One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

There’s not one of luffy enemies that has kept up with his outstanding growth
Lucci and luffy aren’t rivals or reflections of one another

 

[DeadlyBeast]

idk, but CP9 were pretty strong, and that helped them defend against most pirates and be seen as dependable and reliable.

I think they were pretty weak. CP9 lost to a small crew of rookie pirates from Paradise and ended up getting Enies Lobby destroyed. No characters that have been shown as being members of Ciphor Pol has been impressive in raw fighting ability compared to the overall OP world. CP0 is the last chance at this but I'm guessing they'll disappoint

 

[HereNThere]

In the context of the series' world, CP9 are pretty strong.

They are a significant threat to anyone in Paradise honestly outside of the Shichibukai. Especially when you do take into consideration that they don't even focus on direct combat usually.

They lost to Super Rookies, sure, but I'd chalk that up more to the fact that the Strawhats are just a high-quality crew than anything. Kidd and Law are Luffy's rivals, but I highly doubt they'd pull off the same stunts with their crew.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Changing the subject, but it makes me remember one thing I read long ago about one of the greats holes in OP history.

Why we don’t have so many strong bounty hunters in a universe where pirates with bounty’s of one billion are around? Because it’s a lot more easier to have the same strength of a pirate of 50 millions and hunt weak pirates and live with the money they earn that way.

After I read that, never more I questioned why we don’t have strong bounty hunters in the history.

Right lol. But IMO having no prominent bounty hunters is one of the few missed opportunities in this manga. Like the Bounty Hunter doesn't need to be Yonko tier but have a few strong enough to hunt semi prominent New World Pirates.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 10, 2021 ---

but there's no limit to how many characters we can have, as long as they're few. To us it may look like many but in the OPverse, the opposite since there'd be over thousands of people like that.

idk, but CP9 were pretty strong, and that helped them defend against most pirates and be seen as dependable and reliable.

CP9 was strong but they were a far shout from being top tier. They were strong relative to the pre-New World seas.

On the topic of Lucci, if he's as strong as the movies show, he's on par with some Yonko commanders.

 

[M3J]

I think they were pretty weak. CP9 lost to a small crew of rookie pirates from Paradise and ended up getting Enies Lobby destroyed. No characters that have been shown as being members of Ciphor Pol has been impressive in raw fighting ability compared to the overall OP world. CP0 is the last chance at this but I'm guessing they'll disappoint

I think that says more for the quality of the Straw Hats than it does for CP9, especially considering how close Lucci came to winning, and how Usopp was the one who got Luffy to get back up and keep fighting. I mean, you could say that about Crocodile too considering he had a powerful fruit, but he showed that he was much better way later in the story, probably being one of the few who was still standing after Marineford on the pirates' side.

Right lol. But IMO having no prominent bounty hunters is one of the few missed opportunities in this manga. Like the Bounty Hunter doesn't need to be Yonko tier but have a few strong enough to hunt semi prominent New World Pirates.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 10, 2021 ---

CP9 was strong but they were a far shout from being top tier. They were strong relative to the pre-New World seas.

On the topic of Lucci, if he's as strong as the movies show, he's on par with some Yonko commanders.

Not top tier, true, but they were still able to challenge the crew and could have beaten any of STraw Hats' opponents so far pre-timeskip. There's no reason to believe CP0 is any weaker, especially as top agents.

 

[Fallou]

Some Lucci fans think he's been keeping pace with Luffy in growth and is still roughly equal to him and he'll be Fleet Admiral at EOS and Luffy's Garp.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 10, 2021 ---

A loss is a loss.

You're absolutely right.
BM lost to King, King is above Yonko level.
So is Jinbei, obviously, since he pushed her out of the ship

 

[Fox666]

There’s not one of luffy enemies that has kept up with his outstanding growth
Lucci and luffy aren’t rivals or reflections of one another

How strong Lucci is will depend of the plot.

If Lucci is supposed to fight Luffy after he defeated Kaido, then he's Yonko level.

If not, and he clashes with the Samurai or someone else, then Luffy left him in the dust.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Right lol. But IMO having no prominent bounty hunters is one of the few missed opportunities in this manga. Like the Bounty Hunter doesn't need to be Yonko tier but have a few strong enough to hunt semi prominent New World Pirates.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 10, 2021 ---

CP9 was strong but they were a far shout from being top tier. They were strong relative to the pre-New World seas.

On the topic of Lucci, if he's as strong as the movies show, he's on par with some Yonko commanders.

I think that says more for the quality of the Straw Hats than it does for CP9, especially considering how close Lucci came to winning, and how Usopp was the one who got Luffy to get back up and keep fighting. I mean, you could say that about Crocodile too considering he had a powerful fruit, but he showed that he was much better way later in the story, probably being one of the few who was still standing after Marineford on the pirates' side.



Not top tier, true, but they were still able to challenge the crew and could have beaten any of STraw Hats' opponents so far pre-timeskip. There's no reason to believe CP0 is any weaker, especially as top agents.

CP9 were strong , jinbei respected their strength
The thing is the new world is just filled with monsters

How strong Lucci is will depend of the plot.

If Lucci is supposed to fight Luffy after he defeated Kaido, then he's Yonko level.

If not, and he clashes with the Samurai or someone else, then Luffy left him in the dust.

Lucci isn’t a concern for luffy
They’ve got no build up
It’s really the admirals and yonkou left for luffy
Maybe im sama and the gorosei

There’s really no rivalry Anumroe

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think that says more for the quality of the Straw Hats than it does for CP9, especially considering how close Lucci came to winning, and how Usopp was the one who got Luffy to get back up and keep fighting. I mean, you could say that about Crocodile too considering he had a powerful fruit, but he showed that he was much better way later in the story, probably being one of the few who was still standing after Marineford on the pirates' side.

The Strawhats were strong at the time for rookie pirates, hence why they were considered super rookies but were still weak compared to actual top tiers. Just look what happened to them when fighting Pacafista. CP9 who were considered the strongest in history are nothing compared to even a few Pacafista so I'll stick with they were weak compared to actual powerful people

I'd also say Crocodile is weak if all we had was the Alabasta arc. But Oda made him relevant again, though even then he wasn't anything compared to the top tier who fought at Marineford.

 

[M3J]

The Strawhats were strong at the time for rookie pirates, hence why they were considered super rookies but were still weak compared to actual top tiers. Just look what happened to them when fighting Pacafista. CP9 who were considered the strongest in history are nothing compared to even a few Pacafista so I'll stick with they were weak compared to actual powerful people

I'd also say Crocodile is weak if all we had was the Alabasta arc. But Oda made him relevant again, though even then he wasn't anything compared to the top tier who fought at Marineford.

Yep, but CP9 could have possibly fared better since they fight differently. At least, Lucci and possibly Kaku.

But also, Luffy figured out Crocodile's weakness, and if it weren't for that and Robin and a drop of water, Luffy would have been dead. Crocodile may not be Emperor/Admiral tier, but he is near the top given that he performed decently. Saved Jinbei and Luffy from Akainu and fought Doflamingo, whereas Luffy would have been killed without G4.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

sanji durability used to be his weakest feature , and now he might be the toughest strawhat

 

[Luke Beifong]

In my opinion, Lucci is pretty strong, even for NW standards. I put him over Hody and Ceasar (the first two opponents Luffy have in NW if I’m not wrong) in terms of strength. Luffy is a genius and grows a lot in all his fights. But I don’t think he still a treat for Luffy, if he appears again, Jimbe is more than enough to defeat him. The problem will be Jabra and Kaku. How will fight them, Brook and Franky? I highly doubt that.

 

[I Am Atomic]

One of the post I saw, said that CP9 were plenty strong, and only lost because SHPs had a quality crew. But is that true tho? Would the other super rookies have fared better?

Personally, I don't think they were that strong. Any logia users could have destroyed CP9 because they didn't know haki.
Law could annihilate them because you need haki to stand a chance against his fruit.
And anybody with decent haki from NW could have destroyed through the entire CP9 force singlehandedly.

Thoughts?

 

[grey matter]

Where do you have current Sanji at? Safe to say he is YC1 tier now?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 11, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 11, 2021 ---

One of the post I saw, said that CP9 were plenty strong, and only lost because SHPs had a quality crew. But is that true tho? Would the other super rookies have fared better?

Personally, I don't think they were that strong. Any logia users could have destroyed CP9 because they didn't know haki.
Law could annihilate them because you need haki to stand a chance against his fruit.
And anybody with decent haki from NW could have destroyed through the entire CP9 force singlehandedly.

Thoughts?

Law is OP, he probably would've solo'd

Kid isn't OP, but Kid has someone like Zoro in his crew, with Killer.

Not really sure about the rest of the teammates of Kid/Law, but all of them can't be complete fodder right?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Yep, but CP9 could have possibly fared better since they fight differently. At least, Lucci and possibly Kaku.

But also, Luffy figured out Crocodile's weakness, and if it weren't for that and Robin and a drop of water, Luffy would have been dead. Crocodile may not be Emperor/Admiral tier, but he is near the top given that he performed decently. Saved Jinbei and Luffy from Akainu and fought Doflamingo, whereas Luffy would have been killed without G4.

My problem with Crocodile is how Oda essentially gave him a free power up of unknown quantity. The way I think about it is, Crocodile has a powerful DF that also allowed him to avoid getting hit by rookies. Luffy figured out a way around this with water and was able to hit him. Once Crocodile lost his logia immunity he became just another rookie level pirate, reminiscent of that warning Pekoms gave about cocky logias coming into new world and not lasting long. Whatever way you want to read things at the end of the day Luffy's physical strength back in Alabasta was enough to finish off Crocodile even without gears.

On the other hand, post time skip Luffy with G2 and haki was not able to hurt Doflamingo. He was explicitly told his attacks were quick but lacked the power to do serious damage. So either everything we saw in Marineford from Crocodile against people like Doffy should not be taken seriously since they were skirmishes and not actual fights or we have to accept the fact the Crocodile post prison is leagues stronger than the one we saw in Alabasta. I go with the latter, and think Oda has provided Crocodile a massive boost in all his stats just so he can be relevant to the plot again.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 11, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 11, 2021 ---

One of the post I saw, said that CP9 were plenty strong, and only lost because SHPs had a quality crew. But is that true tho? Would the other super rookies have fared better?

Personally, I don't think they were that strong. Any logia users could have destroyed CP9 because they didn't know haki.
Law could annihilate them because you need haki to stand a chance against his fruit.
And anybody with decent haki from NW could have destroyed through the entire CP9 force singlehandedly.

Thoughts?

The moment Pacifistas were introduced and shown to be stronger than CP9 it was over for them in my mind. Since we also saw other Supernova fight and defeat these same Pacifistas, I'd reckon they could have beat CP9 too. And to make matters worst, Pacifistas were only strong enough to take on New World pirate foot soldiers during Marineford. After that I just think how badly CP9 would get fodderized by any decent fighter with haki.

 

[LaGOAT]

Lucci in my eyes in on who’s who’s lvl

 

[HereNThere]

All my thoughts about CP9 are specifically in the context of Paradise. They are strong within the Pre Time Skip bubble.

Any logia users could have destroyed CP9 because they didn't know haki.

Any Logia user would stomp any Paradise crew, including every single Supernova crew as they didn't know haki either. That doesn't mean they were weak.

In the context of Paradise, the CP9 are strong and could sweep most crews in that spot in the seas.

While CP9 as a whole didn't demonstrate haki, Lucci is still capable of damaging one. He was a master of all forms of Rokushiki, which means he had access to Rokugon. The attack that Luffy compared to Impact Dials, which held the ability to damage Enel, a Logia user.

That's not to say he would win against stronger Logia, he wouldn't, but against Caribou and Smoker, who was probably around his level at that point? He'd do fine.

Law could annihilate them because you need haki to stand a chance against his fruit.

Law's abilities are strong, but it does have its weak points. It's still possible to dodge and juke his attack if you are physically capable enough. Lucci could probably do decently against Pre Time Skip Law.

And anybody with decent haki from NW could have destroyed through the entire CP9 force singlehandedly.

Most New World vets would stomp anyone from Paradise. Any of the low tier participants in the Dressrosa tourney would sweep most crews probably.

Luffy was extremely lucky in the fact that Crocodile and Moriah were outliers of New World vets who should've been significantly stronger than they were portrayed to be.

Since we also saw other Supernova fight and defeat these same Pacifistas, I'd reckon they could have beat CP9 too.

Quick note, the Strawhats as a whole were the only ones shown destroying a Pacifista. Drake and Uroge teamed up against one and were largely ineffective. Kidd and Law's crews teamed up against another, but we never saw the end result, so we don't know if they fought or fled.

Given what the Strawhats had to go through to just defeat one as a team, I'm inclined to believe they fled as soon as they could.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Any Logia user would stomp any Paradise crew, including every single Supernova crew as they didn't know haki either. That doesn't mean they were weak.

Well no because Luffy defeated Crocodile and Enel.

While CP9 as a whole didn't demonstrate haki, Lucci is still capable of damaging one. He was a master of all forms of Rokushiki, which means he had access to Rokugon. The attack that Luffy compared to Impact Dials, which held the ability to damage Enel, a Logia user.

Ummm what you on about? Enel got hit by reject dial because Wiper had sea stone attached to his skates. Read again please.

That's not to say he would win against stronger Logia, he wouldn't, but against Caribou and Smoker, who was probably around his level at that point? He'd do fine.

You cannot win against someone you cannot hit. Even WB will lose to someone he can't hit.

Law's abilities are strong, but it does have its weak points. It's still possible to dodge and juke his attack if you are physically capable enough. Lucci could probably do decently against Pre Time Skip Law.

Nobody has been shown to "juke" out his attacks without haki. If you are in his room, you will most likely get hit and get cut in half. Only stronger haki will save you. Or go outside his range.

Most New World vets would stomp anyone from Paradise. Any of the low tier participants in the Dressrosa tourney would sweep most crews probably.

Yeah so? My discussion was all about someone claiming CP9 to be stronger than what they are. I never claimed the rookie pirates to be strong before TS either.

Luffy was extremely lucky in the fact that Crocodile and Moriah were outliers of New World vets who should've been significantly stronger than they were portrayed to be.

If your reply to my point is "Luffy is extremely lucky" then you will always be right. Luffy is lucky every arc. Take any shonen protagonist, and they are lucky too. Not a good point to make when we are discussing Shonen manga.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Quick note, the Strawhats as a whole were the only ones shown destroying a Pacifista. Drake and Uroge teamed up against one and were largely ineffective. Kidd and Law's crews teamed up against another, but we never saw the end result, so we don't know if they fought or fled.

Given what the Strawhats had to go through to just defeat one as a team, I'm inclined to believe they fled as soon as they could.

Good point, it was only the anime that showed Kidd & Law take one down. My guess is peoples DF powers like Law's should make things like Pacifista or opponents like CP9 pretty useless without haki but OP is definitely inconsistent with how these types of DF powers are shown so no idea how those fights ended up other than the fact all the Supernova managed to get away.

 

[HereNThere]

Well no because Luffy defeated Crocodile and Enel.

Neither of those victories were attributed to haki on Luffy's part, so your initial point is a bit lost now.

Anywho, we saw how Luffy struggled against Crocodile's intangibility, even after discovering his weakness. He lost against him twice before he finally won. I imagine the majority of fights against Crocodile would end like their first one for most people.

Enel in particular had walked through the entire crew at the point already and would've likely done the same to any other crew. Kidd is the only other Supernova I see who'd be able to do something due to his fruit.

So CP9 being ineffective against Logia users doesn't seem to merit them being singled out when most of the stronger non haki weilders in Paradise were equally as ineffective.

Ummm what you on about? Enel got hit by reject dial because Wiper had sea stone attached to his skates. Read again please.

Fair enough. I forgot about that part.

You cannot win against someone you cannot hit. Even WB will lose to someone he can't hit.

As I said, fair enough. Rokugon, Impact Dials, and Fishman Karate have shown to be effective in terms of bypass DF abilities. I was mistakenly under the impression that Wyper did his thing without seastone.

Nobody has been shown to "juke" out his attacks without haki. If you are in his room, you will most likely get hit and get cut in half. Only stronger haki will save you. Or go outside his range.

From what we've seen, Law's abilities require a form of follow through for things to take effect. Even within Room, if you can stay out if the range of swings/motions, you'll be fine. Smoker brought that up during their scuffle and Doffy demonstrated it while dodging Mes.

Yeah so? My discussion was all about someone claiming CP9 to be stronger than what they are. I never claimed the rookie pirates to be strong before TS either.

From what I'm seeing, people were discussing that they were strong in the context of Pre Time Skip. Only one person mentioned Lucci in particular as being New World worthy and even then, they only brought up Hody and Ceasar as viable options, two of the weakest antagonists we've seen in the NW.

I'm fairly certain we're all in agreement that Pre Time Skip CP9 wouldn't last a second against most of actual experienced NW fighters.

If your reply to my point is "Luffy is extremely lucky" then you will always be right. Luffy is lucky every arc. Take any shonen protagonist, and they are lucky too. Not a good point to make when we are discussing Shonen manga.

That particular point wasn't really directed towards you. It was moreso a tangent on where Crocodile and Moriah should've been strength wise given what we know about New World veterans. Even those who've completely lost their way and weakened.