Wasn't it tht he got ample time to rest and build up chakra, like kyuubi constantly did it during war ? Ok, let's say Shinra tensei + Chibaku tensei = all tht power used in 1 shave.
1- It is nowhere even close to Madara's meteor
2- Sussano can jump too. Sussano can be deactivated too. It also can move at considerable speed too.
The moment he uses tht, sasuke can use his very sussano to throw him up higher in air and then once the jutsu is completed, sasuke during freefall can once again activate sussano and take nagato out.
Yeah, a special set of conditions would have to be met, i.e Pains formation holding off Sasuke long enough for the blast. Of course, you could argue Sasuke could quickly get rid of the other pains and prevent it. That's fine
Not sure abt alive itachi with MS above sasuke since EMS practically takes away the blindness + gives FBS. And as for Madara's MS ability , I think he already has Tsukoyomi for sure since normal genjutsu may not work against Ay with the reflexes charged with thunder and near to 4th. He did say genjutsu, but assuming it would be real strong then.
LOL, we don't even know izuna's real abilities too
Fully mobile Nagato is different case. He would pose problem to sasuke for a while. let's not forget sasuke can use genjutsu and make pain feel illusions tht he has already used the jutsu and buy a moment and kill him before he uses it too while he gets ready to use the jutsu. Sasuke is kinda worse match for nagato or Pain..EMS sasuke i mean.
Yeah, a special set of conditions would have to be met, i.e Pains formation holding off Sasuke long enough for the blast. Of course, you could argue Sasuke could quickly get rid of the other pains and prevent it. That's fine
Just using a theoretical of Itachi with proper eyesight and illness. I would put him above EMS Sasuke
But other pains can't hold him off because once tendo starts amassing chakra, others go to sleep. Basically, u would need him bound completely in some manner and still, not sure it would work. Btw, we ignoring izanagi and izanami here, right ?
Because let's not forget sasuke may sacrifice the summoning to get away from it , kinda like the 10km blast of deidara. ....I m totally ignoring the easy way fpr sasuke to get away by summoning hawk xDDDDDD.
MS itachi still can't use MS for prolonged period despite being healthy without risks unlike EMS Sasuke, who can make it a dragged out battle.EMS basically also gives him the potential to get full sussano like maddy (It is an EMS ability), but he only showed it after getting rinnegan, so i will be excluding it here.
Yep, even though rinnegan, genjutsu does work against it. Jiraiya caught him in one, kakashi vs obito genjutsu fight.
But other pains can't hold him off because once tendo starts amassing chakra, others go to sleep. Basically, u would need him bound completely in some manner and still, not sure it would work. Btw, we ignoring izanagi and izanami here, right ?
Because let's not forget sasuke may sacrifice the summoning to get away from it , kinda like the 10km blast of deidara. ....I m totally ignoring the easy way fpr sasuke to get away by summoning hawk xDDDDDD.
Yeah ignore the izangai and reverse summoning lol. Its funny how Sasuke is like the only one used that. With the pain formation I was thinking about various summoning first and mechanical pain launching rockets, while chakra absorbing pain protects tendo. Each pain goes to sleep, after usefulness and then shinra tensei. Obviously Sasukes flame control is a hard counter here and the plan goes to shit fast.
MS itachi still can't use MS for prolonged period despite being healthy without risks unlike EMS Sasuke, who can make it a dragged out battle.EMS basically also gives him the potential to get full sussano like maddy (It is an EMS ability), but he only showed it after getting rinnegan, so i will be excluding it here.
About the genjutsu, I haven't found a direct answer online, most people say Rinnegan is immune to visual genjutsu. Jiraiya was sound and Obito also had a sharingan.
Yeah ignore the izangai and reverse summoning lol. Its funny how Sasuke is like the only one used that. With the pain formation I was thinking about various summoning first and mechanical pain launching rockets, while chakra absorbing pain protects tendo. Each pain goes to sleep, after usefulness and then shinra tensei. Obviously Sasukes flame control is a hard counter here and the plan goes to shit fast.
Oorochimaru also sacrificed his summoning during the chunin exams forest round, but not to save himself. Well, yeah, those things can work as diversion for a bit, but not able to capture them. And i think ur idea is getting each pain sleep slowly one by one. Tht may work or not depending on situations. The only way possible to get sasuke to hurt is to completely bind him up without him being able to use chakra.
Naah, sasuke has FBS, itachi doesn't. The amaterasu - sasuke has kagetsuchi , Tsukoyomi advantage - sasuke may counter it up now tht he has EMS. So, it is even more than a dragged battle. The very thing in itachi's favor is his experience + knowledge of clan in deep which even Sasuke didn't at tht time.
EMS is tht damn powerful.
About the genjutsu, I haven't found a direct answer online, most people say Rinnegan is immune to visual genjutsu. Jiraiya was sound and Obito also had a sharingan.
Well, if it had something to do with sound, then it would have been specified as only sound based genjutsu works which is not the case. Doujutsu works on anyone with eyes. Sharingan based can work on EMS too, Prime example-tsukoyomi. So, even having same eyes or superior eyes does not mean u cannot put other under genjutsu.
Moroever, Nagato didn't have tht much proficiency in genjutsu reversal since he never was an uchiha or had sharingan. The only eyes against whom even sharingan based genjutsu does not work is byakugan. U need very special ones like koto amatasukami to work against it. Source - NOVEL of ITACHI.
Byakugan can intercept every genjutsu bar Infinite tsukoyomi.
Tht brings me to Rinnegan. Yep, rinnegan does not mean he is immune to genjutsu. Tht will change the moment if it is an uchiha using rinnegan since having proficiency with it.
Btw even though obito had sharingan, he too also had rinnegan which means practically it shld be impossible to put him under genjutsu at all because if rinnegan can't be put under genjutsu, obito's rinnegan may counter it even if his sharingan can't.
But giving benefit of doubt to pain....Still, even though no genjutsu, he has way too many jutsus and diversion tactics at his arsenal. Fire style, lightning release and form changes. Ninjutsu tools etc.
Oorochimaru also sacrificed his summoning during the chunin exams forest round, but not to save himself. Well, yeah, those things can work as diversion for a bit, but not able to capture them. And i think ur idea is getting each pain sleep slowly one by one. Tht may work or not depending on situations. The only way possible to get sasuke to hurt is to completely bind him up without him being able to use chakra.
Naah, sasuke has FBS, itachi doesn't. The amaterasu - sasuke has kagetsuchi , Tsukoyomi advantage - sasuke may counter it up now tht he has EMS. So, it is even more than a dragged battle. The very thing in itachi's favor is his experience + knowledge of clan in deep which even Sasuke didn't at tht time.
EMS is tht damn powerful
Sasuke may have FBS, but itachi susanoo has the totsuka blade and yata mirror. Also, we haven’t really seen Itachi at the peak of his prowess. He’s been manipulating everything which we might see as reality, but may be an illusion. Good quote right.
Also, imo it’s his combat sense that puts him over the top in this battle. Sasuke isn’t close to EMS Madara where the power gap is too huge for Itachi to overcome.
Well, if it had something to do with sound, then it would have been specified as only sound based genjutsu works which is not the case. Doujutsu works on anyone with eyes. Sharingan based can work on EMS too, Prime example-tsukoyomi. So, even having same eyes or superior eyes does not mean u cannot put other under genjutsu.
Moroever, Nagato didn't have tht much proficiency in genjutsu reversal since he never was an uchiha or had sharingan. The only eyes against whom even sharingan based genjutsu does not work is byakugan. U need very special ones like koto amatasukami to work against it. Source - NOVEL of ITACHI.
Byakugan can intercept every genjutsu bar Infinite tsukoyomi.
Tht brings me to Rinnegan. Yep, rinnegan does not mean he is immune to genjutsu. Tht will change the moment if it is an uchiha using rinnegan since having proficiency with it.
Btw even though obito had sharingan, he too also had rinnegan which means practically it shld be impossible to put him under genjutsu at all because if rinnegan can't be put under genjutsu, obito's rinnegan may counter it even if his sharingan can't.
But giving benefit of doubt to pain....Still, even though no genjutsu, he has way too many jutsus and diversion tactics at his arsenal. Fire style, lightning release and form changes. Ninjutsu tools etc.
Thanks for the source. With Obito, I was thinking the sharing an/rinnegan combo was why. But yeah I guess Nagato shouldn’t be able to since it’s not his eyes.
I still see Nagato>Sasuke, seeing what he easily did to Bee and KCM Naruto. Then when Sasuke is about to go down, he’s able to use Itachi level genjtusu and wins.
By Pain, you mean the collective force, correct? Yeah, Sasuke shouldn't have much trouble taking them down. We've seen that figuring out their abilities and countering them is easy enough with enough intelligence. Nagato himself with all the abilities is a different situation. Itachi was able to deal with him, so Sasuke should be able to do so too, but it would probably be quite the task to do so.
Sasuke may have FBS, but itachi susanoo has the totsuka blade and yata mirror. Also, we haven’t really seen Itachi at the peak of his prowess. He’s been manipulating everything which we might see as reality, but may be an illusion. Good quote right.
Also, imo it’s his combat sense that puts him over the top in this battle. Sasuke isn’t close to EMS Madara where the power gap is too huge for Itachi to overcome
Yep, totsuka blade, which can seal everything and yata mirror which can reflect attacks, but i would say mirror's would also depend on the scale of attack done & ability to handle, else it would rebound like tendo pushed back by his own jutsu. Much like uchiha reflection Madara used.
Itachi at peak of his prowess still has very much the limitation of MS blindness + stress. He won't be able to use Tsukoyomi or Amaterasu multiple times whereas sasuke can spam them. His combat sense and experience may give him huge advantage , but EMS sasuke who faced obito with FBS's scale was big for even itachi to attain with just MS. Even if he does, managing it takes another toll.
Totsuka blade does give him advantage for sure, but knowing sasuke and how he survived multiple izanagis, outlasting totsuka attacks is something he can do....but also i do think totsuka needs to pierce target directly, and sasuke can prevent it by using his sussano.
Like i was saying the only thing in itachi's favor is his experience and knowledge which sasuke had lacked at those times. And lmao, EMS maddy is far above sasuke.
Thanks for the source. With Obito, I was thinking the sharing an/rinnegan combo was why. But yeah I guess Nagato shouldn’t be able to since it’s not his eyes.
I still see Nagato>Sasuke, seeing what he easily did to Bee and KCM Naruto. Then when Sasuke is about to go down, he’s able to use Itachi level genjtusu and wins
Tht was edo tensei nagato being used by kabuto. Nagato's big disadvantage - immobility . And unlike Naruto, Sasuke doesn't take chances. He has his backup as always. Sacrifice karin, jugo or suigetsu lmao. More than tht, he would not recklessly go in and get caught before trying to figure out his jutsu workings.
Always wondered if nagato fights himself, can he use 6 paths clones ?
LOL, Naruto getting caught by nagato was funny as hell. Realistically, he could have counterattacked the moment chamaleon caught him despite invisible and not let nagato touch him at all + let's not forget the huge advantage of naruto - his clone was already disabled due to him using so many clones. If naruto would not have had made tht many clones, he basically would have stomped tht NAGATO. As for BEE, poor BEE never learned intel and went head on for the fight.
See how they did better against Jinchurikis controlled by Obito.
By Pain, you mean the collective force, correct? Yeah, Sasuke shouldn't have much trouble taking them down. We've seen that figuring out their abilities and countering them is easy enough with enough intelligence. Nagato himself with all the abilities is a different situation. Itachi was able to deal with him, so Sasuke should be able to do so too, but it would probably be quite the task to do so.
Yeah, it is different if nagato manages to make good use of his immobility with summonings and go straight for kills else sasuke can literally turn this into defensive game for Nagato.
Yep, totsuka blade, which can seal everything and yata mirror which can reflect attacks, but i would say mirror's would also depend on the scale of attack done & ability to handle, else it would rebound like tendo pushed back by his own jutsu. Much like uchiha reflection Madara used.
Itachi at peak of his prowess still has very much the limitation of MS blindness + stress. He won't be able to use Tsukoyomi or Amaterasu multiple times whereas sasuke can spam them. His combat sense and experience may give him huge advantage , but EMS sasuke who faced obito with FBS's scale was big for even itachi to attain with just MS. Even if he does, managing it takes another toll.
Totsuka blade does give him advantage for sure, but knowing sasuke and how he survived multiple izanagis, outlasting totsuka attacks is something he can do....but also i do think totsuka needs to pierce target directly, and sasuke can prevent it by using his sussano.
Like i was saying the only thing in itachi's favor is his experience and knowledge which sasuke had lacked at those times. And lmao, EMS maddy is far above sasuke.
Can totsuka cut through FBS? It’s description said it can cut through almost anything, so the limits are unknown I guess. The yata should negate any of Sasukes attack. So, Itachi does have the counter and some advantages, but it’s limited as you said by stress. For me personally, I usually lean towards the person with superior battle sense where the power gap is within reason.
Tht was edo tensei nagato being used by kabuto. Nagato's big disadvantage - immobility . And unlike Naruto, Sasuke doesn't take chances. He has his backup as always. Sacrifice karin, jugo or suigetsu lmao. More than tht, he would not recklessly go in and get caught before trying to figure out his jutsu workings.
Always wondered if nagato fights himself, can he use 6 paths clones ?
LOL, Naruto getting caught by nagato was funny as hell. Realistically, he could have counterattacked the moment chamaleon caught him despite invisible and not let nagato touch him at all + let's not forget the huge advantage of naruto - his clone was already disabled due to him using so many clones. If naruto would not have had made tht many clones, he basically would have stomped tht NAGATO. As for BEE, poor BEE never learned intel and went head on for the fight.
See how they did better against Jinchurikis controlled by Obito.
Ehhh, I still see nagato, just cause he hard counters flame control. Genjutsu is probably Sasukes best course, but Nagato also has camouflaged summoning. Remember in addition to Rinnegan abilties, Jiraiya said Nagato was able master every jutsu he taught him, all nature transformations and yang release. Couple that with his large chakra reserve, he has a huge toolset and the means to spam it.
Yeah, it is different if nagato manages to make good use of his immobility with summonings and go straight for kills else sasuke can literally turn this into defensive game for Nagato.
Also should depend on how weaken we consider Nagato, and how much chakra he can absorb beforehand. Because Edo Nagato post chakra absorption was bordering on OP, especially the Human Path ability.
What do you guys think of Kakashi? My thing about him is that he basically plateaued after he was 12. Besides Obito sharingan boosting him in certain areas, he was stagnant
I think my dislike of Kakashi comes in part from my great dislike of the whole Obito storyline, and because he was one of several characters who went from being cool because he was strong despite his limitations to just being needlessly overpowered.
Kakashi had a bit of a raw deal. He was pretty much a failure as a teacher and a character but that was the role the story gave to him. And then where Kishi took the story in the later stages makes him seem a strange mix of OP, incompetent, and kind of awful.
Which is all a result of poor plot planning and writing more that the character itself. None of it was actually intended, I don't think. Like for example..
His teacher was Naruto's father but in the beginning of the series he clearly ignores Naruto in favor of Sasuke. Even before that is a big victim of "the whole village treating a heroes son like an outcast" thing. None of that makes any sense in the context of Kakashi's character unless he's just an awful person.
He gives a power hungry young Sasuke even more power. He had a student that showed tendency's toward violence, anger, jealousy and feeding the darker sides of his nature. His approch to Sasuke in the early parts of Naruto makes absolutely no sense.
All of his students ultimately had to find another teacher. Sasuke ran off while he wasn't looking. Naruto he pushed off on the closet pervert guy and then ultimately Jiraiya. Sakura he left pretty much useless until Tsunade came along. He is a systematic failure as a teacher and that's because the plot needed him to be that.
None of those things are actually meant to be like that either. They just became that way because a lot of the series wasn't planned out very well. Like with Naruto being presented early in the series as an orphan/victim of prejudice made very little sense in the context the stuff about the his mom and dad. And Kakashi's character is one of the characters that takes that hit the hardest.
I thought in combat he was fine and aesthetically he looked cool. But his character just took such tremendous damage from all the times he was used as a plot device. With the Obito stuff Kishi actually started to try but it was already too late. He's one of those characters like Sakura who just becomes a trainwreck when you think about their actions with any depth.
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Which I think is sort of makes him a microcosm of Naruto's problems as a whole.
Like the core themes and cycles of hatred and all that completely falls apart because it's never really resolved. Sasuke never redeems himself. The world doesn't embrace the power of love. Everyone just forgives all the bad stuff he did and it's never really explained why. Leaving the only explanation to be that he's powerful and Naruto's friend. That's not redemption that's nepotism.
And that was often Naruto's problem, especially toward the end, the story just wasn't very well written as a whole. Individual parts could be great but they'd conflict with another and damage the greater whole. And that's sort of what Kakashi ended up being.
I think my dislike of Kakashi comes in part from my great dislike of the whole Obito storyline, and because he was one of several characters who went from being cool because he was strong despite his limitations to just being needlessly overpowered.
Kakashi had a bit of a raw deal. He was pretty much a failure as a teacher and a character but that was the role the story gave to him. And then where Kishi took the story in the later stages makes him seem a strange mix of OP, incompetent, and kind of awful.
Which is all a result of poor plot planning and writing more that the character itself. None of it was actually intended, I don't think. Like for example..
His teacher was Naruto's father but in the beginning of the series he clearly ignores Naruto in favor of Sasuke. Even before that is a big victim of "the whole village treating a heroes son like an outcast" thing. None of that makes any sense in the context of Kakashi's character unless he's just an awful person.
He gives a power hungry young Sasuke even more power. He had a student that was showed tendency's toward violence, anger, jealousy and feeding the darker sides of his nature. His approch to Sasuke in the early parts of Naruto makes absolutely no sense.
All of his students ultimately had to find another teacher. Sasuke ran off while he wasn't looking. Naruto he pushed off on the closet pervert guy and then ultimately Jiraiya. Sakura he left pretty much useless until Tsunade came along. He is a systematic failure as a teacher and that's because the plot needed him to be that.
None of those things are actually meant to be like that either. They just became that way because a lot of the series wasn't planned out very well. Like with Naruto being presented early in the series as an orphan/victim of prejudice made very little sense in the context the stuff about the his mom and dad. And Kakashi's character is one of the characters that takes that hit the hardest.
I thought in combat he was fine and aesthetically he looked cool. But his character just took such tremendous damage from all the times he was used as a plot device. With the Obito stuff Kishi actually started to try but it was already too late. He's one of those characters like Sakura who just becomes a trainwreck when you think about their actions with any depth.
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Which I think is sort of makes him a microcosm of Naruto's problems as a whole.
Like the core themes and cycles of hatred and all that. Completely falls apart because it's never really resolved. Sasuke never redeems himself. The world doesn't embrace the power of love. Everyone just forgives all the bad stuff he did and it's never really explained why. Leaving the only explanation to be that he's powerful and Naruto's friend. That's not redemption that's nepotism.
And that was often Naruto's problem, especially toward the end, the story just wasn't very well written as a whole. Individual parts could be great but they'd conflict with another and damage the greater whole. And that's sort of what Kakashi ended up being.
Naruto in all three. First match is most interesting. But I doubt Sasuke Susanoo at that point could hold up against several rasengan barrages or rasenshuriken. Frog kemite also closes gap in taijutsu. I guess genjutsu, but Sasuke's never put him in genjutsu.
Third Kazekage
Kaguya. They both just rely on overwhelming power, Kaguya has more
Naruto in all three. First match is most interesting. But I doubt Sasuke Susanoo at that point could hold up against several rasengan barrages or rasenshuriken. Frog kemite also closes gap in taijutsu. I guess genjutsu, but Sasuke's never put him in genjutsu.
Third Kazekage
Kaguya. They both just rely on overwhelming power, Kaguya has more
The thing about Sasuke is that he always had the same flaw. Staying power. Mostly his skill set was that of an assassin, when Kishi wasn't giving him free abilities left and right via the power of hatred naturally. Naruto on the other hand is more of an endurance fighter with multiple cheats that allowed him to stay in the fight even longer than he should be able to. Always felt like Kishi had to really try to hard to not show how OP he made Naruto with the shadowclones.
If Naruto had ever focused on wearing down somebody instead of trying to overpower them he could have rolled like 98% of the opponents pretty early in the series. Simply because there isn't really a counter for sending a thousand clones at somebody 3-4 at a time for hours and hours. Each group being more skilled than the last. It would be a boring way to fight but it would demolish most of the opponents because chakra was a limited resource for almost everybody but him. There are a very small number of opponents who could survive that and Sasuke isn't one of them.
How do you see the first scenarios you listed, i.e naruto v. Sasuke?
Tobirama v Hiruzen: I'm taking Tobirama. Large chakra, flying rajin, shadow clones, best water style user, and tactical genius. Haven't seen much from Hiruzen honestly. He did seal the reanimation in part 1 but those are no where close to the real versions.
Juubito v. Sage Madara: is this Madara without his eyes? Without eyes, it's juubito. If Madara has his eyes, Madara.
Hagoromo stomps Naruto
Jiren's eyes end Narutoverse
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Naruto fandom: Kakashi is awesome, this guy lost so many people in his life and never turned evil.
let's not forget sasuke can use genjutsu and make pain feel illusions tht he has already used the jutsu and buy a moment and kill him before he uses it too while he gets ready to use the jutsu. Sasuke is kinda worse match for nagato or Pain..EMS sasuke i mean.
But other pains can't hold him off because once tendo starts amassing chakra, others go to sleep. Basically, u would need him bound completely in some manner and still, not sure it would work. Btw, we ignoring izanagi and izanami here, right ?
Oorochimaru also sacrificed his summoning during the chunin exams forest round, but not to save himself. Well, yeah, those things can work as diversion for a bit, but not able to capture them. And i think ur idea is getting each pain sleep slowly one by one. Tht may work or not depending on situations. The only way possible to get sasuke to hurt is to completely bind him up without him being able to use chakra.
