Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2020] - Discussion and ToC Talk

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Shinuki no Reborn

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MANGAHELPERS "TOC" POLL ISSUE #51 - VOTING!​

The poll for issue #51 is now open, vote for your favorite chapters of the week clicking HERE!

Alongside the release of Sakamoto Days, the extra series this week are:

-Dragon Ball Super 66
-Boruto: Naruto Next Generations 52
-Ghost Reaper Girl 10


Good Votes!
 
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Halloween

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Moderator Notice:
Henceforth, I will be deleting posts that complain about Weekly Shonen Jump having too many/not enough gag/battle/exorcism/sports/etc series.

These posts are not insightful, and do not meaningfully contribute to this thread. Also, this decision is not up for discussion, so posts discussing this decision will also be deleted.~ Halloween
 
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Ryuusei

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呪 僕 O マ ブ S C D 破 C B 夜 C 僕 あ 灼 ぼ チ 高 ア 森 A 仄 ぼ 次号カラー ヒロアカ アンデラ 夜桜 約ネバ 道産子 GIGA 岸本先生が描くコラボポスター 爆豪クリアファイル
Jujutsu Kaisen (Cover & LCP)
My Hero Academia
One Piece
Mashle
Black Clover
Sakamoto Days (CP)
Dr. Stone
Magu-chan: God of Destruction (CP)
Build King
Mission: Yozakura Family
Me & Roboco
Ayakashi Triangle (CP)
Shakunetsu no Niraikanai
We Never Learn
Chainsaw Man
Koukousei Kazoku
Undead Unluck
Moriking
Agravity Boys
Honomieru Shounen
Bokura no Ketsumei

Issue #1
Cover & LCP: My Hero Academia
CP: Undead Unluck, Mission: Yozakura Family, The Promised Neverland, Dosanko Gyaru wa Namaramenkoi

GIGA Preview
Collab poster by Kishimoto
Bakugou clear file
 
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WyldViolet

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Toriyama was claimed to have had involvement in GT at the time as well when the extent was just some character designs.
Even if he contributed a bit more for Super, Toriyama's "supervision" over both GT and Super is largely superficial.
 

savethecat

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Toriyama was claimed to have had involvement in GT at the time as well when the extent was just some character designs.
Even if he contributed a bit more for Super, Toriyama's "supervision" over both GT and Super is largely superficial.
Toriyama is credited as being the sole writer for Dragon Ball Super Broly’s Story and Screenplay(which most ppl agree is the best DB thing since the end of the original series), so it seems that was genuinely created by him.

But this is correct for at least the majority of Super.
Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F seem to be more legitimate collaborative efforts involving him, rather than just him working on it by himself.

And everything post Resurrection F were his ideas, however he didn’t write Scripts or Screenplays for the most part. He basically just gave bullet points of what’ll happen, and let them fill in the gaps.

The current DBS seems to be the first thing where Toriyama just isn’t involved at all though
 

Franz

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But I think there is a clear difference in Toriyama’s writing, and Toyotaro’s writing
But why, Toriyama still writes?

Now he doesn't care anymore, he collects the royalities and off he goes.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Toriyama was claimed to have had involvement in GT at the time as well when the extent was just some character designs.
And GT was considered canon for years before SUper.
Nothing prevents Toriyama from waking up one day and saying "Do you know it's there? SUper is no longer canon":
 

savethecat

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But why, Toriyama still writes?

Now he doesn't care anymore, he collects the royalities and off he goes.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



And GT was considered canon for years before SUper.
Nothing prevents Toriyama from waking up one day and saying "Do you know it's there? SUper is no longer canon":
Going into extreme depth would be getting off topic.

However my argument isn’t “Toyotaro’s Writing Bad, Toriyama’s writing good”.

DBS isn’t very good in general imo

However, even if Battle Of Gods, for Exp, isn’t very good, it feels like a natural continuation to the franchise. At worst, it’s just feels like a mediocre story, but from Toriyama himself. I could legitimately see the story being a part of the original manga, had it not end.

Super following that has hints of a Toriyama story. Which makes sense because he only provided a grocery list of bullet point story elements, and not an actual script to the story. It’s bogged down by “Fan-Fiction”y elements do to the cooperate level involvement in the scripts to sell merch.

Everything about the behind the scenes info of the Dragon Ball renaissance suggests that Toriyama came on board, but progressively became less and less involved as Super ran(except when he came back to completely write Broly)

The ToP arc is where we start to see Toei, and Toyotaro getting the most involved and take over more.
- Toyotaro providing a good portion, if not most, of the original character designs for the first time
- Toei throwing in the Kale tone a female version of Broly

Again, my argument is that isn’t “Good Vs Not Good”.

It’s thar the less Involvement Toriyama has with it, the more it starts to become a cooperate shell of the original series, and the more it because a high budget fanfic.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

That’s not including the writing faults in recent arcs where characters are written completely out of character. Toriyama has his faults, but he keeps the characters consistent

Toyotaro being caught multiple times plagiarizing art. And not only rehashing the exact same plot elements from the original series, but tracing artwork from panels of the original manga.
 

ginsenjou

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I think Yozakura and Agravity boys are not so popular as to appear in this preview.
I wonder what they plan to do with Yozakura. AB will get axed soon (though it might avoid cancellation again if the newbies' sales are way worse). The sales have improved but not enough to be in GIGA I guess
 

Stivie

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I wonder what they plan to do with Yozakura. AB will get axed soon (though it might avoid cancellation again if the newbies' sales are way worse). The sales have improved but not enough to be in GIGA I guess
Volume 5 of Yozakura will come out in November, which in theory will be a weak month.
have:
Dr stone,
Haikyuu's final volume,
bone collection
Roboko
Magu
Shakunetsu

Even though Yozakura is behind Haikyuu and Dr. stone, I find it complicated that those behind newbies sell more than he does.
 

tirakai

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It's hard to imagine them getting rid of Yozakura any time soon at this point. It's solidly in the 30k club at this point which we know is enough for a full run in modern jump, and it still gets some good ToC placements, so unless we suddenly get 8 Mashle-level successes or better in a row I think there'll always be enough flops to keep it going.

Especially considering how long Agravity Boys is lasting as perma-bottom while also selling maybe a third of the copies Yozakura does. I doubt it'll ever get big, but as long as volumes don't drop in sales I can picture it hanging around as a low-mid tier series for another couple years to end naturally.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Would be nice to see Yozakura get the cover at some point, the volumes and colour pages are are often really good. Though I guess it's probably not likely to get one until it potentially hits its second anniversary.
 

rg24

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Going into extreme depth would be getting off topic.

However my argument isn’t “Toyotaro’s Writing Bad, Toriyama’s writing good”.

DBS isn’t very good in general imo

However, even if Battle Of Gods, for Exp, isn’t very good, it feels like a natural continuation to the franchise. At worst, it’s just feels like a mediocre story, but from Toriyama himself. I could legitimately see the story being a part of the original manga, had it not end.

Super following that has hints of a Toriyama story. Which makes sense because he only provided a grocery list of bullet point story elements, and not an actual script to the story. It’s bogged down by “Fan-Fiction”y elements do to the cooperate level involvement in the scripts to sell merch.

Everything about the behind the scenes info of the Dragon Ball renaissance suggests that Toriyama came on board, but progressively became less and less involved as Super ran(except when he came back to completely write Broly)

The ToP arc is where we start to see Toei, and Toyotaro getting the most involved and take over more.
- Toyotaro providing a good portion, if not most, of the original character designs for the first time
- Toei throwing in the Kale tone a female version of Broly

Again, my argument is that isn’t “Good Vs Not Good”.

It’s thar the less Involvement Toriyama has with it, the more it starts to become a cooperate shell of the original series, and the more it because a high budget fanfic.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

That’s not including the writing faults in recent arcs where characters are written completely out of character. Toriyama has his faults, but he keeps the characters consistent

Toyotaro being caught multiple times plagiarizing art. And not only rehashing the exact same plot elements from the original series, but tracing artwork from panels of the original manga.
Toriyama make all the big point of the story, from Battle of the God till now, then the anime or manga fill the gaps like you say. That is way some things change but then beginning and ending and big part is the same. Toriyama had way bigger influence in the manga, every page is supervised and corrected by him, there is a bunch of example in the vols where they show the corrections.
 

animeexpert

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Talk about a bad take... I don’t come on here often, but I thought this place was largely devoid of the haughty arrogant know it all types that supposedly plague Twitter. I say supposedly because I don’t use Twitter, I only know hearsay. But it seems toxicity runs rampant everywhere. And I don’t see how Boruto ruined Kishi’s reputation. He created Naruto. No matter what happens, the fact will remain that he created one of the biggest juggernauts in the medium. Toriyama is doing fine. I don’t think Kishi has anything to worry about. Though, I can imagine he must’ve felt a bit sad after getting a passion project of sorts of his cancelled. I’ll never understand S8’s cancellation. I can only imagine it had too many people out for it from the start, with people (both fans and not of Naruto) not wanting it to become as big as Naruto. Ever since it’s left, I’ve found no enjoyment at all in the magazine. I’ve actually kinda just fell off of anime and the like entirety after that. Here’s hoping another series I enjoy pops up soon. Though, it seems unlikely with the direction the magazine is going in.
Its shit. The end.
 

NeeNeen

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He’s a youtuber, but very reliable with news related to Dragon Ball, and isn’t known to BS info. Hes even publicly friends with people involved with the series and has done interviews on his channel
You mean the same youtuber who was 100% convinced the DBS anime would be returning in July/August 2019 because several inside sources had told him so?

Yeah...

(Don't get me wrong, I like his channel. He's very knowledgable about the series. But I'm not just gonna take his word for what's happening inside Toriyama's private writing room.)

Also, in the post of the current arc, it clearly seems like Toyotaro is stating that his “collaboration” with Toriyama is just Toriyama reading and approving his story ideas. “I’ve been getting a lot of praise from him”, which seems to just be a similar process as Boruto. New writer is writing the series, with the original writing supervising and giving him input and advice
That's how it always worked. Toriyama provides bullet points covering the big plot lines of the story, Toyotaro/TOEI fill in the details, then Toriyama checks what they did and makes some changes if needed.




Toriyama is credited as being the sole writer for Dragon Ball Super Broly’s Story and Screenplay(which most ppl agree is the best DB thing since the end of the original series), so it seems that was genuinely created by him.

But this is correct for at least the majority of Super.
Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F seem to be more legitimate collaborative efforts involving him, rather than just him working on it by himself.

And everything post Resurrection F were his ideas, however he didn’t write Scripts or Screenplays for the most part. He basically just gave bullet points of what’ll happen, and let them fill in the gaps.

The current DBS seems to be the first thing where Toriyama just isn’t involved at all though
???
Toriyama is also credited as being the sole writer for the current Dragon Ball Super arc.


How did you come to the conclusion that this is the first thing he isn't involved in?
 

savethecat

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You mean the same youtuber who was 100% convinced the DBS anime would be returning in July/August 2019 because several inside sources had told him so?

Yeah...

(Don't get me wrong, I like his channel. He's very knowledgable about the series. But I'm not just gonna take his word for what's happening inside Toriyama's private writing room.)


That's how it always worked. Toriyama provides bullet points covering the big plot lines of the story, Toyotaro/TOEI fill in the details, then Toriyama checks what they did and makes some changes if needed.





???
Toriyama is also credited as being the sole writer for the current Dragon Ball Super arc.


How did you come to the conclusion that this is the first thing he isn't involved in?
I understand he was wrong about that. But that’s pretty much the only notable instance.

And the basic point is that he’s not someone that just makes up facts for clicks. He could be wrong about things, but he only makes videos if he believes the information to be legit and feels that his sources are legit.

He’s not like, say, Jaymes Hanson or Forneverworld, making a “the Bleach anime is 100% coming back” video once every 3 months.


I never said that wasn’t how it always worked.

And I was pointing out the distinct difference between Broly, Battle of God’s and Ressurection F.

In the latter two movies, Toriyama is credited as a “Story by Toriyama”, but the writer and screenplays of the movie is different. And we know that Toriyama wasn’t originally working on Battle Of Gods, and only came on board later. With Broly, Toriyama is credited as the Screenplay writer and Screenplay writer, which would suggest that he had more of a hand in the actual plot of the Broly film than the other 2 films.

With the Manga, even if Toriyama died today, I highly doubt they would suddenly just take his name off the manga when it’s already over 10 volumes in. We already know that the story wasn’t 100% him. And even with Toyotaro himself stating that he writes elements of the story, the manga never updates to saying “Story by Toriyama and Toyotaro”. So the manga labeling never seemed accurate to the process anyway
 

rg24

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I understand he was wrong about that. But that’s pretty much the only notable instance.

And the basic point is that he’s not someone that just makes up facts for clicks. He could be wrong about things, but he only makes videos if he believes the information to be legit and feels that his sources are legit.

He’s not like, say, Jaymes Hanson or Forneverworld, making a “the Bleach anime is 100% coming back” video once every 3 months.


I never said that wasn’t how it always worked.

And I was pointing out the distinct difference between Broly, Battle of God’s and Ressurection F.

In the latter two movies, Toriyama is credited as a “Story by Toriyama”, but the writer and screenplays of the movie is different. And we know that Toriyama wasn’t originally working on Battle Of Gods, and only came on board later. With Broly, Toriyama is credited as the Screenplay writer and Screenplay writer, which would suggest that he had more of a hand in the actual plot of the Broly film than the other 2 films.

With the Manga, even if Toriyama died today, I highly doubt they would suddenly just take his name off the manga when it’s already over 10 volumes in. We already know that the story wasn’t 100% him. And even with Toyotaro himself stating that he writes elements of the story, the manga never updates to saying “Story by Toriyama and Toyotaro”. So the manga labeling never seemed accurate to the process anyway
Not really, in the Freezer animebook there is message of Toriyama where he say that he made the script for the freezer one and The Balttle of the Gods. And in the Brolly one he is credited as "original idea - story - character desing" and in the interview Toriyama is asked about what he say about the characters and what they say and do to the anime team and he anwser that pretty much everything they do is write in the script he give them (the same that manga).
 

savethecat

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Not really, in the Freezer animebook there is message of Toriyama where he say that he made the script for the freezer one and The Balttle of the Gods. And in the Brolly one he is credited as "original idea - story - character desing" and in the interview Toriyama is asked about what he say about the characters and what they say and do to the anime team and he anwser that pretty much everything they do is write in the script he give them (the same that manga).
This is conflicting with some of the public information about these films though.

Battle Of Gods was in being worked on beforehand Toriyama came on board. It’s been said that he came on board later to help revise the story and provide character designs and original art.

I’ll admit that I was mistaken with Resurrection F. But for Both Ressurection F and Broly, publically Toriyama is only credited as the writer and Screenplay writer. There’s no information about anyone else writing the scripts to those stories. Obviously the directors probably took liberties on things, but there nobody we can credit to the story but Toriyama for those stories
 

rg24

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This is conflicting with some of the public information about these films though.

Battle Of Gods was in being worked on beforehand Toriyama came on board. It’s been said that he came on board later to help revise the story and provide character designs and original art.

I’ll admit that I was mistaken with Resurrection F. But for Both Ressurection F and Broly, publically Toriyama is only credited as the writer and Screenplay writer. There’s no information about anyone else writing the scripts to those stories. Obviously the directors probably took liberties on things, but there nobody we can credit to the story but Toriyama for those stories
"Public information" based on what?? Last time I check what the creator say is how things go. There is no credit in the Freezer but in Broly the storyboard is made by Tatsuya Nagamine (Director), Kazuya Karasawa and Masato Mitsuka.
 

savethecat

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"Public information" based on what?? Last time I check what the creator say is how things go. There is no credit in the Freezer but in Broly the storyboard is made by Tatsuya Nagamine (Director), Kazuya Karasawa and Masato Mitsuka.
Public info as in the credits of the film, and movie credits that you can look up.

Are you sure Storyboard isn’t referring to Storyboarding for the animation process? Storyboarding isn’t typically a term I see that refers to the Screenplay and scripts. Obviously Toriyama isn’t going to be Storyboarding a movie when he’s not an animator or works in tv and film
 
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rg24

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Public info as in the credits of the film, and movie credits that you can look up.

Are you sure Storyboard isn’t referring to Storyboarding for the animation process? Storyboarding isn’t typically a term I see that refers to the Screenplay and scripts. Obviously Toriyama isn’t going to be Storyboarding a movie when he’s not an animator or works in tv and film
The script was made by Toriyama and them those 3 made the storyboard and fill every details that lack in the script, them Toriyama supervise that and tell them if it ok or they need to make some change. The manga is the same just that is Toyotaro alone making the draft, pased to the editorial where Toriyama supervise it and tell if it ok or not.
 

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savethecat

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The script was made by Toriyama and them those 3 made the storyboard and fill every details that lack in the script, them Toriyama supervise that and tell them if it ok or they need to make some change. The manga is the same just that is Toyotaro alone making the draft, pased to the editorial where Toriyama supervise it and tell if it ok or not.
But a Storyboard is completely different than what you’re describing. The Storyboarding process is drawing out the scenes, framing compositions, etc. for animation.


Toriyama, Oda, Horikoshi, aren’t animators. So obviously when they’re writing original stories for the films they’re not going to be the ones creating the storyboards that translates and flesh things out for animation.

I understand that Toriyama didn’t handcraft these films on his own. I’m simply just stating that, companies are pretty transparent on what he does do on a surface level.
For Exp. Dragon Ball Kakarot heavily promoted Toriyama as being part of the team, when in actuality he didn’t do much. And credits in the game show that.
For Battle Of Gods, he wrote the Story, but not the Screenplay. Broly and Ressurection F, he’s listed as a the story writer, and Screenplay writer, which would suggest that he was more hands on with the creation than Battle Of Gods

The only exception is the Super manga, simply because what him and Toyotaro do revolving the story seems to fluctuate off and on throughout the manga. With Toyotaro sometime providing story detail and original designs and characters, and sometimes it being based purely on Toriyama’s outlines
 

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But a Storyboard is completely different than what you’re describing. The Storyboarding process is drawing out the scenes, framing compositions, etc. for animation.


Toriyama, Oda, Horikoshi, aren’t animators. So obviously when they’re writing original stories for the films they’re not going to be the ones creating the storyboards that translates and flesh things out for animation.

I understand that Toriyama didn’t handcraft these films on his own. I’m simply just stating that, companies are pretty transparent on what he does do on a surface level.
For Exp. Dragon Ball Kakarot heavily promoted Toriyama as being part of the team, when in actuality he didn’t do much. And credits in the game show that.
For Battle Of Gods, he wrote the Story, but not the Screenplay. Broly and Ressurection F, he’s listed as a the story writer, and Screenplay writer, which would suggest that he was more hands on with the creation than Battle Of Gods

The only exception is the Super manga, simply because what him and Toyotaro do revolving the story seems to fluctuate off and on throughout the manga. With Toyotaro sometime providing story detail and original designs and characters, and sometimes it being based purely on Toriyama’s outlines
He can fit in the "Screenplay writer" of everything but we can't say how much of he does because we never see one of the script he make. The only thing for sure is that he doesn't make the 100%, he make some and the other part is filled with Toyotaro in the manga, with those 3 that I mentioned in the movie, with some other in the series. We will never be sure how much he does till they release the script, if they do.
 

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Sales by Series - 10/5~10/11

#1
Kimetsu no Yaiba - 1,185,040
#2
Jujutsu Kaisen - 355,498
#3
The Promised Neverland - 265,571
#6
Haikyuu!! - 73,569
#7
Black Clover - 72,072
#8
Burn the Witch - 68,810
#9
One Piece - 67,461

Note
: Kimetsu no Yaiba has sold 70,354,435 copies in 2020.
 
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