One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

Katakuri IS mochi though. And mochi is an elastic substance.... So it's not strange that even if he behaves like a logia stuff would bound off him. In the end he has a fair bit of freedom regarding how he handles that type of thing given the nature of his fruit and his skill with haki. Logia are ultimately limited by the properties of their element so it makes sense the same applies to katakuri. Any logia that is more... tangible than others (say, magma or ice vs smoke for instance) would behave differently in this sort of situations.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

That's my point. I see that Logias are about "associated powers". If the category was just "elements found in nature", those paramecias I mentioned should be considered logias. If Katakuri really had the associated powers of a logia, he would be a logia even if he's mochi. It just happens that he makes use of the malleability of his body and his advanced CoO to "make it look like a logia".

They wouldn't be logias because they don't do the stuff logias do. Pika does not transform into rocks or earth. Nor does he have the majority of powers associated with a logia. foxy does not transform into anything through any means, he has exactly zero in common with logia. and miss valentine... pretty much the same. In her case there isn't even something he could transform into, she just manipulates her... density I suppose. None of the examples you mention have any degree of ambiguity in this regard.

And I maintain what I said earlier: What katakuri does works because his fruit behaves like a logia. He doesn't do it to look like a logia. Haki allows contact with logia, what katakuri tricked people into believing is not something logia can do.

 

[Nie Li]

Well, there's not much more than can be said right now about Katakuri's DF, but I really fail to see why he wouldn't just categorized as a logia if his DF worked literally just like one. The argument about mochi not being found in nature doesn't satisfy me as an explanation because of what I've argued (other paramecias being forces of nature, and if that was enough of a reason to be logias, even Pica would be just "a unique kind of logia like Blackbeard"). I think the grouping works depending on how the DF's work rather than the element being natural or artificial.

 

[kkck]

Well, there's not much more than can be said right now about Katakuri's DF, but I really fail to see why he wouldn't just categorized as a logia if his DF worked literally just like one. The argument about mochi not being found in nature doesn't satisfy me as an explanation because of what I've argued (other paramecias being forces of nature, and if that was enough of a reason to be logias, even Pica would be just "a unique kind of logia like Blackbeard"). I think the grouping works depending on how the DF's work rather than the element being natural or artificial.

It's literally in the name "nature system". And in the cases you mention literally none of the people actually transform into something, in nature or otherwise. There are better examples for the case you are trying to make but even in those you'd simply have that they don't transform into their element. say, mr 3. He can create and control wax but he can't become wax... thus he simply does not behave like a logia. Oven is a heat man but he can't become heat or fire... And probably can't control foreign heat. Luffy is rubber, something that exists in nature, but he can't become intangible, generate rubber or control foreign rubber. Even with pika's case you just can't group it with other logia simply because it does not actually behave like a logia. The most important part there should be becoming an element and then the capacity to generate and control it. If katakuri was a logia then he'd have a "nature system" type fruit which... has nothing to do with nature.

 

[Fox666]

Well, there's not much more than can be said right now about Katakuri's DF, but I really fail to see why he wouldn't just categorized as a logia if his DF worked literally just like one. The argument about mochi not being found in nature doesn't satisfy me as an explanation because of what I've argued (other paramecias being forces of nature, and if that was enough of a reason to be logias, even Pica would be just "a unique kind of logia like Blackbeard"). I think the grouping works depending on how the DF's work rather than the element being natural or artificial.

Pica can only assimilate stone.

Blackbeard is not really unique, that's just the effect of his own fruit.

Edit: Wow, this is the Zoro thread?

 

[hokageji]

No logia works like the picture you posted, though.

That looks more like when someone shoots Luffy, if anything.

Well Katakuri's DF was intiially labelled as logia and then retconned to special paramecia for the same reason, cos the intention was to showcase his ability as a logia.
Plus, he can control it to an extreme effect and with future sight, can successfully evade these attacks even if they are haki imbued. which is why the discussion about Zoro's attacks being dodged comes from....

 

[Pirate Queen]

I know this is a power level thread in the sense of "this personal is strong and here's why" but the term power doesn't just correlate to strength but all aspects of what would make one powerful and this chapter truly cements something.

Kaido is truly acknowledging that Luffy is someone to defeat. He accepts Luffy's challenge i.e. Luffy is someone of worth.

"I heard you Strawhat, Come. I accept your challenge..."

Kaido isn't addressing the 9RS who had just pierced his flesh, but this renewed in confidence Luffy who declared war upon everything Kaido has created. In this moment Kaido know it is Luffy who must be defeated above all. He acknowledge no one else but Luffy... who amassed such an army from nothing but his ability to make all those around him an ally.

In terms of all power on Wano, Luffy already stands equal to Kaido.

So whether you accept Luffy as the 5th Emperor or not, doesn't matter. Kaido is acknowledging luffy.

That being said I hope next chapter starts off with Luffy clashing with BM while the Minks clash with Kaido

 

[Nie Li]

The wiki does acknowledge Katakurii

It's literally in the name "nature system". And in the cases you mention literally none of the people actually transform into something, in nature or otherwise. There are better examples for the case you are trying to make but even in those you'd simply have that they don't transform into their element. say, mr 3. He can create and control wax but he can't become wax... thus he simply does not behave like a logia. Oven is a heat man but he can't become heat or fire... And probably can't control foreign heat. Luffy is rubber, something that exists in nature, but he can't become intangible, generate rubber or control foreign rubber. Even with pika's case you just can't group it with other logia simply because it does not actually behave like a logia. The most important part there should be becoming an element and then the capacity to generate and control it. If katakuri was a logia then he'd have a "nature system" type fruit which... has nothing to do with nature.

Pica can only assimilate stone.

Blackbeard is really unique, that's just the effect of his own fruit.

Edit: Wow, this is the Zoro thread?

But you're arguing that since it's called "nature system", the basis for that category is that only "nature-related stuff" (instead of man-made) are allowed, but at the same time you acknowledge that it's not really that much about things being nature-related but about the fruits granting a specific set of abilities.

So what is it? Is it "nature-related" stuff that are logias? Then even if DFs like Pica's don't turn into anything, they'd still be logias. If logias are, on the other hand, decided by the set of skills they bring forward, then the Mochi fruit should be a logia even if it's not nature-related. Pick one.

Well Katakuri's DF was intiially labelled as logia and then retconned to special paramecia for the same reason, cos the intention was to showcase his ability as a logia.
Plus, he can control it to an extreme effect and with future sight, can successfully evade these attacks even if they are haki imbued. which is why the discussion about Zoro's attacks being dodged comes from....

Yeah I know, I gave my opinion on whether he could dodge Zoro with his DF or not on my first post on the topic.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't think Zoro is a very mobile fighter, not in the sense that it is a bad thing tho. But his final moves are usually him standing still, drawing upon his strength, and slashing. Its his style but it not going to cut it against such a versatile fighter whose entire being involves hightened CoO. Slashes are meaningless. Katakuri dodge easily and can even create completely separate appendages to attack and block with.

His block machine's haki infused fists are insanely strong and he has his trident on top of everything else.

That and Zoro does poorly against any opponent with a gimmick. His main fights have been straight forward i can swing my sword better than you. Put him up against Enel, Crocodile, Katakuri or Doflamingo who are far more versatile and its speels bad news for Zoro.

Even the potential match up with King has the makings of his fight pattern.

That being said, if Katakuri didn't have future sight... I'd vote for Zoro.

Something you just can't overcome with strength.

 

[Shasha23]

Are we just going to ignore that Katakuri explained he used his future sight to dodge attacks before they landed on him?
Are we going to ignore the fact that Luffy was shocked he was able to land 2 hits on him without haki before going G4?
Are we going to ignore that Katakuri is a paramecia and not a logia?
Are you going to ignore the fact that special Paramecia are those that can change their body and emit the same properties?
Why are you trying to change the narrative of Katakuri's ability just so your nonsensical statements can me sense?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

I don't think Zoro is a very mobile fighter, not in the sense that it is a bad thing tho. But his final moves are usually him standing still, drawing upon his strength, and slashing. Its his style but it not going to cut it against such a versatile fighter whose entire being involves hightened CoO. Slashes are meaningless. Katakuri dodge easily and can even create completely separate appendages to attack and block with.

His block machine's haki infused fists are insanely strong and he has his trident on top of everything else.

That and Zoro does poorly against any opponent with a gimmick. His main fights have been straight forward i can swing my sword better than you. Put him up against Enel, Crocodile, Katakuri or Doflamingo who are far more versatile and its speels bad news for Zoro.

Even the potential match up with King has the makings of his fight pattern.

That being said, if Katakuri didn't have future sight... I'd vote for Zoro.

Something you just can't overcome with strength.

I cant believe i agree with you on this.
Very true Zoro will have a hard time landing hits on Katakuri while on the other hand Katakuri wouldnt be able to overpower Zoro but rather would use his troublesome ability to cancel out Zoro's power.

In terms of CoA, strength and attack power i give it to Zoro over Katakuri but the mochi man showed he is very agile and is quick to adapt to his enemy and use the right strategy to beat them, IMO Katakuri is intelligent enough to not go head to head like an idiot against Zoro but would use his ability to try and neutralize Zoro and wear him down, whether or not Zoro will be able to adapt to Katakuri is a different story.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Are we just going to ignore that Katakuri explained he used his future sight to dodge attacks before they landed on him?
Are we going to ignore the fact that Luffy was shocked he was able to land 2 hits on him without haki before going G4?
Are we going to ignore that Katakuri is a paramecia and not a logia?
Are you going to ignore the fact that special Paramecia are those that can change their body and emit the same properties?
Why are you trying to change the narrative of Katakuri's ability just so your nonsensical statements can me sense?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

I cant believe i agree with you on this.
Very true Zoro will have a hard time landing hits on Katakuri while on the other hand Katakuri wouldnt be able to overpower Zoro but rather would use his troublesome ability to cancel out Zoro's power.

In terms of CoA, strength and attack power i give it to Zoro over Katakuri but the mochi man showed he is very agile and is quick to adapt to his enemy and use the right strategy to beat them, IMO Katakuri is intelligent enough to not go head to head like an idiot against Zoro but would use his ability to try and neutralize Zoro and wear him down, whether or not Zoro will be able to adapt to Katakuri is a different story.

We really haven't seen Zoro adapt or have to change his style in the middle of a fight. I think the closest we have seen is him utilizing the RYOU for the first time again Mr. And he wasn't changing his fighting style.

Using FS to neutralize Zoro is a good way to put it. If Zoro could overpower Katakuri we may never know but strength is only one aspect. Luffy was certainly strong enough but it required a degree of luck and adaptability we havent yet seen from Zoro.

Neutralize... i like that word. I'm using it in the future lol

 

[M3J]

Is this after the flashback on Oden? Kaidou recognized Luffy's strength right after defeating him because he saw how Luffy looked at him, and the fact that Luffy used CoC even after being taken out, I believe. Instead of killing Luffy out of revenge, Kaidou preferred to break Luffy down if he had to to get Luffy to join.

Luffy's willpower is what makes him extremely strong. He was one of the weakest characters in Marineford, but he had the most impact because his willpower allowed him to keep going even when his body couldn't take anymore, which led to Ace's freedom. Current strength Luffy without his willpower wouldn't be impressive or anything to praise, honestly. Had Luffy shown some fear or hesitation, he wouldn't have the allies he does now or be respected by the likes of Whitebeard and Kaidou, who saw his determination.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Is this after the flashback on Oden? Kaidou recognized Luffy's strength right after defeating him because he saw how Luffy looked at him, and the fact that Luffy used CoC even after being taken out, I believe. Instead of killing Luffy out of revenge, Kaidou preferred to break Luffy down if he had to to get Luffy to join.

Luffy's willpower is what makes him extremely strong. He was one of the weakest characters in Marineford, but he had the most impact because his willpower allowed him to keep going even when his body couldn't take anymore, which led to Ace's freedom. Current strength Luffy without his willpower wouldn't be impressive or anything to praise, honestly. Had Luffy shown some fear or hesitation, he wouldn't have the allies he does now or be respected by the likes of Whitebeard and Kaidou, who saw his determination.

Great add on. This just happened last chapter.

And willpower is another one of those aspects that encompass "powerful" i know its highly opinionated in certain respects, but my goal was to highlight how "Powerful" Luffy has become in the sense that Kaido is accepting his challenge INSTEAD of trying to break him.

Kaido now know he can't break Luffy so the challenge is accepted and either he is defwated or Luffy

 

[M3J]

Great add on. This just happened last chapter.

And willpower is another one of those aspects that encompass "powerful" i know its highly opinionated in certain respects, but my goal was to highlight how "Powerful" Luffy has become in the sense that Kaido is accepting his challenge INSTEAD of trying to break him.

Kaido now know he can't break Luffy so the challenge is accepted and either he is defwated or Luffy

wtf at name change, and good luck if you get PMs from dudes

I think willpower is a major part of what makes one powerful. I mean, Whitebeard was considered the strongest character, but look at how he kept fighting even after all the damage he took. Luffy breaking out probably made Kaidou realize that he can't break Luffy, and that the fight would end in his loss or Luffy's death.

Or he just thinks Luffy's a crazy fucker for challenging him again after being one-shot, and he respects Luffy for that.

 

[nik87]

And willpower is another one of those aspects that encompass "powerful" i know its highly opinionated in certain respects, but my goal was to highlight how "Powerful" Luffy has become in the sense that Kaido is accepting his challenge INSTEAD of trying to break him.
Kaido now know he can't break Luffy so the challenge is accepted and either he is defwated or Luffy

Are you telling me we are heading towards the Katakuri fiasco nr2?
The only thing left is for Kaido to drop his weapon and say: I no longer consider you beneath myself.

 

[nik87]

Look above in your posts, your saying them all even now about it on going after Kaido and saying he stronger than Luffy. I back my side already as your doing it for me by how you post, but you back nothing against mine own posts so far on your stances. Also for rest of your claims, I already prove you wrong and your clearly ignoring them without debating against. I just show you Kyoshiro vs Zoro and you think he didn't best him? Again, if your not going to admit when your wrong, not going to waste time someone who is using headcannon over canon to ignore the reality of things.

He came with Enma with Apoo and Gifters and look what happen. Are you saying he refuse to use them in those fights as he did already at start of war when invading an Beast Pirates ship with the others. Again nothing shown anything Zoro is stronger than he is if he is having trouble with Apoo and unable to pass through Gifters by himself. If you got nothing to show, then you proven nothing on any of your accounts.

He fainted and your knockout when you faint like that for days and he did lose his sword as didn't Gyukimaro took it? Where he got Shusui back? He never did and had to let it go. So yeah you didn't admit fault on that, so not going to believe you will now with how your acting against everyone who stating your faults in your arguments. Come back when you got evidence to show I was wrong on my areas as he proven nothing just like Zoro vs Katakuri argument you think he can easily beat him with no proof XD.

What am I saying? Yes I am saying Zoro will be going after Kaido. Where is the part where I said that he will solo him?
It's obvious that Zoro is stronger than Luffy since he could have killed Kaido back in ch923 when Luffy got the life spanked out of him without scratching Kaido.
No, you never back your side because headcanon cannot be backed up, You didnt prove anything wrong, that's why I am asking you to prove it now.
No, you didnt show Kyoshiro besting Zoro unless you dont know what besting means. Do you admit you dont know what it means?

He came with Enma with Apoo? No he didnt come with Apoo. He came with gifters? He didnt come with gifters? Do you know what come with means?
I cant tell what you are trying to say because of your bad english... From what I saw in the manga, he never fought Apoo and he cleared tons of gifters for couple of chapters. You can tell us what you think happened but in proper English otherwise, dont bother. Am I refusing that Zoro is using who? Enma? When have I refused that? Quote me. You say that nothing shows that Zoro is stronger than he is while you dont know how strong Zoro is and at the same time you say he is swinging Enma and getting some power from it? The best of headcanon. Having trouble with Apoo? He never engaged Apoo if you didnt realize.
Having trouble to pass through Gifters? Bet your ass he is having trouble, dealing with high number of enemies who arent fodder is trouble for everyone.
I dont have anything to prove, you are the one who is making wild claims which cannot be proven.

Did he faint or was he knocked out? Can you tell the difference between them? He fainted for days? More headcanon. I dont care about him losing the Shusui.
For some reason you bring up him losing the sword as some major thing which proves Zoro's power or something, what's up with that? What are you trying to say? I didnt admit fault on that? What was my fault on that? I wasnt the one who was making that claim, you were. I dont have nothing to do with your claims.
I am acting against everyone who stating my faults in my arguments? What faults, lol? What your areas? Shusui? Dont care about it, just like Zoro doesnt care but it seems to be your favorite lollipop? Zoro beating Katakuri is fanmade match-up, it cannot be proven or disproven, there are no definitive facts on either outcomes and you are acting like manga has shown Katakuri beating Zoro, lol. I think your hate for Zoro has reached new levels, you are probably jealous because he is a major player in the current arc but you brought it down on yourself, I warned you that Wano wont be easy for Zoro haters.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

Something you just can't overcome with strength.

Seems like Mihawk and Shanks stand no chance against Katakuri.

 

[kkck]

When did luffy ever land a hit on katakuri without haki? that's not a thing...

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

The wiki does acknowledge Katakurii


But you're arguing that since it's called "nature system", the basis for that category is that only "nature-related stuff" (instead of man-made) are allowed, but at the same time you acknowledge that it's not really that much about things being nature-related but about the fruits granting a specific set of abilities.

So what is it? Is it "nature-related" stuff that are logias? Then even if DFs like Pica's don't turn into anything, they'd still be logias. If logias are, on the other hand, decided by the set of skills they bring forward, then the Mochi fruit should be a logia even if it's not nature-related. Pick one.


Yeah I know, I gave my opinion on whether he could dodge Zoro with his DF or not on my first post on the topic.

Well, it's both. It has to be nature (because it's in the name) and you need you have the abilities characteristic of being able to fully become an element.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Are you telling me we are heading towards the Katakuri fiasco nr2?
The only thing left is for Kaido to drop his weapon and say: I no longer consider you beneath myself.

Shanks stopped the War with mere words. Thats power...

You've convinced yourself strength is the only thing that matter when there is so much more that causes a character to actually win a fight.

It can also include the strength of their convictions and strength of their resolve.

Its why more people wanna be Pirate King than the WSS, WSM, or WSC

 

[Shasha23]

When did luffy ever land a hit on katakuri without haki? that's not a thing...

Can you go start reading from chapter 883 before commenting again about Katakuri and his abilities

 

[Pirate Queen]

Can you go start reading from chapter 883 before commenting again about Katakuri and his abilities

I just reread the fight and I don't see where Katakuri was hit without haki.

 

[kkck]

Can you go start reading from chapter 883 before commenting again about Katakuri and his abilities

OR, you could actually specify when this happened before doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on it.