Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2020] - Discussion and ToC Talk

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Shinuki no Reborn

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MANGAHELPERS "TOC" POLL ISSUE #51 - VOTING!​

The poll for issue #51 is now open, vote for your favorite chapters of the week clicking HERE!

Alongside the release of Sakamoto Days, the extra series this week are:

-Dragon Ball Super 66
-Boruto: Naruto Next Generations 52
-Ghost Reaper Girl 10


Good Votes!
 
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Halloween

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Moderator Notice:
Henceforth, I will be deleting posts that complain about Weekly Shonen Jump having too many/not enough gag/battle/exorcism/sports/etc series.

These posts are not insightful, and do not meaningfully contribute to this thread. Also, this decision is not up for discussion, so posts discussing this decision will also be deleted.~ Halloween
 
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Ryuusei

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呪 僕 O マ ブ S C D 破 C B 夜 C 僕 あ 灼 ぼ チ 高 ア 森 A 仄 ぼ 次号カラー ヒロアカ アンデラ 夜桜 約ネバ 道産子 GIGA 岸本先生が描くコラボポスター 爆豪クリアファイル
Jujutsu Kaisen (Cover & LCP)
My Hero Academia
One Piece
Mashle
Black Clover
Sakamoto Days (CP)
Dr. Stone
Magu-chan: God of Destruction (CP)
Build King
Mission: Yozakura Family
Me & Roboco
Ayakashi Triangle (CP)
Shakunetsu no Niraikanai
We Never Learn
Chainsaw Man
Koukousei Kazoku
Undead Unluck
Moriking
Agravity Boys
Honomieru Shounen
Bokura no Ketsumei

Issue #1
Cover & LCP: My Hero Academia
CP: Undead Unluck, Mission: Yozakura Family, The Promised Neverland, Dosanko Gyaru wa Namaramenkoi

GIGA Preview
Collab poster by Kishimoto
Bakugou clear file
 
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101nemesis

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financially, the editors of jump have more reason to cancel Mitama than Agravity boys or any other manga they put in by example.
If this interview were 100% correct, Act age, kimetsu and sket dance would never have been successful in jumping.
I mean, Kimetsu always placed well in surveys from debut. This was mentioned in one of the interviews. I dunno about Act Age or Sket Dance. World Trigger, which everyone thought initially did badly was also revealed that have done well in surveys.
 

tirakai

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Kimetsu we know from editor comments that it was never at risk of being cancelled.

Act-age did at least have its first chapter rank out of the bottom 5, which often seems to correlate with a series getting to live for an extra batch compared to manga that go instant bottom 5 on ch 1, and that little bit of extra time seemed to be what it needed to find a fanbase. It's a unique case at any rate, I remember someone looked up info and it's the only series that hit dead last early on that became a success?

I don't think Ghost Writer will end up in the U19 club even if it is instant-bottom though, since it probably fits that niche of being a unique series that they want to keep around more (unless it's really intensely hated, then it'd probably leave quick).
 

BX-02BLODIA

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Let's not forget that they gave Kimetsu (and Yuuna for that matter) a CP in it's 7th chapter.
 

Shinuki no Reborn

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I don't know why a few people here seem to think Mitama some sort of total failure, it's probably had the best overall ToC placements of any newer series except Mashle. Heck it's even in the top 5 ranked series this issue. Sales might not be great but if it's still around and still getting good placement then chances are it's doing okay on the reader surveys.

If someone can prove all that info from an EiC is outdated irrelevant go ahead. But unless you've got a newer source that says something different, I'm going to trust the word of a former editor in chief over random people on a forum guessing.

Zipman ended at ch 17, and quite a few series the past decade ended even earlier than that, Buddy Strike in 2015 only got 1 volume. They definitely still judge new manga very early.
This is just you playing naive as if you can't see how much obviously different is the Shonen Jump of Nakano (and current industry state) compared to other years specially the Jump from the 80's and 90's, ofc we will still have series like Zipman that end fast, this happens with every magazine when a manga is a blatant flop (Buddy Strike was from 5 years ago), but i don't know how much obvious things can be when we have the the Taisei, TSS and BC trio surviving for 27 chapters selling like shit, Kamio Yui going for 36 chapters with 5k, Mitama surviving even more with 5k, Yozakura, Undead and Agravity being considered as decent to good receptions with 10k/15k, things that would really not happen some years ago.

You don't need to be spoon feed by Shonen Jump itself to be able to realise that things are not the same anymore.

Edit: Not really saying what the EiC said is 100% outdated becase clearly isn't, but it's something from someone who woked as EiC like 20 years ago, isn't really good to use as a total representation of the current Jump.
 
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yadayada

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financially, the editors of jump have more reason to cancel Mitama than Agravity boys or any other manga they put in by example.
If this interview were 100% correct, Act age, kimetsu and sket dance would never have been successful in jumping.
Kimetsu was not a low ranker. It ranked top 3 twice within its first 10 rankings, got CPs in chapter 7 and 16, and only ranked bottom 5 twice in its first 20 rankings. Its lowest ranking over 205 chapters was a bottom 3 and it only happened once, and not even in its first chapters (chapter 38/31st ranking). Sket dance just fit the role of gag manga that jump likes to place at the bottom, while act-age is...indeed a weird case. The exception that proves the rule, if you will.

Jump isn't running a charity. If a series can't prove its popularity in either the magazine or the volume sales it will get canned 99% of the time.
 

hhht3x

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In Time Paradox, we haven't even gotten to the serialization of his plagiarized series. We've already discussed that jump has faith in this series (It went through many hands to get serialized, and also debuted in the issue Kimetsu ended). In our own polls its been doing extraordinarily good (so, at the very least, it has overall good reception here). IDK how you can say the first chapter was bad.

There have been many questions set up over the course of these 3 chapters (what makes for a good series, why write a series at all, what type of person does it take to engage with readers). All we can do is put faith in the author to deliver. (I'm not gonna judge it till a volumes worth of chapters is out. Everyone hated Undeads first couple chapters. Can't remember the criticisms exactly but something along the lines of 'unfocused' and 'meaningless action'. Then after like chapter 6 it was all of a sudden a coherent read-through. It became understood how the first chapters were establishing the MC powers and story structure).

And how come Time paradox is scrutinized and will 'be cancelled because of its first 3 chapters' when Agravity is siting dead last since it started placing and people still talk about 'well we still need more data to decide if it will be cancelled'.. Yo, Agravity is only around because its unique. It wont make it past next serialization round.
 
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tirakai

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This is just you playing naive as if you can't see how much obviously different is the Shonen Jump of Nakano (and current industry state) compared to other years specially the Jump from the 80's and 90's, ofc we will still have series like Zipman that end fast, this happens with every magazine when a manga is a blatant flop (Buddy Strike was from 5 years ago), but i don't know how much obvious things can be when we have the the Taisei, TSS and BC trio surviving for 27 chapters selling like shit, Kamio Yui going for 36 chapters with 5k, Mitama surviving even more with 5k, Yozakura, Undead and Agravity being considered as decent to good receptions with 10k/15k, things that would really not happen some years ago.

You don't need to be spoon feed by Shonen Jump itself to be able to realise that things are not the same anymore.

Edit: Not really saying what the EiC said is 100% outdated becase clearly isn't, but it's something from someone who woked as EiC like 20 years ago, isn't really good to use as a total representation of the current Jump.
Who's talking about sales? The former editor in chief is entirely talking about reader surveys there. Mitama is probably doing fairly well on reader surveys judging by it's ToC position (since sales certainly aren't putting it at #5), and I remember Yui Kamio often doing passably too hanging around the edge of the bottom 5 a lot rather than right at the bottom. Agravity Boys certainly is not considered to have decent to good reception since it's dead last, and has been bottom 3 most of the time.

Reader survey results seem to be more important than sales, otherwise Samurai 8 would still be going. Sure the ToC isn't a direct representation of the results and takes other things into account (like PUSH), but it's the only judge we have.
 

yadayada

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By the way, even if the majority did end up hating TPGW, it doesn't necessarily spell its doom. Even in these conditions a series could manage to survive as long as it can carve out a niche that consistently votes for it.

I personally find the series intriguing. I want to see where the author takes it before actually giving my judgement on it.
 

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Who's talking about sales? The former editor in chief is entirely talking about reader surveys there. Mitama is probably doing fairly well on reader surveys judging by it's ToC position (since sales certainly aren't putting it at #5), and I remember Yui Kamio often doing passably too hanging around the edge of the bottom 5 a lot rather than right at the bottom. Agravity Boys certainly is not considered to have decent to good reception since it's dead last, and has been bottom 3 most of the time.

Reader survey results seem to be more important than sales, otherwise Samurai 8 would still be going. Sure the ToC isn't a direct representation of the results and takes other things into account (like PUSH), but it's the only judge we have.
It is clear that sales are as important as Toc, after all it is money that also goes into the pocket of the jump.

everyone wants friend money, the more the better.
 

Shinuki no Reborn

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Who's talking about sales? The former editor in chief is entirely talking about reader surveys there. Mitama is probably doing fairly well on reader surveys judging by it's ToC position (since sales certainly aren't putting it at #5), and I remember Yui Kamio often doing passably too hanging around the edge of the bottom 5 a lot rather than right at the bottom. Agravity Boys certainly is not considered to have decent to good reception since it's dead last, and has been bottom 3 most of the time.

Reader survey results seem to be more important than sales, otherwise Samurai 8 would still be going. Sure the ToC isn't a direct representation of the results and takes other things into account (like PUSH), but it's the only judge we have.
You're not making any sense, sales have everything to do with a series surviving and is totally correlated to how a series is placed in the "ToC" since this is just placements decided by a group of factors including volume sales, i still don't know why you treat the "surveys" thing as if is a entity by itself when everybody knows that these placements aren't even a 1:1 of the "survey results", you also have this tendency of treating the ToC as a ruler when it comes to overal reception, when is just a little bubble inside Jump, there's a entire population that doesn't buy Jump or don't care about surveys and buy manga in volumes, this is the real "reception", not some people filling a survey, Agravity Boys for example had a great reception and great reviews for volume 1, getting a reprint and mention in radio shows but you just try to focus in "ToC placements" as if that is the ultimate japanese reception for mangas.

About Samurai 8, you know very well that the sales were never considered good and also the overall reception and reviews for the volumes were not good.
 

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found this interesting nothing super important but might as well
 

tirakai

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Agravity might have decent sales and good reviews, but it's still dead last in the magazine which shows Jump doesn't consider it to be well-received or worth pushing.

You're acting like volume sales are the only thing that matter. Sure they're a part of it, but they're clearly not the #1 factor since Mitama's still going and being placed well (showing jump considers it well-received enough to do that and worth promoting), while Agravity Boys is in dead last which is usually only taken by former hits long past their peak or new series that are about to get cancelled.

Sales do not matter nearly as much as you think they do. RxL got cancelled, Samurai 8 got cancelled despite still selling better than every newer series, sometimes we get new series get cancelled in favour of lower selling manga that Jump puts higher on the ToC (like Amalgam with Spring Weapon).

Plus we have a former EiC saying they cancel series based on reader survey results. From everything we've seen and heard, survey results are the #1 factor that WSJ judges popularity on. Sales are secondary.
 

AbrahamOmosun

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Reader survey results seem to be more important than sales, otherwise Samurai 8 would still be going.
While samurai 8 sales were not bad, it was way below what was expected for a series made by someone as famous as kishimoto + the added advertising push it got before hand. Correct me if I am wrong it had with declining sales from volume to volume with Vol 4 selling 14000+ in 5 days. Contrast that with Kimetsu Vol 4 which sold 20000+ in 3 days
 

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Agravity might have decent sales and good reviews, but it's still dead last in the magazine which shows Jump doesn't consider it to be well-received or worth pushing.

You're acting like volume sales are the only thing that matter. Sure they're a part of it, but they're clearly not the #1 factor since Mitama's still going and being placed well (showing jump considers it well-received enough to do that and worth promoting), while Agravity Boys is in dead last which is usually only taken by former hits long past their peak or new series that are about to get cancelled.

Sales do not matter nearly as much as you think they do. RxL got cancelled, Samurai 8 got cancelled despite still selling better than every newer series, sometimes we get new series get cancelled in favour of lower selling manga that Jump puts higher on the ToC (like Amalgam with Spring Weapon).

Plus we have a former EiC saying they cancel series based on reader survey results. From everything we've seen and heard, survey results are the #1 factor that WSJ judges popularity on. Sales are secondary.
Sales are also important, jump is not a charity. you can put all the examples you want more if sales were not important so it is not worth buying volumes.
 

tirakai

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Samurai 8's sales were far below expectations, but up to the last volume it was still selling better than any newer series is (though we still need to see Mashle I think?). If sales were the most important and real judge of popularity, Mitama would've been cancelled instead.

We've already seen they're willing to keep around lower selling series with little to no growth as long runners if they're different and (presumably) popular with the magazine readers, like Hinomaru Zumou and Isobee. On the other hand we've seen decent selling series get cancelled because people who buy and vote the magazine don't seem to like them much.
 

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Agravity might have decent sales and good reviews, but it's still dead last in the magazine which shows Jump doesn't consider it to be well-received or worth pushing.

You're acting like volume sales are the only thing that matter. Sure they're a part of it, but they're clearly not the #1 factor since Mitama's still going and being placed well (showing jump considers it well-received enough to do that and worth promoting), while Agravity Boys is in dead last which is usually only taken by former hits long past their peak or new series that are about to get cancelled.

Sales do not matter nearly as much as you think they do. RxL got cancelled, Samurai 8 got cancelled despite still selling better than every newer series, sometimes we get new series get cancelled in favour of lower selling manga that Jump puts higher on the ToC (like Amalgam with Spring Weapon).

Plus we have a former EiC saying they cancel series based on reader survey results. From everything we've seen and heard, survey results are the #1 factor that WSJ judges popularity on. Sales are secondary.
RxL sales where declining with each volume, as a company, keeping a product that cant grow isnt worth it, the same was with S8, the costs of publicity, a probably expensive Kishimoto contract and being a not growing series caused that. It isnt about "this series sold more than this ones and still got axed" but about how profitable the series can be in the future, which in both cases, it showed being series with no growth future.

I believe that surveys are part as a measure, because editors has said in interviews, but there are more things to get into consideration than that and sales too. Jump keep series because of other reasons, could be because its oriented to a certain public (Spring Weapon was a series obviously oriented towards the more younger audience of the magazine and I think Mitama its the same with and the new Moriking too), could be because of hope of a more larger growth in the future (Samon and Dance Midgets were really promotioned in its time but they couldnt show signs of more sales growth meanwhile Kimetsu and AA while beginning low in sales, they started to gain more popularity with the constant promotions they had in the beginning).

Everything is take into account and its not "this IS the reason why it failed or succed"
 

Koni

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Agravity might have decent sales and good reviews, but it's still dead last in the magazine which shows Jump doesn't consider it to be well-received or worth pushing.

You're acting like volume sales are the only thing that matter. Sure they're a part of it, but they're clearly not the #1 factor since Mitama's still going and being placed well (showing jump considers it well-received enough to do that and worth promoting), while Agravity Boys is in dead last which is usually only taken by former hits long past their peak or new series that are about to get cancelled.

Sales do not matter nearly as much as you think they do. RxL got cancelled, Samurai 8 got cancelled despite still selling better than every newer series, sometimes we get new series get cancelled in favour of lower selling manga that Jump puts higher on the ToC (like Amalgam with Spring Weapon).

Plus we have a former EiC saying they cancel series based on reader survey results. From everything we've seen and heard, survey results are the #1 factor that WSJ judges popularity on. Sales are secondary.
May I see the article where the EiC says that they cancel series based on reader survey results? I'd like to read that.

Personally, I think sales are what matters most, and the ToC is generally a reflection of that. That's not to say that one or the other doesn't matter, though.
Jump's in a weird position where 9 of their series are all newbies, and three of the veterans are very likely to end within the next year. Plus their biggest cash cow in a decade (at least) just ended. So, not only could they could really use a hit or two right about now, but it's easier for newbies to survive, as long as their sales are steady. Just do better than the others, even if you don't sell much. Miitama and Yozakura are doing just enough to survive IMO, especially since Guardian came out.

RxL's sales were high at first but then steadily declined over time and never recovered. Samurai 8 sold WAY below expectations, and it never really improved as well. I'm not sure what S8's TOC placements were, but as we all remember, Shueisha sure as hell promoted the fuck out of it when it's first volume came out. Flyers were everywhere. (If S8 didn't place relatively high early, then why would Shueisha overpromote it like that when the first two volumes were coming out?)

I do think that the ToC also serves as a good early indicator of what may or may not stick around though. Guardian of the Witch and Zipman flopping harder than a fish on land once their volumes came out can attest to this.
 

tirakai

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May I see the article where the EiC says that they cancel series based on reader survey results? I'd like to read that.
It's the one I posted earlier, from an interview with the former EiC but still seems pretty relevant even if some things are different now, since we still see some new flops starting building to the ending around ch 10.


Horie said that even if the work in question is by a major creator, if its popularity starts to fall, the magazine may decide to discontinue the series based on reader survey results. He said that editors can determine whether or not a work will become popular by about three weeks after it debuts. The magazine aims to operate closely in line with readers' desires and tastes. Therefore, it places a lot of weight on the results of reader surveys, and readers can determine whether or or not manga will continue.

Horie added, "Surveys have more objectivity than anything." He explained that editors can tell creators that their works are not interesting, so they will be cancelled. However, the situation is sometimes difficult for creators to comprehend unless they see the results of the regular reader surveys.

Horie admitted that the decision to cancel some series can be made too early. He said, "There are also cases where manga go up in popularity little by little," and that fact is sometimes overlooked. Horie said that the standard for cancellation is 10 weeks, but some series start to gain popularity by the seventh or eighth week. Horie believes Shonen Jump's practice of deciding to end manga early is a disadvantage to works that develop slowly. He cited Kōji Koseki's Kenritsu Umisora Kōkō Yakyū Buin Yamashita Tarō-kun and Haruto Umezawa's Hareluya as examples.
 

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found this interesting nothing super important but might as well
Look at Act-Age wiping the floor with many other series. I think I really should read it.
 

Shinuki no Reborn

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Agravity might have decent sales and good reviews, but it's still dead last in the magazine which shows Jump doesn't consider it to be well-received or worth pushing.

You're acting like volume sales are the only thing that matter. Sure they're a part of it, but they're clearly not the #1 factor since Mitama's still going and being placed well (showing jump considers it well-received enough to do that and worth promoting), while Agravity Boys is in dead last which is usually only taken by former hits long past their peak or new series that are about to get cancelled.

Sales do not matter nearly as much as you think they do. RxL got cancelled, Samurai 8 got cancelled despite still selling better than every newer series, sometimes we get new series get cancelled in favour of lower selling manga that Jump puts higher on the ToC (like Amalgam with Spring Weapon).

Plus we have a former EiC saying they cancel series based on reader survey results. From everything we've seen and heard, survey results are the #1 factor that WSJ judges popularity on. Sales are secondary.
lol You're just straight up being contradictory, if Agravity Boys have decent sales, good reviews aka reception, gets a reprint by Shonen Jump itself, how Shonen Jump don't consider it to be well received or worth pushing when they already did?

You know very well that i'm not acting like volume sales are the only thing that matters since i literally pointed out Samurai 8 not having a "good reception" and mentioned other flop series that were canceled because the overall bad positions and sales.

You still use Samurai 8 as a example as if you're pretending to not understand that the entire reception of the manga wasn't really good or at the level Shonen Jump wanted, simple as that, it wasn't because "ToC", it was because the whole situation, the same applies to Robot x Laserbeam that was declining more and more each volume (and getting bad too).

You say that i'm talking about sales being the only thing it matter but is basically you saying that the reason everything survives or not is solely because "toc placements" when is a group of factors.
 
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