The Israel-Palestine crisis

[Raven]

Nothing makes anything right, still, reality exists. If you are not going to face reality, then you cannot really comprehend that type of crisis and your words are empty.

There is no country in this world, no matter whether it is let by jacinda ardern or by kim jong un, that is going to accept being hit my hundreds of missiles. None. There was always going to be a reaction and that reaction had to be overwhelming and kill lots of Hamas. And such a reaction is not possible without killing innocents, so the Israelis did that.

Whether you think Israel started that conflict is meaningless for that question. Once the missiles flew, there was always going to be that reaction.

Israel discriminates against arab israelis and palestinians, they do. I also think that a lot of the settling policy is directly aimed at playing the long game to push palestinians back and take more land. That is both true, yet, if there are missiles flying, at that point nobody can really claim israel has another choice. No country in the world would decide to not attack in that kind of situation. And if there is an attack in such a densely populated area, there are going to be dead innocents. It is as easy as that.

You want to grant them access to kill innocents because others did it, Now you spouting none sense about reality that you yourself is lacking, You ask the Palestinians to not show any resistance no matter what the Zionist does to them. If you are lacking dignity and honor, Don't ask them to be the same.

You think every country in the world is Zionist invaders? You can't compare other countries to Israel. Invalid comparison, It's not self defense, Its committing war crimes in open air, Ironic that you talk about reality when you are being delusional at best.

 

[shionoro]

You want to grant them access to kill innocents because others did it, Now you spouting none sense about reality that you yourself is lacking, You ask the Palestinians to not show any resistance no matter what the Zionist does to them. If you are lacking dignity and honor, Don't ask them to be the same.

You think every country in the world is Zionist invaders? You can't compare other countries to Israel. Invalid comparison, It's not self defense, Its committing war crimes in open air, Ironic that you talk about reality when you are being delusional at best.

No, I am telling you that innocents are going to die in an armed conflict. Always. And that israel, after the missile attack, had no other choice but to wage that conflict in Gaza.

Because, after all, you ask the israelis to not resist in any way after being shot at with rockets.

Where were you when azerbaidschan took a part of armenia with turkeys help? When turkey slowly rids parts of syria (afrin) from the kurdish? What about the Saudis in Yemen? Curiously, people just freak out when it is Israel doing the fighting. Other countries' conflicts do not get that level of attention, even tho far more people die.

The picture you shared in this thread before, how many palestinians died since like 15 years? About 6000. If that number is accurate.

The turkish Afrin offensive alone, in just a few months, had 2k dead people. Radio silence on the side of the american left, radio silence here.
Yemen war? 130.000 people dead. And that is a war directly supported by the US. You hear some lefties say the US should not support the saudis. You do not see people run around and burn saudi flags, curiously.

The armenia war, led by turkey and azerbaidschan, another nato ally? In just a few months, roughly the same kind of number as the israel/palestina conflict saw in these 15 years. Again, it went through some media with some celebrities sharing it, but most people simply did not care. At least now that is i over, nobody even talks about it anymore.

 

[Raven]

No, I am telling you that innocents are going to die in an armed conflict. Always. And that israel, after the missile attack, had no other choice but to wage that conflict in Gaza.

Because, after all, you ask the israelis to not resist in any way after being shot at with rockets.

Where were you when azerbaidschan took a part of armenia with turkeys help? When turkey slowly rids parts of syria (afrin) from the kurdish? What about the Saudis in Yemen? Curiously, people just freak out when it is Israel doing the fighting. Other countries' conflicts do not get that level of attention, even tho far more people die.

The picture you shared in this thread before, how many palestinians died since like 15 years? About 6000. If that number is accurate.

The turkish Afrin offensive alone, in just a few months, had 2k dead people. Radio silence on the side of the american left, radio silence here.
Yemen war? 130.000 people dead. And that is a war directly supported by the US. You hear some lefties say the US should not support the saudis. You do not see people run around and burn saudi flags, curiously.

The armenia war, led by turkey and azerbaidschan, another nato ally? In just a few months, roughly the same kind of number as the israel/palestina conflict saw in these 15 years. Again, it went through some media with some celebrities sharing it, but most people simply did not care. At least now that is i over, nobody even talks about it anymore.

People die in armed conflicts? No shit Sherlock, However, 80% of the victims weren't armed , Israel is committing war crimes not self defense, I ask them not kill children and the innocent and blame it on Hamas.

Trying so hard to defend criminals i see! Wanking the Israelis, Taking side of the bad guys, Being so clouded that you can't think straight anymore, Israel had another choice, To apologize about what they did in Jerusalem against Muslims, Mocking and annoying them in Ramdan their holy month in Al-Aqsa mosque, To apologize for attempting to kick out 28 families from Sheik Jarah without any right to do so. It would have been a lot better for both sides. But since they are Zionest invaders and evil scum and you know it and support them, All they wanted to kill the innocent in non armed conflicts and blame it on Hamas to kick them out.

What picture i shared before? Dude you are so delusional i swear, I didn't post any pictures about causalities from both sides and i definitely didn't talk with you before in this thread. This is a thread for Israel-Palestine, I don't want to talk about Saudis, Armenia, Yemen, Turkey or any conflict that isn't about Israel/Palestine, Stop the off topic and stick to key point.

 

[shionoro]

People die in armed conflicts? No shit Sherlock, However, 80% of the victims weren't armed , Israel is committing war crimes not self defense, I ask them not kill children and the innocent and blame it on Hamas.

Trying so hard to defend criminals i see! Wanking the Israelis, Taking side of the bad guys, Being so clouded that you can't think straight anymore, Israel had another choice, To apologize about what they did in Jerusalem against Muslims, Mocking and annoying them in Ramdan their holy month in Al-Aqsa mosque, To apologize for attempting to kick out 28 families from Sheik Jarah without any right to do so. It would have been a lot better for both sides. But since they are Zionest invaders and evil scum and you know it and support them, All they wanted to kill the innocent in non armed conflicts and blame it on Hamas to kick them out.

What picture i shared before? Dude you are so delusional i swear, I didn't post any pictures about causalities from both sides and i definitely didn't talk with you before in this thread. This is a thread for Israel-Palestine, I don't want to talk about Saudis, Armenia, Yemen, Turkey or any conflict that isn't about Israel/Palestine, Stop the off topic and stick to key point.

Yes, people die in armed conflict and in most of the recent armed conflicts, they die more numerously than in the Israel palestine conflict. In most armed conflicts, one party does not hide behind civilians, too.

Of course you do not want to talk about all the other conflicts int he world. Elseways you would have to see that it is pretty strange you only want to focus on israel when their armed conflict is far less bloody than several recent (or ongoing) conflicts but curiously do not get the same media attention.

As it stands: No. No country in the world is going to accept rockets flying en masse onto their territory without a very serious military reaction to it. Not a single one in the world, and most would do worse things than israel for far less. I.E., all the countries i have mentioned.

Also, I kinda question you calling me delusional when you think that Israel could prevent this conflict by 'appologizing' lol.

 

[kkck]

Nothing makes anything right, still, reality exists. If you are not going to face reality, then you cannot really comprehend that type of crisis and your words are empty.

There is no country in this world, no matter whether it is let by jacinda ardern or by kim jong un, that is going to accept being hit my hundreds of missiles. None. There was always going to be a reaction and that reaction had to be overwhelming and kill lots of Hamas. And such a reaction is not possible without killing innocents, so the Israelis did that.

Whether you think Israel started that conflict is meaningless for that question. Once the missiles flew, there was always going to be that reaction.

Israel discriminates against arab israelis and palestinians, they do. I also think that a lot of the settling policy is directly aimed at playing the long game to push palestinians back and take more land. That is both true, yet, if there are missiles flying, at that point nobody can really claim israel has another choice. No country in the world would decide to not attack in that kind of situation. And if there is an attack in such a densely populated area, there are going to be dead innocents. It is as easy as that.

This isn't really self defense... Even in self defense there is a sense of proportionality. As in, imagine you get attacked with a knife. And you pull out a gun in self defense. You get your hit, survive, and the guy gets taken to the hospital. That's then end of it... Anything more than that is completely disproportionate and outside self defense. As in, if you were to walk up to the injured guy and finish the job that's be murder. When it comes to Israel... Palestine shots missiles at Israel, they get shot down by their state of the art missile system and Israel shots back and kills dozens. Palestine kill one Israelite, israel kills hundreds... None of that is self defense, it's just plain ol' war.

Ultimately... Israel absolutely is the aggressor in general here. And... there is zero good will on either side to actually just live peacefully. Israel keeps expanding, palestine would gladly murder everyone in israel if it could...

 

[shionoro]

This isn't really self defense... Even in self defense there is a sense of proportionality. As in, imagine you get attacked with a knife. And you pull out a gun in self defense. You get your hit, survive, and the guy gets taken to the hospital. That's then end of it... Anything more than that is completely disproportionate and outside self defense. As in, if you were to walk up to the injured guy and finish the job that's be murder. When it comes to Israel... Palestine shots missiles at Israel, they get shot down by their state of the art missile system and Israel shots back and kills dozens. Palestine kill one Israelite, israel kills hundreds... None of that is self defense, it's just plain ol' war.

Ultimately... Israel absolutely is the aggressor in general here. And... there is zero good will on either side to actually just live peacefully. Israel keeps expanding, palestine would gladly murder everyone in israel if it could...

Self defense rule is 'as much as you have to'. To stop the rockets, they need to destroy the Hamas bases. There is no other way.
Your example would look more like "There is a guy with a knife, you shoot him and he is incapacitated. But he can still move just fine, and walks to pick up the knife again." Obviously, self defense includes shooting him again. Because he is still a threat.

Just letting Hamas shoot until they have no rockets anymore is not an option, they can restock these quickly and you always have see one thing:
Israelis are not going to accept just getting hit. If there is no reaction of netanjahu, they will elect someone to the right of him in the next election and then does something more drastic. No people in the world will accept just taking it. The Israelis wont, the Palestinians wont either and both cannot be denied that right.

Israel is in some ways the aggressor, the Hamas are in other ways. It is not a good idea to render israel as the only aggressor even if you are think they are, because that makes it harder to negotiate.

Biden gets this: He knows that Netanjahu will instantly stop listening if Biden does question Israel's right of self defense. Which is why Israel does listen to the US, but not to the EU. To soothe this conflict again, you have to negotiate with Israel and the moderate parts of Fatah to find a way out of this mess. All the people sharing pictures and longing for the US to take action against Israel make this path harder.

 

[Raven]

Yes, people die in armed conflict and in most of the recent armed conflicts, they die more numerously than in the Israel palestine conflict. In most armed conflicts, one party does not hide behind civilians, too.

Of course you do not want to talk about all the other conflicts int he world. Elseways you would have to see that it is pretty strange you only want to focus on israel when their armed conflict is far less bloody than several recent (or ongoing) conflicts but curiously do not get the same media attention.

As it stands: No. No country in the world is going to accept rockets flying en masse onto their territory without a very serious military reaction to it. Not a single one in the world, and most would do worse things than israel for far less. I.E., all the countries i have mentioned.

Also, I kinda question you calling me delusional when you think that Israel could prevent this conflict by 'appologizing' lol.

You are like that kid in primary school that didn't do his homework and got caught then cries about it and point out other kids who didn't do their homeworks, Why would i talk about other conflicts in Israeli/Palestine thread? If any country is acting like Israel then they are scums like them, Does that makes you happy, Now stop the none sense, will ya?

How many times i have to tell you Israel and Palestine isn't like common conflicts that happen in the world. Israeli are invaders, They are consistently committing war crimes against them, For 70 years++ What self defense you want them to have? If you are the oppressor, Then you will get resistance unless they kill them all, You can't just kill children because you can't deal with the resistance. What you are saying is sheer moral failure, You should feel ashamed honestly.

I mean you talked like there is no other options for Israel, Ofc there are but when you are Israel, You try to find any opening to committee murder. really simple

No offense, Yes you are delusional
You fantasize about some picture i posted about the war causalities when i didn't
You think Israel is a victim when she isn't
You talk about reality
but your talk is superficiality
Turkey, Yemen and Syria
This is Israel/Palestine conflict area.

 

[shionoro]

You are like that kid in primary school that didn't do his homework and got caught then cries about it and point out other kids who didn't do their homeworks, Why would i talk about other conflicts in Israeli/Palestine? If any country is acting like Israel then they are scums like them, Does that makes you happy, Now stop the none sense, will ya?

How many times i have to tell you Israel and Palestine isn't like common conflicts that happen in the world. Israeli are invaders, They are consistently committing war crimes against them, For 70 years++ What self defense you want them to have? If you are the oppressor, Then you will get resistance unless they kill them all, You can't just kill children because you can't deal with the resistance. What you are saying is sheer moral failure, You should feel ashamed honestly.

I mean you talked like there is no other options for Israel, Ofc there are but when you are Israel, You try to find any opening to committee murder. really simple

No offense, Yes you are delusional
You fantasize about some picture i posted about the war causalities when i didn't
You think Israel is a victim when she isn't
You talk about reality
but your talk is superficiality
Turkey, Yemen and Syria
This is Israel/Palestine conflict area.

But oddly you do not talk about that 'scum'. Only about Israel. Why?
Because it is quite a common conflict. Israel is not more an invader than the saudis in yemen, than the turkish in kurdish regions, than russia in ukraine, than azerbaidschan in naghrono karabach, than morrocko in westsahara.

But all these conflicts do not matter to you. Because these 'invaders' are not jewish.

 

[Raven]

But oddly you do not talk about that 'scum'. Only about Israel. Why?
Because it is quite a common conflict. Israel is not more an invader than the saudis in yemen, than the turkish in kurdish regions, than russia in ukraine, than azerbaidschan in naghrono karabach, than morrocko in westsahara.

But all these conflicts do not matter to you. Because these 'invaders' are not jewish.

You are just being delusional again, Who told you i'm not against Saudis war crimes in Yemen or against their own people like khashoggi? or against Russia crimes in Ukraine or against China crimes in uyghur , Or against India crimes in Kashmir or against USA crimes in Iraq, etc. It's simply not the right place to talk about those here, I'm not anti jewish like you assume here. My father was jewish once, and some of my Uncle and aunts from my father side are Jewish. I love them. I hate the Zionist scum invaders.

 

[shionoro]

You are just being delusional again, Who told you i'm not against Saudis war crimes in Yemen or against their own people like khashoggi? or against Russia crimes in Ukraine or against China crimes in uyghur , Or against India crimes in Kashmir or against USA crimes in Iraq, etc. It's simply not the right place to talk about those here, I'm not anti jewish like you assume here. My father was jewish once, and some of my Uncle and aunts from my father side are Jewish. I love them. I hate the Zionist scum invaders.

Well did you ever write here about it with a fraction of the anger you express here? I just dont see many people mass protesting against all the conflicts i mentioned. Its just when it comes to jews that people suddenly think there is a problem.
Jews are only fine if they obey and are proper victims.

 

[kkck]

Self defense rule is 'as much as you have to'. To stop the rockets, they need to destroy the Hamas bases. There is no other way.
Your example would look more like "There is a guy with a knife, you shoot him and he is incapacitated. But he can still move just fine, and walks to pick up the knife again." Obviously, self defense includes shooting him again. Because he is still a threat.

Just letting Hamas shoot until they have no rockets anymore is not an option, they can restock these quickly and you always have see one thing:
Israelis are not going to accept just getting hit. If there is no reaction of netanjahu, they will elect someone to the right of him in the next election and then does something more drastic. No people in the world will accept just taking it. The Israelis wont, the Palestinians wont either and both cannot be denied that right.

Israel is in some ways the aggressor, the Hamas are in other ways. It is not a good idea to render israel as the only aggressor even if you are think they are, because that makes it harder to negotiate.

Biden gets this: He knows that Netanjahu will instantly stop listening if Biden does question Israel's right of self defense. Which is why Israel does listen to the US, but not to the EU. To soothe this conflict again, you have to negotiate with Israel and the moderate parts of Fatah to find a way out of this mess. All the people sharing pictures and longing for the US to take action against Israel make this path harder.

I don't think that works. If you go with that example any further than I did then you also have to add in that the attacker is pissed off that 70 years earlier his home was taken. Of course, in practice this isn't about a home but rather a country and you can't just ctrl z that one. Israel is there to stay...


But... that's not what Israel is doing. Plenty of civilians have died now and in the past. It'd be one thing if Hamas shots a missile, it gets taken down and Israel shoots once and a few people died. There's be some measure of proportionality in that. But the way this works is that Hamas shots, the missiles get taken down and israel retaliates and kills hundreds including civilians. Heck, there would even be a case for proportionality here if Israel targeted exclusively military bases but that's also not what is happening.

I haven't portrayed Israel as the only aggressor. The terrorist label fits Hamas perfectly for a reason. But the fact remains that neither side has any amount of good will to move things forward in any positive direction.

israel would need the US regardless of whether biden speaks nicely of them or not. The US sends plenty of aid to Israel which should be used as leverage to pressure them against some of their more aggressive policies. Say, settlement expansions and whatnot. And if the US is not getting any leverage over Israel even with the aid... then there is a good case to be made that israel doesn't even need the aid to begin with.

 

[shionoro]

I don't think that works. If you go with that example any further than I did then you also have to add in that the attacker is pissed off that 70 years earlier his home was taken. Of course, in practice this isn't about a home but rather a country and you can't just ctrl z that one. Israel is there to stay...


But... that's not what Israel is doing. Plenty of civilians have died now and in the past. It'd be one thing if Hamas shots a missile, it gets taken down and Israel shoots once and a few people died. There's be some measure of proportionality in that. But the way this works is that Hamas shots, the missiles get taken down and israel retaliates and kills hundreds including civilians. Heck, there would even be a case for proportionality here if Israel targeted exclusively military bases but that's also not what is happening.

I haven't portrayed Israel as the only aggressor. The terrorist label fits Hamas perfectly for a reason. But the fact remains that neither side has any amount of good will to move things forward in any positive direction.

israel would need the US regardless of whether biden speaks nicely of them or not. The US sends plenty of aid to Israel which should be used as leverage to pressure them against some of their more aggressive policies. Say, settlement expansions and whatnot. And if the US is not getting any leverage over Israel even with the aid... then there is a good case to be made that israel doesn't even need the aid to begin with.

I would still say that i can defend myself against some guy who is mad about something that happened 70 years ago and tries to kill me.

What you outline cannot work. The hamas have an effective logistics system that cannot be disrupted by firing one shot. You have to destroy their tunnels and their organizational bases and these are under cities, densely populated cities. And that is what israel is targeting. If Israel wanted to mow more palestinians down, they could do that. There is no force that could stop them from doing it. Even if it loses its allies, israel, in that region, is strong enough to do whatever they want, just like the turkish and the saudis. The fact that israel's war is far less bloody than the others of its kind mean that Israel does not aim to kill civilians. It does accept civilians casualties tho.
The bottomline is: If Israel wants to stop the rockets, they have to kill hundreds of civilians. There is no other way. And they will never accept being shot at with rockets.

About the US help: No Israel does not need it, but it strongly benefits from it. Without the US help, things would get a lot harder. But that would just mean one thing: Israel would become more radical, because it is more desperate. The US helping Israel and giving them security means Israel has something to lose and a good reason to not go all out. You can see in examples like Russia what happens when a nation feels threatened that has a strong military but no friends in the world. They stop giving a fuck and just annex shit. The US aid is a push for a less violent conflict.

 

[Raven]

Well did you ever write here about it with a fraction of the anger you express here? I just dont see many people mass protesting against all the conflicts i mentioned. Its just when it comes to jews that people suddenly think there is a problem.
Jews are only fine if they obey and are proper victims.

Nah, I rarely go outside fairy tail section and fun forums in this manga forum. It's largely known as manga discussion site, I come here to discuss fairy tail and have fun. I have another activities in many forums that talks politics and conflicts, I'm not supporting anyone who kill the innocents, I don't give free pass to anyone to committee such crimes.

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2021, Original Post Date: May 17, 2021 ---

 

[shionoro]

Nah, I rarely go outside fairy tail section and fun forums in this manga forum. It's largely known as manga discussion site, I come here to discuss fairy tail and have fun. I have another activities in many forums that talks politics and conflicts, I'm not supporting anyone who kill the innocents, I don't give free pass to anyone to committee such crimes.

And just for that conflict you decide that, not for the various conflicts of similar set ups that are far more bloody. And you wonder why i ask why every kind of war seems to be a thing to shrug about, or go 'well i dont like war', but when jews are not victims but active fighters, suddenly the whole world things they have to protest.

I will tell you something: Ignorant people, especially from the west, who dont know left form right in this complicated conflict and are just controlled by emotion and their social media feet are not helpful in the resolution of this conflict. Not helpful for Israel and not helpful for Palestine either. And you do not know left from right in this conflict.

 

[Raven]

And just for that conflict you decide that, not for the various conflicts of similar set ups that are far more bloody. And you wonder why i ask why every kind of war seems to be a thing to shrug about, or go 'well i dont like war', but when jews are not victims but active fighters, suddenly the whole world things they have to protest.

I will tell you something: Ignorant people, especially from the west, who dont know left form right in this complicated conflict and are just controlled by emotion and their social media feet are not helpful in the resolution of this conflict. Not helpful for Israel and not helpful for Palestine either. And you do not know left from right in this conflict.

No I found this thread by chance and decided to share my thoughts. Let’s be clear here you only mention other wars because you don’t like the fact that Israel is getting zoned out and exposed to the world, now everyone know how racist, ugly and bad Israel is.
The whole world have to protest because once they believed the Israeli lies, now thanks to Israel utter stupidity, They thought by following the same strategy of killing the innocent and twist facts and make it appear like Palestine are the terrorists, people would believe their lies once again, Now everything is obvious thanks to modern technology, anything is easily documented and it’s hard to cover up the war crimes.
I will tell you something, there is no ignorant but the ones who support Israel and thinks she is the victim. Funny you talk about the west Palestine supporters being controlled by emotions when you are being very emotional about it and throwing false accusations left and right, much less, flat out asking me to not talk about it because I didn’t talk about other crimes that happened.

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2021, Original Post Date: May 17, 2021 ---

This Zionist went from screw you Nazih to


> We killed Jesus, we are proud of it
> we gonna kill you and the Palestinian
> my land, god gave it me

The fucking irony

 

[M3J]

Because, after all, you ask the israelis to not resist in any way after being shot at with rockets.

Israel isn't defending itself when it's the one who caused the conflict, Hamas is. Israel was the one who attacked Palestinians, back and then and now, and you don't expect Palestinians to stand up for themselves? There'd be nothing to resist if Israel didn't keep starting conflicts, and especially with huge ass weapons, defense, and army that Hamas/Palestine lack.

 

[Raven]

A Retired captain from the air force of the Israeli army admitting that Israel does war crimes by killing children on purpose. It can't get any more obvious really. He also said that Israel don't teach anything about history for the new generations and they are only taught to be a strict Zionist.

It now make sense why they can't make one good argument.

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2021 ---

Jews against Zionist is popular everywhere.

https://twitter.com/Zionocracy

 

[mrsticky005]

A Retired captain from the air force of the Israeli army admitting that Israel does war crimes by killing children on purpose. It can't get any more obvious really. He also said that Israel don't teach anything about history for the new generations and they are only taught to be a strict Zionist.

It now make sense why they can't make one good argument.

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2021, Original Post Date: May 17, 2021 ---

Many jews are against the zionist atrocity, There are good people and bad people, everywhere. Jews in Israel are getting brainwashed and taught to be animals that lack sympathy. They are literally the worst nation in the world because they are raised to be ignorant and enabled to committee crimes against others. That's why threads like that can be important. We talk about their crimes and expose their history, Maybe it can make a slight change. It's not useless really.

That is very true that there are many Jews who are opposed to Zionism. Hell there were (and still are) literal Jewish Nazis. It is crazy.
The Jewish experience is not a narrow one.

It should also be noted that Zionism has a very prominent role in so called Christendom.
The vast majority of Zionists are not Jews but self proclaimed Christians.

Though as one who calls them self a Christian I do NOT support Zionism. Nor do I find it to be Biblically sound.

The idea that “The Jews” are promised their own private land simply because they are Jews is both unbiblical and Anti-Christian.
Actually it is also Anti-Jewish because the only reason there “needed” to be a specifically Jewish state in Israel was because Jews and Gentiles particularly in Europe could not learn to be at peace with one another.

 

[Raven]

 

[mrsticky005]

Hopefully one day we will learn to be at peace with one another.