Discussion Yamato’s Gender

[hokageji]

Discussing whether or not Yamato is a trans character or an Oden impersonator is fine. I don't agree with the latter, but the discussion can be had as long as it's decent.

Transphobia, however, will not be tolerated.

Yea, i understand not tolerating hatred, but if people are going to label one as phobic, there must be a better explanation to it, rather than just pronouns...

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2020 ---

My brother actually said it best. If Oden never existed, she wouldn't have anyone to model herself after and would have most likely been herself.


Trans people actually believe they are a different gender from their birth gender. They don't just one day decide to model themselves after someone and say they are trans.

Her decision to be a man has been presented that its based solely on Oden being a man.

I think its very apt to say that Yamato will be Oden and is aiming 100% for that... If she had adored Ivankov, perhaps her inspirations would reflect more of that too, like the way she dresses etc..

Even with her being Oden, why stop at only the dress? Why does she leave her hair long? Why not cut them short / die them to match Oden? How much of Oden is she inspired from, cos her moves and fighting style are more like Kaido.

But again, the issue or purpose of the thread is tied to pronouns and that is the part that is complicated. It Even with Okiku, he refers to Izo as brother, and herself as a male samurai while others have referred to her as her.... So it is not crystal clear to the reader...

 

[HereNThere]

Yea, i understand not tolerating hatred, but if people are going to label one as phobic, there must be a better explanation to it, rather than just pronouns...

Trust me, that wasn't aimed at you. That being said, misgendering is a thing and is something that is seen as an erasure of the trans identity as well as a way to just make them feel like crap for just trying to exist.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2020 ---

But again, the issue or purpose of the thread is tied to pronouns and that is the part that is complicated. It Even with Okiku, he refers to Izo as brother, and herself as a male samurai while others have referred to her as her.... So it is not crystal clear to the reader...

Okiku straight up says she's a woman at heart, so that's clear cut as far as I'm concerned. Plus Oda has presented her exceedingly differently than his previous portrayals of characters like Bon Clay and Ivankov. Never mind that Oda has referred to Okiku as a she in an SBS .

 

[hokageji]

Trust me, that wasn't aimed at you.

I know, but i still appreciate the clarification. I just mean people storming off or throwing words like transphobic without justifying themselves is wrong as well...

Okiku straight up says she's a woman at heart, so that's clear cut as far as I'm concerned.

Yea, but doesn't she use a male specific pronoun when referring to herself? Sheesha or something that means a male samurai, so its not as clear cut to me.

 

[HereNThere]

Yea, but doesn't she use a male specific pronoun when referring to herself? Sheesha or something that means a male samurai, so its not as clear cut to me.

Not sure, but everything points to her being a woman. As I mentioned, Oda refers to her as she as well.

 

[slavkovski]

For me i dont want to make it complicated, if a character look like a she/he, i will call it the way their appearance for me.. so for me yamato is a she, okiku is a she, Izzo doesnt really look like a women for me cause his face still looks like a man so i think i will call izzo a "he", i always do that even in other manga like Hunter x Hunter, Alluka & Kalluto are a She, Pitou a She, etc

 

[hokageji]

Not sure, but everything points to her being a woman. As I mentioned, Oda refers to her as she as well.

Well, yea if Oda referred to as her, i guess its OK.... anyways, Okiku is an easier one than Yamato... I am not sure how Yamato refers to herself as, just know she calls herself as Kaido's son.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2020 ---

zzo doesnt really look like a women for me cause his face still looks like a man so i think i will call izzo a "he"

Izzo was confusing cos he looked like a woman but agian, back then when the actual chapter released,translations would suck too... i remm it was anime that cleared things up with the voice..

HxH, oh man, lets not go there....

 

[strawhatcrew]

I dont mean to offense. Everyone could be what they want to be. But, this is only a manga. Calling yamato as she is not disrecpeting anyone. Its not like manga character can get offend. Shes a female and its a FACT. Ppl are ofcouse free to refer to yamato as he or she. It doesnt mean anything. Dont be oversensitive.

 

[kkck]

Izo's first appearance had a more femenine look to it iirc and over time is became increasingly more mascule... As he appeared more and more it became clearer izzo was a crossdreser. I am unclear as to whether izo refers to himself as a woman or is simply a crossdresser though.

 

[M3J]

Based on how Yamato identifies, it'd be appropriate to say you are mis-naming him by calling him anything other than Oden.

I think the answer to your question is in your post. Yamato doesn't identify as a man, Yamato identifies as Oden. The latest bit about "Momonosuke being his son" pretty much hits this one home. If Oden had been female, Yamato would be referring to himself as she/her. If Oden had been gender-fluid, Yamato would be gender-fluid.

I mean, Kaidou and others call him Yamato, and so far he's had no issue with being called by his birth name.

To be honest though, I feel like we should just use "their/they" for Yamato until they make it clear how they identify themselves as.

I dont mean to offense. Everyone could be what they want to be. But, this is only a manga. Calling yamato as she is not disrecpeting anyone. Its not like manga character can get offend. Shes a female and its a FACT. Ppl are ofcouse free to refer to yamato as he or she. It doesnt mean anything. Dont be oversensitive.

But it can also translate to how one thinks in real life. If a reader refuses to acknowledge a transgender character by their preferred pronoun, then there's a chance they're the same in real life as well.

 

[DioXIII]

I think Yamato is meant to be female "LARPing" as Oden, and is so in the role that "she" insists on being a "he". Yamato last chapter went "uh...yeah, I should go to Momonosuke, he's my son". That to me is beyond it being a question of gender and going into serious LARP territory. Yamato genuinely wants to become Oden. Achieve his goals, his appearance (look at choice of clothing), his gender and his family. Also note that Yamato's official textbox with the gender reveal is "Kaido's Daughter (Self-Proclaimed Kozuki Oden)" or something to that effect - to me, if Yamato was intended to be FtM transgender, Oda would put "Kaido's son". I think Yamato only sees herself as male so far as she is deep into her roleplay as Kozuki Oden, and that if it was otherwise, Oda would have made it clear, like he did with Kiku.

Oda has no problem portraying cross dressers (Bon Clay, Ivankov, Izo?) or transgender characters (Kiku - body of a man but the heart of a woman) and has done so for decades. I think Oda would make it pretty clear in design or put something that clearly indicated that Yamato is transgender. Regardless, I am pretty confident that someone will ask this question in SBS for clarification seeing as it's a point of debate/confusion, where Oda will give his definitive answer.

As for why Kaido calls Yamato his son, I think if we look at him and his crew - generally a very "manly" crew where brute force/strength means you get promoted. I wouldn't be surprised if Kaido wanted a son, but instead had Yamato. So when Yamato comes in and wants to be called a "man", he's on board with it. He gets his "son". This is also something I am certain someone will ask in an SBS, probably with the above. TBH I can't wait for a more in depth Yamato backstory with Ace and interactions with Kaido eight years ago. It would probably make the gender/general identity question clearer.

 

[jaymizzo]

But it can also translate to how one thinks in real life. If a reader refuses to acknowledge a transgender character by their preferred pronoun, then there's a chance they're the same in real life as well.

The opposite is also true. Its why most shows like South Park still exist, because it laughs at the idea of projecting and forcing people to conform based on a cartoon character.

When people are being hateful its one thing but forcing a way of thinking is just as bad. As someone mentioned, this is a forum that is not limited to western thought. Issues of gender/sex etc aren't as talked about or sensitive to other cultures.

Spoiler: Tangent

@hokageji
The current culture is, if I don't like what you are saying/it doesn't conform to my worldview, you are a "phobe" "ist". I mean feminists who have paved the way for equal rights are now called phobes of some sort.

Its literally - why don't you understand me (but I will make no effort in understanding you). Its why you see a lot of minorities in the west becoming more conservative.

 

[kkck]

Update: Yamato is still not a transgender character in any way that matters. She is just a lunatic that at best is the most hardcore cosplayer in the history of manga and at worst is pretty much attempting identity theft.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 26, 2020 ---

Update: Kiku is still a transgender character but no one gives a shit about her.

 

[hokageji]

Spoiler

@hokageji
The current culture is, if I don't like what you are saying/it doesn't conform to my worldview, you are a "phobe" "ist". I mean feminists who have paved the way for equal rights are now called phobes of some sort.

Its literally - why don't you understand me (but I will make no effort in understanding you). Its why you see a lot of minorities in the west becoming more conservative.

agreed
Yea, they just casually drop the phobe bomb, and not contribute anything to the conversation and leave. People should learn that its okay for others to not share your opinion, plus the fact that people who dont know aren't assholes, they could be unaware which is expected in a forum with global contributors.
They take it too far...

But it can also translate to how one thinks in real life. If a reader refuses to acknowledge a transgender character by their preferred pronoun, then there's a chance they're the same in real life as well.

How would you refer to Okiku, as a he, or a she?

 

[M3J]

The opposite is also true. Its why most shows like South Park still exist, because it laughs at the idea of projecting and forcing people to conform based on a cartoon character.

When people are being hateful its one thing but forcing a way of thinking is just as bad. As someone mentioned, this is a forum that is not limited to western thought. Issues of gender/sex etc aren't as talked about or sensitive to other cultures.

Spoiler: Tangent

@hokageji
The current culture is, if I don't like what you are saying/it doesn't conform to my worldview, you are a "phobe" "ist". I mean feminists who have paved the way for equal rights are now called phobes of some sort.

Its literally - why don't you understand me (but I will make no effort in understanding you). Its why you see a lot of minorities in the west becoming more conservative.

I'm not sure if there's an attempt to force a way of thinking as there is trying to get people to leave the minorities alone.

Possibly, but I doubt it. I mean, feminists who have paved the way are also against transgender women or were racist, so why wouldn't they be labeled as such?

How would you refer to Okiku, as a he, or a she?

A she? Does Okiku not identify as a woman?

 

[hokageji]

A she? Does Okiku not identify as a woman?

She says she's a woman at heart, but referring to herself, she refers as a male samurai..... So its not very straightforward for readers.... That is why i have asked in the forum how does Yamato refer to self, i mean by which pronoun. Cos he could be using she, while calling herself Oden. Translations may not have the ideal answer, and even @modoki has mentioned that people in Japan are confused about it.

Bottomline is, i get your point that if a person expects a particular pronoun, like Kaitlyn Jenner as a she, i find it acceptable. But with Yamato, its not written in stone. First of all, she looks way too much like Nami, has her feminine features exaggerated and does nothing to stop that and calls self as a man because of her fascination with Oden. Nothing obviously translates to him or her wanting to be a man, more than being Oden.
And if you think refering to herself as a man is enough to call her as him, there is a WWE superstar calling herself as "THE MAN", but she is the woman's champ and does everything else ladylike. She doesnt become a he.
Now its fair that we dont compare the two, but the main point is its not clear enough that people who do it otherwise should be labelled as a transphobe. That in my opinion shows refusal to expect people not knowing coming from multiple cultural backgrounds....

 

[kkck]

She says she's a woman at heart, but referring to herself, she refers as a male samurai..... So its not very straightforward for readers.... That is why i have asked in the forum how does Yamato refer to self, i mean by which pronoun. Cos he could be using she, while calling herself Oden. Translations may not have the ideal answer, and even @modoki has mentioned that people in Japan are confused about it.

Bottomline is, i get your point that if a person expects a particular pronoun, like Kaitlyn Jenner as a she, i find it acceptable. But with Yamato, its not written in stone. First of all, she looks way too much like Nami, has her feminine features exaggerated and does nothing to stop that and calls self as a man because of her fascination with Oden. Nothing obviously translates to him or her wanting to be a man, more than being Oden.
And if you think refering to herself as a man is enough to call her as him, there is a WWE superstar calling herself as "THE MAN", but she is the woman's champ and does everything else ladylike. She doesnt become a he.
Now its fair that we dont compare the two, but the main point is its not clear enough that people who do it otherwise should be labelled as a transphobe. That in my opinion shows refusal to expect people not knowing coming from multiple cultural backgrounds....

Isn't that mostly a technicality on how the japanese language works? IIRC this was pointed out early on but within the japanese context this was just weird and didn't necessarily mean she is a biological man. It's not the same as with the english language where the same situation would be contextually different. I am also not clear on how other characters in the series refer to kiku, I suppose there is a chance that translations are adjusting and referring to her as female for the more sensible english audiences though.

 

[hokageji]

sn't that mostly a technicality on how the japanese language works? IIRC this was pointed out early on but within the japanese context this was just weird and didn't necessarily mean she is a biological man. It's not the same as with the english language where the same situation would be contextually different. I am also not clear on how other characters in the series refer to kiku, I suppose there is a chance that translations are adjusting and referring to her as female for the more sensible english audiences though.

Yes, its not the same, and i am not saying she is a man, thats not my argument. My argument is to refrain from assuming that anyone not using proper pronouns is a transphobe. People come from different cultures themselves and thus different sensitivities and may not have same exposures....
THere's a different in saying "he is gonna take down heatbutt" vs "that fuckin crossdresser, goddamn oda why do u ahve to make trans characters"....

One is clearly phobic, other isnt.

 

[kkck]

Yes, its not the same, and i am not saying she is a man, thats not my argument. My argument is to refrain from assuming that anyone not using proper pronouns is a transphobe.

Sure, I am definitely not making any such accusations either. My point is more about the contextual and cultural context which is lost from japanese to english translations (also, I don't know exactly how much is being lost here, I am not that familiar with japanese culture and how they handle this type of issues). And yeah, I agree with you on the pronoun bit.

 

[M3J]

She says she's a woman at heart, but referring to herself, she refers as a male samurai..... So its not very straightforward for readers.... That is why i have asked in the forum how does Yamato refer to self, i mean by which pronoun. Cos he could be using she, while calling herself Oden. Translations may not have the ideal answer, and even @modoki has mentioned that people in Japan are confused about it.

Bottomline is, i get your point that if a person expects a particular pronoun, like Kaitlyn Jenner as a she, i find it acceptable. But with Yamato, its not written in stone. First of all, she looks way too much like Nami, has her feminine features exaggerated and does nothing to stop that and calls self as a man because of her fascination with Oden. Nothing obviously translates to him or her wanting to be a man, more than being Oden.
And if you think refering to herself as a man is enough to call her as him, there is a WWE superstar calling herself as "THE MAN", but she is the woman's champ and does everything else ladylike. She doesnt become a he.
Now its fair that we dont compare the two, but the main point is its not clear enough that people who do it otherwise should be labelled as a transphobe. That in my opinion shows refusal to expect people not knowing coming from multiple cultural backgrounds....

That's why I asked as well, and I feel like we should go by "she," even though he identifies as a he likely because he thinks he's Oden.

How is "a man" the same as "the man?"

Yes, its not the same, and i am not saying she is a man, thats not my argument. My argument is to refrain from assuming that anyone not using proper pronouns is a transphobe. People come from different cultures themselves and thus different sensitivities and may not have same exposures....
THere's a different in saying "he is gonna take down heatbutt" vs "that fuckin crossdresser, goddamn oda why do u ahve to make trans characters"....

One is clearly phobic, other isnt.

I think I made it clear that people not using proper pronouns after being asked to by the transgender person is likely transphobic?

 

[hokageji]

ure, I am definitely not making any such accusations either. My point is more about the contextual and cultural context which is lost from japanese to english translations (also, I don't know exactly how much is being lost here, I am not that familiar with japanese culture and how they handle this type of issues). And yeah, I agree with you on the pronoun bit.

Exactly, i am glad we are on the same page.

That's why I asked as well, and I feel like we should go by "she," even though he identifies as a he likely because he thinks he's Oden.

How is "a man" the same as "the man?"

To you, maybe not... I am not using this as a defense, as much as i am saying how it can be confusing to people...

I think I made it clear that people not using proper pronouns after being asked to by the transgender person is likely transphobic?

Well, then if Yamato is expecting to be addressed as a he, i guess it is and i haven't found a specific thing or any that suggests that, only that he/she wants to be Oden.
If she has, then i would myself call him as a he. I still feel its a reach calling it transphobic... unless its an offensive post.