Society Coronavirus Hangout

[desin24]

I feel like at least for US, the government will lie and say it doesn't have enough money while giving billions or trillions of dollars to the weapons industry and corporations.

I know in some states, the $400 per week that Trump said would happen went down to $300 as $400 is too much, like California for example. At the very least, the government should postpone rent and guarantee food and living expenses for almost everyone without a job or income. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but it might also be cheaper to supplement minimum wages to $15 to motivate people to go back to work, as it's cheaper to pay $3/hr difference than it is to pay $400 per week.

Those 400$ were bonus payments on top of unemployment money, right? Guaranteeing food and living expenses sounds good but would probably be an insurmountable administrative endeavor. How much food is "adequate" food? Same with living expenses. Easier said than done, and done efficiently and in a timely manner is even less probable given how gigantic the US is and how absolutely divided it is.

Not sure the 15$ minimum wage thing would change that much. Not sure many people need extra monetary motivation to go to work. More of a supply issue than a demand-side issue. This is not your common economic crisis where some fuck ups on wall street commandeered the world economy into the ground. Given the sometimes very strict restrictions on certain industries, you will have a ridiculously high amount of unemployed people by sheer choice of closing those industries.

 

[kkck]

Agreed, the $15 dollar an hour won't be motivation... it's just a living wage. And getting close to a living wage will be a strain on the economy as a whole if a bunch of industries and companies have straight up disappeared. Under normal circumstances if you approach this by the book what would happen is the government increasing its spending and straight up hiring a ton of people to inject money into the economy and pump up the private sector via consumer spending. Unfortunately with a pandemic even that is complicated....

 

[M3J]

Those 400$ were bonus payments on top of unemployment money, right? Guaranteeing food and living expenses sounds good but would probably be an insurmountable administrative endeavor. How much food is "adequate" food? Same with living expenses. Easier said than done, and done efficiently and in a timely manner is even less probable given how gigantic the US is and how absolutely divided it is.

Not sure the 15$ minimum wage thing would change that much. Not sure many people need extra monetary motivation to go to work. More of a supply issue than a demand-side issue. This is not your common economic crisis where some fuck ups on wall street commandeered the world economy into the ground. Given the sometimes very strict restrictions on certain industries, you will have a ridiculously high amount of unemployed people by sheer choice of closing those industries.

Trump's current suggestion? Yes. Back when it started months ago? It was actually $600 on top of unemployment, so you could make around $800 or so, as I did. It might be, but again, we spend billions on defense and warfare and on bailing out big businesses who keep misusing their money. If the government could do research and conclude $600 was the minimum best, then they can do the same with food. I mean, USA did do something similar back during the Great Depression.

According to few articles I read though, some people did ask to be laid off so they could get more from unemployment, which I don't blame them for.

 

[desin24]

Trump's current suggestion? Yes. Back when it started months ago? It was actually $600 on top of unemployment, so you could make around $800 or so, as I did. It might be, but again, we spend billions on defense and warfare and on bailing out big businesses who keep misusing their money. If the government could do research and conclude $600 was the minimum best, then they can do the same with food. I mean, USA did do something similar back during the Great Depression.

According to few articles I read though, some people did ask to be laid off so they could get more from unemployment, which I don't blame them for.

Wait so 600$ on top added up to 800 in total? wtf kind of benefits do you get? here you get 80% of your last salary as benefits. Also the whole bailing out businesses is a bit more complicated. It's not like the money just disappears in a black hole but I understand the sentiment of wanting the guillotine for those who get Boni after their enterprise gets some kind of government stimulus. In the balance between "capitalism" and "communism," it seems like the US refuses to move to a more balanced redistribution model. Which is proved to work very well for the happiest countries on the planet.

Isn't that a very american thing to do though? Make the choice that gives you the most benefits.

 

[Sanity Check]

In the balance between "capitalism" and "communism," it seems like the US refuses to move to a more balanced redistribution model.

Some EU nations have a higher deficit to GDP ratio than the US.

Proportionally their national debt is larger than america's.

Its how they sustain (or fail to sustain) their "balanced" redistribution.

 

[desin24]

Some EU nations have a higher deficit to GDP ratio than the US.

Proportionally their national debt is larger than america's.

Its how they sustain (or fail to sustain) their "balanced" redistribution.

Sure some EU nations (Italy has over 100%, Spain and France close to it and Portugal should have over 100% as well) have that higher deficit ratio but I was specifically talking about Happiness as the measuring factor. Also, GDP is a flawed economic performance figure. India has a far better deficit to GDP ratio but I would certainly choose to live in the US with its living standard to living in India.

 

[M3J]

Wait so 600$ on top added up to 800 in total? wtf kind of benefits do you get? here you get 80% of your last salary as benefits. Also the whole bailing out businesses is a bit more complicated. It's not like the money just disappears in a black hole but I understand the sentiment of wanting the guillotine for those who get Boni after their enterprise gets some kind of government stimulus. In the balance between "capitalism" and "communism," it seems like the US refuses to move to a more balanced redistribution model. Which is proved to work very well for the happiest countries on the planet.

Isn't that a very american thing to do though? Make the choice that gives you the most benefits.

$600 was the covid unemployment while ~$200 was my unemployment. Our benefits aren't that good because politicians don't care for Americans, and republicans least so.

But why put so much money into businesses only for them to continue mismanaging the money? Why not focus more on small businesses that actually need money? Big businesses will just likely lay off their workers so the shareholders benefit.

That's because of right wingers who hate seeing Americans do well and are against their own self-interest. I mean, there are people who aren't happy with ACA or reforms to ACA because it means "more money out of my pocket," even though $200 extra could save them $20,000. There are even people in Ohio who got mad at LeBron James for setting up a school for disadvantaged kids and complained about having to pay more in taxes. America will never do well as long as we have horrible people like this.


It is, but the right don't like it. When they mean "make the choices that give you the most benefits," they mean wealthy people and big businesses should do that at the expense of average people. It's messed up

 

[Sanity Check]

Sure some EU nations (Italy has over 100%, Spain and France close to it and Portugal should have over 100% as well) have that higher deficit ratio but I was specifically talking about Happiness as the measuring factor. Also, GDP is a flawed economic performance figure. India has a far better deficit to GDP ratio but I would certainly choose to live in the US with its living standard to living in India.

National debt is only 50% of the problem.

The other half is UBI raising taxes on businesses, making it harder for them to hire new workers or create jobs.

Tax hikes accompany layoffs and job killing. Over the long term programs like UBI kill more jobs than they save.

 

[Franckie]

I really, really wished right now we had competent leadership at the federal level...

 

[desin24]

National debt is only 50% of the problem.

The other half is UBI raising taxes on businesses, making it harder for them to hire new workers or create jobs.

Tax hikes accompany layoffs and job killing. Over the long term programs like UBI kill more jobs than they save.

UBI? You don't even have a single-payer healthcare system like the rest of the first world. Tax hikes are useless if you use a way out of proportion part of it to feed your military-industrial complex. A welfare state works pretty fucking well if you do it right. The US would have the economy to power such a model but you prefer chasing the ghost of the American dream instead of improving the reality the vast majority of people live in. Your government spending clearly shows your priorities and people and their welfare is certainly far below what they should be.

 

[M3J]

National debt is only 50% of the problem.

The other half is UBI raising taxes on businesses, making it harder for them to hire new workers or create jobs.

Tax hikes accompany layoffs and job killing. Over the long term programs like UBI kill more jobs than they save.

That's BS, especially when companies like Apple and Walmart can afford to pay more taxes without difficulty, and Bezos and Gates can pay more in taxes as well, WHILE we can reduce spending in defense and warfare and redirect that money to better stuff.

That's the businesses' fault, not UBI, because they're choosing to lay off people to maximize profits. THe main problem is that we have far too many poor people and vulnerable people, but people like you don't want to help them nor do you care about them other than as agenda, and you're okay with letting more people go poor and dying. THat's the problem with this country.

 

[kkck]

To the best of my knowledge, the US government has not raised taxes to pay for the workers stimulus money. Add to that that the stimulus money isn't quite an UBI (though I suppose it could be considered some sort of experiment on it).

 

[Sanity Check]

UBI? You don't even have a single-payer healthcare system like the rest of the first world. Tax hikes are useless if you use a way out of proportion part of it to feed your military-industrial complex. A welfare state works pretty fucking well if you do it right. The US would have the economy to power such a model but you prefer chasing the ghost of the American dream instead of improving the reality the vast majority of people live in. Your government spending clearly shows your priorities and people and their welfare is certainly far below what they should be.

Universal healthcare is a droll, dysfunctional and inferior system, for reasons identical to government agencies systemitcally being barred from producing ventilators, cars or rockets as efficiently with comparable quality to the private sector. Healthcare markets are rigged to present a fairy tale illusion of socialism being a good system. A conclusion which does not exist in the real world aside from false narratives.

Government spending in the united states is disproportionately skewed towards defense spending due to america footing the bill for the military defense of europe, asia and other regions of the world who do not pay their fair share to defend their own borders.

That's BS, especially when companies like Apple and Walmart can afford to pay more taxes without difficulty, and Bezos and Gates can pay more in taxes as well, WHILE we can reduce spending in defense and warfare and redirect that money to better stuff.

That's the businesses' fault, not UBI, because they're choosing to lay off people to maximize profits. THe main problem is that we have far too many poor people and vulnerable people, but people like you don't want to help them nor do you care about them other than as agenda, and you're okay with letting more people go poor and dying. THat's the problem with this country.

Prior to Trump cutting US corporate taxes.

American corporations paid the highest taxes in the world.

This places american corporations in the worst position to sustain tax hikes from a global markets perspective.

 

[kkck]

Universal healthcare is a droll, dysfunctional and inferior system, for reasons identical to government agencies systemitcally being barred from producing ventilators, cars or rockets as efficiently with comparable quality to the private sector. Healthcare markets are rigged to present a fairy tale illusion of socialism being a good system. A conclusion which does not exist in the real world aside from false narratives.

Government spending in the united states is disproportionately skewed towards defense spending due to america footing the bill for the military defense of europe, asia and other regions of the world who do not pay their fair share to defend their own borders.



Prior to Trump cutting US corporate taxes.

American corporations paid the highest taxes in the world.

This places american corporations in the worst position to sustain tax hikes from a global markets perspective.

You are essentially pretending canada, australia, a substantial part of europe along with a few other countries don't exist... You can make a case that universal healthcare systems aren't perfect, because nothing is, but they have been around for 80 years and work better than anything the US has had in... the entirety of its existence.

Except... in practice the corporate tax rate has not been that for a while. The US tax system is so absurdly complicated and riddled with loop holes that in practice the US simply has not been collecting that much from profitable corporations.

 

[Sanity Check]

You are essentially pretending canada, australia, a substantial part of europe along with a few other countries don't exist... You can make a case that universal healthcare systems aren't perfect, because nothing is, but they have been around for 80 years and work better than anything the US has had in... the entirety of its existence.

Except... in practice the corporate tax rate has not been that for a while. The US tax system is so absurdly complicated and riddled with loop holes that in practice the US simply has not been collecting that much from profitable corporations.

1. Monopolies are bad.
2. Governments are the largest and worst run monopolies.
3. Healthcare designed and run by the largest and worst run monopolies cannot be good healthcare.
x. (Universal healthcare is essentially social security btw which has been around forever)

The US tax system is as absurdly complicated and riddled with loopholes as the tax systems of other nations. It cancels out.

Trump achieving record low unemployment, coupled with record high job creation via tax cuts. Probably the best argument for high corporate taxes being a major bottleneck preventing businesses from hiring workers, creating jobs and doing other good for the US economy.

 

[kkck]

1. Monopolies are bad.
2. Governments are the largest and worst run monopolies.
3. Healthcare designed and run by the largest and worst run monopolies cannot be good healthcare.
x. (Universal healthcare is essentially social security btw which has been around forever)

The US tax system is as absurdly complicated and riddled with loopholes as the tax systems of other nations. It cancels out.

Trump achieving record low unemployment, coupled with record high job creation via tax cuts. Probably the best argument for high corporate taxes being a major bottleneck preventing businesses from hiring workers, creating jobs and doing other good for the US economy.

Ah, good old fashion pointless mumbo jumbo and fallacies... Setting aside how pointless the words you wrote are, the fact remains that most developed nations have universal health care systems that work. And have been working for decades. The systems aren't by any means perfect but countries like canada, netherlands, UK, germany and so many others have those systems, support them, and their people are largely better of for them. Even trump has praised Australia's system (though him doing that is comically incoherent with his policy lol).

Tax systems are not nearly as complicated in most other places as they are in the US.. Granted the US doesn't have a monopoly on loopholes but in most developed nations at least taxes are just... easy and straightforward.

Trump didn't achieve anything... The economy with him behaved largely the same as when he got it... until it didn't because he managed the pandemic like a saturday morning cartoon villain would (except the saturday morning cartoon villain would do it on purpose I suppose). Presidents have very little effect on the economy in general, their effect is usually limited to very specific things. Obama's effect on the economy began and ended with the bailouts.... Trump's effect on the economy is pretty much his mismanagement of the pandemic. Trump is so comically shameless about his claims at making a great economy (even though it was never as wonderful as he said) that he began claiming how wonderful he made it within the first months of his presidency... Even though it takes months or years to actually determine whether policy worked or not and its effects.

 

[M3J]

Prior to Trump cutting US corporate taxes.

American corporations paid the highest taxes in the world.

This places american corporations in the worst position to sustain tax hikes from a global markets perspective.

I know.

Doesn't change anything that I said. And no, it doesn't when American corps make tons of money and use loopholes to avoid paying taxes or reduce their taxes, even back before Trump. Even a non-American would know this.

You are essentially pretending canada, australia, a substantial part of europe along with a few other countries don't exist... You can make a case that universal healthcare systems aren't perfect, because nothing is, but they have been around for 80 years and work better than anything the US has had in... the entirety of its existence.

Except... in practice the corporate tax rate has not been that for a while. The US tax system is so absurdly complicated and riddled with loop holes that in practice the US simply has not been collecting that much from profitable corporations.

I know someone who received healthcare in the US and in UK, and the healthcare here nearly killed her and bankrupted her, while she was in much better hands in UK and didn't pay much or had to worry about that. On top of that, the doctors were better in the UK than in US as well, even if the waiting times weren't the best.

Among the "wealthy" nations, USA's healthcare seems to be among the worst.

 

[kkck]

I know someone who received healthcare in the US and in UK, and the healthcare here nearly killed her and bankrupted her, while she was in much better hands in UK and didn't pay much or had to worry about that. On top of that, the doctors were better in the UK than in US as well, even if the waiting times weren't the best.

Among the "wealthy" nations, USA's healthcare seems to be among the worst.

That's super specific though, I don't think that's a very common experience. The problem with US healthcare is access, not quality. Technology wise I would think the US is unarguably ahead of most european countries. Of course, the best technology is pointless if you can't afford it even by bankrupting yourself.

 

[M3J]

That's super specific though, I don't think that's a very common experience. The problem with US healthcare is access, not quality. Technology wise I would think the US is unarguably ahead of most european countries. Of course, the best technology is pointless if you can't afford it even by bankrupting yourself.

I'm sharing one person's experience, not saying that it's definitely like that for everyone. However, the common consensus is that USA's healthcare sucks and is inferior to other countries'. Quality also seems to be an issue among women of color and even Black men in USA as their pains get dismissed, or they're generally monitored by white standards.

 

[kkck]

I'm sharing one person's experience, not saying that it's definitely like that for everyone. However, the common consensus is that USA's healthcare sucks and is inferior to other countries'. Quality also seems to be an issue among women of color and even Black men in USA as their pains get dismissed, or they're generally monitored by white standards.

I would still frame that mostly (though obviously not entirely) as an access thing. The US definitely has better medicine and technology than pretty much any other country... If you can afford it. That's why people from outside the US fly there to get treated. What countries with functional universal health care do in the end is just provide a decent baseline coverage for everyone but it's not actually better than what you can get from the private sector (if you can afford it).