One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[nik87]

Everything is pointing to the sword being special

There shouldn't be a YONKO tier sword tho.

Arent these contradictory?
If the sword was special, Shutenmaru would have used it but in Wano country, nobody aside from Oden could make use of it because only Oden had such CoA mastery aka it means the user was special.

Enma multiplies the strength of the swordman.

That's not how it works. There is no multiplicator.
Enma sucks out the Haki, it cannot suck out more than the user has and in the end, both Oden and Zoro should have mastery over it so it cant such out anything or not more than they intend to release.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Arent these contradictory?
If the sword was special, Shutenmaru would have used it but in Wano country, nobody aside from Oden could make use of it because only Oden had such CoA mastery aka it means the user was special.

That's not how it works. There is no multiplicator.
Enma sucks out the Haki, it cannot suck out more than the user has and in the end, both Oden and Zoro should have mastery over it so it cant such out anything or not more than they intend to release.

I'm not being contradictory. I said their SHOULDN'T be a Yonko tier sword, But everything is point to "yes there is"' I dont like it, but I have to accept it if that is the case.

Or rather, Enma teaches you the haki control needed to damage a Yonko

 

[nik87]

Enma teaches you the haki control needed to damage a Yonko

I dont think the training of preventing Haki from leaking is what allows one to harm Kaido. Luffy didnt train that and will likely harm Kaido.
It is the same as using Sea Stone shackles to train for a DF user.
Without Enma and Kairoseki cuffs, you dont encounter such challenge/such training but they are not what makes you strong, even if you discard Enma, the result of the training remains. Before Enma came along we never knew that Zoro has some issue with CoA, the Enma is what brings the issue but I still have to see how neutralizing that issue makes Zoro stronger. I am very skeptical about it.

 

[Fox666]

Enma sucks out the Haki, it cannot suck out more than the user has and in the end

It's a cliché in anime/manga

Enma would allow the user to release more Haki than normal, but would drain it much faster

 

[Pirate Queen]

I dont think the training of preventing Haki from leaking is what allows one to harm Kaido. Luffy didnt train that and will likely harm Kaido.
It is the same as using Sea Stone shackles to train for a DF user.
Without Enma and Kairoseki cuffs, you dont encounter such challenge/such training but they are not what makes you strong, even if you discard Enma, the result of the training remains. Before Enma came along we never knew that Zoro has some issue with CoA, the Enma is what brings the issue but I still have to see how neutralizing that issue makes Zoro stronger. I am very skeptical about it.

Did you ever watch bleach?

 

[Ero-Sanji]

Why would Akainu lie about Roger being stronger then WB and WB no dent it? Garp isnt like the other marines and he acknowledged Rogers strength.

Your thought that, because a marine said it you can doubt it doesnt really work when there is other outside evidence to back those claims up.

Roger was the strongest. It's been stated by everyone who has seen or known him personally. Why you disregard it without any facts to back your claims are confusing. It's a weird hill for you to die on

Who said Akainu lied? Did Boa Hancock lie when she said that Fisher Tiger was a cruel racist? Did all of North Blue lie when they said that Norland was a liar? Is the entire world lying when they claim that Robin burned down her entire village or that the name of the Pirate king is Gold Roger? Seriously, how many chapters did we go thinking that that was his actual name? For how long did we go thinking that Roger got captured?

Myth, propaganda and perception are one of the main themes of this series. Heck, the title of the series is a myth itself. The myth, that Roger started himself, is that One Piece is a treasure, but is that the truth?

Akainu didn't say that Roger and Whitebeard fought and Roger came on top. Matter of fact, no one has said that. The perception is that the two competed for the same price, and that WB lost because Rogers was declared Pirate king and not him. Therefore Rogers was the strongest. But the reality is that WB lost a race he never participated in.

Anyway, those are my two cents and we're probably going to disagree. As Goldb sais, we are off topic but perhaps we can have discuss it more when the God valley incident gets explained. Or maybe during this flashback.

 

[HereNThere]

The way I see it, Enma is basically teaching Zoro how to properly regulate Ryou by force. Luffy had to work towards the feeling of how to use Ryou, but Enma forcing it out gives Zoro the feeling already. Now he just needs to work towards refining it and keeping it in check. With that done, he'd be able to use it for the rest of his blades after he masters Enma.

 

[M3J]

Garp saw it first hand, Sengoku saw it firsthand, Rayliegh saw it firsthand, Whitebeard, Shiki, Shanks, Big Mom... all saw Roger's strength first hand

Given we've seen an example of Roger beating Shiki thanks to luck of nature and be considered better than Shiki, I have no reason to believe for sure that he's stronger or superior. How do we know luck didn't allow Roger to survive or beat the likes of Whitebeard and Garp, leading people to think he was stronger?

The manga also hinted that Roger never fought Big Mom or Kaidou, just that he managed to get to their Poneglyphs. Didn't Morgans, a guy who was actually there, reported Luffy beat Big Mom even though he couldn't even put a scratch on her? I almost forgot, but even Garp and Rayleigh said that luck played a huge part in Roger's success in becoming the Pirate King.



Anyway, Orochi is such a devious, shitty snake for what he did. Wonder if we'll get a flashback as to what led him to do what he did. So far the flashback is okay, but it's not like I expected a stellar flashback from Oda. Did Neko and Inu sneak aboard Whitebeard's ship to be with Oden? Kinda looking forward to the next chapter to see what happens with the fight.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Given we've seen an example of Roger beating Shiki thanks to luck of nature and be considered better than Shiki, I have no reason to believe for sure that he's stronger or superior. How do we know luck didn't allow Roger to survive or beat the likes of Whitebeard and Garp, leading people to think he was stronger?

The manga also hinted that Roger never fought Big Mom or Kaidou, just that he managed to get to their Poneglyphs. Didn't Morgans, a guy who was actually there, reported Luffy beat Big Mom even though he couldn't even put a scratch on her? I almost forgot, but even Garp and Rayleigh said that luck played a huge part in Roger's success in becoming the Pirate King.



Anyway, Orochi is such a devious, shitty snake for what he did. Wonder if we'll get a flashback as to what led him to do what he did. So far the flashback is okay, but it's not like I expected a stellar flashback from Oda. Did Neko and Inu sneak aboard Whitebeard's ship to be with Oden? Kinda looking forward to the next chapter to see what happens with the fight.

No one but a small section of readers have ever doubted Roger's strength. Not a single person in the manga has.

Only the readers doubt him, even those with firsthand knowledge have ever spoken about Roger being anything but the strongest.

Despite his luck, Shiki never claimed to be stronger than Roger. Whitebeard. Big Mom. never claimed to be stronger. Garp. Sengoku. These are more trustworthy sources than just having an opinion on the matter. His strength has always been mentioned in exposition to something, which is an odd time to lie or be untruthful.


Nothing has given any reason to doubt Roger's strength except for readers throwing out random theories of him not being the strongest.

 

[King Moe]

The way I see it, Enma is basically teaching Zoro how to properly regulate Ryou by force. Luffy had to work towards the feeling of how to use Ryou, but Enma forcing it out gives Zoro the feeling already. Now he just needs to work towards refining it and keeping it in check. With that done, he'd be able to use it for the rest of his blades after he masters Enma.

Highly doubt Zoro knows Ryou as more the sword just cutting stronger as don't see it hurting the insides like what Luffy doing.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Highly doubt Zoro knows Ryou as more the sword just cutting stronger as don't see it hurting the insides like what Luffy doing.

Ryou is just flowing CoA. Yes Zoro knows it, learned it back in Arabasta to defeat Mr. 1. It just wasnt named Ryou yet

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Didn't Morgans, a guy who was actually there, reported Luffy beat Big Mom even though he couldn't even put a scratch on her? I almost forgot, but even Garp and Rayleigh said that luck played a huge part in Roger's success in becoming the Pirate King.

Wrong! Morgan didn't report that. He said Luffy beat 2 of her commanders which he did. Luffy escaped Big Mom and that was considered a win for him.

Also wrong again! Rayleigh didn't say that. What he said about luck was Roger's smaller crew being able to wreck Shiki's fleets (due to a storm).
Shiki is definitely no match for Roger. He said it himself and worth noting is that he had the most remarkable reaction when he heard about Roger's capture by the Marines, stating it was impossible and that the news was a lie. He had to bust in to the Marine's base to find out himself.

That's how much Roger was respected and feared. He's the one man you can't defeat!

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2019 ---

The manga also hinted that Roger never fought Big Mom or Kaidou, just that he managed to get to their Poneglyphs.

He already defeated someone who's far superior to them so it's not a question of strength. Big Mom noted that Roger stole her poneglyph which he must have his reasons for doing. One of which is to conquer the world before his fatal sickness gets the best of him. Going to war would only be seen as wasting valuable time he doesn't have. So a quick sneak and grab was in order.
Also there was no mention of Kaido possessing poneglyphs at that time.

 

[AmitDS]

Illnesses always affect strength. He may not have been at his weakest, but it definitely affected him.
Just look at Whitebeard in Marineford, he kept going on even in sickness. Roger's isn't any different.




I'll give you this one even though those vivre cards have been inaccurate sometimes.

What Roger and Garp did was something remarkable and was testament to their peak strength (or close to it).
When it comes to been prime, generally the ages between 35 and 55 seem consistent with most characters.
• Current Yonko like Kaido, Shanks, Blackbeard, fall in this age group.
• The Admirals - Akainu, Fujitora, Kizaru, Kuzan, (Greenbull too once we get his full reveal) are all considered to be in their prime and fall in this age group.
• Most of the Shichibukai - Mihawk, Kuma, Doffy, (even Weevil unsurprisingly) and a few others are also in their prime and around this age.
• Yonko commanders like Katakuri, Marco, Jozu, Smoothie, Queen, Benn Beckman, all fall in this age group.
• Other powerful characters like Perospero, Oven, Vergo, and many others likewise belong there.

Therefore it's not farfetched to think Roger reached his prime during the God Valley incident and maintained peak strength or continued to grow stronger until his death at 53.
He was in his prime, just as Kaido and Shanks are currently in their prime.
It means throughout their life, both Roger and Newgate were at their strongest between 35-55 years of age. So Roger died while still in his prime (albeit ill). He definitely wasn't at his strongest during his final voyage that I'm certain.

Most characters start to dwindle and get weaker once they're approaching 60 and beyond (take Chin Jiao for example, and every living legend in the story). The only exception to this is BIG MOM.
She seems to be getting stronger as she ages and is even said to be at her strongest currently. So her case is very unique.

So yeah, if we go by the consistency of what is considered to be prime age, i.e 35-55, the triple threat of Roger, Garp, and Whitebeard reached their prime 40 years ago, and during the 20 year of prime time from then on, they each attained their greatest achievements and were at the peak of their strength within that 20 years interval.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2019 ---

Like Big Mom, Luffy's also going to be an exception since he'll most likely reach his prime by 20 and should maintain peak strength till the usual decline of strength at around age 60. That's if he lives that long. I do remember he had shortened his life at Impel Down and Marineford when he overextended himself beyond his limits.

Wouldn't this all mean that Oden was as powerful as Prime Roger, Prime Garp and Prime WB/ them at their strongest, essentially making him way beyond Kaido when he beat him and even current Kaido?

Until we get confirmation that this is true it is more logical to assume that Garp and WB were at their strongest around 20-25 years ago when they themselves were in their late 40s-early 50s as opposed to 40 years ago when Big Mom and WB were weaker than and subservient to ROCKS? Wouldn't that man that Rocks is the strongest character if he was stronger than Garp, Roger and WB individually 40 years ago when they were allegedly in their prime?

This assumption would also mean that Big Mom > WB /Roger since when she was their rival 20+ years ago she was not at her peak but is now notably stronger while they could not grow past that point?

Isn't it also a little premature to say that WB reached his prime by age 44 but other characters are at their peak in their 50s? I mean Akainu is 55 right now and is assumed to be in his prime and 20-25 years ago WB and Roger would have been in their 50s too and this is when Roger became PK and around the time WB was WSM and him and Big Mom became Emperors. When Roger became PK he was in his late 40s- early 50s (he died at age 53) and 20 years ago WB would have been 54 while Big Mom would have been 48 and Garp would have been 58 so the 20-25 year thing fits into your narrative as well as a possible time for their prime.

I don't deny that it is possible that he is on par with Prime WB and this could be prime WB, just that so far, IMO, it doesn't make sense.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Wouldn't this all mean that Oden was as powerful as Prime Roger, Prime Garp and Prime WB/ them at their strongest, essentially making him way beyond Kaido when he beat him and even current Kaido?

Not at all. I just looked it up. Being prime does not equate to being at peak strength.
Moreover Oden clashed evenly with prime Whitebeard in like half a minute. That doesn't make him Whitebeard's equal. It just confirms he's much powerful.

It's safe to say that neither were Yonko level at that point since we aren't getting the sky split associated with 2 Yonko level characters clashing.

Wouldn't that man that Rocks is the strongest character if he was stronger than Garp, Roger and WB individually 40 years ago when they were allegedly in their prime?

Exactly! Rocks seem to be the strongest thing back then. Roger and co were in their prime yes, but they haven't reached their peak strength 40 years ago. And I agree with you that they most likely - especially in Whitebeard's case - reached peak strength (at their strongest) at around 20 years ago.

Isn't it also a little premature to say that WB reached his prime by age 44 but other characters are at their peak in their 50s? I mean Akainu is 55 right now and is assumed to be in his prime and 20-25 years ago WB and Roger would have been in their 50s too and this is when Roger became PK and around the time WB was WSM and him and Big Mom became Emperors. When Roger became PK he was in his late 40s- early 50s (he died at age 53) and 20 years ago WB would have been 54 while Big Mom would have been 48 and Garp would have been 58 so the 20-25 year thing fits into your narrative as well as a possible time for their prime.

Again, It's very consistent that the strongest/peak strength of nearly all characters is during their prime (between age 35-55). And just as you said Akainu is 55 and still in his prime.
Whitebeard is still within his prime by age 44. If other characters reached their peak strength by age 50 as you claim (which isn't consistent since age of peak strength is bound to differ), then the logic is still quite accurate.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Its pretty obvious Oda is using the "Sky Splitting" Sequences to show one is truly "YONKO LEVEL"

Hence Shanks vs Whitebeard and Kaido vs Big Mom.

No doubt Luffy is going to be "splitting the sky" before this arc ends.

That will be extremely exciting.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I don't deny that it is possible that he is on par with Prime WB and this could be prime WB, just that so far, IMO, it doesn't make sense.

If you're referring to Oden, then there's the possibility since Whitebeard during their clash has not attained Yonko status (meaning he's not at his most powerful yet). But even with that there's room for doubt since it's just a single clash and not a full blown battle.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2019 ---

This same reason applies to why pre Yonko Shanks (Mihawk's rival) can't be compared to current Yonko Shanks (other Yonko's rival) since Yonko level is the highest combat level anyone can be at bar PK level.

 

[AmitDS]

Not at all. I just looked it up. Being prime does not equate to being at peak strength.
Moreover Oden clashed evenly with prime Whitebeard in like half a minute. That doesn't make him Whitebeard's equal. It just confirms he's much powerful.

It's safe to say that neither were Yonko level at that point since we aren't getting the sky split associated with 2 Yonko level characters clashing.



Exactly! Rocks seem to be the strongest thing back then. Roger and co were in their prime yes, but they haven't reached their peak strength 40 years ago. And I agree with you that they most likely - especially in Whitebeard's case - reached peak strength (at their strongest) at around 20 years ago.




Again, It's very consistent that the strongest/peak strength of nearly all characters is during their prime (between age 35-55). And just as you said Akainu is 55 and still in his prime.
Whitebeard is still within his prime by age 44. If other characters reached their peak strength by age 50 as you claim (which isn't consistent since age of peak strength is bound to differ), then the logic is still quite accurate.

In the context of this discussion I, and I assume most people here, consider PRIME = STRONGEST FORM and the argument is about whether WB was at his zenith in terms of power in this flashback.

If you're referring to Oden, then there's the possibility since Whitebeard during their clash has not attained Yonko status (meaning he's not at his most powerful yet). But even with that there's room for doubt since it's just a single clash and not a full blown battle.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2019 ---

This same reason applies to why pre Yonko Shanks (Mihawk's rival) can't be compared to current Yonko Shanks (other Yonko's rival) since Yonko level is the highest combat level anyone can be at bar PK level.

But this is what I was saying from the start, there is no proof that this is Prime WB as people are claiming or the strongest form of WB fighting Oden and that WB would not be at his most powerful when he was older than shown here.

My point is that there is no cap for WB or any character to be at their strongest in their 40s and then weaken with age since, as I said, Big Mom, Roger and even WB seemingly got their biggest titles when they were in their late 40s and early 50s. Big Mom has been an undefeated emperor for around 2 decades, Roger became PK a little over 2 decades ago and WB was an Emperor and still clashing with him around this time (Shanks and Buggy remember) and was already known as WSM. Also their clash didn't seem to split the heavens like WB and Shanks or Big Mom and Kaido's clashes.

So my point is that it is possible and even likely that WB was not at his strongest here, regardless of if he ties with or beats Oden next chapter and that so far there is evidence of this i.e. Roger and WB getting their bigger achievements later on.

 

[M3J]

Wrong! Morgan didn't report that. He said Luffy beat 2 of her commanders which he did. Luffy escaped Big Mom and that was considered a win for him.

Also wrong again! Rayleigh didn't say that. What he said about luck was Roger's smaller crew being able to wreck Shiki's fleets (due to a storm).
Shiki is definitely no match for Roger. He said it himself and worth noting is that he had the most remarkable reaction when he heard about Roger's capture by the Marines, stating it was impossible and that the news was a lie. He had to bust in to the Marine's base to find out himself.

That's how much Roger was respected and feared. He's the one man you can't defeat!

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2019 ---

He already defeated someone who's far superior to them so it's not a question of strength. Big Mom noted that Roger stole her poneglyph which he must have his reasons for doing. One of which is to conquer the world before his fatal sickness gets the best of him. Going to war would only be seen as wasting valuable time he doesn't have. So a quick sneak and grab was in order.
Also there was no mention of Kaido possessing poneglyphs at that time.

But it also led to Luffy being considered the fifth emperor when he lacks the strength to be one.

Okay Hannibal Psych, Rayleigh said luck helped him beat Shiki's huge fleet, but Garp also said luck or recklessness helped Roger become the Pirate King, and/or that his recklessness is what made him succeed. Luck was the storm happening at a convenient time that did enough damage to take out most of Shiki's fleet. There's still no reason believe Roger was superior or that much superior to Whitebeard and Garp.

It is given Kaidou's hype. However, Roger not fighting Big Mom for the Poneglyph says a lot, especially since he was willing to fight Garp and Whitebeard all the time. But then again, One Piece wiki does also mention that Kaidou wasn't an Emperor at the time of Roger's execution.

 

[Rmstorm]

But it also led to Luffy being considered the fifth emperor when he lacks the strength to be one.

Okay Hannibal Psych, Rayleigh said luck helped him beat Shiki's huge fleet, but Garp also said luck or recklessness helped Roger become the Pirate King, and/or that his recklessness is what made him succeed. Luck was the storm happening at a convenient time that did enough damage to take out most of Shiki's fleet. There's still no reason believe Roger was superior or that much superior to Whitebeard and Garp.

It is given Kaidou's hype. However, Roger not fighting Big Mom for the Poneglyph says a lot, especially since he was willing to fight Garp and Whitebeard all the time. But then again, One Piece wiki does also mention that Kaidou wasn't an Emperor at the time of Roger's execution.

He was sick bring ravaged by the illness on his final voyage according to Rayleigh.


He visited Big Mom's island on his final voyage. He was sick and dying, getting weaker.

So obviously, he would avoid fighting Big Mom. He was not at his peak strength, like he was earlier.

He started getting sick before age 50.

Rogers prime was from age 42 years ago until 28 years ago when he got sick.

Roger and Garp hit their Prime way earlier than Whitebeard, Big Mom and Kaido.

They were active 53 years ago. Roger had his crew 53 years ago.

During God Valley he was in his prime, even Whitebeard still has not reached Roger's level in chapter 963.

He does not have Rogers attack scar on his chest nor does he have the WSM title on his intro box.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

In the context of this discussion I, and I assume most people here, consider PRIME = STRONGEST FORM and the argument is about whether WB was at his zenith in terms of power in this flashback.



But this is what I was saying from the start, there is no proof that this is Prime WB as people are claiming or the strongest form of WB fighting Oden and that WB would not be at his most powerful when he was older than shown here.

My point is that there is no cap for WB or any character to be at their strongest in their 40s and then weaken with age since, as I said, Big Mom, Roger and even WB seemingly got their biggest titles when they were in their late 40s and early 50s. Big Mom has been an undefeated emperor for around 2 decades, Roger became PK a little over 2 decades ago and WB was an Emperor and still clashing with him around this time (Shanks and Buggy remember) and was already known as WSM.

So my point is that it is possible and even likely that WB was not at his strongest here, regardless of if he ties with or beats Oden next chapter and that so far there is evidence of this i.e. Roger and WB getting their bigger achievements later on.

Oh! Now I see where the problem is.

You consider prime WB = WB at his strongest.
I consider prime WB = younger, powerful WB who's neither old nor sick (not necessarily at his strongest) just as shown in the latest chapter.

If you analyse both our views carefully, then you'll notice that in context of the story, whenever prime WB is mentioned, my POV is what is usually meant.
Take Weevil for example, he's said to have a the strength of Prime WB. If what is meant is WB at his strongest, then there'll be 3 admirals sent to capture him now and not fodder marine soldiers, since it took that number of admirals to gain the upper hand against an old WB in Marineford.
Additionally, Weevil would be considered the strongest pirate currently and the new WSM if the definition of prime WB in the story is the way you define it. But he's not. He's just another force to be reckoned with and is definitely not as powerful as the Yonkos.

So I think your definition of prime WB is the problem.

So my point is that it is possible and even likely that WB was not at his strongest here, regardless of if he ties with or beats Oden next chapter and that so far there is evidence of this i.e. Roger and WB getting their bigger achievements later on.

Spot on mate! WB is at his prime here in the Oden clash but not at his strongest, simple.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2019 ---

but Garp also said luck or recklessness helped Roger become the Pirate King

Can you back this statement please?

But it also led to Luffy being considered the fifth emperor when he lacks the strength to be one.

You said Morgan said Luffy beat Big Mom. I dare you to back this up as well.

Luffy's considered a fifth emperor, but there can only be 4. Meaning he's seen as the closest among normal pirates to become an emperor. Obviously he can't be as strong as an actual emperor. Not yet at least.