Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2020] - Discussion and ToC Talk

[Shinuki no Reborn]

MANGAHELPERS "TOC" POLL ISSUE #51 - VOTING!​

The poll for issue #51 is now open, vote for your favorite chapters of the week clicking HERE!

Alongside the release of Sakamoto Days, the extra series this week are:

-Dragon Ball Super 66
-Boruto: Naruto Next Generations 52
-Ghost Reaper Girl 10

Good Votes!

 

[Halloween]

Moderator Notice:
Henceforth, I will be deleting posts that complain about Weekly Shonen Jump having too many/not enough gag/battle/exorcism/sports/etc series.

These posts are not insightful, and do not meaningfully contribute to this thread. Also, this decision is not up for discussion, so posts discussing this decision will also be deleted.~ Halloween

 

[Ryuusei]

Spoiler: 52 TOC & 01 Preview

呪 僕 O マ ブ S C D 破 C B 夜 C 僕 あ 灼 ぼ チ 高 ア 森 A 仄 ぼ 次号カラー ヒロアカ アンデラ 夜桜 約ネバ 道産子 GIGA 岸本先生が描くコラボポスター 爆豪クリアファイル

Spoiler: Issue #52 ToC & Preview

Jujutsu Kaisen (Cover & LCP)
My Hero Academia
One Piece
Mashle
Black Clover
Sakamoto Days (CP)
Dr. Stone
Magu-chan: God of Destruction (CP)
Build King
Mission: Yozakura Family
Me & Roboco
Ayakashi Triangle (CP)
Shakunetsu no Niraikanai
We Never Learn
Chainsaw Man
Koukousei Kazoku
Undead Unluck
Moriking
Agravity Boys
Honomieru Shounen
Bokura no Ketsumei

Issue #1
Cover & LCP: My Hero Academia
CP: Undead Unluck, Mission: Yozakura Family, The Promised Neverland, Dosanko Gyaru wa Namaramenkoi

GIGA Preview
Collab poster by Kishimoto
Bakugou clear file

 

[Drake98]

The three fanbases worst at taking criticism are HxH, JoJo and OP from what I've seen.

Of course, the three are some of the best manga ever written. Each people haver their own opinions and they can either like or hate any of this series, however, you also have to be able to critic this series objectively.
Naruto is my favourite shounen, and I like Bleach way more than some of those but I also know that OP, HXH and Jojo's are better series objectively.
That's why the fandom of those series are considered bad at taking criticism. They know that their series are better than the majority out there, including stuff like Naruto, Bleach, Kimetsu, etc. Not perfect by any means, but better.

 

[Koni]

Of course, the three are some of the best manga ever written. Each people haver their own opinions and they can either like or hate any of this series, however, you also have to be able to critic this series objectively.
Naruto is my favourite shounen, and I like Bleach way more than some of those but I also know that OP, HXH and Jojo's are better series objectively.
That's why the fandom of those series are considered bad at taking criticism. They know that their series are better than the majority out there, including stuff like Naruto, Bleach, Kimetsu, etc. Not perfect by any means, but better.

My issue with this statement is, well, that I personally think that's kind of completely false.

No one series is objectively better than the other. It may be generally agreed upon that series such as One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, and Jojo are better than other shonen, but in no way does that imply any sort of objectivity. I know it's kind of frowned upon to use anecdotal evidence here, but bear with me: I know friends who dislike Hunter x Hunter and Attack on Titan because of various issues they have with some of the elements of and/or the direction that those series go in. Part of that ultimately stems from personal tastes as to what elements would make a shonen manga good for them.
Also, in my personal opinion, One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, and JoJo are shonen that have ran for an extraordinarily long time and have a lot of content. All three of those series are great, but being current with the manga is a massive sunk cost. So it's likely that you're either reading till the end, or you're a diehard fan of the series. (Hell, I need to catch up with all three of them.)

 

[Drake98]

My issue with this statement is, well, that I personally think that's kind of completely false.

No one series is objectively better than the other. It may be generally agreed upon that series such as One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, and Jojo are better than other shonen, but in no way does that imply any sort of objectivity. I know it's kind of frowned upon to use anecdotal evidence here, but bear with me: I know friends who dislike Hunter x Hunter and Attack on Titan because of various issues they have with some of the elements of and/or the direction that those series go in. Part of that ultimately stems from personal tastes as to what elements would make a shonen manga good for them.
Also, in my personal opinion, One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, and JoJo are shonen that have ran for an extraordinarily long time and have a lot of content. All three of those series are great, but being current with the manga is a massive sunk cost. So it's likely that you're either reading till the end, or you're a diehard fan of the series. (Hell, I need to catch up with all three of them.)

I see your point, but the example you used kinda is exactly what I'm saying. Simply, objective criticism is construtive feedback based on unbiased thoughts and facts rather than emotion and personal preference. Subjective criticism relies heavily on opinion.
The example you used about your friends is subjective, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just their personal opinion, but you can't tell me that Bleach is a better written manga than Hunter x Hunter, because it's not. You may like Bleach more, you may find him a better shonen, but objectively criticizing, HxH is a better story with better narrative and arcs constrution, that's the difference. "No one series is objectively better than the other." I think you are right to some extent. Objectively criticizing OP, HxH and JoJo against each other is more difficult because the better the series, the harder to find flaws and to rank them. Also, when the series genre is much different like a battle shounen and a sports shounen, it becames difficult to compare them.
However, when the difference in quality in the narrative and the story is so big and so clear, It becomes easy to objectively look at them and say each one is better, especially if the type of story is similar, like a battle shounen. That's just how I view things tough, I'm not stating anything.

 

[Dellinger]

Ehh Oda certainly doesn't really get the respect he deserves from western fandom and especially from guys who started taking OP more seriouslt after Naruto and Bleach ended. There are 2 simple instances of Oda showing he is head and shoulders above his gen of mangaka, first with MF both writing and artistic wise (dude produced like 20 chapters consisting of multiple double pages, unheard of in a weekly series) and now with the Oden flashback, Oda tied up multiple plot points, years of backstory and content hence why it started over 40 years ago. Oda went through a story of 40 years in 13 chapters and he'd probably focused on it a lot more if he wasn't in a rush to finish.

Oda deserves respect for doing this for 23 years at such a high level week in and week out. Nobody else has done it which pisses off most fanboys of other series.

 

[Teennitro]

Ehh Oda certainly doesn't really get the respect he deserves from western fandom

You can blame 4Kids for that

 

[101nemesis]

Oda deserves respect for doing this for 23 years at such a high level week in and week out. Nobody else has done it which pisses off most fanboys of other series.

Akimoto did it far longer than Oda has (ie. 40 years) and without any breaks.
That said, Oda is well respected. His work ethics and dedication to his craft is well known and respected among manga readers.

 

[perroloco]

So, a question that's been bugging me for a while; why is it it that One Piece is somehow "exempt" from the critique that Naruto and Bleach get?

Like, this is an honest question.

Spoiler

The simple answer is that It's just leagues better structured than the other two manga you mentioned.

I'd argue that overall Naruto and BLEACH had stronger beginnings, One Piece only gets "good" around after chapter 80ish (Arlong arc), but One Piece is just more consistent. And weirdly enough One Piece was super popular in the TOCs since its very first chapter (it basically was #1 since the very first chapter, I'm not exaggerating you can look it up). I do find that kind of weird as I feel the first arcs of One Piece are kinda slow and just ok.

Also you can notice a very sharp decline in both Naruto and BLEACH... And One Piece never really got a super sharp decline.. I mean sure it has some not-so good arcs (And a couple of just weird arcs.. Like the Davy Back Fight arc which was totally unnecessary, pretty much filler lol).

Also as @OniluapL said it's probably because it just has less flaws overall than other shonen, it's not perfect of course, but it does what it wants to do better than most, you really get a sense of "adventure" and "exploration" when reading/watching One Piece. I don't really think One Piece fights are the best ever, I enjoy the world building, mysteries and gags more than 95% of the battles.

I think a lot of people do critique One Piece, 15 or so years ago Naruto/BLEACH fans always complained about how childish it looked.. (I dont really browse many forums nowadays, but I imagine that's, along with its length, is it main critique nowadayas too). And sure I can agree it does look goofy, childish, even weird sometimes. There are other critiques about the story like no romance, no deaths and stuff like that.

All of this is my opinion, except One Piece dominating the TOC since its very first chapter, that's fact.

To finish this I'd like to point out another thing One Piece has done that both Naruto and BLEACH (And virtually every other shonen I have read) failed to do is that the different "groups" within the world of One Piece feel more genuine.

Spoilers for Alabasta in One Piece:

So Alabasta is the first mayor arc of OP, it lasts from around volume 18 to 23ish, and you have 5factions basically: Baroque Works, The World Government (Marines), The StrawHat Pirates, The rebel army and the Alabasta Kingdom army... Just with that alone its more complicated than the pretty two dimensional groups in most other shonen (BLEACH for example sure Soul Society was great.. but every other arc the bad guys were bad because.. They were bad basically).

In Alabasta you have Kohza who was the princess of Alabasta's best friend back when they were kids, the whole Baroque Works conspiracy which saw a pirate that was supposed to be allied to the world government taking over an entire nation, Vivi the princess of Alabasta infiltrating Baroque Works to gain intel, Nico Robin who betrays Crocodile the leader of Baroque Works, and... sure the strawhats are and will always be the good guys, but every other faction is more complex than any other shonen I have read. Every character had its own motivation! And the most interesting thing is that for example we learn more about Robin's motivations a couple of arcs later.

Some other examples of how intricate the factions in One Piece are
(Minor Spoilers for the rest of the manga):
Kuma of the revolutionaries, which oppose the world government, was called Kuma the tyrant, why was that? Was he, who opposes the bad guys bad himself in the past?
Arlong is a Fishman who did some horrible stuff, he thinks Fishman are superior to humans.. You feel he is a racist PoS, only to learn 500 or so chapters later just how cruel humans are to Fishman actually slaving them and stuff. (Keep in mind you don't actually learn Arlong's motivations in the arc he appears, only 500 or so chapters later, retroactively making the Arlong arc better and building its character "So I kinda understand why he was like that... He's still a PoS")


Meanwhile Naruto had... a war between puppet zombies and humans lol And BLEACH had a war between characters that really only went to war because they had to..
And I don't want to start a OP vs Naruto vs BLEACH war or anything, but even fans of those manga accepted the downward spiral of an ending both series had. it's like a consensus even among fans.

 

[yadayada]

Ah yes the "objectively better" discussion, I'm sure this discussion is going to go very well

I'm a fan of all 3 series (HxH, pre-TS OP and certain jojo parts are fantastic series, imo) and from my experience those fanbases taking criticism poorly has nothing to do with their series being "objectively" better and it has more to do with HxH being the go-to series for shonen readers who need to act like they are actually mature and on a higher moral field (which is how the meme that "HxH should be considered seinen" came to be) and OP being on top for so long in terms of popularity

That doesn't mean they are perfect and to pretend like the fanbase is right when 90% of it would mock you for expressing even the slightest negative remark on it is laughable. You should be able to love a series and still be able to point at what it does poorly.

Not sure what to say about Jojo since I don't think the fanbase is THAT bad at taking criticism but maybe I just haven't seen enough of it

 

[Reading Somethin']

My issue with this statement is, well, that I personally think that's kind of completely false.

No one series is objectively better than the other. It may be generally agreed upon that series such as One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, and Jojo are better than other shonen, but in no way does that imply any sort of objectivity. I know it's kind of frowned upon to use anecdotal evidence here, but bear with me: I know friends who dislike Hunter x Hunter and Attack on Titan because of various issues they have with some of the elements of and/or the direction that those series go in. Part of that ultimately stems from personal tastes as to what elements would make a shonen manga good for them.
Also, in my personal opinion, One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, and JoJo are shonen that have ran for an extraordinarily long time and have a lot of content. All three of those series are great, but being current with the manga is a massive sunk cost. So it's likely that you're either reading till the end, or you're a diehard fan of the series. (Hell, I need to catch up with all three of them.)

I can see where you are coming from, and I can agree somewhat. There are possible valid criticisms like pacing, contrived/convenient storytelling, and repetitivness, etc.

I, as well as many others might not see some opinions as valid. There are many valid ways to tell a story. I feel that when you critique media, you should take into account what the piece of media is trying to do. I don't think things like artstyle, trope subversion, length of story should be considered valid criticism. They can be disliked, but it's not something you can hold against a series.

I don't think a series can be objectively better than another, but a series can objectively or universally be considered to have more faults than another.

 

[Dellinger]

Akimoto did it far longer than Oda has (ie. 40 years) and without any breaks.
That said, Oda is well respected. His work ethics and dedication to his craft is well known and respected among manga readers.

We can't really compare these 2. Oda is telling a much bigger story in the grand scheme of things with tons of more content and characters. Not to mention from an art stand point, well Kochikame consists of easy to draw panels with not really that much amount of detail Oda draws. Of course it was a great run but not close to Oda in terms of effort. What Kochikame did is amazing but Oda is telling an epoch here, a grand story that at some point, everything that has happened all these years will lead to an epic climax.

 

[Neala897]

We can't really compare these 2. Oda is telling a much bigger story in the grand scheme of things with tons of more content and characters. Not to mention from an art stand point, well Kochikame consists of easy to draw panels with not really that much amount of detail Oda draws. Of course it was a great run but not close to Oda in terms of effort.

I just like how you dismiss 40 years of work like this. And after that people ask why OP fandom is disliked

 

[Halloween]

Debating which fanbase is able to take criticism better or worse than other fanbases is wildly off-topic, and not only that, it's potentially incendiary.

It's not a line of discussion that belongs in this thread, and as such, will be deleted after this warning. Let's course correct, everyone.

 

[Mankichi Togawa]

New Dragon Ball Super and Boruto chapters are out

 

[seron]

Spoiler

Here is the German Version

Spoiler

 

[Chuck_Atlas]

Spoiler

Here is the German Version

Spoiler

Bruh, they just making the Viz logo look bad lol

 

[101nemesis]

Spoiler

Here is the German Version

Spoiler

The second is sorta meh because of larger text sizes and the wonky placement for the mangaka's name. But its a still better design choice IMO than the Viz version BY FAR.

 

[Blink22]

Since FFVII is back in mainstream spotlight, am I the only one hoping we eventually get a Final Fantasy-esque manga in Jump? If properly written, I think a series could be a huge hit. I think the closest we had was Demons Plan and D.Gray-man although DGM didn’t start going into more FF territory until long after it was gone from Jump.

Always been a sucker for fashionable character designs and tragic romantic plots.

 

[savethecat]

Since FFVII is back in mainstream spotlight, am I the only one hoping we eventually get a Final Fantasy-esque manga in Jump? If properly written, I think a series could be a huge hit. I think the closest we had was Demons Plan and D.Gray-man although DGM didn’t start going into more FF territory until long after it was gone from Jump.

Always been a sucker for fashionable character designs and tragic romantic plots.

I think a Fantasy anthology, similar to JoJo could be cool

 

[NeeNeen]

My posts are disappearing again...

Could you at least tell me the reason why you're deleting them? I can't learn if I don't know what I did wrong.

 

[Franz]

Could you at least tell me the reason why you're deleting them? I can't learn if I don't know what I did wrong.

If you refer to the post on Boruto, I think it is off topic.



As already mentioned, if you want to talk about it, there is a topic on the subject.