Discussion Some High Rankers when they were regulars

[Wha]

Karaka is definitely not superior to yuri. Saying karaka is vastly inferior to yuri is still an overestimation of his strength. Karaka literally threw everything he had at yuri. Heck, he threw at yuri more than he had since the attack absorbed yuri's own attacks.. And even then yuri barely felt it. Yuri is probably not yet at the slayer or corp commander level but she is definitely closer to that than she is to karaka.

Haha relax, i know how you feel about that subject. But we aren't talking about them as how they are right now, but when they were regulars.
And Yuri did think something like that during their first fight. The world of the tower makes the rankers and high Rankers even more powerful like Jinsung said. Since Yuri is a Ha and a princess as well, that should count double. So why should she think that Karaka could ever catch up to her, if not for his potential/talent?

 

[Demonspeed]

How is karaka superior to yuri ?

Current Karaka isn't stronger than Yuri, but it was before they became Ranker. I put Karaka above because I imagined him above skill-wise. His training was probably also stricter as a FUG Slayer.

 

[kkck]

Current Karaka isn't stronger than Yuri, but it was before they became Ranker. I put Karaka above because I imagined him above skill-wise. His training was probably also stricter as a FUG Slayer.

I think this is pretty unlikely. Mostly because members of the 10 families go through a pretty rigorous training in general and the process to select a princess is also pretty intense. Even if his training was harsher she still has to overcome the sheer advantage her naturally tough body that was then enhanced by zahard's blood gives her. For more context consider lerolo's words back at the crown game... Even androsi didn't feel like yuri. And androsi's life was a huge shitpile of training.

 

[Wha]

-Yuri
-Maschenny
-Kallavan
-Yamah
-Doom
-Paul
-Yasratcha
-Karaka
-Adori

I would go like this

Adori (kinda explains itself)



Karaka (already explained why i think that way, it was in that chapter https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-223/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=304)
Yuri/Maschenny (both genius princesses, maybe putting Yuri a little bit ahead because of the whole "most talented Ha" thing)

not sure about the rest.

I also think that Adori was the only one capable of defeating a Ranker, apart from probably Enne.
Since Siu hyped Rankers and a Regular defeating one, way too much. If karaka defeated one as an Regular, FUG would make sure that everyone knows. If Yuri would have been able to do it, the Zahard empire would have told everyone.

 

[Demonspeed]

I think this is pretty unlikely. Mostly because members of the 10 families go through a pretty rigorous training in general and the process to select a princess is also pretty intense. Even if his training was harsher she still has to overcome the sheer advantage her naturally tough body that was then enhanced by zahard's blood gives her. For more context consider lerolo's words back at the crown game... Even androsi didn't feel like yuri. And androsi's life was a huge shitpile of training.

Princess selection is strict but the intensity isn't the same for them. Androssi had to fight starving and killing her rivals meanwhile Elaine(who failed) had to refuse the advances of a man. Even now Androssi is more disliked than most because she is not originally from the 10 Families, Elaine was also rather hated because she is not a DD.

Sure, Yuri must have it rough too but she is the favorite of the Ha family and from what we have seen from her training with Cheonhee, I doubt her circumstances were as harsh.

The current Yuri has more experience and raw power than Karaka but if both are at the level where they were right before becoming Rankers the circumstances change. Although Princesses are tough, they are not invincible. He would probably be able to injure her with Floral Butterfly techs and more.

Even in their current versions, despite three confrontations, Yuri has never shown superiority over Karaka in terms of martial skills, only in terms of physical strength and durability. He managed to handle her on the FoD and also while Team Baam were in the HF.

 

[kkck]

Princess selection is strict but the intensity isn't the same for them. Androssi had to fight starving and killing her rivals meanwhile Elaine(who failed) had to refuse the advances of a man. Even now Androssi is more disliked than most because she is not originally from the 10 Families, Elaine was also rather hated because she is not a DD.

Sure, Yuri must have it rough too but she is the favorite of the Ha family and from what we have seen from her training with Cheonhee, I doubt her circumstances were as harsh.

The current Yuri has more experience and raw power than Karaka but if both are at the level where they were right before becoming Rankers the circumstances change. Although Princesses are tough, they are not invincible. He would probably be able to injure her with Floral Butterfly techs and more.

Even in their current versions, despite three confrontations, Yuri has never shown superiority over Karaka in terms of martial skills, only in terms of physical strength and durability. He managed to handle her on the FoD and also while Team Baam were in the HF.

The elaine bit wasn't her actual training, that was just a final trap/test set before she actually became a princess.

Its hard to say without knowing about yuri's background but to me the more reasonable scenario here is that even if yuri was a house favorite she probably was not the only one who was in the running to become princess. And in order to become one she probably had to crush the competition as well. Now, it's possible yuri at that stage was simply such a monster that she easily trampled over would be candidates. But if this is the case she probably made a few enemies on the way. This is my guess regarding this actual situation. Also note that the bit with yuri and cheonhe ended with yuri telling her off over her believing yuri pretty much had it too easy and was unworthy of being a princess.

Maybe? Yuri is a pretty strong candidate for someone who reached ranker level way before becoming a ranker. karaka? Not so much.

How hasn't yuri show superiority in terms of martial skills? Also, karaka an yuri fought for minutes at the most while the gang was in the hidden floor. And karaka is certainly avoiding physical confrontations with her since the fight at the name hunt station. There is no scenario where current karaka is more skilled than yuri at least.

 

[Wha]

. And karaka is certainly avoiding physical confrontations with her since the fight at the name hunt station.

the fact that he could even do that says tons about his and her skills. Yuri punches are no joke, ask cheonhee. Yet he managed to doge all of them, apart from the first one. The only reason he was injured (at the least for us to see) in their first fight was kranos, a weapon that is supposed to kill a high ranker.

There is no scenario where current karaka is more skilled than yuri at least.

he can read the memories of the dead, was able to block one nuclear punch head on, despite the vast difference in their physical abilities.
Yeah, he couldn't damage her, but that's not a problem of skill, but of power. Look at Bam when he first learned the flare wave explosion. He learned the skill, but didn't had the power to back it up to destroy that golem thing.
Overall he showed a brighter varity of skills, whereas Yuri just punches her way through or uses her rose shower. I would go that far as to compare her to kallavan (relying on their body, incredible defense), whereas karaka is more of a technician. I wouldn't find it strange if even his martial arts technique were on another level compared to hers, since he learned it from Jinsung, a technican, whereas Yuri seems to be the "just break that thing" type.

 

[kkck]

the fact that he could even do that says tons about his and her skills. Yuri punches are no joke, ask cheonhee. Yet he managed to doge all of them, apart from the first one. The only reason he was injured (at the least for us to see) in their first fight was kranos, a weapon that is supposed to kill a high ranker.


he can read the memories of the dead, was able to block one nuclear punch head on, despite the vast difference in their physical abilities.
Yeah, he couldn't damage her, but that's not a problem of skill, but of power. Look at Bam when he first learned the flare wave explosion. He learned the skill, but didn't had the power to back it up to destroy that golem thing.
Overall he showed a brighter varity of skills, whereas Yuri just punches her way through or uses her rose shower. I would go that far as to compare her to kallavan (relying on their body, incredible defense), whereas karaka is more of a technician. I wouldn't find it strange if even his martial arts technique were on another level compared to hers, since he learned it from Jinsung, a technican, whereas Yuri seems to be the "just break that thing" type.

Only kranos? Karaka straight up said that a few more punches from yuri and he is done for. The only reason karaka exists right now is because of his spells shenanigans which make him immortal. Otherwise he doesn't hold a candle to yuri in terms of shinsoo, strength, speed, stamina, endurance or skill.

So? Those were framed as things scouts can do. Yuri has been shown excellent analytical abilities in battle. In a "there is method to her madness" kinda way. Add to that, you are still ignoring something important... Add to that, you are comparing a fighter who fights for his life every two minutes against yuri against whom most enemies in the series have been bugs on a windshield (barring kallavan against whom she and the others there didn't go all out and hell joe who took away her shinsoo control). And even then yuri has shown highly advanced and powerful shinsoo control, easily enough to dwarf a microbe like karaka, and competence with a variety of weapons. Karaka has his merits of course but comparing him to a high ranker like yuri... Absurd.

 

[Wha]

Only kranos? Karaka straight up said that a few more punches from yuri and he is done for. The only reason karaka exists right now is because of his spells shenanigans which make him immortal. Otherwise he doesn't hold a candle to yuri in terms of shinsoo, strength, speed, stamina, endurance or skill.

So? Those were framed as things scouts can do. Yuri has been shown excellent analytical abilities in battle. In a "there is method to her madness" kinda way. Add to that, you are still ignoring something important... Add to that, you are comparing a fighter who fights for his life every two minutes against yuri against whom most enemies in the series have been bugs on a windshield (barring kallavan against whom she and the others there didn't go all out and hell joe who took away her shinsoo control). And even then yuri has shown highly advanced and powerful shinsoo control, easily enough to dwarf a microbe like karaka, and competence with a variety of weapons. Karaka has his merits of course but comparing him to a high ranker like yuri... Absurd.

Your are talking about if's - if he would have been hit. He wasn't. The only thing was the rose shower, that killed his temporary body. I would also argue that Karaka is one of the smarter fighters, meaning that if he hadn't his immortality armor, i think he would have acted differently.

You asked where he is more skilled, i gave you an answer. Where did Yuri show some finesse? She waltzed threw every opponent she had with brute force, or at least tried to.
Remember her igniting two of the 13th months, despite being warned about the consequences? That's Yuri.

First of, we don't know if it was a two minutes fight, and i doubt it (Bam and co started to evacuate from the station when the fight had already started.
Second, we aren't discussing if yuri is stronger right now. I agree. I disagree if you say she is more skilled. and skill and power are two different things.
Let a 100 dan karate ant fight against a zero experience elefant. Yuri is the elefant. Stronger and more durable (right now), but not more skilled.
And again, how is karaka supposed to catch up, if he wasn't at the least at her level at the end of his regular days? Or his talent is like Bam's, that makes everything up with his rate of growth. Although i seriously doubt it.

 

[hblock]

Only kranos? Karaka straight up said that a few more punches from yuri and he is done for. The only reason karaka exists right now is because of his spells shenanigans which make him immortal. Otherwise he doesn't hold a candle to yuri in terms of shinsoo, strength, speed, stamina, endurance or skill.

The only two things which put Yuri above Karaka in their fight are Kranos and Rose Shower. Without them, the fight was well balanced, Karaka coudn't injure Yuri but Yuri couldn't bypass WoD bangs and engage Karaka entirely in melee in which she has the upper hand.
In fact, even Kranos isn't really a game changer under neutral conditions. It can be only used once a day and it was noted that Karaka could've dodged the blast if he wanted.

 

[kkck]

The only two things which put Yuri above Karaka in their fight are Kranos and Rose Shower. Without them, the fight was well balanced, Karaka coudn't injure Yuri but Yuri couldn't bypass WoD bangs and engage Karaka entirely in melee in which she has the upper hand.
In fact, even Kranos isn't really a game changer under neutral conditions. It can be only used once a day and it was noted that Karaka could've dodged the blast if he wanted.

The current situation with karaka is that he would be unable to inflict the most microscopic of scratches on yuri even if he fired his most powerful fully charged attack at her while she is sleeping and her guard is down. Karaka's chances to win against yuri are literally zero. Not 20% or 10%, just zero. He can't last against her in close range, he can't inflict damage at a range. His WoD accumulated damage that yuri inflicted on it and when karaka reflected it back it did literally zero damage. It just barely startled yuri... That's how few fucks yuri gave about karaka. The only thing that can be said about karaka in this fight is that he isn't someone yuri can defeat in a blink of an eye... Which is not the same as him not being a bug on a windshield.

 

[Wha]

That's how few fucks yuri gave about karaka.

She actually gave karaka more credit than you do right now. I am also under the impression that you think that you know her better than she knows herself. She said that karaka might return as her greatest enemy, not anybody else. Yeah, he couldn't put a scratch on her, but she knows that better than you. She stil thought that. And she thought it was incredibly for him to be able to stop her. So Yuri herself sees that matter different than you.

 

[kkck]

She actually gave karaka more credit than you do right now. I am also under the impression that you think that you know her better than she knows herself. She said that karaka might return as her greatest enemy, not anybody else. Yeah, he couldn't put a scratch on her, but she knows that better than you. She stil thought that. And she thought it was incredibly for him to be able to stop her. So Yuri herself sees that matter different than you.

I don't disagree with the notion that karaka could eventually at some point be that big a threat to her. That's entirely consistent with karaka being a baby slayer. Karaka's potential should be up there with the big guys like corp commanders or slayers. But that's also a different thing from karaka currently not being a bug on a windshield. What karaka has actually evidenced in the series is that his current chances against yuri are literally and precisely 0%. Not even 0.00001% if he gets lucky....

 

[hblock]

Karaka's chances to win against yuri are literally zero.

You're comparing Karaka's firepower to Yuri's defense, just two stats, and that's not how the things work from my perspective. Not to mention that in Yuri's case, durability and shinsu resistance are set much higher that her other stats.
Similarly, having zero chance of winning doesn't equate a massive difference overall.

If you remove RS, Yuri can't hurt Karaka (the single usage Kranos can be dodged). She can certainly injure him if she punches directly with a NP but that's only IF she manages to touch him. As we know, her speed and power aren't even remotely enough to bypass the WoD layer and engage Karaka in CQC.
So, although she can injure Karaka in melee, it's impossible for Yuri to engage him there because of WoD.

Now, If you remove the context involving regulars, under neutral conditions, the name hunt station fight was mainly a tossup. It's impossible for Karaka to harm Yuri but it's also impossible for Yuri to engage him in melee fight (because of WoD), thus it's impossible for her to put a scratch on him as well.

Furtheremore, I didn't even mention Karaka's far stronger self destruction (which he used against Urek). Nothing actually indicate that Yuri can tank an explosion of this calibre.

 

[Wha]

I don't disagree with the notion that karaka could eventually at some point be that big a threat to her.

But we are discussing their level as regulars, not as of right now. Given what we know, it is entirely plausible that he was stronger befor becoming a ranker than she was before becoming a ranker. Yuri is soooo much talent, it is absurd to believe that anyone would be able to catch up to her with this kind of difference in strength, as you pointed out several times already, if he has the same talent as her. So he has to be more talented, otherwise there is just no way (at least i don't see it).

 

[kkck]

But we are discussing their level as regulars, not as of right now. Given what we know, it is entirely plausible that he was stronger befor becoming a ranker than she was before becoming a ranker. Yuri is soooo much talent, it is absurd to believe that anyone would be able to catch up to her with this kind of difference in strength, as you pointed out several times already, if he has the same talent as her. So he has to be more talented, otherwise there is just no way (at least i don't see it).

If we are talking about rose shower, quadrado's needle or WoD then it's definitely not about them as regulars. No way they had anything like that as regulars... Best case scenario they would have severely downgraded version. Everything about them would be severely downgraded. Who knows what karaka was like without his armor or with a substantially downgraded one.

Talent wise, who knows. Yuri has a bit of an absurd genetic lottery but it's not outright impossible for karaka to be comparable in that regard. That said, I would make the case that yuri's talent is far easier to abuse as a regular. Yuri as a regular has been framed as... androsi on steroids. Times ten. With a temper. For regulars it's just inherently difficult to overcome a princess' innate toughness. Let alone someone like yuri who has ha toughness boosted by zahard's toughness and then ha reinforcement techniques. While it's impossible to prove given the available evidence I wouldn't put my money on floor 133 karaka against floor 133 yuri at least. I also am inclined to thinking yuri is just more talented than karaka in general.

 

[Wha]

If we are talking about rose shower, quadrado's needle or WoD then it's definitely not about them as regulars. No way they had anything like that as regulars... Best case scenario they would have severely downgraded version. Everything about them would be severely downgraded. Who knows what karaka was like without his armor or with a substantially downgraded one.

Talent wise, who knows. Yuri has a bit of an absurd genetic lottery but it's not outright impossible for karaka to be comparable in that regard. That said, I would make the case that yuri's talent is far easier to abuse as a regular. Yuri as a regular has been framed as... androsi on steroids. Times ten. With a temper. For regulars it's just inherently difficult to overcome a princess' innate toughness. Let alone someone like yuri who has ha toughness boosted by zahard's toughness and then ha reinforcement techniques. While it's impossible to prove given the available evidence I wouldn't put my money on floor 133 karaka against floor 133 yuri at least. I also am inclined to thinking yuri is just more talented than karaka in general.

Well,we don't really know much about them as regulars, so we have to take something to discuss them. WoD could be from his regular days and he later combined it with the armor. We do know that Data Maschenny already had some pretty badass things. Maybe his WoD has got something to do with his shinsoo quality? We do know that he has his slayer postiion not because of his immense power, but mainly because of his potential. So, if you really have Yuri|>>>>>Karaka (at the end of the regular days), him ever catching up is unlikely. Why should his growth suddenly explode after becoming a ranker? Explode to such a degree that Yuri thinks he will catch up someday? Exept for Bam, there aren't any examples of people having that kind of growth.

You keep ignoring the tower - the older, the stronger. To close that gap, you need more talent and at the least the same potential. You can't wait for them to turn old and loose some of their power and skill. It works in the other direction.

But at this point, i doubt that we will agree on that topic.

 

[kkck]

Well,we don't really know much about them as regulars, so we have to take something to discuss them. WoD could be from his regular days and he later combined it with the armor. We do know that Data Maschenny already had some pretty badass things. Maybe his WoD has got something to do with his shinsoo quality? We do know that he has his slayer postiion not because of his immense power, but mainly because of his potential. So, if you really have Yuri|>>>>>Karaka (at the end of the regular days), him ever catching up is unlikely. Why should his growth suddenly explode after becoming a ranker? Explode to such a degree that Yuri thinks he will catch up someday? Exept for Bam, there aren't any examples of people having that kind of growth.

You keep ignoring the tower - the older, the stronger. To close that gap, you need more talent and at the least the same potential. You can't wait for them to turn old and loose some of their power and skill. It works in the other direction.

But at this point, i doubt that we will agree on that topic.

It's pretty unlikely WoD could come from his regular days. That's a lot of bangs for a regular... and even then, it would be a severely downgraded version that he could use as a regular. My assumption actually was that WoD was related to spells. Since the technique he used to revive himself at the hell train was connected to WoD.

Welp, it's a function of time and talent. With the consideration that time is unlimited but talent is fixed since birth. My guess is that once folk approach their limit their growth simply stalls. So there is a chance for the young but it involves playing the long game.

I mean, you do have to consider that to begin with yuri got the jackpot in terms of genetic lottery. Everything about her is absurd and more so if you consider her very young age by ranker standards. Let alone high rankers... Granddaughter of two family heads, her ha family traits seem by all accounts extremely potent, is competent at using weapons (which she probably gets from her ari side) and has incredible shinsoo control. With yuri's position I would make the point that the notion that she doesn't have reinforcement or is like the children of her clan jinsung mentioned is absurd. Meaning she hasn't overtly used her clan's main asset in fights before. And all of that compounded by zahard's blood. In terms of sheer talent yuri is absurd and probably on the higher end when it comes to high rankers in general. Yuri probably isn't adori level in terms of talent given that adori did apparently defeat a high level ranker as a regular... But even then. For context, I would argue that yuri has the potential to dwarf kallavan in terms of physical might. Karaka even having the potential to match kallavan would probably be enough to justify his existence as a slayer.

 

[Wha]

It's pretty unlikely WoD could come from his regular days. That's a lot of bangs for a regular... and even then, it would be a severely downgraded version that he could use as a regular. My assumption actually was that WoD was related to spells. Since the technique he used to revive himself at the hell train was connected to WoD.

Welp, it's a function of time and talent. With the consideration that time is unlimited but talent is fixed since birth. My guess is that once folk approach their limit their growth simply stalls. So there is a chance for the young but it involves playing the long game.

I mean, you do have to consider that to begin with yuri got the jackpot in terms of genetic lottery. Everything about her is absurd and more so if you consider her very young age by ranker standards. Let alone high rankers... Granddaughter of two family heads, her ha family traits seem by all accounts extremely potent, is competent at using weapons (which she probably gets from her ari side) and has incredible shinsoo control. With yuri's position I would make the point that the notion that she doesn't have reinforcement or is like the children of her clan jinsung mentioned is absurd. Meaning she hasn't overtly used her clan's main asset in fights before. And all of that compounded by zahard's blood. In terms of sheer talent yuri is absurd and probably on the higher end when it comes to high rankers in general. Yuri probably isn't adori level in terms of talent given that adori did apparently defeat a high level ranker as a regular... But even then. For context, I would argue that yuri has the potential to dwarf kallavan in terms of physical might. Karaka even having the potential to match kallavan would probably be enough to justify his existence as a slayer.

Welp, does it really matter what i say? I feel like arguing about the existence of god. You give Karaka less credit than Yuri herself, so that it fits your narrative. No matter what i say, i am pretty sure that in your opinioin, Yuri will always be stronger and more talented and....so be it. Eidt: and was always stronger.

 

[kkck]

Welp, does it really matter what i say? I feel like arguing about the existence of god. You give Karaka less credit than Yuri herself, so that it fits your narrative. No matter what i say, i am pretty sure that in your opinioin, Yuri will always be stronger and more talented and....so be it. Eidt: and was always stronger.

Welp, sure? I mean, we hardly have any facts on this issue. And talent in this story is fixed and no amount of hard work can change that. In that sense the only ambiguity we have is that SIU hasn't actually stated who is the more talented of the two.