Wait Zeref has no feats of Planet busting. If he was planet buster. He could have destroyed Ishigar from files away and taken FH with him since Mavis is immortal and won't die.
Wait Zeref has no feats of Planet busting. If he was planet buster. He could have destroyed Ishigar from files away and taken FH with him since Mavis is immortal and won't die.
He is stated to scale to the Phoenix which can destroy the planet (or at least the surface), with FH he is universe level with NE which he was going to destroy the present reality to remake it to a new one
He is stated to scale to the Phoenix which can destroy the planet (or at least the surface), with FH he is universe level with NE which he was going to destroy the present reality to remake it to a new one
Destroying a timeline while going through timelapse is far different from doing it physically. His universe level punch was taken out by Natsu and their clash didn't even do building level damage.
Timelapse? What do you mean by that? I said with NE is at that level, besides, to create a new universe would require the energy/mass to do so, and Zeref has FH which is more than enough to do so.
The volume afterward obviously wasn't including Zeref and Acnologia. The manga has Zeref and the top Spriggans straight up admitting the entire Alvarez Empire can't beat Acnologia without Fairy Heart. The god dragons were stated to be around Acnologia's level, and thus stronger than Zeref. Honestly, the Wolfen God Seed alone would be able to stalemate Zeref so long as they aren't fighting on Aldoron's body.
Zeref did use Fairy Heart against Natsu. The magic to rewind time was Fairy Heart's power, and Natsu burned that too.
Alright then.... Planet wiping Zeref got beat by Natsu.
Okay, but Zeref still hasn't shown any faith that END's power could kill him, meaning that pretty much every claim that it could is simply something the fans made up.
It's implied quite a few times. Some Spriggans also knew of END's powers, like Invel and Dimaria. Invel was worried about the powers of END (which he obviously heard from Zeref), and hence wanted to use Gray to kill it.
Also, we saw END demonizing more and more as the fight between END and Gray progressed. Natsu was on the process of transforming, slowly but surely. We can't judge END's potential based on his fight with Gray (but it indeed did show big potential, as just a punch from it almost burned Erza's arms to crisp). To claim END, at his full power, would be Acno tier or even AF/Animus tier would be a stretch; but predicting it to be Zeref or August tier is pretty reasonable IMO,
Also, demons do have otherworldly powers. Can't the power of underworld/hell, somewhat counteract Zeref's powers? Mard did come up with a way to kill Zeref afterall, we can reasonably assume that high tier demons can come up with abilities to kill Zeref.
It's implied quite a few times. Some Spriggans also knew of END's powers, like Invel and Dimaria. Invel was worried about the powers of END (which he obviously heard from Zeref), and hence wanted to use Gray to kill it.
Also, we saw END demonizing more and more as the fight between END and Gray progressed. Natsu was on the process of transforming, slowly but surely. We can't judge END's potential based on his fight with Gray (but it indeed did show big potential, as just a punch from it almost burned Erza's arms to crisp). To claim END, at his full power, would be Acno tier or even AF/Animus tier would be a stretch; but predicting it to be Zeref or August tier is pretty reasonable IMO,
Also, demons do have otherworldly powers. Can't the power of underworld/hell, somewhat counteract Zeref's powers? Mard did come up with a way to kill Zeref afterall, we can reasonably assume that high tier demons can come up with abilities to kill Zeref.
Implied? Where? Yes, the Spriggans also knew of END's power. None of them have said that it could kill Zeref either. Not that it truly matters, because the only one that actually has an idea of what END's power is capable of is Zeref. And he simply never showed any interest in it.
Natsu would have died if the seeds had fully fused, so there's no guarantee that we would have seen a full transformation anyways. Besides, there's still a glaring lack of evidence that END, even at full transformation, could kill Zeref. Like I said, any version of END stronger than what we saw is speculation. Now I'm good for speculation within reason. But in order to kill Zeref, END would have to be stronger than Natsu with flames of savage emotions. That's not a reasonable level of hype given his feats, and lack of solid statements about his potential. I do agree that August level or even Zeref level could be a reasonable place to clock END's potential at.
Erza was fine. Like I said, she used the same arm to beat Irene's meteor and dragon form. Erza was also using an armor that offered zero defensive properties and she blocked with her bare hands. She would have taken even less damage, like none at all, blocking with her swords. Honestly, she inflicted more damage against Laxus using her enchanted swords than she took from blocking END and Gray's attacks.
I don't believe that Mard could kill Zeref either. Because Zeref didn't.
Can you really trust his mind set? We can only trust his subordinates who know if his backstory. If they said he was a threat then we should take their word for it. There was no guarantee that his other powers could kill Zeref too, at least with END that surpasses God Powers is more valid. Mard needed END to accomplish that, Erza was not unharmed, that was just stamina, not the same as durability (aka fine), there was no guarantee she wouldn take less damage had either of them stopped, only hurt more.
Implied? Where? Yes, the Spriggans also knew of END's power. None of them have said that it could kill Zeref either. Not that it truly matters, because the only one that actually has an idea of what END's power is capable of is Zeref. And he simply never showed any interest in it.
Natsu would have died if the seeds had fully fused, so there's no guarantee that we would have seen a full transformation anyways. Besides, there's still a glaring lack of evidence that END, even at full transformation, could kill Zeref. Like I said, any version of END stronger than what we saw is speculation. Now I'm good for speculation within reason. But in order to kill Zeref, END would have to be stronger than Natsu with flames of savage emotions. That's not a reasonable level of hype given his feats, and lack of solid statements about his potential. I do agree that August level or even Zeref level could be a reasonable place to clock END's potential at.
Erza was fine. Like I said, she used the same arm to beat Irene's meteor and dragon form. Erza was also using an armor that offered zero defensive properties and she blocked with her bare hands. She would have taken even less damage, like none at all, blocking with her swords. Honestly, she inflicted more damage against Laxus using her enchanted swords than she took from blocking END and Gray's attacks.
I don't believe that Mard could kill Zeref either. Because Zeref didn't.
Invel was worried that END might go on to kill Zeref, so there is that.
Zeref doesn't really care about dying at this point, he gave upon it and started focusing on time travel. Like I said before. Zeref was more likely interested in facing Natsu, not because Natsu would necessarily be stronger but because he's his brother and not some demon residing inside his body.
Not if Natsu chose to be demon (or am I wrong here?). He chose nothing, so the seeds both got destroyed and he remained human, but he probably would've become demon/dragon if he chose the respective seeds?
I'm not saying he would've conclusively killed Zeref. All I'm saying is that he had a non zero probability (the only others having it being Mavis and Mard Geer) of being able to kill Zeref, based on his hype. END doesn't necessarily need to be stronger than Natsu with savage flames to defeat Zeref (savage flames Natsu still can't kill Zeref). Savage flames Natsu one shotted FH Zeref. END was hyped to be strong enough to kill normal Zeref, that should be possible if he's on par or stronger than the DF Natsu who faced Zeref.
Yea opk, so you seem to agree that peak END can possibly be around Zeref by hype. Well, if END is Zeref level and has inherent ability to kill immortal beings, then that's all that is enough, right? END, even if he extreme diffs, can kill Zeref (potentially by hype), once he knocks him out
I believe Wendy healed her hands off screen. Yea, some parts of her cracks and burns were still visible, that just means she wasn't able to fully heal them. Erza's body >> her armours and weapons, we saw that against Laxus, they all break all the time, but not her body lol. Anyway, my point here is that partial END was significantly above Erza, a mere angry punch did that to her
I'm not saying it would've killed Zeref for sure. I'm saying it's possible. Zeref kiled Mard because Zeref acts irrationally all the time, he's retarded (literally) and does what he feels like doing at the time.
Can you really trust his mind set? We can only trust his subordinates who know if his backstory. If they said he was a threat then we should take their word for it. There was no guarantee that his other powers could kill Zeref too, at least with END that surpasses God Powers is more valid. Mard needed END to accomplish that, Erza was not unharmed, that was just stamina, not the same as durability (aka fine), there was no guarantee she wouldn take less damage had either of them stopped, only hurt more.
Yea, basically this. Zeref acts irrtionally all the time. His closest subordinate was really worried about END going to kill Zeref, I would trust his hudgement over Zeref because it's pretty much established at this point that almost nothing he (Zeref) does is based on any coherent logic
Invel was worried that END might go on to kill Zeref, so there is that.
Zeref doesn't really care about dying at this point, he gave upon it and started focusing on time travel. Like I said before. Zeref was more likely interested in facing Natsu, not because Natsu would necessarily be stronger but because he's his brother and not some demon residing inside his body.
Not if Natsu chose to be demon (or am I wrong here?). He chose nothing, so the seeds both got destroyed and he remained human, but he probably would've become demon/dragon if he chose the respective seeds?
I'm not saying he would've conclusively killed Zeref. All I'm saying is that he had a non zero probability (the other others having it being Mavis and Mard Geer) of being able to kill Zeref, based on his hype. END doesn't necessarily need to be stronger than Natsu with savage flames to defeat Zeref (savage flames Natsu still can't kill Zeref). Savage flames Natsu one shotted FH Zeref. END was hyped to be strong enough to kill normal Zeref, that should be possible if he's on par or stronger than the DF Natsu who faced Zeref.
Yea opk, so you seem to agree that peak END can possibly be around Zeref by hype. Well, if END is Zeref level and has inherent ability to kill immortal beings, then that's all that is enough, right? END, even if he extreme diffs, can kill Zeref (potentially by hype), once he knocks him out
I believe Wendy healed her hands off screen. Yea, some parts of her cracks and burns were still visible, that just means she wasn't able to fully heal them. Erza's body >> her armours and weapons, we saw that against Laxus, they all break all the time, but not her body lol. Anyway, my point here is that partial END was significantly above Erza, a mere angry punch did that to her
I'm not saying it would've killed Zeref for sure. I'm saying it's possible. Zeref kiled Mard because Zeref acts irrationally all the time, he's retarded (literally) and does what he feels like doing at the time.
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Yea, basically this. Zeref acts irrtionally all the time. His closest subordinate was really worried about END going to kill Zeref, I would trust his hudgement over Zeref because it's pretty much established at this point that almost nothing he (Zeref) does is based on any coherent logic
Invel never said END could kill Zeref. His exact words was that END was a hindrance. I mean, Invel thought he could beat END. He also thought Gray could beat END.
It was only when Igneel's power ran out that Zeref truly gave up on dying. Zeref's entire plan was for Igneel to train Natsu to become strong enough to kill him. He literally said that he just wanted Natsu to be strong enough to kill him when he sent him to be trained. Even the plan to stop Acnologia was secondary to that.
Natsu was only able to choose because he fell into a coma, and ventured inside his heart. If he's amped up on rage and conscious, how would he be able to venture inside his heart? This also goes both ways: If Natsu has to destroy the dragon seed in order to become a demon, I could just as easily argue that this would end up nerfing the overall form. I'm saying there's no solid evidence that END could kill Zeref, and that any claims that it can is mostly speculation. To this end, I haven't seen anything to dispute that. Sure, the probability might not be impossible at 0%. But I haven't seen anything to push it above 50% and into the realm of "likely" either.
Does END really possess a special ability to counter Zeref's immortality? He could move inside Dimaria's time stop because he had more power than a god, namely Chronos. Doesn't mean he has more power than Ankhseram.
There's no evidence that Wendy healed Erza's arms.
Zeref isn't irrational all the time, not anymore than Mavis was. Ankhseram's curse gives them bouts of contradictory thoughts, but they are rational for the vast majority of the time. Zeref's plan for to kill himself would have been something he thought over a long period of time. If you don't believe what Zeref is saying, then I don't see why anybody else would be a more reliable source of information. Nobody other than Zeref has had any interaction with END. So they would have had to gotten their information from Zeref. Let's for a moment pretend that Zeref told Invel that END could kill him. How do you know that Zeref wasn't being crazy when he said that? Now take a step back, and realize that....we don't actually have any evidence that this conversation even happened.
Invel never said END could kill Zeref. His exact words was that END was a hindrance. I mean, Invel thought he could beat END. He also thought Gray could beat END.
It was only when Igneel's power ran out that Zeref truly gave up on dying. Zeref's entire plan was for Igneel to train Natsu to become strong enough to kill him. He literally said that he just wanted Natsu to be strong enough to kill him when he sent him to be trained. Even the plan to stop Acnologia was secondary to that.
Natsu was only able to choose because he fell into a coma, and ventured inside his heart. If he's amped up on rage and conscious, how would he be able to venture inside his heart? This also goes both ways: If Natsu has to destroy the dragon seed in order to become a demon, I could just as easily argue that this would end up nerfing the overall form. I'm saying there's no solid evidence that END could kill Zeref, and that any claims that it can is mostly speculation. To this end, I haven't seen anything to dispute that. Sure, the probability might not be impossible at 0%. But I haven't seen anything to push it above 50% and into the realm of "likely" either.
Does END really possess a special ability to counter Zeref's immortality? He could move inside Dimaria's time stop because he had more power than a god, namely Chronos. Doesn't mean he has more power than Ankhseram.
There's no evidence that Wendy healed Erza's arms.
Zeref isn't irrational all the time, not anymore than Mavis was. Ankhseram's curse gives them bouts of contradictory thoughts, but they are rational for the vast majority of the time. Zeref's plan for to kill himself would have been something he thought over a long period of time. If you don't believe what Zeref is saying, then I don't see why anybody else would be a more reliable source of information. Nobody other than Zeref has had any interaction with END. So they would have had to gotten their information from Zeref. Let's for a moment pretend that Zeref told Invel that END could kill him. How do you know that Zeref wasn't being crazy when he said that? Now take a step back, and realize that....we don't actually have any evidence that this conversation even happened.
Invel wanted to try to kill END lol, maybe he thought he could kill him before he fully transformed. Invel knew that full power END would be big threat, which was why he wanted Gray to do it. He though Gray could do it because gray is a DeS
Nah, he gave upon dying long back. When he saw Igneel's powers, his hope rekindled for a few minutes and he went back to his plan.
Where does it say that Zeref wanted Igneel to make him strong enough to kill him? Not saying you're wrong, but you have a panel for it?
Maybe he would've been forced to choose eventually. Or since END was taking over, demon would've been the default choice. Idk. Yeah I agree it's only speculation, but reasonable one based on hype provided to us. Moreover, I bought up Mard's MM to show that demon magic doesn't obey conventional rules of Earthland since they're not from this world to begin with, this also points to likeliness of END being able to kill
Dimaria has nothing to do with it, I'm not using that as an argument (I agree that he moved in her timestop simply because he was stronger). I'm saying he might have some inherent ability to bypass just immortality. Why might he have some inherent ability? Because Zeref created him that way, since he wanted to die. Also because he's from underworld/hell; which potentially is, or is connected to, the realm of the dead (power of the dead argument)
He mostly acts irrationally, especially when he goes onto kill his allies (Hades, Mard, Invel etc). He feels annoyed and simply just kills them. He also says irrational stuff when he speaks in riddles (like wanting to face Natsu/END stuff, live/die etc). At least that was the impression I got from the dude. He's confusing AF
Why would I know that he wasn't being crazy when he spoke to Invel? Because he has no emotions towards any Spriggans, I expect emotionless Zeref to be the more rational Zeref. How else would Invel know of END's threat to Zeref? It's likely because Zeref told him.
Invel wanted to try to kill END lol, maybe he thought he could kill him before he fully transformed. Invel knew that full power END would be big threat, which was why he wanted Gray to do it. He though Gray could do it because gray is a DeS
Nah, he gave upon dying long back. When he saw Igneel's powers, his hope rekindled for a few minutes and he went back to his plan.
Where does it say that Zeref wanted Igneel to make him strong enough to kill him? Not saying you're wrong, but you have a panel for it?
Maybe he would've been forced to choose eventually. Or since END was taking over, demon would've been the default choice. Idk. Yeah I agree it's only speculation, but reasonable one based on hype provided to us. Moreover, I bought up Mard's MM to show that demon magic doesn't obey conventional rules of Earthland since they're not from this world to begin with, this also points to likeliness of END being able to kill
Dimaria has nothing to do with it, I'm not using that as an argument (I agree that he moved in her timestop simply because he was stronger). I'm saying he might have some inherent ability to bypass just immortality. Why might he have some inherent ability? Because Zeref created him that way, since he wanted to die. Also because he's from underworld/hell; which potentially is, or is connected to, the realm of the dead (power of the dead argument)
He mostly acts irrationally, especially when he goes onto kill his allies (Hades, Mard, Invel etc). He feels annoyed and simply just kills them. He also says irrational stuff when he speaks in riddles (like wanting to face Natsu/END stuff, live/die etc). At least that was the impression I got from the dude. He's confusing AF
Why would I know that he wasn't being crazy when he spoke to Invel? Because he has no emotions towards any Spriggans, I expect emotionless Zeref to be the more rational Zeref. How else would Invel know of END's threat to Zeref? It's likely because Zeref told him.
Again, Invel's exact words was that END was a hindrance. He didn't say that it could kill Zeref.
For when Zeref said that he wanted Igneel to train Natsu?
That's not really a choice then. Again, why wouldn't the seeds fusing simply just....you know, kill Natsu?
I mean, momento mori didn't even kill Gray when he demonized. So like, I'm kind of with Zeref when he said that it can't kill him.
Okay, but....What ability does END have that allows him to bypass immortality? In order to actually kill Zeref, you need 2 things. One, you need to be strong enough to actually physically beat Zeref. Two, you need to have some sort of special property that allows you to bypass Zeref's immortality. Now I'm not sure I buy that END meets either criteria, but let's say there's a 50% chance on each of these claims being true. Doesn't that, just by the way probabilities work, means that there is only a 25% chance that END can actually kill Zeref?
Zeref has no emotions for Mard Geer either. And although he was mad at Hades, he was still completely rational in his explanations there. Again, if Zeref indeed told Invel that END could kill him, what makes you think that's more reliable than words that Zeref says onscreen? And then, what makes you think Zeref told Invel that in the first place? Because, in the end, all Invel said about END was that he was a hindrance.
Power isn't what you need to kill Zeref, according to Zeref Acno can't kill him either, and of course Zeref hasn't found a way to kill himself with his own power for 400 years, then there is also him not getting Igneel to kill him. Igneel's "power of the dead" stuff could do the job, despite it being noticeably weaker than Dragon Force Natsu and obviously weaker than Acnologia and Igneel.
Seeds merging was causing Natsu to die, but it seems like to me that while Natsu is in his END state it is him actively choosing the demon seed, giving in its desire to kill Zeref. It was Natsu's doubt about what he was that was making them fuse, but as END it didn't seem like there was any doubt in his mind.
As for END itself, i don't see a reason for why it needs to progress his demonization much more than it already had, if it even had more to progress. Base Natsu was already a near equal match for Zeref, END should be able to do the job providing its at least FDKM level and has the same work around that the "power of the dead" has, which it should, since it was literally a magic created to bring back the dead.
