Fantasy Zoro v Kaido

[ish3]

Normally I don’t jump into these but just to humor myself I reread zoro vs kuma plus rewatched the anime portion of the fight. It was even remotely close zoro just like the rest of the strawhats were completely outclassed against kuma.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 8, 2020 ---

I think to show true growth we need to see zoro show his full potential against one opponent and grow in another fight like luffy has. In my head I can see zoro fighting king as his final fight and the first fight against cracker or another commander. The crew has no choice anyway but to evolve not only for themselves but for luffy. There won’t be a “coming back to wano arc” just to beat kaido anyway. It’s now or never. I wish other samurai were hyped to be as strong as kaido or 1st tier commander but I don’t see anyone hitting that mark on wano but king atm.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 8, 2020 ---

The speed feats powerups and battles are about to be insane soon I’m ready.

 

[Shasha23]

Normally I don’t jump into these but just to humor myself I reread zoro vs kuma plus rewatched the anime portion of the fight. It was even remotely close zoro just like the rest of the strawhats were completely outclassed against kuma.

Saying outclassed is an exaggeration, when Kuma started his attack all the strawhats were at their limit, and Zoro did pretty good his only reason for losing was because his body could not move anymore not because Kuma beat him, i mean none of Kuma's attacks even landed on Zoro in their fight.

 

[nik87]

Why are we debating Luffy vs Zoro? It's pretty obvious who is stronger out of the two at least at this point in the story.

Yeah, to me it is obvious that Zoro stomps.

Saying outclassed is an exaggeration, when Kuma started his attack all the strawhats were at their limit, and Zoro did pretty good his only reason for losing was because his body could not move anymore not because Kuma beat him, i mean none of Kuma's attacks even landed on Zoro in their fight.

Exactly, at no point was Kuma stomping Zoro. Zoro's body simply gave up before Kuma landed a single hit and even in such condition Zoro evaded the Pad Canon and laser shots as well as teleportation sneak-ups.

 

[Fox666]

Honestly doesn't matter if the Strawhats were already tired. Kuma was on a completely different league, and the fight would have ended the same way even if the Strawhats were at 100%.

 

[Shasha23]

Honestly doesn't matter if the Strawhats were already tired. Kuma was on a completely different league, and the fight would have ended the same way even if the Strawhats were at 100%.

Prove it, you cant just say your own bais is 100% fact when in actuality we saw a Zoro at his limit dodge each of his attacks.
You people just like sucking on Kuma's paw so hard, there is nothing about the guy that says he was more than what the crew can handle.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Prove it, you cant just say your own bais is 100% fact when in actuality we saw a Zoro at his limit dodge each of his attacks.
You people just like sucking on Kuma's paw so hard, there is nothing about the guy that says he was more than what the crew can handle.

Im not sure how this started but do you think the crew at full power could have defeated Kuma?

 

[Shasha23]

Im not sure how this started but do you think the crew at full power could have defeated Kuma?

Yeap nothing he showed tells me he would beat the crew at full strength, the only shichibukai pre-time skip who would stomp the crew no dif were Jimbe, Doffy, Boa and Mihawk.
Sure thing they probably couldnt solo him but all of them working together, nah Kuma losses.

 

[ish3]

You guys are disturbingly underestimating kuma when the entire crew struggled to beat just one px clone of him....tired or not they couldn’t beat him pre time skip. Anyone saying otherwise needs to reread the manga and the anime.

 

[Shasha23]

Anyone with a brain can clearly see that Kuma was not that powerful, in One Piece a tricky ability has never meant you are all-powerful but it seems you just dont get this simple truth.

 

[M3J]

You guys are disturbingly underestimating kuma when the entire crew struggled to beat just one px clone of him....tired or not they couldn’t beat him pre time skip. Anyone saying otherwise needs to reread the manga and the anime.

Exactly, and all Kuma had to do was just "throw" some of them into the sea and others into a Marines headquarters to beat them, even if by some impossible reason he couldn't beat them in a fight.

 

[nik87]

Kuma is a tricky one, I dont think the numbers against him in case of pre-TS Strawhats play a role.
He has tricky abilities that neutralize the numbers, such as teleport. Whatever combo they can come up with and just when they are about to hit him he teleports away. If the battle would actually take place I think Oda wouldnt use the ability to send them flying away since that is just broken and can send anybody flying.

His palms are also broken due to the ability to deflect literally anything. If Oda would not abuse the teleport ability then there would be a chance for victory due to numbers however if Kuma uses the two palms to deflect Luffy and Zoro, even if all others land their attacks, they have nothing to damage Kuma.
I think Kuma is overall pretty broken character only beatable by some large AoE which is not in one piece to be deflected easily or due to outspeeding him so he cannot deflect with paws.

 

[Shasha23]

Kuma is a tricky one, I dont think the numbers against him in case of pre-TS Strawhats play a role.
He has tricky abilities that neutralize the numbers, such as teleport. Whatever combo they can come up with and just when they are about to hit him he teleports away. If the battle would actually take place I think Oda wouldnt use the ability to send them flying away since that is just broken and can send anybody flying.

His palms are also broken due to the ability to deflect literally anything. If Oda would not abuse the teleport ability then there would be a chance for victory due to numbers however if Kuma uses the two palms to deflect Luffy and Zoro, even if all others land their attacks, they have nothing to damage Kuma.
I think Kuma is overall pretty broken character only beatable by some large AoE which is not in one piece to be deflected easily or due to outspeeding him so he cannot deflect with paws.

nope we already saw that all of the strawhats can damage the metal Kuma is made off when they beat PX-4, like you said Luffy and Zoro force him to block and Sanji lands flabage shot and Kuma will start breaking apart, you guys seriously overhype the paw paw fruit too much, the ability is tricky but that doesnt make Kuma unbeatable, i mean all of the crew showed the can react and dodge light speed attacks and they all showed they could damage the material used to build the PX bodies, they only need to find a way to stop him from blocking them and stopping him from targeting the weaker members so he doesnt send them flying and its pretty much a win.

 

[nik87]

nope we already saw that all of the strawhats can damage the metal Kuma is made off when they beat PX-4, like you said Luffy and Zoro force him to block and Sanji lands flabage shot and Kuma will start breaking apart, you guys seriously overhype the paw paw fruit too much, the ability is tricky but that doesnt make Kuma unbeatable, i mean all of the crew showed the can react and dodge light speed attacks and they all showed they could damage the material used to build the PX bodies, they only need to find a way to stop him from blocking them and stopping him from targeting the weaker members so he doesnt send them flying and its pretty much a win.

Well, they did do some damage to PX-4 but I think it is different to fight Kuma compared to a robot replica. Kuma with a sound mind and the Paw Paw fruit plus teleportation is a different thing. Oda crammed broken abilities into him and took him out without anyone fighting him, probably because it is not that easy to justify a win against such abilities. I place Kuma as the strongest Warlord under Mihawk.

Another example to show how broken Kuma is, can Big Mom beat him? Has she shown anything to be able to win against Kuma? I didnt see anything.

 

[Shasha23]

Well, they did do some damage to PX-4 but I think it is different to fight Kuma compared to a robot replica. Kuma with a sound mind and the Paw Paw fruit plus teleportation is a different thing. Oda crammed broken abilities into him and took him out without anyone fighting him, probably because it is not that easy to justify a win against such abilities. I place Kuma as the strongest Warlord under Mihawk.

Another example to show how broken Kuma is, can Big Mom beat him? Has she shown anything to be able to win against Kuma? I didnt see anything.

Zoro, while bearly able to move, was able to react to his teleportation so a health full power Zoro can do much better, i mean Kuma couldnt even land a hit on Zoro and lets not forget his paw deflection power is useless on Luffy since he wont take any damage from being deflected. Kuma is someone with strong defence and weak offence, there is just no way he can beat the Strawhats when they are all fully fit.

Dude Boa just needs 1 touch and its gg Kuma, she has all forms of haki so she can predict Kuma and can block his ability with COA, Kuma is not stronger than her in any situation
Jimbe has COA and again the paw paw abilities are rendered useless, same goes for Doffy, they all have haki and their feats all put them well above Kuma.

Linlin is a master haki user, air cannon and beams will be useless on her, she wont even need to dodge anything she would just need to land one hit and its over for Kuma, i seriously cant see what makes you power scale him so much when all his abilities are far below that of the other shichibukai

 

[nik87]

Zoro, while bearly able to move, was able to react to his teleportation so a health full power Zoro can do much better, i mean Kuma couldnt even land a hit on Zoro and lets not forget his paw deflection power is useless on Luffy since he wont take any damage from being deflected. Kuma is someone with strong defence and weak offence, there is just no way he can beat the Strawhats when they are all fully fit.

Dude Boa just needs 1 touch and its gg Kuma, she has all forms of haki so she can predict Kuma and can block his ability with COA, Kuma is not stronger than her in any situation
Jimbe has COA and again the paw paw abilities are rendered useless, same goes for Doffy, they all have haki and their feats all put them well above Kuma.

Linlin is a master haki user, air cannon and beams will be useless on her, she wont even need to dodge anything she would just need to land one hit and its over for Kuma, i seriously cant see what makes you power scale him so much when all his abilities are far below that of the other shichibukai

Kuma's offense should be fine considering the pad cannon which penetrates everything and he has Kizaru's lasers.

How comes that haki neutralizes his paws? When has haki stopped any DF ability from working? I put Boa equal to Kuma, Jinbe a bit weaker on land.

Air pad cannon produces a shockwave and that cannot be blocked by anything so OLin would take damage and she is too slow to just easily land a hit on Kuma.

 

[Shasha23]

Kuma's offense should be fine considering the pad cannon which penetrates everything and he has Kizaru's lasers.

How comes that haki neutralizes his paws? When has haki stopped any DF ability from working? I put Boa equal to Kuma, Jinbe a bit weaker on land.

Air pad cannon produces a shockwave and that cannot be blocked by anything so OLin would take damage and she is too slow to just easily land a hit on Kuma.

Haki has been stated multiple times to be able to block abilities; e.g Shanks used a haki sword to block a magma fist even tricky abilities like the ope ope no mi can be blocked with haki, so his pad canons or ability to bounce of attacks becomes useless.

Linlin has shown to be deceptively fast, she can easily match Kaido, the same Kaido who blitzed G4 Luffy, she is even fast enough to toy with Brook, let's not forget that Eva-chan said Kuma is weaker than him and Eva himself is no big deal.

 

[nik87]

Haki has been stated multiple times to be able to block abilities; e.g Shanks used a haki sword to block a magma fist even tricky abilities like the ope ope no mi can be blocked with haki, so his pad canons or ability to bounce of attacks becomes useless.

Linlin has shown to be deceptively fast, she can easily match Kaido, the same Kaido who blitzed G4 Luffy, she is even fast enough to toy with Brook, let's not forget that Eva-chan said Kuma is weaker than him and Eva himself is no big deal.

Well, Shanks didnt stop magma from working, he created a haki blast barrier. Would the same work against Paws? Idk, perhaps, it may stop Paws from touching you. Those who dont have haki blast arent so lucky.
Yes, Law's fruit is broken so maybe it is an exception? Otherwise, powerful slow characters are simply helpless against Law.
Indeed, she matched Kaido but her own speed feats in combat dont seem above average to just avoid the Paws. Maybe if she splits hommies and creates 3 sources of attacks, Kuma cant block all 3.

But we went off topic, idk whether pre-TS SHs would defeat Kuma, his abilities seem a big pain in the ass...
Back to real topic, yes, Zoro is killing Kaido, the legend of dragon slaying above the capital is going to be repeated.

 

[Fox666]

Well, Shanks didnt stop magma from working, he created a haki blast barrier.

Agree.

When Akainu creates magma, it's not magical magma, it's real magma. There's no weakness.

Shanks could use Haki to block the magma coming from a real volcano.

Yes, Law's fruit is broken so maybe it is an exception? Otherwise, powerful slow characters are simply helpless against Law.

I used to think that Haki could prevent Law from using his ability, because Doflamingo said it would not work against Vergo's Haki.

However, after seeing that it was impossible for Oden to break the Bari Bari no Mi barrier, even with Haki, that's clearly not the case.

Law can only cut with his ability what he can already cut with his sword. He would be capable of cutting Vergo and the mountain in Punk Hazard with his regular swordmanship.

Like Rayleigh said, Haki can only be used to damage the "real body" of a Devil Fruit user. It doesn't help against weird abilities.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 9, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 9, 2020 ---

Prove it, you cant just say your own bais is 100% fact when in actuality we saw a Zoro at his limit dodge each of his attacks.
You people just like sucking on Kuma's paw so hard, there is nothing about the guy that says he was more than what the crew can handle.

I'm not interested in proving it.

It's obvious that Kuma is a monster, and the Strawhats never stood a chance. Zoro only lasted because Kuma was toying with him. Maybe it was pity because Luffy is Dragon's son. Either way, if Kuma wanted, he could have used Ursus Shock from the start.

There's no shame in loosing to Kuma. Zoro landed a hit on an opponent that Luffy could never defeat.

The Strawhats had to fight Kuma already exausted to prove Moriah's point, that the crew would get annihilated in the New World.

 

[Shasha23]

I'm not interested in proving it.

It's obvious that Kuma is a monster, and the Strawhats never stood a chance. Zoro only lasted because Kuma was toying with him. Maybe it was pity because Luffy is Dragon's son. Either way, if Kuma wanted, he could have used Ursus Shock from the start.

There's no shame in loosing to Kuma. Zoro landed a hit on an opponent that Luffy could never defeat.

The Strawhats had to fight Kuma already exausted to prove Moriah's point, that the crew would get annihilated in the New World.

How is it obvious they didnt stand a chance, because they were all at their limit?

Same Ursus shock that did nothing to him and the majority of the pirates there?

Of cause there is no shame in losing to Kuma, none of them would beat Kuma solo no matter what, but the entire crew could never lose to him, thats just impossible given his feats.

 

[Fox666]

If you want to talk about feats...

The entire crew almost died fighting PX-4, which is like Kuma, except without any intelligence, fighting skill, or his Devil Fruit with broken abilities.

And we also get to see how Kuma could easily get rid of a Pacifista:

Isn't that proof the crew would stand zero chance against the real Kuma?