Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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[HereNThere]

Well no because Luffy defeated Crocodile and Enel.

Neither of those victories were attributed to haki on Luffy's part, so your initial point is a bit lost now.

Anywho, we saw how Luffy struggled against Crocodile's intangibility, even after discovering his weakness. He lost against him twice before he finally won. I imagine the majority of fights against Crocodile would end like their first one for most people.

Enel in particular had walked through the entire crew at the point already and would've likely done the same to any other crew. Kidd is the only other Supernova I see who'd be able to do something due to his fruit.

So CP9 being ineffective against Logia users doesn't seem to merit them being singled out when most of the stronger non haki weilders in Paradise were equally as ineffective.

Ummm what you on about? Enel got hit by reject dial because Wiper had sea stone attached to his skates. Read again please.

Fair enough. I forgot about that part.

You cannot win against someone you cannot hit. Even WB will lose to someone he can't hit.

As I said, fair enough. Rokugon, Impact Dials, and Fishman Karate have shown to be effective in terms of bypass DF abilities. I was mistakenly under the impression that Wyper did his thing without seastone.

Nobody has been shown to "juke" out his attacks without haki. If you are in his room, you will most likely get hit and get cut in half. Only stronger haki will save you. Or go outside his range.

From what we've seen, Law's abilities require a form of follow through for things to take effect. Even within Room, if you can stay out if the range of swings/motions, you'll be fine. Smoker brought that up during their scuffle and Doffy demonstrated it while dodging Mes.

Yeah so? My discussion was all about someone claiming CP9 to be stronger than what they are. I never claimed the rookie pirates to be strong before TS either.

From what I'm seeing, people were discussing that they were strong in the context of Pre Time Skip. Only one person mentioned Lucci in particular as being New World worthy and even then, they only brought up Hody and Ceasar as viable options, two of the weakest antagonists we've seen in the NW.

I'm fairly certain we're all in agreement that Pre Time Skip CP9 wouldn't last a second against most of actual experienced NW fighters.

If your reply to my point is "Luffy is extremely lucky" then you will always be right. Luffy is lucky every arc. Take any shonen protagonist, and they are lucky too. Not a good point to make when we are discussing Shonen manga.

That particular point wasn't really directed towards you. It was moreso a tangent on where Crocodile and Moriah should've been strength wise given what we know about New World veterans. Even those who've completely lost their way and weakened.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Neither of those victories were attributed to haki on Luffy's part, so your initial point is a bit lost now.

Anywho, we saw how Luffy struggled against Crocodile's intangibility, even after discovering his weakness. He lost against him twice before he finally won. I imagine the majority of fights against Crocodile would end like their first one for most people.

Enel in particular had walked through the entire crew at the point already and would've likely done the same to any other crew. Kidd is the only other Supernova I see who'd be able to do something due to his fruit.

So CP9 being ineffective against Logia users doesn't seem to merit them being singled out when most of the stronger non haki weilders in Paradise were equally as ineffective.

Ok you are right, but this is where we go off topic. My point was that other crews and logia could beat CP9, not just the straw hats.
Your point being that, logia could beat those rookie pirates too.
Still doesn't disprove my point. CP9 still gets defeated by other crews other than SHP.

The only reason I addressed Crocodile and Enel is because you asked for names.

From what we've seen, Law's abilities require a form of follow through for things to take effect. Even within Room, if you can stay out if the range of swings/motions, you'll be fine. Smoker brought that up during their scuffle and Doffy demonstrated it while dodging Mes.

Well Smoker made the point but couldn't execute it. Doflamingo could because he was considerably stronger than Law. Doflamingo got cut many times but he used Haki to protect himself.
Lucci can't do that against Law. And if he wants to stay outside his range, that's worse for him because he is a melee fighter.

From what I'm seeing, people were discussing that they were strong in the context of Pre Time Skip. Only one person mentioned Lucci in particular as being New World worthy and even then, they only brought up Hody and Ceasar as viable options, two of the weakest antagonists we've seen in the NW.

I'm fairly certain we're all in agreement that Pre Time Skip CP9 wouldn't last a second against most of actual experienced NW fighters.

Let me reword my discussion point for you:

Question "can any other crew or users could defeat CP9 pre TS other than SHPs?"

 

[HereNThere]

Still doesn't disprove my point. CP9 still gets defeated by other crews other than SHP.

The only reason I addressed Crocodile and Enel is because you asked for names.

Possibly, but the number isn't big.

I don't recall doing so.

Well Smoker made the point but couldn't execute it. Doflamingo could because he was considerably stronger than Law. Doflamingo got cut many times but he used Haki to protect himself.

Lucci can't do that against Law. And if he wants to stay outside his range, that's worse for him because he is a melee fighter.

He did it a couple times, if I recall correctly.

That's my point with Doffy. His physical abilities were higher than Law's, so he could outmaneuver him and his fruit. He didn't use haki to defend against Mes, since it managed to cut him, but he still dodged it point blank.

I think Lucci's physicality would be enough to allow him to dodge Law's slashes within his Room. I'm not saying Lucci would win, but I definitely don't think it'd be an easy win for Law.

Question "can any other crew or users could defeat CP9 pre TS other than SHPs?"

As I said, probably, but the number is small in my opinion. CP9 just has more people who are known quantities compared to the non Strawhat or Shichibukai crews.

We can match up Captains to Lucci all afternoon, but you still have the other 6 remaining, 2 of whom are still particularly strong. On the flipside, the other crews have a bunch of random for the most part. And the few we do know about, we don't know their capabilities.

Sure, Kidd has Killer, but what's Heat and Wire bringing to the table?

Or Bepo and Jean Bart in Law's case? Its hard to assume that all those crews are comparable in quality to the Strawhats.

I don't see the majority of Supernova doing as well as the Strawhats in a similar situation because of that. And I don't see the Captains soloing all the CP9 members at that point in the story.

 

[I Am Atomic]

I don't recall doing so.

I was wrong then. Apologies

He did it a couple times, if I recall correctly.

That's my point with Doffy. His physical abilities were higher than Law's, so he could outmaneuver him and his fruit. He didn't use haki to defend against Mes, since it managed to cut him, but he still dodged it point blank.

I think Lucci's physicality would be enough to allow him to dodge Law's slashes within his Room. I'm not saying Lucci would win, but I definitely don't think it'd be an easy win for Law.

We see it differently here. So I will stop it at that.

As I said, probably, but the number is small in my opinion. CP9 just has more people who are known quantities compared to the non Strawhat or Shichibukai crews.

We can match up Captains to Lucci all afternoon, but you still have the other 6 remaining, 2 of whom are still particularly strong. On the flipside, the other crews have a bunch of random for the most part. And the few we do know about, we don't know their capabilities.

Sure, Kidd has Killer, but what's Heat and Wire bringing to the table?

Or Bepo and Jean Bart in Law's case? Its hard to assume that all those crews are comparable in quality to the Strawhats.

I don't see the majority of Supernova doing as well as the Strawhats in a similar situation because of that. And I don't see the Captains soloing all the CP9 members at that point in the story.

You are right! This is difficult. Because we have no idea what the others are capable of. I see Kidd's crew winning more than Law's crew would. And Law only had Bepo at that stage since he got the big guy in SA itself.

But you need to remember that SHPs had Franky's help and he wasn't part of the crew. And Luffy defeated 2. Now, why does the match ups have to go exactly that way? You battle according to what you have. Why does it have to be 1v1? Luffy chased down Lucci because of the grudge, but he wasn't holding the key was he? (I don't remember)

Kidd, Killer, Heat and the other guy could overpower others using numbers and gang up on Lucci later. I see it happening.

The only way I see Law winning is if all CP9 members attack him at once. His versatile DF would allow him to use enemies attack against them and win.

 

[Crimson Ice]

I think that says more for the quality of the Straw Hats than it does for CP9, especially considering how close Lucci came to winning, and how Usopp was the one who got Luffy to get back up and keep fighting. I mean, you could say that about Crocodile too considering he had a powerful fruit, but he showed that he was much better way later in the story, probably being one of the few who was still standing after Marineford on the pirates' side.



Not top tier, true, but they were still able to challenge the crew and could have beaten any of STraw Hats' opponents so far pre-timeskip. There's no reason to believe CP0 is any weaker, especially as top agents.

I think that says more for the quality of the Straw Hats than it does for CP9, especially considering how close Lucci came to winning, and how Usopp was the one who got Luffy to get back up and keep fighting. I mean, you could say that about Crocodile too considering he had a powerful fruit, but he showed that he was much better way later in the story, probably being one of the few who was still standing after Marineford on the pirates' side.



Not top tier, true, but they were still able to challenge the crew and could have beaten any of STraw Hats' opponents so far pre-timeskip. There's no reason to believe CP0 is any weaker, especially as top agents.

CP0 can be Doffy's crew but I doubt they do what the Strawhats did aginst the BM pirates/

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 11, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 11, 2021 ---

CP9 were strong , jinbei respected their strength
The thing is the new world is just filled with monsters




Lucci isn’t a concern for luffy
They’ve got no build up
It’s really the admirals and yonkou left for luffy
Maybe im sama and the gorosei

There’s really no rivalry Anumroe

CP9 was weak in general, they were only a threat in the blue seas and paradise. Luffy realized he and his crew were too weak, so they went to train, CP9 were weaker than the Straw Hats. Jinbei gassed them but in the same breath, Jinbei is beating all of pre time skip CP9.

 

[albertwv]

CP9 was strong in Paradise, and in NW they would actually be maybe Colosseum fighters range, maybe lower level BM pirates, weak Headliner levels,.
Specifically Pre TS Lucci he can handle many of NW fighters that we've seen even if he didnt have CoA/CoO.
Pre TS Lucci could defeat:
Hody (before ES),
Enel, CC and Caribou (if they were tangible)
Moria and Pacifistas (it would be hard fight but I can see Lucci winning),
Minotaros from ID
Holdem and some other Beast Pirate headliners like Daifugo,
Mont D'or
Dellinger, Baby 5, Jolla, Bellamy and Buffalo
Sai (before Haki)
Hajrudin (pretty difficult but possible)
Boa Sisters
Pre TS Supernovas: Bonney, Bege, Urouge, Law, Hawkins, Killer (some of them would give Lucci trouble because of their DF but Lucci would be able to defeat them)

This is where I rank Pre TS Lucci compared to the rest of the NW fighters and Paradise fighters. Could any Pre TS Supernova crew fight off all of CP9 like the SHs did? No not Law or Kids crew. Law Kid Drake and maybe Hawkins are the only ones I can see put up a struggle with Lucci and maybe tie maybe. Lucci could def dodge Laws Room.

So yeah I expect CP0 to be strong, Yonko commander levels from 1-3. CP9 were weaker than VAs so I expect CP0 to be stronger but weaker than admirals.
Also I dont count CP0 Lucci fights in the movies.

 

[XXGenesis]

Lucci is kicking Law’s & Kidd ass. His Hybrid form is owning them.

Like what?!

Law’s room was not that big Pre-TS. His attacks are dodge-able; Lucci is faster & stronger, we get a early Showing of what Vergo did to Law.

Kidd can push him to high Diff but Lucci still wins this IMO.

CP0 IMO should be full of Yonkou commander of Yonkou officer lv Spies.

If the WG has extra admiral lv Personnel. Aside from 3 admirals; Fleet Admiral, Garp & Instructor Kong; CPO….Balance of power is BS

ODA isn’t a sloppy writer like that

 

[Crimson Ice]

CP9 was strong in Paradise, and in NW they would actually be maybe Colosseum fighters range, maybe lower level BM pirates, weak Headliner levels,.
Specifically Pre TS Lucci he can handle many of NW fighters that we've seen even if he didnt have CoA/CoO.
Pre TS Lucci could defeat:
Hody (before ES),
Enel, CC and Caribou (if they were tangible)
Moria and Pacifistas (it would be hard fight but I can see Lucci winning),
Minotaros from ID
Holdem and some other Beast Pirate headliners like Daifugo,
Mont D'or
Dellinger, Baby 5, Jolla, Bellamy and Buffalo
Sai (before Haki)
Hajrudin (pretty difficult but possible)
Boa Sisters
Pre TS Supernovas: Bonney, Bege, Urouge, Law, Hawkins, Killer (some of them would give Lucci trouble because of their DF but Lucci would be able to defeat them)

This is where I rank Pre TS Lucci compared to the rest of the NW fighters and Paradise fighters. Could any Pre TS Supernova crew fight off all of CP9 like the SHs did? No not Law or Kids crew. Law Kid Drake and maybe Hawkins are the only ones I can see put up a struggle with Lucci and maybe tie maybe. Lucci could def dodge Laws Room.

So yeah I expect CP0 to be strong, Yonko commander levels from 1-3. CP9 were weaker than VAs so I expect CP0 to be stronger but weaker than admirals.
Also I dont count CP0 Lucci fights in the movies.

Lucci loses to most of this list and gets flat-out stomped by most of the post-TS fighters.

 

[catagon87]

I'm honestly curious how CP0 is going to be a relevant threat to the Straw Hats.

Enies Lobby was a great arc, and Lucci was the first physical hurdle Luffy had to overcome, IMO. Until then most of his opponents were difficult to beat due to Logia abilities / trickery.

CP9/CP0 = CIA / KGB type org.

Admirals/Marines = Army / Red Army type org.

What that tells me is where Akainu / Kizaru / Fujitora are brutish warriors who engage in straightforward tactics and have insane offensive powers, the CP0 agents on average will have a diverse array of abilities that assist in espionage and assassinations. I expect abilities that are in general, hard to deal with. Luffy is not great at "tricky opponents" and unless he can straight up bash his way through those fights are better suited for his problem solvers (Robin, Nami, Usopp).

If you think about it Akainu isn't out making deals with Yonko. He's commanding Marineford and the whole force of the Marines in the New World (and Paradise, but that's less relevant). CP0 is out making black market deals with Yonko, and engaging in horrible trade such as buying children (Linlin, for instance). They're sending assassins to Impel Down to assassinate Doflamingo for what he knows. They're sending spies to Big Mom's Tea Parties, and agents to oversee Kaido's war.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that Lucci had a growth spurt similar to Luffy in the two year time skip. Sure, Luffy trained with Rayleigh, but Lucci also had resources available to him. I can't imagine CP0 doesn't have some harsh new-agent training and mentorship. The marines in general have the likes of Garp, Akainu, Sengoku, etc, to help the new age grow stronger. For all we know Lucci had some super CP0 guy train him for two years. CP0 was able to push Blackbeard out of Baltigo and we don't know the circumstances of that, just that it happened. The Tenryuubito are people who can summon an admiral in the instant they feel threatened. The Five Elders have the confidence to ask Im who Im wants "erased" and they seem fully confident in their ability to carry out Im's wishes. I highly doubt they are about to dispatch Akainu to do so. They are going to use CP0 agents. CP0 has more knowledge about what's actually going on than the Fleet Admiral himself. Certain obvious orders from the Tenryuubito that outrank Admirals themselves have been witnessed in the manga (the razing of Ohara, for instance).

CP0 is an organization that has ties to the likes of Kaido and Joker. They meet with brokers like Mother Caramel to purchase promising "future admiral candidates". They infiltrate Yonko events to gather information. They infiltrate Impel Down to assassinate high-risk prisoners. They attack Yonko when necessary (Blackbeard) and are considered a threat to even the Revolutionary Army. They literally hold a Kingdom back from saving their own Princess (Shirahoshi) from slavery at the hands of a single immature Tenryuubito.

With how this all relates to power levels - many of Luffy's enemies trail off in the distance for whatever reason as he grows stronger and stronger. This isn't the case for everyone. Crocodile showed he was still able to get around Marineford and hold his own. Hell, he even attacked Akainu. Lucci had to escape the WG with the rest of CP9. He's a literal legend in the WG as a hardened, badass spy who can take on anyone. He hasn't been sitting in a prison, or being all "Woe is me". He's been doing active work for the WG and growing stronger. CP0 missions don't exactly sound easy (see previous paragraph). He has likely grown organically, similar to Luffy. I think Lucci could potentially be a serious threat, still, especially to a weakened SHP crew.

 

[kkck]

I know it is fairly difficult to judge just yet, but how strong do you think CP-0 agents are?
THe first 3 we saw in Dressrosa seem pretty strong, stronger than Lucci and Kaku. Honestly I was kinda disappointed that Lucci and Kaku were brought back. Stussy seem weak as well..
CP-0 agents must be at least stronnger than VAs

Hard to say tbh. I am inclined to thinking that plot isn't on lucci's side so he probably has not had the growth of luffy and the other supernova. My guess would be that he is probably just above smoker nowadays.

As for stussy... Welp, we did see her do a long distance shigan with a mere flick of her finger. So she is definitely competent at least.

I think you are underestimating VAs. At least the stronger ones... The rank does have fairly large power gaps but multiple vice admirals have shown to be fairly strong. If we go by SBS there were even vice admiral candidates for the admiral positions after the great war. The stronger vice admirals should be able to contend with yonko commanders outside of the crew's top 3.

 

[albertwv]

Lucci loses to most of this list and gets flat-out stomped by most of the post-TS fighters.

Great explain to me who do you think can defeat Lucci from that list.
I see Pre TS Lucci being as strong or stronger than G2/3 Luffy from Enies Lobby. Yeah Luffy won that fight ultimately, but what did it cost him and look at the circumstances. Besides plot and friendship being a big motivator for Luffys win. Usopp encouraging Luffy. Lucci couldve killed Luffy before Usopp but plotwise he didnt.
So I see Pre TS Lucci = G2/3 Post Enies Lobby/Thriller Bark/Sabaody Luffy. Luffy grew stronger than what he was in EL but just a bit stronger. Just like WCI Luffy was below Kata. Wano Act 1 Luffy was maybe as strong as Kata not until Luffy was imprisoned and trained with Hyogo was he stronger than Kata.

So we see Thriller Bark Luffy defeat Moria, not as difficult as Lucci. Then Luffy was nearly the same strength up until MF war. Sabaody Luffy seem equal to Kid, Law, and maybe Drake. I find it hard to believe those 3 Supernova could defeat Lucci. It would be a difficult battle for all sides.
So Im betting that Lucci was just below MF war Luffy. Thats how strong I see Pre TS Lucci.
MF War Luffy could defeat the list I made with difficulty.

Half of the NW pirates from Yonko-captains to NW fighters we've seen have actually been disappointing. The New Fishman Pirates were painfully weak, besides the fact that the SHs were stronger than ever and that made the fishmen look weak, the fishmen were still weak, they would give Pre TS SHs a challenge.
Beasts Pirates Gifter headliners are a joke. They would pose a problem only to Pre TS SHs.
Colosseum fighters with only a few exception showed promise. Cavendish, Barto, Don Sai, Don C, were strong the rest not so much.

 

[HereNThere]

The jump in power from pre time skip to post is pretty significant.

Like, look what it took for the crew to beat a Pacifista as a whole before the TS and compare it to what Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji were capable of after. That's the baseline for their growth.

Post TS Bellamy is weak as hell in the grand scheme, likely the weakest of Doffy's crew aside from Sugar, but he'd wax Lucci. He's far below Luffy and Doffy, but he still hits significantly harder than anything Lucci could take seeing what he was able to manage against Post Time Skip Luffy.

CP9 would be eaten alive by any front line NW fighter or veteran as many of the major ones are way stronger than Bellamy.

 

[albertwv]

The jump in power from pre time skip to post is pretty significant.

Like, look what it took for the crew to beat a Pacifista as a whole before the TS and compare it to what Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji were capable of after. That's the baseline for their growth.

Post TS Bellamy is weak as hell in the grand scheme, likely the weakest of Doffy's crew aside from Sugar, but he'd wax Lucci. He's far below Luffy and Doffy, but he still hits significantly harder than anything Lucci could take seeing what he was able to manage against Post Time Skip Luffy.

CP9 would be eaten alive by any front line NW fighter or veteran as many of the major ones are way stronger than Bellamy.

Remember Pre TS Pre Gears Base Luffy ohko'd Pre TS Bellamy. You think Bellamy made such a jump to be able to defeat Pre TS Lucci who gave Pre TS Gear Luffy a hellish battle?

Also Post TS Bellamy learned CoA, great but Luffy allowed Bellamy to hit him multiple times without even defending himself. Then again Luffy ohko'd Bellamy once again, this time with CoA base form punch.
Bellamy seemed pretty strong but was still ohko'd in Luffy's weakest form. I believe Pre TS Lucci would give Post TS Base form Luffy some trouble. at least more trouble than Bellamy did.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Great explain to me who do you think can defeat Lucci from that list.
I see Pre TS Lucci being as strong or stronger than G2/3 Luffy from Enies Lobby. Yeah Luffy won that fight ultimately, but what did it cost him and look at the circumstances. Besides plot and friendship being a big motivator for Luffys win. Usopp encouraging Luffy. Lucci couldve killed Luffy before Usopp but plotwise he didnt.
So I see Pre TS Lucci = G2/3 Post Enies Lobby/Thriller Bark/Sabaody Luffy. Luffy grew stronger than what he was in EL but just a bit stronger. Just like WCI Luffy was below Kata. Wano Act 1 Luffy was maybe as strong as Kata not until Luffy was imprisoned and trained with Hyogo was he stronger than Kata.

So we see Thriller Bark Luffy defeat Moria, not as difficult as Lucci. Then Luffy was nearly the same strength up until MF war. Sabaody Luffy seem equal to Kid, Law, and maybe Drake. I find it hard to believe those 3 Supernova could defeat Lucci. It would be a difficult battle for all sides.
So Im betting that Lucci was just below MF war Luffy. Thats how strong I see Pre TS Lucci.
MF War Luffy could defeat the list I made with difficulty.

Half of the NW pirates from Yonko-captains to NW fighters we've seen have actually been disappointing. The New Fishman Pirates were painfully weak, besides the fact that the SHs were stronger than ever and that made the fishmen look weak, the fishmen were still weak, they would give Pre TS SHs a challenge.
Beasts Pirates Gifter headliners are a joke. They would pose a problem only to Pre TS SHs.
Colosseum fighters with only a few exception showed promise. Cavendish, Barto, Don Sai, Don C, were strong the rest not so much.

Lucci loses to:
CC
Moria
Pacifstas (the entire Straw Hate crew barely beat one yet you think Lucci can by himself?)
Mont D'or
Baby 5
Dellinger
Bellamy
Sai
Hardjun
Pre TS Law
Urouge could potentially win too.

Half of the NW pirates would massacre Lucci, anyone who can somewhat give Luffy a challenge scaled above a Pacifsta (and by extension Lucci) . Rob Lucci is on the same level as ES Luffy. Any prominent fighter in a Yonko or Doffy's crew can definitely handle someone who can't beat a pacifista. Even Bellamy was able to draw blood from Luffy despite Luffy using arms haki to defend.

 

[LaGOAT]

People are Lucci to luffy in which is a mistake cause luffy growth is fastest in the whole series. But I do beleive lucci gotten stronger IMO I don’t think he YC lvl. He will lose to DD/cracker/jack YC3 lvl but I do think he is around who’s who’s lvl

 

[HereNThere]

Depending on how much you want to read into the movies that Oda has input in, Lucci is comparable to Sabo on some level. But then the question from there is where you scale Sabo. I'd go ahead and say Lucci has the strength of a YC anyway.

Luffy has the fastest growth rate, but Lucci is also considered a genius in his own right was ascended to become the strongest CP9 agent in history. I wouldn't be surprised if he was capable of a significant spike in growth as well. Not on Luffy's level, but still respectable potentially.

 

[LaGOAT]

Lucci loses to:
CC
Moria
Pacifstas (the entire Straw Hate crew barely beat one yet you think Lucci can by himself?)
Mont D'or
Baby 5
Dellinger
Bellamy
Sai
Hardjun
Pre TS Law
Urouge could potentially win too.

Half of the NW pirates would massacre Lucci, anyone who can somewhat give Luffy a challenge scaled above a Pacifsta (and by extension Lucci) . Rob Lucci is on the same level as ES Luffy. Any prominent fighter in a Yonko or Doffy's crew can definitely handle someone who can't beat a pacifista. Even Bellamy was able to draw blood from Luffy despite Luffy using arms haki to defend.

Although I agree

Depending on how much you want to read into the movies that Oda has input in, Lucci is comparable to Sabo on some level. But then the question from there is where you scale Sabo. I'd go ahead and say Lucci has the strength of a YC anyway.

Luffy has the fastest growth rate, but Lucci is also considered a genius in his own right was ascended to become the strongest CP9 agent in history. I wouldn't be surprised if he was capable of a significant spike in growth as well. Not on Luffy's level, but still respectable potentially.

is that even canon?

 

[albertwv]

Lucci loses to:
CC
Moria
Pacifstas (the entire Straw Hate crew barely beat one yet you think Lucci can by himself?)
Mont D'or
Baby 5
Dellinger
Bellamy
Sai
Hardjun
Pre TS Law
Urouge could potentially win too.

Half of the NW pirates would massacre Lucci, anyone who can somewhat give Luffy a challenge scaled above a Pacifsta (and by extension Lucci) . Rob Lucci is on the same level as ES Luffy. Any prominent fighter in a Yonko or Doffy's crew can definitely handle someone who can't beat a pacifista. Even Bellamy was able to draw blood from Luffy despite Luffy using arms haki to defend.

CC - i mentioned if he was tangible Pre TS Lucci would kill him/ if Lucci had CoA back then.
Moria - he gave Gear 2/3 Luffy a challenge in Thriller Bark but Moria did not push Luffy as much as Lucci did. I honestly believe Lucci could defeat Moria mid/high Diff
Pacifistas - okay that is a tough one, but I think even Pre TS Luffy could defeat one by himself but it would have been a long high diff battle where it could go 50/50
Baby 5 and Dellinger - They were pretty pathetic in my eyes, Im surprised Dellinger was able to beat Bellamy somehow. But either way both of them showed nothing of sort that makes them powerful, they had no haki, speed was low, strength not great just low level fighters.
Bellamy - got one hit KO'd by a base punch with CoA from Luffy, that was pretty lame.
Hajrudin - he also got one hit KO'd by Luffy
Pre TS Law and Urouge - If Gear 2 Luffy had a log drawn high diff battle with Lucci, do you think Law has the stamina to keep up? You may mention Room but Lucci is fast enough to dodge Law's sword and I dont think Law would be fast enough to dodge Lucci. Urouge maybe but hes all strength, I doubt Urouge could have defeated Luffy or even Moria so Im not giving the W to Urouge.

People think because its the NW, individuals who are there are automatically stronger than the ones from the Paradise, which is normally true but not certain. Some of the pirates in the NW have shown a poor performance not NW quality. But those are the ones who are in the lowest part of the ladders in their respective crews.

 

[HereNThere]

is that even canon?

Like I said, it depends on how much you want to consider Oda's involvement. They fought in Stampede, which was the same film that officially revealed the proper name of Laugh Tale.

Scratch that. I thought they fought in Stampede. It was Film Gold they fought in. Oda wasn't apart of that one.

 

[catagon87]

Depending on how much you want to read into the movies that Oda has input in, Lucci is comparable to Sabo on some level. But then the question from there is where you scale Sabo. I'd go ahead and say Lucci has the strength of a YC anyway.

Luffy has the fastest growth rate, but Lucci is also considered a genius in his own right was ascended to become the strongest CP9 agent in history. I wouldn't be surprised if he was capable of a significant spike in growth as well. Not on Luffy's level, but still respectable potentially.

I'm fine with Lucci having a growth-spurt. There's ways to write that in. The guy was seen as some invincible genius among geniuses. The ideal thing would be he gets defeated unexpectedly, self-reflects and trains his ass off so it never happens again.

I'd be annoyed if we had to see another Luffy vs Lucci though. I like to think that once Luffy beats someone, he's above them for the most part. Would be cool to see Sanji or something fend off Lucci this time around, and perhaps Brook takes out Kaku since he's another sword user (and he's not super worn down compared to the other SHP atm).

I'd love to see Brook, and Usopp shine against CP0.