editors in Shueisha, that's for sure. Calm down, man.. XD
From where did you take that 8 series are going to end in the magazine? lol

I guess so lol, I tend to overanalyze thing in my head, so that happens.

I didn't say 8 are gonna end, but 8 question mark spots: 1 currently taken by special chapters, Beast, Taisei, Tokyo, Yui, post Neverland's ending and Yozakura/Mitama which can go both ways.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 6, 2019 ---

The new mangas has been struggling because there isn't much space to begin wit in the magazine. The ones in bold are the established ones:

Yakusoku no Neverland
Kimetsu no Yaiba
Boku no Hero Academia
Dr. Stone
One Piece
Boku-tachi wa Benkyou ga Dekinai
Jujutsu Kaisen
Haikyuu!!
Black Clover
Yozakura-san Chi no Dai Sakusen
Act-Age
Mitama Secu-Rei-ty
Chainsaw-man
Yuragi-sou no Yuuna-san
Kamio Yui wa Kami wo Yui
Samurai 8
Futari no Taisei
Tokyo Shinobi Squad
Beast Children

There is only two spots above the infamous bottom 5. That's harsh, unless you are good enough to take the place of someone established, you are going to suffer to keep even mid positions in the TOC.

That's the thing. They need newbies that will be liked more than some of the veterans.

The fact neither are able to kick Yuuna of all things down is saying enough imo. Besides atrocious sales for eveyone besides S8.

 

[savethecat]

I know I’m in the minority that thinks this, but personally I think a couple more spots should be added.
Some one mentioned it before. But having a couple series that were Bi Weekly, and a couple series that were just monthly would be cool

 

[Leoat12]

I guess so lol, I tend to overanalyze thing in my head, so that happens.

I didn't say 8 are gonna end, but 8 question mark spots: 1 currently taken by special chapters, Beast, Taisei, Tokyo, Yui, post Neverland's ending and Yozakura/Mitama which can go both ways.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 6, 2019 ---

That's the thing. They need newbies that will be liked nore than some of the veterans.

The fact neither are able to kick Yuuna of all things down is saying enough imo.

Well, this is natural for the magazine, it always has been like this.
There is always something that appears and surprises. We have none right now, even Yozakura, which I like, I don't see like a tremendous success material, just average. Let's wait and see...