Chapter Tower of God Chapter 485 Spoilers & Discussion

[kkck]

Bam now is probably stronger than the family heads were at this point. The family heads, probably alongside the workshop, were figuring out shinsoo as they climbed the tower. Bam has extroardinary growth rate and has received training from the hell train and then from evankhel, a high ranker with a conveniently similar skillset to his own via the orb. Add to that bam's capacity for explosive growth, for him, via devouring things. Which allowed him to physically manifest aspects of the thrysa. So far We have seen level 1 releases for the thrysa but odds are that bam, being bam, will be able to pull full transformations simultaneously at some point in the future.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2020 ---

The main issue is how SIU is taking the story. If this was a typical adventure storyline as early TOG was then there was no issues regarding bam s power. Late S2 and S3 is seeing bam and zahard declaring war on each other.
If zahard is as he is hyped and the other 10 are as such then this pansy growth is nothing.
Also the situation erupted with Bams intransigence. He is hell bent to tackle kallavan first battle he ran away saved by evk and yuri, second he ran away saved by Dwoon, third he and karaka tag teamed (after he 'completed' his training) and had literally 0 means of saving himself even after he jacked a shield from nowhere and was saved again by white.
With this achievement set it's a wonder why he didn't commit hara kiri

Sure, bam could still be nothing to zahard but that's kinda besides my point. Bam's growth rate probably has to substantially increase even more than now if he is aiming for zahard once he reaches the top. But I would argue that still presents a problem in regards to his friends. The stronger bam becomes the harder it will be to justify their presence as companions to bam. I do think SIU is trying to address that. Shinsoo qualities, rak being a native one, giving aguero enna core, a shinsoo quality AND yeon flames.... But the fact remains that they are inadequate partners for bam, they can't support bam against someone bam wouldn't be able to win against anyways by activating a boost. And the fact is... that bam is one of the least interesting characters in the series. Aguero, rak, androsi, yihwa, hatz.... they are what makes the story function. And yet the story clearly is having more and more trouble justifying their presense.

 

[King Dryst]

And the fact is... that bam is one of the least interesting characters in the series.

That's not a fact at all. That's your opinion. And as far as I'm concerned, a wrong opinion.

Aguero, rak, androsi, yihwa, hatz.... they are what makes the story function.

Glorified cheerleaders, aside from maybe Koon.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Already had the Red Thryssa before that, and technically the second Thorn as well.

Oh yeah, the hidden floor is after the floor of death. I’m tripping.

 

[REDIV]

It's been months since i've been back in here

 

[shaheer]

I do think SIU is trying to address that. Shinsoo qualities, rak being a native one, giving aguero enna core, a shinsoo quality AND yeon flames.... But the fact remains that they are inadequate partners for bam, they can't support bam against someone bam wouldn't be able to win against anyways by activating a boost. And the fact is... that bam is one of the least interesting characters in the series. Aguero, rak, androsi, yihwa, hatz.... they are what makes the story function

IDK if you remember AA is the mvp of this battle other than Bams deus ex machina powerboost. AA planned the attacks and revived white in the process he actually with assist from EVK killed off a high ranker bird. A record that till now Bam doesnt have. I would say if AA sits the whole battle out he has done more than one can do given till now the Irregular himself has done arguably less.
So over all i think SIU is doing quite a bit decent in making AA relevant his making Bam relevant seems out of place.I dont think Androssi and hatz makes story function at all. As a matter of fact she is absent from the inception of S3 and was missing at the beginning of S2 and story functioned fine. Koon is more integral but even him missing made the story go for some time.
I dont think integrating Koon would be too much trouble. The issue here is SIU painted Bam in a corner.He ramped up threat from adventure and occasional fug/zahard attack to literally an all out war with Zahard metaphorically taking the lead. That is a situation where Either Bam has to level up fast or it will make threat from zahard look pansy as hell which makes Zahard either idiotic or weak neither is good for a villain that is being hyped.

 

[King Dryst]

IDK if you remember AA is the mvp of this battle other than Bams deus ex machina powerboost. AA planned the attacks and revived white in the process he actually with assist from EVK killed off a high ranker bird. A record that till now Bam doesnt have. I would say if AA sits the whole battle out he has done more than one can do given till now the Irregular himself has done arguably less.

Man, I'm still so sour about the fact that SIU let Koon and Ship take out a High Ranker and Baam still hasn't done anything close to that. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about when I call the latter a disappointment.

I dont think Androssi and hatz makes story function at all.

And you would be wrong, sir. Hatsu swings his sword a thousand times a day, and this story just could not go without that!

 

[hblock]

SIU let Koon and Ship take out a High Ranker

This feat would've been impossible without the support of two top 300 HRs. It's not like they stand a chance against the weakest Ranker in existance alone.

 

[King Dryst]

This feat would've been impossible without the support of two top 300 HRs. It's not like they stand a chance against the weakest Ranker in existance alone.

There's an asterisk by it, sure. But there's also an asterisk of some sort next to almost any notable victory Baam has ever managed, and he still has nothing over any High Ranker. It's not like he often manages to do anything entirely on his own without help.

 

[hblock]

There's an asterisk by it, sure. But there's also an asterisk of some sort next to almost any notable victory Baam has ever managed, and he still has nothing over any High Ranker. It's not like he often manages to do anything entirely on his own without help.

Currently, he still didn't fight a low or average HR directly with the multipliers in pure 1v1 or just a little help, so you can't say much about it. Kallavan stands on a whole another level compared to this categories of HRs (even one armed), so Baam not defeating him or being overwhelmed is irrelevant.
I hope he would've a fight against a standard HR to see more of his abilities and where he stands currently.

 

[shaheer]

This feat would've been impossible without the support of two top 300 HRs. It's not like they stand a chance against the weakest Ranker in existance alone.

You can throw in 3 more top 300 ranker... oh wait there were 3 around; Evk Doom and Paul(though not top 3) and still you wouldnt have the dead bird. The main player was Koon thats all there is to it. Bams contribution that was due to his own capacity was teleportation. The wall breaking is so innate that he was merely an artifact in that issue rather than an active player.

Kallavan stands on a whole another level compared to this categories of HRs (even one armed), so Baam not defeating him or being overwhelmed is irrelevant.

Its quite relevant given Bam ended S2 with " I WILL HUNT KALLAVAN" badamtuss line and then ran away or needed saving from kallavan both the time he met kallavan by people he didnt count on at all ie he had no means to tackle. Its like Plot armor in its most blatant form jumping in under the guise of shock and awe as a red herring.

 

[hblock]

You can throw in 3 more top 300 ranker... oh wait there were 3 around; Evk Doom and Paul(though not top 3) and still you wouldnt have the dead bird. The main player was Koon thats all there is to it. Bams contribution that was due to his own capacity was teleportation. The wall breaking is so innate that he was merely an artifact in that issue rather than an active player.

What killed Dokoko is Lefav's bullet (not Khun's attack).
If Evankhell wasn't there, the whole guerilla tactic would've been impossible.
Without Hockney's precog, Evankhell would've being dead.
Without Shibisu, it wasn't even possible to locate Lefav and make a plan based on her abilities.
Without Doom and Paul's "combined" effort (combined, because just a single one wasn't enough to block most of Dokoko's attacks), Khun's ship would've been wiped (and Khun would've been dead).
In summary, each one had his specific curcial role. If you remove even a single one of these characters, the operation would've failed, but what matters the most is that Khun actually required the participation of three top 300 (or at least something close to it) for the plan that involved the kill of just one top 300. Also, his impact was strategic&support-only. Therefore, he's far from being the main rean reason for the success.

Its quite relevant given Bam ended S2 with " I WILL HUNT KALLAVAN" badamtuss line and then ran away or needed saving from kallavan both the time he met kallavan by people he didnt count on at all ie he had no means to tackle. Its like Plot armor in its most blatant form jumping in under the guise of shock and awe as a red herring.

Kinda agree about the Kallavan part, but I was adressing the Baam vs HR point.

 

[shaheer]

In summary, each one had his specific curcial role. If you remove even a single one of these characters, the operation would've failed, but what matters the most is that Khun actually required the participation of three top 300 (or at least something close to it) for the plan that involved the kill of just one top 300. Also, his impact was strategic&support-only. Therefore, he's far from being the main rean reason for the success.

That more or less looks to me like without a good watch maker you cant know the time without the tube you couldnt have landed on the examination room without your teachers you wouldnt have been able to learn properly and without the pencil maker you wont be able to write your stuffs on examination paper So while you did reach exam hall in time and gave a good exam its not what you did or you are the main reason of success its an aggregate. While i m being quite hyperbolic but its not that much. While its quite true that without intel and mobilization Koon wouldnt have managed to do what happened its still true that the center piece of the operation was Koons idea. He asked for evankhel to do a precice maneouver he ensured that the teleportation would happen in a manner that would take the bird out and he maneouvered whatever he could do to maximize the mission success with whatever players he could have. True the players were essential but the strategy of using ones bullet to kill other was purely from him and as such the lions share of credit goes to him rather than far from the real reason.

not to mention he is the real reason why white was ressurected and without Whites ressurection Bam would have been a smear of blood stain near the wall thanks to kallavan, is quite telling on Koons use. He not only managed to strategize and kill off one of the strongest in the enemy's side but also resurrect the strongest in theirs.

 

[King Dryst]

" I WILL HUNT KALLAVAN"

I switched my avatar in honor of Baam's badass boast here.

 

[hblock]

That more or less looks to me like without a good watch maker you cant know the time without the tube you couldnt have landed on the examination room without your teachers you wouldnt have been able to learn properly and without the pencil maker you wont be able to write your stuffs on examination paper So while you did reach exam hall in time and gave a good exam its not what you did or you are the main reason of success its an aggregate. While i m being quite hyperbolic but its not that much. While its quite true that without intel and mobilization Koon wouldnt have managed to do what happened its still true that the center piece of the operation was Koons idea. He asked for evankhel to do a precice maneouver he ensured that the teleportation would happen in a manner that would take the bird out and he maneouvered whatever he could do to maximize the mission success with whatever players he could have. True the players were essential but the strategy of using ones bullet to kill other was purely from him and as such the lions share of credit goes to him rather than far from the real reason.

The used metaphore doesn't fit since Khun only did his part (the strategy) in the whole operations. He even miscalculated because as we know if Paul and Doom weren't there (they weren't part of his strategy), his ship and himself would've been wiped.
Or, if you want to keep it, Khun would've being the teacher or the watch instead of the student.
The same goes for White, he only "helped" by expendaing the spell's range meanwhile White did most of the work and only regained his prime power because Dokoko was there.
What I want to say is that Khun is a pure strategist, he needs powerhouses to beat other powerhouses, he can't do it alone or with just the support of weak pieces. He can be effective against High Rankers with his super intelligence (only if he has other HRs in his side) but still struggle against mere regulars, even in a team fight.

 

[Brian Taboada]

What I want to say is that Khun is a pure strategist, he needs powerhouses to beat other powerhouses, he can't do it alone or with just the support of weak pieces. He can be effective against High Rankers with his super intelligence (only if he has other HRs in his side) but still struggle against mere regulars, even in a team fight.

How is this different than modern-day warfare? The brains are typically not the brawn. It is a symbiotic relationship that allows them to succeed as a team. There is a reason you do not have your top generals leading a charge. Koon may be weaker than a majority of those on the battlefield but his significance to the success in the battle cannot be overlooked. This is probably one of the major problems I see so far with the Army Corps. Rank is purely gained by might instead of intelligence or tactical genius in the battlefield. Take out the corps commander and Jahads army will fail and by leading the charge you are opening yourself up to such a disaster.

 

[shaheer]

What I want to say is that Khun is a pure strategist, he needs powerhouses to beat other powerhouses, he can't do it alone or with just the support of weak pieces. He can be effective against High Rankers with his super intelligence (only if he has other HRs in his side) but still struggle against mere regulars, even in a team fight.

Well then I guess we prioritize brain power differently. To me brain power is central, rest are secondary especially in a war.
In 1v1 battle sure fighting ability and tactics in fighting is what I look to praise. In a war strategists are central piece imho.

 

[hblock]

Well then I guess we prioritize brain power differently. To me brain power is central, rest are secondary especially in a war.
In 1v1 battle sure fighting ability and tactics in fighting is what I look to praise. In a war strategists are central piece imho.

With raw power, you can at least put a fight. With strategy, it may or may not work. So, it's obvious what's more important than what, esepcially in the current configuration where most top 300 HRs as individuals are stronger than a leaderless squadron.

 

[kkck]

IDK if you remember AA is the mvp of this battle other than Bams deus ex machina powerboost. AA planned the attacks and revived white in the process he actually with assist from EVK killed off a high ranker bird. A record that till now Bam doesnt have. I would say if AA sits the whole battle out he has done more than one can do given till now the Irregular himself has done arguably less.
So over all i think SIU is doing quite a bit decent in making AA relevant his making Bam relevant seems out of place.I dont think Androssi and hatz makes story function at all. As a matter of fact she is absent from the inception of S3 and was missing at the beginning of S2 and story functioned fine. Koon is more integral but even him missing made the story go for some time.
I dont think integrating Koon would be too much trouble. The issue here is SIU painted Bam in a corner.He ramped up threat from adventure and occasional fug/zahard attack to literally an all out war with Zahard metaphorically taking the lead. That is a situation where Either Bam has to level up fast or it will make threat from zahard look pansy as hell which makes Zahard either idiotic or weak neither is good for a villain that is being hyped.

I don't doubt aguero's tactical prowess but that is kinda besides my point which is that he is too weak to actually support bam in combat. Maybe with enna core but his skills as a lightbearer would probably lag if he has to make instant and real life decisions when rankers are at play. He can't actually support bam directly, just from behind and in safety. Can you imagine aguero being the least bit useful against kallavan while being bam's sole support and being physically where the battle is fighting? I suppose kallavan is a bit too much for this example but the same would go even for weaker high rankers in those conditions.

 

[hblock]

Koon may be weaker than a majority of those on the battlefield but his significance to the success in the battle cannot be overlooked. This is probably one of the major problems I see so far with the Army Corps. Rank is purely gained by might instead of intelligence or tactical genius in the battlefield. Take out the corps commander and Jahads army will fail and by leading the charge you are opening yourself up to such a disaster.

I agree about Khun's impact, his intelligence and Yeon flame are great assets, my point was mainly that he stands no chance alone or with just weak allies against much stronger foes. Thus his importance isn't on the same level of mighty powerhouses.
I also agree about the ZA hierarchy. Other than corps commanders (most top 300 are probably stronger than a leaderless squadron), a corps would've been far stronger if led by folks who have great knowledge and the necessary IQ to effectively use the abilities of each Ranker and weaponry. This much makes sens.

 

[sazon]

wow, the topic got active again.

-I saw that there are a lot of new people here, so I will say this: Discussing Baam's strength levels here is a waste of time, honestly. There people who expect him to be like Sung Jin Woo (not that it's a bad thing) and there are those who are happy with his development, this is practically a loop here.

- There is no reason for Baam's friends to accompany him, the guy is an irregular and he is still set up to fight the king of the tower. There are centers of strong rankers and it is clear that Baam will need an army, so we can have AA, Rak, Ran, Hatsu etc with good fights and good developments, but they do not need to accompany Baam, because this never happened , Baam has always been the strongest.

-Killing a master to save another, it would be a bad writing, in my opinion. Eventually I believe that EVK will end up dead, but it has to be something epic and satisfying for her and right now, I don't think that can be achieved in the nest.