One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[I Am Atomic]

I understand that but getting all angry and flustered about what other people are going to think in terms of PL? Seems pointless.

Fair point. Tbh I stopped watching anime. The overall arc might make it clear in the end.

P.s. Katakuri vs Snakeman animation was awesome though

 

[McNuss]

Literally who cares about those people think? Are you reading this series for them or what?

I wouldn't have spent a decade on Manga boards if I wasn't interest in discussing about the series that I like.

These Zoro and Sanji discussions take up a major chunk of all debates in the One Piece community. And I suspect the anime team is fully aware, and that is why they completely blow up these characters. The hype and controversy that they create by adding scenes like this means ¥¥¥ for them.

I don't think expanding fights is wrong, but for the majority of the anime, they at least did it roughly in Oda's style. This has nothing to do with One Piece anymore. We also had a similar case with Zoro vs Killer, which the anime flashed up to the maximum, completely altering the style from the Manga.

For me, One Piece is art. Due to that, I will always criticize cheap cashgrabs such as this.

 

[King Moe]

Kaido got cut by Kinemon wasn't expecting his ability to cut through fire. There's not much more to it.


That's one weird scene for the anime to include.

Sanji failed to defeat Page One, but he took down X Drake who is even stronger without the Raid Suit...

Didn't really failed as Page One didn't return after that, so think miscommunication on scene with Oda as Oda never mention him back until Fire Festival in weeks later in the series. Plus regardless PO still lost the fight since he couldn't overpower Sanji at all just the same with Drake. This pretty much confirmed he is more above T6H and more YC lvl given developments in manga and him with his ongoing fight with King.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 27, 2020 ---

Where do you get Jozu and Vista being stronger than Mihawk from ? Neither of them landed a single hit on him or did any damage.

Franky damaged Big Mom.

Yes, Jozu blocked one attack from Mihawk but Jozu’s body is as hard as Seastone which BM was canonically unable to break so he’d easily block an attack from Big Mom or Kaido as well. They’d have to use their fire attacks to try and burn him through his diamond skin. Or use internal destruction Haki if they have it.

Neither did Mihawk especially one of his strongest slash was block effortlessly by Jozu.

Big Mom is a known tanker, what will that do? Don't think that really hurt at all given she been hit with worse compare to that.

Pretty sure that isn't the case at all as if Jozu was really that durable, it would mean he stronger than even Whitebeard which hardly isn't and you forget Haki will nullify it's defensive nature given it's DF' not his natural body being that strong. Though they can break it apart even without it given we seen YCs as they aren't above compare to Admirals and Yonkos.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2020 ---

You sound bitter bro... relax
No one’s said Sanji is YC level. Luffy that beat cracker wasn’t a YC level fighter... its growth in battle.

Imagine crying cos the anime expanded that Sanji could go toe to toe with someone of P1 calibre.
He didn’t defeat Drake.. he floored him so he could get away. That way less damage than P1 took lol

He still defeated Drake as Full Zoan is most durable state for DF user of Ancient Zoan, so to knock him out like that without RS shows Sanji is strong and capable fighter without RS. He doesn't need it for sake of power since his power is still his own.

 

[M3J]

I believe that it did say he couldn't. It's why they couldn't execute him (they tried to but every attempt of execution failed), why he couldn't kill himself, and why Oden's scar was made such a big deal of.

The Scabbards (even those that didn't travel through time and that have had 20 less years to train. Those for who this fight is just like half a year after they saw Oden be defeated) have first shown to be able to pierce Kaido's human body. One can argue that he was drunk, distracted and overconfident. Now we have a sobered up Kaido in dragon form throwing a special technique with the intent to kill at them, and Kin'emon flawlessly cutting Kaido's attack in two and even damaging his dragon body from a distance.

The only thing I'm wondering is why he wasn't executed by an admiral. Akainu would have been pleased to help. Oda needs to explain many things.

But Kaidou does take damage, even if it barely affects him. He felt Luffy's punches and apparently almost lost to Oden, and as you mentioned, had his body damaged by the Scabbards. Seems like it takes tons of damage to take him down.

Yeah, there's no reason for Marines/WG to not let the admirals or fleet admiral execute Kaidou, especially as he was part of the Rocks pirate. Also odd that he's free despite being arrested multiple times, but there was no mention of him ever breaking out of Impel Down

 

[LadyVados]

it would mean he stronger than even Whitebeard which hardly isn't and you forget Haki will nullify it's defensive nature given it's DF' not his natural body being that strong. Though they can break it apart even without it

1. WB has internal vibrations via his DF so he should be able to beat Jozu using them.

2. Mihawk wasn’t using Haki IIRC

3. Big Mom wouldnot be able to break it apart. She is clearly not strong enough to break apart seastone which is as hard as diamond. I agree Kaido and BM could beat Jozu easily but they’d have to use Boro Breath/Prometheus to burn him. Physical attacks just woundn’t work.

I think Aokiji is just as strong if not stronger than BM and Kaido and he could only beat Jozu by freezing him through his diamond armour. His physical attacks just weren’t enough. I’m pretty sure partisans or Ice Saber would F up Kaido but he didn’t even try to use them against Jozu because he knew they would be useless (or he used them off screen but they didn’t do anything) so he had to freeze him through his armour to beat him.

 

[King Moe]

1. WB has internal vibrations via his DF so he should be able to beat Jozu using them.

2. Mihawk wasn’t using Haki IIRC

3. Big Mom wouldnot be able to break it apart. She is clearly not strong enough to break apart seastone which is as hard as diamond. I agree Kaido and BM could beat Jozu easily but they’d have to use Boro Breath/Prometheus to burn him. Physical attacks just woundn’t work.

I think Aokiji is just as strong if not stronger than BM and Kaido and he could only beat Jozu by freezing him through his diamond armour. His physical attacks just weren’t enough.

I mean he couldn't destroy the design wall with his powers, so by your logic he won't beat Jozu either, which again is not true at all.

Mihawk's sword is Black Blade, it has Haki on it, so he again couldn't get the job done on it.

3. Idk about that as their feats show they are more capable than they are if you mean when she was younger, I can agree, but doubt that while being older.

Ehhh...Idk about that as Admirals are still below Yonkos, but not too far, but not too close either especially fight with Whitebeard vs Akainu shows and that was still nerf WB going in. If Jozu was that unstoppable with Diamond he would be much stronger to handle big top tiers, but couldn't especially one with physical force as wouldn't be surprise on those who can break diamond themselves.

 

[Nie Li]

Mihawk's sword is Black Blade, it has Haki on it, so he again couldn't get the job done on it.

There's nothing to indicate that just wielding a black blade makes every single attack haki-imbued.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 27, 2020 ---

I mean he couldn't destroy the design wall with his powers, so by your logic he won't beat Jozu either, which again is not true at all.

WB failed to destroy the walls because they were made out of Wapometal, that by its characteristics is reistant to shockwaves. A more solid material like diamond may ironically be more vulnerable to his DF.





And people say there's no way Franky's wapometal tank can take a hit from BM.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2020 ---

Also, Jozu being more durable than even Whitebeard wouldn't mean that he's stronger than him.

Oven was officially confirmed as the sturdiest and more durable of BM's sons, yet we all know Katakuri is the strongest out of them, simply because it's not all about being the most durable. There's more to each character skillset.

 

[King Moe]

There's nothing to indicate that just wielding a black blade makes every single attack haki-imbued.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 27, 2020 ---

WB failed to destroy the walls because they were made out of Wapometal, that by its characteristics is reistant to shockwaves. A more solid material like diamond may ironically be more vulnerable to his DF.





And people say there's no way Franky's wapometal tank can take a hit from BM.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2020 ---

Also, Jozu being more durable than even Whitebeard wouldn't mean that he's stronger than him.

Oven was officially confirmed as the sturdiest and more durable of BM's sons, yet we all know Katakuri is the strongest out of them, simply because it's not all about being the most durable. There's more to each character skillset.

Wasn't stated Black Blades are naturally imbued with Haki, so you don't have to show your adding it if your sword already have it on it's being?

So you would say Diamond is weaker to compare to Wapometal?

I mean I have to see as Whitebeard even in his nerfed state was durable guy to keep fighting for long hours in that war.

That is actually true now that I think about it, but still wouldn't count out Katakuri's on his durability given his fight he shown in many levels.

 

[Nie Li]

Wasn't stated Black Blades are naturally imbued with Haki, so you don't have to show your adding it if your sword already have it on it's being?

No. That was never stated. We know close to nothing of Black Blades. It was implied that them becoming like that is related to being wielded by an extremely skilled armament haki user, and that becoming black blades upgrades them by one grade, but that doesn't mean that they become "constant-haki". It could be the case, but it has never been mentioned.

So you would say Diamond is weaker to compare to Wapometal?

What I say is that Wapometal is more resistant to vibrations (and that's what Whitebeard's DF is), which is what I understood from back then. Not necessarily more resistant to blunt hits or cuts.

I mean I have to see as Whitebeard even in his nerfed state was durable guy to keep fighting for long hours in that war.

That is actually true now that I think about it, but still wouldn't count out Katakuri's on his durability given his fight he shown in many levels.

Whitebeard resisted tons of damage, but he received many injuries that I just don't think they could have damaged Jozu, like Squard's stab, which is why I think Jozu is sturdier than him, yet of course I don't believe Jozu would beat Whitebeard in a fight.[/QUOTE]

 

[Pirate Queen]

Drake or Sanji haven't done much in the manga, so their strength is not 100% clear...

That said, it does seem a bit inconsistent.

As I already mentioned, Sanji couldn't finish Page One, but defeated Drake who is even stronger without the Raid Suit.

And this very week chapter has Drake fighting Zoro. In the context, Drake is trying to form an alliance and only wants to talk, while Zoro think of him as an enemy and is fighting him seriously. Doesn't that imply that Drake could handle Zoro?

I think all SuperNova are comparable outside of Luffy who has proven to be far above any of the others.

The chapter did seem to suggest Drake can handle Zoro, but of course neither went all out.

Its like the situation with Kyoshiro. Zoro was on the attack and Kyoshiro simply prevented him from going past.

Its a tough thing to powerscale for sure.

In my supernova tier list I place XDrake above Zoro and I haven't seen much to change that, YET.

 

[King Moe]

No. That was never stated. We know close to nothing of Black Blades. It was implied that them becoming like that is related to being wielded by an extremely skilled armament haki user, and that becoming black blades upgrades them by one grade, but that doesn't mean that they become "constant-haki". It could be the case, but it has never been mentioned.


What I say is that Wapometal is more resistant to vibrations (and that's what Whitebeard's DF is), which is what I understood from back then. Not necessarily more resistant to blunt hits or cuts.


Whitebeard resisted tons of damage, but he received many injuries that I just don't think they could have damaged Jozu, like Squard's stab, which is why I think Jozu is sturdier than him, yet of course I don't believe Jozu would beat Whitebeard in a fight.

[/QUOTE]

Feel like it's granted as if it been used so much Haki made it black, then it's kinda presume blades are naturally given Haki about them without the user putting to much effort depending of course. Regardless doesn't change the fact on it didn't help on Mihawk's feats in Marineford as comparing performance with deep top tiers, he really isn't up there even if we use 'he was holding back' as most were holding back themselves as well.

I guess in a way true on that, but feel like if WB wasn't nerfed, he would have destroy it through more. I mean if it's talk about defense on if attack will pierce you through, guess I give Jozu the edge given his Diamond body, but feel like many top tiers around have Haki, so could bypass and damage him still or even power through in breaking through his Diamond body as don't think it's completely without it's own weaknesses. I do agree on Whitebeard on amount of damage he took, but he still tank them and kept fighting for many hours before reaching his limit though.

 

[LadyVados]

Haki, so could bypass and damage him still or even power through in breaking through his Diamond body as don't think it's completely without it's own weaknesses.

Bypass with internal destruction Haki or elemental powers ? Yes of course.

Break through the diamond body itself ? Hell no.

Again Big Mom was not able to break seastone.

 

[King Moe]

Bypass with internal destruction Haki or elemental powers ? Yes of course.

Break through the diamond body itself ? Hell no.

Again Big Mom was not able to break seastone.

Pretty sure she capable at this point in her Prime.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

I understand that but getting all angry and flustered about what other people are going to think in terms of PL? Seems pointless.

Lmao you would be surprised to see how angry people can be over PL discussion. I think you can even find some here

 

[Nie Li]

Feel like it's granted as if it been used so much Haki made it black, then it's kinda presume blades are naturally given Haki about them without the user putting to much effort depending of course. Regardless doesn't change the fact on it didn't help on Mihawk's feats in Marineford as comparing performance with deep top tiers, he really isn't up there even if we use 'he was holding back' as most were holding back themselves as well.

What you say about black blades is 100% a blind assumption. It has never been suggested to work that way.

Please stop with it the topic of Mihawk on this thread.

I guess in a way true on that, but feel like if WB wasn't nerfed, he would have destroy it through more. I mean if it's talk about defense on if attack will pierce you through, guess I give Jozu the edge given his Diamond body, but feel like many top tiers around have Haki, so could bypass and damage him still or even power through in breaking through his Diamond body as don't think it's completely without it's own weaknesses. I do agree on Whitebeard on amount of damage he took, but he still tank them and kept fighting for many hours before reaching his limit though.

We can speculate about Whitebeard's prime, but we don't have any real data on it. Honestly, after how Kaido's durability was hyped and the reality we have been experiencing now, I don't think Whitebeard, who has never been hyped for his durability, was sturdier than Jozu even on his prime.

His fighting style is just different. He's been said to be have been faster and have better reactions in his prime, and he has a weapon to stop attacks, instead of tanking them directly on his body like Jozu. Jozu has the diamond fruit that I doubt is immediately bypassed by haki, + his own haki to further increase his durabiliy. For all we know, he could easily be the most durable character in the series.

Durability as in "ability to tank attacks without taking damage". Whitebeard can withstand much damage and thus survive many attacks, like he did at Marineford, but he doesn't withstand them without damage, and I bet he didn't on his prime either.

 

[LadyVados]

Pretty sure she capable at this point in her Prime.

Current Big Mom was unable to break Seastone.

 

[kkck]

By all appearances no one in the manga has ever displayed the sheer power required to actually even slightly chip kairoseki... It's why it's effective in impel down level 6 in spite of the fact that prisoners there are absurdly dangerous. Back at impel down we saw it contain even jinbe, a non devil fruit user. Big mom was also effectively contained by it (though as a devil fruit user it'd weaken her). Oden was a nigh yonko level fighter and he was also presumable contained by kairoseki shackles. Overall it's fair to say that kairoseki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone. I don't think even jozu approaches kairoseki in terms of endurance. That would make the guy literally invulnerable to pretty much any form of physical damage, with or without haki. I suppose he could be thrown around but he wouldn't exactly take damage from it.

 

[King Moe]

What you say about black blades is 100% a blind assumption. It has never been suggested to work that way.

Please stop with it the topic of Mihawk on this thread.


We can speculate about Whitebeard's prime, but we don't have any real data on it. Honestly, after how Kaido's durability was hyped and the reality we have been experiencing now, I don't think Whitebeard, who has never been hyped for his durability, was sturdier than Jozu even on his prime.

His fighting style is just different. He's been said to be have been faster and have better reactions in his prime, and he has a weapon to stop attacks, instead of tanking them directly on his body like Jozu. Jozu has the diamond fruit that I doubt is immediately bypassed by haki, + his own haki to further increase his durabiliy. For all we know, he could easily be the most durable character in the series.

Durability as in "ability to tank attacks without taking damage". Whitebeard can withstand much damage and thus survive many attacks, like he did at Marineford, but he doesn't withstand them without damage, and I bet he didn't on his prime either.

'Blind' yet manga states it takes Haki to make Black Blades. I think your 100% false narrative on your side. It's possible theory and actually could be canon as why would it lose Haki effect when it was the source of making Black Blade?

I don't mind stopping the talk another time, but don't be so defensive over opinions as you seems to get heated if someone disagree with you.

Durability is there for both even from cuts and hits they take as they are tanking which shows their durability is on another level. Taking damage doesn't make your durability look weak if you are able to walk if off and keep fighting for many hours, so wouldn't say that hyped was false on Kaido and doubtful on Whitebeard. Plus in Kaido's defense, he isn't trying as he likes tanking damage for living given he choose to jump from Sky Island all the way to the ground, but still rise up and defeat his enemies with ease.

Haki won't mean much for Jozu if his enemies are stronger as Haki can damage him if there was greater to overcome him. I doubt Jozu doesn't take damage at all as he fights as who be seen as biggest threat around, but he wasn't shown as much concern as deep to compare to Whitebeard. Pretty show there are deep top tiers who can break his Diamond body as doubt Oda will let someone like that without weaknesses.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2020 ---

Current Big Mom was unable to break Seastone.

Isn't it mention Seastone takes away your strength if your DF user, so might be because of that, but she looks pretty calm and fine when in presence of the Kaido and his YCs without feeling like she is helpless with that on. Could be messing around with them if she really wanted to break out.

 

[Nie Li]

'Blind' yet manga states it takes Haki to make Black Blades. I think your 100% false narrative on your side. It's possible theory and actually could be canon as why would it lose Haki effect when it was the source of making Black Blade?

Because haki would wear out, it wouldn't last forever on the edge. Haki always comes from a living being, per definition. It's an unlikely theory, but it doesn't matter if it's likely or not: it's just a theory, so it cannot be used as a point in a different debate.

I don't mind stopping the talk another time, but don't be so defensive over opinions as you seems to get heated if someone disagree with you.

Thank you for your random concern, but telling you to not use your headcanon as a plotpoint is not being defensive. Neither is telling you to drop a topic that has already been exhausted.

Durability is there for both even from cuts and hits they take as they are tanking which shows their durability is on another level. Taking damage doesn't make your durability look weak if you are able to walk if off and keep fighting for many hours, so wouldn't say that hyped was false on Kaido and doubtful on Whitebeard. Plus in Kaido's defense, he isn't trying as he likes tanking damage for living given he choose to jump from Sky Island all the way to the ground, but still rise up and defeat his enemies with ease.

Haki won't mean much for Jozu if his enemies are stronger as Haki can damage him if there was greater to overcome him. I doubt Jozu doesn't take damage at all as he fights as who be seen as biggest threat around, but he wasn't shown as much concern as deep to compare to Whitebeard. Pretty show there are deep top tiers who can break his Diamond body as doubt Oda will let someone like that without weaknesses.

Why would they be concerned about Jozu?

What I'm telling you is that Jozu has higher durability than Whitebeard, but I also specified that this does not mean that he's stronger nor more dangerous than him. It's only a single stat and raw durability isn't everything.

 

[King Moe]

Because haki would wear out, it wouldn't last forever on the edge. Haki always comes from a living being, per definition. It's an unlikely theory, but it doesn't matter if it's likely or not: it's just a theory, so it cannot be used as a point in a different debate.


Thank you for your random concern, but telling you to not use your headcanon as a plotpoint is not being defensive. Neither is telling you to drop a topic that has already been exhausted.


Why would they be concerned about Jozu?

What I'm telling you is that Jozu has higher durability than Whitebeard, but I also specified that this does not mean that he's stronger nor more dangerous than him. It's only a single stat and raw durability isn't everything.

Again it's most possible theory and while true Haki effect could go away if original user is no longer holding it, but if another individual with Haki can still give it natural effect. We have to wait and see on Black Blades on how they work more, but it's not 'impossible' canon theory knowing we know how Black Blades are made.

Don't use 'headcannons'. That's against the rules nowadays. If you can't take this in calm approach, then don't try debating in emotions and talk in calm nature. If so, don't act aggressively when we speak as just because I disagree your points and say my piece, isn't me coming at you with anger or upset the same way.

If he supposedly have hardest durability of all, they should be worry on taking him down naturally. I guess I can see that, but still don't think his DF is without weakness to how to damage the Diamond though especially in the certain areas.