One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Ramen]

I think Beckmann, Yassop and Lucky are all at or near that level. I think Mihawk is as well. Someone like Sabo isn't far off either.

Of Admiral? Yea I agree. He's crew is so small compared that he needs to have more monsters in order to compete.

Sabo? Meh, I see him as a YC. He couldn't scratch Fujitora and I think guys like Marco and King could beat him. More of an equal to Katakuri.

 

[Nie Li]

I find the debate about WSS a bit pointless. Big Mom uses a sword. She's stronger than Mihawk. She isn't the "WSS". It's a skill title. I think the Yonko have greater strength overall, like Shanks likely has top of the line Haki, and when combined, he is stronger overall.

But Big Mom has a very strong DF. She's not as strong as she is only through her swordsmanship.
However, if Shanks truly has no DF, then all his strength as a fighter is because of his swordsmanship, which means that if he's stronger than Mihawk, then he is a better swordsman, which means Zoro should defeat him and not Mihawk to uphold his promise to Kuina. Using haki doesn't change this, and Mihawk's haki may be even better than Shanks' for all we know since Mihawk's blade has turned permanently black while Shanks' hasn't.

The title of Yonkou is a different matter. Shanks has a strong crew and Mihawk most likely can't take on his whole crew and on Shanks at the same time. But WSS is decided by individual strength and not by crew strength.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

The Kuja shot haki arrows.

True. Then that doesn't hype Beckmann as much as I thought.

 

[Ramen]

But Big Mom has a very strong DF. She's not as strong as she is only through her swordsmanship.
However, if Shanks truly has no DF, then all his strength as a fighter is because of his swordsmanship, which means that if he's stronger than Mihawk, then he is a better swordsman, which means Zoro should defeat him and not Mihawk to uphold his promise to Kuina. Using haki doesn't change this, and Mihawk's haki may be even better than Shank's for all we know since Mihawk's blade has turned permanently black while Shank's hasn't.

The title of Yonkou is a different matter. Shanks has a strong crew and Mihawk most likely can't take on his whole crew and on Shanks at the same time. But WSS is decided by individual strength and not by crew strength.

Haki plays a factor to. No fight is actually only swords.

And Big Moms DF isn't suited for battles.

 

[Nie Li]

Haki plays a factor to. No fight is actually only swords.

And Big Moms DF isn't suited for battles.

Haki plays a factor but it's still fighting as swordsmen or through DF's abilities.

If a swordsman uses haki to strengthen his sword then that's just one more skill with the blade.

Big Mom can snatch someone's soul away. That's very suited for battles.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

And convert her surrounding into living warriors like Zeus or Apollo. How is that not suited for battles?

 

[Ramen]

Haki plays a factor but it's still fighting as swordsmen or through DF's abilities.

If a swordsman uses haki to strengthen his sword then that's just one more skill witht he blade.

Big Mom can snatch someone's soul away. That's very suited for battles.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

And convert her surrounding into living warriors like Zeus or Apollo. How is that not suited for battles?

Big Mom doesn't snatch souls in a 1v1 IIRC.

Yea but if one has the stronger haki, then it can sway the battle. Mihawk doesn't have a DF either.

 

[Nie Li]

The point is.

We are assuming Shanks has no DF and fights only with a sword, right? That means he's 100% a swordsman.
If he's a stronger fighter than Mihawk while being 100% a swordsman, then he IS a stronger swordsman. Then Zoro will have to defeat Shanks to become the WSS for real.

Zoro isn't after the WSS "title" as in "I just want the champion belt". He wants to actually be the strongest swordsman because that's the promise he made, but I can't see Zoro fighting Shanks. That will definitely be a fight for Luffy if their crews ever clash. So Mihawk has to be a stronger fighter than Shanks so the plot won't have Zoro fighting Shanks.

That's how I see it. But as I said, I can only explain my reasoning, but I can't debate it for the simple fact that we haven't seen Mihawk being serious yet so it's all speculation.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

Big Mom doesn't snatch souls in a 1v1 IIRC.

 

[thedude]

Haki plays a factor to. No fight is actually only swords.

And Big Moms DF isn't suited for battles.

Right, haki is clearly the big unknown. Remember Vergo's hype. He was all haki and that made him extra strong. I imagine Shanks is even stronger than that, plus he has conquerors haki as well.

And I don't assume Shanks only fights with a sword, he has his feet as well. We honestly just don't know.

Also...there is nothing that even says Mihawk was a better swordsman than Shanks. Only that they duelled in epic duels, and then stopped when Shanks lost his arm. Mihawk's title is legit, but Shanks hasn't been interested in it, in being known as the WSS.

 

[Ramen]

The point is.

We are assuming Shanks has no DF and fights only with a sword, right? That means he's 100% a swordsman.
If he's a stronger fighter than Mihawk while being 100% a swordsman, then he IS a stronger swordsman. Then Zoro will have to defeat Shanks to become the WSS for real.

Zoro isn't after the WSS "title" as in "I just want the champion belt". He wants to actually be the strongest swordsman because that's the promise he made, but I can't see Zoro fighting Shanks. That will definitely be a fight for Luffy if their crews ever clash. So Mihawk has to be a stronger fighter than Shanks so the plot won't have Zoro fighting Shanks.

That's how I see it. But as I said, I can only explain my reasoning, but I can't debate it for the simple fact that we haven't seen Mihawk being serious yet so it's all speculation.

Well yea its all speculation but most of OP is that anyways. We've never seen a real top tier go at it.... Other than maybe Akainu.

All im saying is that Shanks doesn't seem to care about the WSS title. If he dropped it and moved on of course Mihawk gets it.

Zoro fighting Mihawk makes sense regardless.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

The point is.

We are assuming Shanks has no DF and fights only with a sword, right? That means he's 100% a swordsman.
If he's a stronger fighter than Mihawk while being 100% a swordsman, then he IS a stronger swordsman. Then Zoro will have to defeat Shanks to become the WSS for real.

Zoro isn't after the WSS "title" as in "I just want the champion belt". He wants to actually be the strongest swordsman because that's the promise he made, but I can't see Zoro fighting Shanks. That will definitely be a fight for Luffy if their crews ever clash. So Mihawk has to be a stronger fighter than Shanks so the plot won't have Zoro fighting Shanks.

That's how I see it. But as I said, I can only explain my reasoning, but I can't debate it for the simple fact that we haven't seen Mihawk being serious yet so it's all speculation.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

Oh she does? Nvm

 

[Nie Li]

Well yea its all speculation but most of OP is that anyways. We've never seen a real top tier go at it.... Other than maybe Akainu.

All im saying is that Shanks doesn't seem to care about the WSS title. If he dropped it and moved on of course Mihawk gets it.

Well, I guess we will have to wait five more years before we get at least some info about exactly why does Mihawk have the title and his past.

I just hope we get to see him fighting the marines and the manga doesn't just skip the shichibukai fights like it skipped the Reverie.

 

[Ramen]

Well, I guess we will have to wait five more years before we get at least some info about exactly why does Mihawk have the title and his past.

I just hope we get to see him fighting the marines and the manga doesn't just skip the shichibukai fights like it skipped the Reverie.

10 years** lol.

Would like to see him fighting side by side against Shanks against a common enemy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

Speaking of Warlords,

What are the power rankings for them? And where would Enel fit?

 

[thedude]

10 years** lol.

Would like to see him fighting side by side against Shanks against a common enemy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

Speaking of Warlords,

What are the power rankings for them? And where would Enel fit?

That's so hard to do. I don't have any gauge of Hancocks strength for instance. We don't have much in the way of feats, but they sent Coby and Fujitora to take her in. Now, maybe that's due to her having a country and army on her side, so more firepower was necessary, but it could just be based on her own strength.

Likewise, I know Weevil is strong, but just on design alone I want to put him below Buggy strength wise lol. I hate his design so much.

I'd probably go:

Mihawk/Hancock/Doflamingo/Kuma
Weevil



Buggy

 

[Ramen]

That's so hard to do. I don't have any gauge of Hancocks strength for instance. We don't have much in the way of feats, but they sent Coby and Fujitora to take her in. Now, maybe that's due to her having a country and army on her side, so more firepower was necessary, but it could just be based on her own strength.

Likewise, I know Weevil is strong, but just on design alone I want to put him below Buggy strength wise lol. I hate his design so much.

I'd probably go:

Mihawk/Hancock/Doflamingo/Kuma
Weevil



Buggy

OK. Where would Enel fit?

 

[thedude]

OK. Where would Enel fit?

I think all I mentioned use Haki, enel doesn't other than observation. I'd put him below Weevil. He can be hit with haki.

 

[Core D. Roy]

WSS to me just means you master everything about swordsmanship. It doesn't have to mean you can "beat" any other person that happens to swing around a bladed object. Just like being Pirate King doesn't automatically make Roger able to "beat" any Emperor (or anyone in the world, like many fans seem to believe).

WSS should be able to:

• "hear" the blade like Zoro learned vs. Mr. One; seems to be a style of observation haki specifically used for swords
• "flow" haki into the blade like Zoro occasionally does, but moreso the Wano style of ryuuoh armament haki
• "tame" a cursed or unruly blade, like Zoro does with Sandai Kitetsu and later Enma, respectively
• create a black blade (this one is especially important and shows true mastery, since it's the one sword thing Zoro hasn't done yet)

I just don't get why people focus so hard on the "strongest" part of the WSS title, when "swordsman" is clearly the most important part. Is Big Mom even a swordsman? She's a brilliant fighter but the only technique she's shown that requires actual swordsmanship is Ikoku Sovereignty, and I think that has more to do with her size/relation to giants than it does her ability as a swordsman. Likewise, Cognac is more of a DF ability than it is swordsmanship in any way.

Like, do Whitebeard or Kaidou count as "swordsman", when they don't use actual swords (I know Murakumogiri is one of the 12 Supreme Grades, I'm trying to make a point)? Getting caught up in this ridiculous minutiae is pretty useless, because the entirety of Zoro's very thin storyline has been "promise to friend, get strong, become WSS by beating WSS, who is Mihawk". It doesn't matter at all about anybody else, because we're explicitly told by the narrative that Mihawk is the end goal for Zoro.

So far, the only other contenders we've seen that come anywhere near "World's Strongest Swordsman" would be characters who made a black blade, like Ryuuma and Oden. Just below them would be characters like Zoro and Vista and Shanks, who are acknowledged by Mihawk as being strong swordsmen, but seem to have yet to make a black blade. Does this mean Mihawk can beat Shanks or vice versa? It doesn't matter at all, because Shanks's mastery of swordsmanship (as we know it) is simply below Mihawk's.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

Well, I guess we will have to wait five more years before we get at least some info about exactly why does Mihawk have the title and his past.

I just hope we get to see him fighting the marines and the manga doesn't just skip the shichibukai fights like it skipped the Reverie.

If we ever see any of Mihawk's past, I somehow doubt it'll have anything to do with the Marines. The one place in the world known for its crazy swordsmanship is Wano. Anybody who has the title of WSS would have to have gone to Wano at some point, considering the only two non-Mihawk characters we know for a fact created a black blade were Ryuuma and Oden.

 

[nik87]

WSS to me just means you master everything about swordsmanship. It doesn't have to mean you can "beat" any other person that happens to swing around a bladed object. Just like being Pirate King doesn't automatically make Roger able to "beat" any Emperor (or anyone in the world, like many fans seem to believe).

WSS should be able to:

• "hear" the blade like Zoro learned vs. Mr. One; seems to be a style of observation haki specifically used for swords
• "flow" haki into the blade like Zoro occasionally does, but moreso the Wano style of ryuuoh armament haki
• "tame" a cursed or unruly blade, like Zoro does with Sandai Kitetsu and later Enma, respectively
• create a black blade (this one is especially important and shows true mastery, since it's the one sword thing Zoro hasn't done yet)

Why name the character world's STRONGEST swordsman if it should be world's SKILLEST swordsman?
The other two world's strongest titles clearly refer to the strength, why isnt the 3rd WSx title referring to the same?
Also, where does the problem lie in Mihawk being above every other swordsman as the title says? Other than fans not liking it.
PK title doesnt represent strength like World Strongest titles do.

 

[Nie Li]

If we ever see any of Mihawk's past, I somehow doubt it'll have anything to do with the Marines. The one place in the world known for its crazy swordsmanship is Wano. Anybody who has the title of WSS would have to have gone to Wano at some point, considering the only two non-Mihawk characters we know for a fact created a black blade were Ryuuma and Oden.

Sorry, I didn't express myself correctly.
What I meant by wanting to see him fighting the marines wasn't referring to his past, but to the present. Now that hey have stripped him of his Shichibukai priviledges, marines have surrounded his island.

Edit: Wait, what black blade did Oden create? Both Enma and Ame no Habakiri aren't black.

I do agree about Mihawk needing to be somehow related to Wano to have such a title.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

About the rest of what you said on WSS, @zetsu banned , I agree with @nik87 .

OK. Where would Enel fit?

Enel, if he hasn't improved, should be weaker than the admirals simply because he lacks CoA while characters like Akainu are masters at it. Akainu was attacked at the same time by Marco and Vista who were using CoA (colorless, so probably the same advanced haki Luffy just learned) and he didn't even need to block them to avoid damage

However, Enel is still a monster logia user with the strongest CoO so far in the series. So he may very well be YC-level even without CoA.

 

[Pirate Queen]

WSS to me just means you master everything about swordsmanship. It doesn't have to mean you can "beat" any other person that happens to swing around a bladed object. Just like being Pirate King doesn't automatically make Roger able to "beat" any Emperor (or anyone in the world, like many fans seem to believe).

WSS should be able to:

• "hear" the blade like Zoro learned vs. Mr. One; seems to be a style of observation haki specifically used for swords
• "flow" haki into the blade like Zoro occasionally does, but moreso the Wano style of ryuuoh armament haki
• "tame" a cursed or unruly blade, like Zoro does with Sandai Kitetsu and later Enma, respectively
• create a black blade (this one is especially important and shows true mastery, since it's the one sword thing Zoro hasn't done yet)

I just don't get why people focus so hard on the "strongest" part of the WSS title, when "swordsman" is clearly the most important part. Is Big Mom even a swordsman? She's a brilliant fighter but the only technique she's shown that requires actual swordsmanship is Ikoku Sovereignty, and I think that has more to do with her size/relation to giants than it does her ability as a swordsman. Likewise, Cognac is more of a DF ability than it is swordsmanship in any way.

Like, do Whitebeard or Kaidou count as "swordsman", when they don't use actual swords (I know Murakumogiri is one of the 12 Supreme Grades, I'm trying to make a point)? Getting caught up in this ridiculous minutiae is pretty useless, because the entirety of Zoro's very thin storyline has been "promise to friend, get strong, become WSS by beating WSS, who is Mihawk". It doesn't matter at all about anybody else, because we're explicitly told by the narrative that Mihawk is the end goal for Zoro.

So far, the only other contenders we've seen that come anywhere near "World's Strongest Swordsman" would be characters who made a black blade, like Ryuuma and Oden. Just below them would be characters like Zoro and Vista and Shanks, who are acknowledged by Mihawk as being strong swordsmen, but seem to have yet to make a black blade. Does this mean Mihawk can beat Shanks or vice versa? It doesn't matter at all, because Shanks's mastery of swordsmanship (as we know it) is simply below Mihawk's.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

If we ever see any of Mihawk's past, I somehow doubt it'll have anything to do with the Marines. The one place in the world known for its crazy swordsmanship is Wano. Anybody who has the title of WSS would have to have gone to Wano at some point, considering the only two non-Mihawk characters we know for a fact created a black blade were Ryuuma and Oden.

My opinion has always been that Mihawks title comes from the strength of his swordsmanship. He has the strongest swordsmanship of anyone. Meaning anyone challenging him with only swordsmanship would lose.

Mihawks worlds strongest title is the only skill based title of the 3. Swordsmanship is a skill, being a man/creature isn't skill based. Its what you are biologically.

Ultimately Oda doesn't see to care about the title apparently. Only Zoro is aiming for it. A one man races isn't much of a race.. And as the only one aiming for it he needed training by the only man that's ever held the title. And if those title were more Important WB's would have been given to someone else in the last 2 years.

Hype titles...

 

[Nie Li]

My opinion has always been that Mihawks title comes from the strength of his swordsmanship. He has the strongest swordsmanship of anyone. Meaning anyone challenging him with only swordsmanship would lose.

Mihawks worlds strongest title is the only skill based title of the 3. Swordsmanship is a skill, being a man/creature isn't skill based. Its what you are biologically.

Ultimately Oda doesn't see to care about the title apparently. Only Zoro is aiming for it. A one man races isn't much of a race.. And as the only one aiming for it he needed training by the only man that's ever held the title. And if those title were more Important WB's would have been given to someone else in the last 2 years.

Hype titles...

I think it's different. World's Strongest Man was actually Whitebeard's epithet. Same for Kaido the Strongest Beast.

Mihawk's epithet, however, is Hawk Eyes, while World Strongest Swordsman is a title.
We don't know if he's the first man to hold it because we don't know the story of the title of what he did to get it, and we don't know if he was more challenged for it in the past for any other crazy swordsman seeking prestige. What we know is that no one dares to bother him too much despite having no crew and living alone.

On another hand, the title only involves prestige, is not like there's any prize money involved since ever since Mihawk became a Shichibukai there's not even a prize for his head.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

There's another thing to consider. If other pirates and marines in the OP world thought that Mihawk can't win against another pure swordsman like Shanks or, say, Vista, why would they bother acknowledging him as the strongest and don't just refer to him as "Hawk Eyes the considerably strong swordsman"?
It's clear he must have earned the title somehow.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think it's different. World's Strongest Man was actually Whitebeard's epithet. Same for Kaido the Strongest Beast.

Mihawk's epithet, however, is Hawk Eyes, while World Strongest Swordsman is a title.
We don't know if he's the first man to hold it because we don't know the story of the title of what he did to get it, and we don't know if he was more challenged for it in the past for any other crazy swordsman seeking prestige. What we know is that no one dares to bother him too much despite having no crew and living alone.

On another hand, the title only involves prestige, is not like there's any prize money involved since ever since Mihawk became a Shichibukai there's not even a prize for his head.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2020 ---

There's another thing to consider. If other pirates and marines in the OP world thought that Mihawk can't win against another pure swordsman like Shanks or, say, Vista, why would they bother acknowledging him as the strongest and just refer to him as "Hawk Eyes the considerably strong swordsman"?
It's clear he must have earned the title somehow.

No epithet for WB was "Whitebeard" and Kaido's epithet is "100 Beasts"

Lol epithets are nicknames not titles

 

[Nie Li]

No epithet for WB was "Whitebeard" and Kaido's epithet is "100 Beasts"

Lol epithets are nicknames not titles

Okay, you got me on that part.