One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Moss Green]

The side by side panels of Luffy-Zoro, Zoro-Sanji, Luffy-Sanji don’t mean anything in terms of who is as strong as who. The fact you have one for all of them contradicts the very points you’re trying to make. The argument you’re all having is one of future portrayal/parallels and the manga has already answered it for you.

The difference between Luffy and Zoro is ACoC that’s the only thing that matters. If Zoro can’t hit that hard nothing else comes into play because his swords won’t even make it to Luffy. On the roof before he was knocked out Luffy didn’t look particularly stronger than anyone but say Killer. Law and Kidd’s awakening confirm that they could hurt Yonko the same, if not more, than Luffy could before he awakened it. Anyone who doesn’t have ACoC or an insane DF like Akainu or BB is not a threat to Luffy and he likely won’t main anyone without it for the rest of the series.

The deal with Zoro is the belief that at some point or other he’s going to be at minimum as strong as Oden. And it’s believable because he’s going to master his very sword and turn it black, something Oden didn’t do (even if we don’t know how it works yet). If you want to claim it’s a “magic power up” in order to down play Zoro then surely the same was true for Oden? Roger, WB, and Kaido saw major potential in Oden. Zoro hasn’t mastered it yet so its haki is more noticeable than his other swords but he will eventually be the same magic sword user Kaido acknowledges as LITERALLY top tier alongside Luffy, Roger, WB, Shanks, and Xebec. Oden’s unrealized potential is Zoro’s claim to fame

Now as the #3 of the crew Sanji is clearly in the upper echelon of strength in the series. His only issue is portrayal, really the lack thereof of any prominent 3s in any other crew in the story. Of course this isn’t Sanji’s fault and should not be used to downplay him either. We just don’t see any other prominent #3’s of a crew that are portrayed as top tiers the way some of the #2s have been. There’s no frame of reference. We don’t know how strong Scooper Gaban is and he’s only in a panel and a half of the story. Don’t know who Shanks 3 is, or WBs 3. Smoothie has done nothing. Queen has done nothing. There just are no “legendary” 3s to date, 1000+ chapters in.

Last but not least Sanji and Zoro will always bicker because of their differing personalities and they’ll always be in the same ballpark even though Sanji basically doesn’t have Haki. But Oda doesn’t portray Sanji to blatantly flirt with the upper echelon of characters the same way he does with Zoro. Color of the Conqueror awakening chapter alongside Luffy, #2 artwork with legends like Rayleigh and Marco, the fact that his final opponent might be as strong as Shanks, mastering a sword only previously tamed by someone compared to the all time strong by literally Kaido. Even if he never gets there Zoro is often ambiguously associated with the top. As a Conqueror Zoro has access to the ultimate difference maker ACoC, while Sanji has yet to demonstrate it nor have we seen a #3 with it.

Sanji’s current biggest strength feat claim to date is proximity to Zoro. He doesn’t tick any of the top tier boxes. No CoC, no black Haki, no crazy DF, no top tier weapons. On his own it’s impossible to accurately relate his strength to the top. It’s the reason people will compare Luffy-Zoro and Zoro-Sanji but never Luffy-Sanji. Because that potential gap is big and Sanji isn’t being portrayed to fill the gaps the same ways Luffy and Zoro are, like Haki training or unlocking CoC. The biggest impediment to Sanji’s standing is he has no lore in the story which is why people don’t really see him as a top tier, just a guy who happens to be really strong.

 

[AmitDS]

On a side note I think WB's top 3 commanders have the best portrayal in terms of parity among the group though we know Marco is the strongest (DBs even state he is). Jozu and Marco have comparable feats against Admirals while Jozu and Vista have comparable feats vs Mihawk. Vista further fighting evenly with Mihawk is also more than enough to support him when his feats have to stack up against Marco and Jozu's versus admirals.

 

[Crimson Ice]

This is what I see for end game for each characters.

Luffy - will slightly surpass Roger/WB
Zoro - will slightly surpass Mihawk
Sanji - will slightly surpass Kizaru, if the theories are right.

Either way, Zoro will be >> a regular YC1
And Sanji >> a regular YC2

Usual dynamics between captain, and 2nd/3rd in command isn't at play here



Well, yeah, kinda.
You're being condescending while I genuinely didn't remember Luffy fighting together with Sanji and was asking for it.
Well ok, you posted one now. That's all I was asking for. But again, it's in absence of Zoro in the arc,

What you're doing here is so transparent anyway.
You're pretending like the gap between no 2 and no 3 of the top dogs of the OP isn't significant, while that's clearly not the case.

Rayleigh is treated as one of the legends of the WB/Roger era, and is still an admiral tier while old and rusted. We didn't know of Copper until recently.
Marco was compared directly to admirals, became captain after WB died, and was treated as a potential Yonko after Marineford. And currently 2v1'd King and Queen for hours while expending energy healing up thousands of soldiers
Katakuri/Smoothie, it's obvious.
King is overwhelming Zoro while not even in hybrid form (unless what he is fighting against Zoro is his hybrid form, idk), while Queen has been getting smacked by Sanji

Just because we didn't know Scopper until recently doesn't mean he's not significant. Rayleigh and Scopper were called Roger's two best men and were the only people outside of Roger who could seemingly stand up to Oden. Not to mention, Oda literally has Scopper be a part of the medal trio in Roger's crew . Comparing Roger's crew dynamic to the Yonko isn't valid. The Yonko have three top commanders, while Roger's crew seemingly operates like the Straw Hats, the captain with his right and left hand. We don't know much about Scopper, but from what we have seen there's nothing to imply he's SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than Rayleigh.

 

[grey matter]

Agree generally, especially with his endgame being slightly above Mihawk who's portrayed around Shanks. As well as slightly above Oden, who is treated as a legendary figure by Kaido, and is borderline Yonko tier or even low Yonko level.

Except this part

Sanji’s current biggest strength feat claim to date is proximity to Zoro. He doesn’t tick any of the top tier boxes. No CoC, no black Haki, no crazy DF, no top tier weapons. On his own it’s impossible to accurately relate his strength to the top. It’s the reason people will compare Luffy-Zoro and Zoro-Sanji but never Luffy-Sanji. Because that potential gap is big and Sanji isn’t being portrayed to fill the gaps the same ways Luffy and Zoro are, like Haki training or unlocking CoC. The biggest impediment to Sanji’s standing is he has no lore in the story which is why people don’t really see him as a top tier, just a guy who happens to be really strong.

After Sanji's Germa biology awoke, he has been overwhelming and smacking Queen, even in his hybrid form.

Let's take Zoro/Sanji portrayal away from the equation all together, and look directly at feats (prediction).
Sanji scales above Queen.
Depending on the difficulty of Sanji's win, he may go from YC1-2 tier, to YC 1 tier

While Zoro will scale to YC1, or YC1+ depending on the difficulty by which he beats King.

Even disregarding the portrayal all together, we will still end up with Zoro and Sanji close enough.

Just because we didn't know Scopper until recently doesn't mean he's not significant. Rayleigh and Scopper were called Roger's two best men and were the only people outside of Roger who could seemingly stand up to Oden. Not to mention, Oda literally has Scopper be a part of the medal trio in Roger's crew . Comparing Roger's crew dynamic to the Yonko isn't valid. The Yonko have three top commanders, while Roger's crew seemingly operates like the Straw Hats, the captain with his right and left hand. We don't know much about Scopper, but from what we have seen there's nothing to imply he's SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than Rayleigh.

I didn't state that he was like a tier below Rayleigh or something.
If you ask me, I predict peak Scopper was a solid admiral tier, like I predict EOS Sanji to be (Kizaku level). While Rayleigh bordering on or reaching lower ends of Yonko tier. My prediction is that peak Rayleigh would mid-high (closer to high) diff peak Scopper

It's just that we've never seen anyone compare Scopper as a legend of the Roger/WB era, like Rayleigh was. He doesn't seem anywhere as infamous either

You may be right however. we'll see.

 

[XXGenesis]

Articulate essays and videos can be created. Some ppl would still argue,
The gap is small.
There’s barely a gap.

You can give Sanji his credit and just due. Even hype him, show excitement for his achievements, same insecurities from fans are brought up.

There’s so much story points that show there’s a difference just aside from power scailing it’s ridiculous how it’s all ignored.
Mistaken for being the captain.
Being the Right hand man.
SN status.

There is notably a big difference when some users disagree with each other, & have a dialogue trying to prove their points. Than when members are condescending, asinine, & toxic.

Sanji fans have this insecurity that Zoro is stronger than Sanji. They feel a need to only acknowledge that Zoro is only slightly stronger than Sanji! When both have different fighting styles, personalities, ambitions etc.

Basically what they are saying is.
Scooper vs Roger would be the same as Rayleigh vs Roger

or

Ace be Wb would be the same as Marco vs Wb.

or Smoothie vs Big Mom is the same as Katakuri vs BM

Those fights are not ending in the same difficulty. All of the 1st mates would fare significantly better than the YC2. YC2 are not equal to the 1st Mates;

 

[grey matter]

Just because we didn't know Scopper until recently doesn't mean he's not significant. Rayleigh and Scopper were called Roger's two best men and were the only people outside of Roger who could seemingly stand up to Oden. Not to mention, Oda literally has Scopper be a part of the medal trio in Roger's crew . Comparing Roger's crew dynamic to the Yonko isn't valid. The Yonko have three top commanders, while Roger's crew seemingly operates like the Straw Hats, the captain with his right and left hand. We don't know much about Scopper, but from what we have seen there's nothing to imply he's SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than Rayleigh.

Also, agree completely on Roger's crew dynamics being nowhere similar to "regular" Yonkos
His 2nd and 3rd are a lot closer to himself, compared to say Kaido's or Big mom's or BB's (prediction)
This was my main point to begin with. When people were trying to argue that Luffy would smoke Zoro or Sanji, like Kaido/BM would to their YC1s and YC2
I don't see EOS (or even current) Luffy low diffing EOS Zoro or EOS Sanji.


This "regular" Yonko crew dynamic isn't true for WB's crew either, though to a lesser extend.
Oden was also borderline Yonko tier, and Marco is low admiral tier. Oda had stated in a SBS that WB's commander positions were equal in status. That regular hierarchy of power level wasn't applicable. This makes a lot of sense when we look again. Oden was YC2, but was the 2nd strongest. Vista is YC5, but wouldn't be stomped by Marco, like a typical YC1 would do to YC5s, Ace who was YC2 seems weaker than Vista and maybe even Jozu etc


When we try to find relative positions of Zoro and Sanji, we should be looking at Roger's crew. Or at worst WB's crew. Since Luffy's will is a mix of Roger's and WB's (more of Roger than WB)
Typical Yonkos just care about power more than anything else. Nothing close to what Luffy is looking towards

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Heck roger Cree endgame wise was pretty ahead
Roger
Scopper oden and Rayleigh , they strong as hell

 

[Moss Green]

After Sanji's Germa biology awoke, he has been overwhelming and smacking Queen, even in his hybrid form.

Let's take Zoro/Sanji portrayal away from the equation all together, and look directly at feats (prediction).
Sanji scales above Queen.
Depending on the difficulty of Sanji's win, he may go from YC1-2 tier, to YC 1 tier

While Zoro will scale to YC1, or YC1+ depending on the difficulty by which he beats King.

Even disregarding the portrayal all together, we will still end up with Zoro and Sanji close enough.

You’re misunderstanding me a bit. I have no doubt that by EOS Sanji will be as strong as any YC1 around. IMO he’ll be comparable to current Marco. Expansion of his fire abilities/exoskeleton healing already kind of suggest this.

My point is fighting a YC1 for Zoro or a YC2 for Sanji doesn’t actually give us a lot of context as to where they stand strength-wise in the story. We’ve seen YC1s in Oden and Pre-Wano Luffy get one-shot by a Yonko. A YC2 cheap shot at Yonko and technically one shot her. On top of that all YC1 are not built the same. Marco stalled King & Queen but none took significant damage. Zoro mini-replicated Oden’s feat which Kaido praised but is now getting ragdolled by a YC1. We don’t really know how strong YC1s are in relation to Admirals and Yonko so for me feats give less context than portrayal. Especially when it comes to Sanji and Zoro whose opponents so far don’t have feats outside the arc to give context

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think really boils down to what difficulty you think Zoro defeats Sanji with.

We have ample evidence to prove that Sanji would give Zoro an extremely difficult fight (now more than ever).

The fight would be very hard fought but Zoro will get a clean victory.

 

[AmitDS]

All this just makes it more hilarious that Zoro and Sanji are fighting King and Queen. Kaku and Jabra part 2 and fans don't know what to do.

We called it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

All this just makes it more hilarious that Zoro and Sanji are fighting King and Queen. Kaku and Jabra part 2 and fans don't know what to do.

We called it.

What's funny is that for years we were told by the Zoro fandom that the deciding factor for Zoro being far and away stronger than Sanji was the fact that Zoro uses Swords.... and then Oda gives Sanji the perfect defense for sword slashes by giving him an exoskeleton

Oda knows what he is doing.

 

[Moss Green]

All this just makes it more hilarious that Zoro and Sanji are fighting King and Queen. Kaku and Jabra part 2 and fans don't know what to do.

We called it.

How are King and Queen Kaku and Jabra part 2?

 

[Pirate Queen]

How are King and Queen Kaku and Jabra part 2?

They are close in strength to one another by a negligible amount for one.

And Queen and King's relationship to eachother is basically a mirror of Zoro's and Sanji's so it's going to to bring out feelings familiarly felt during the Enis Lobby arc where Zoro and Sanji was the highest

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

Off topic: Queen is regularly acknowledge to be weaker than King (without evidence) but it cannot be argued that King is more dangerous that Queen.

Queen almost single handedly wiped out the Performance floor thanks to his Ice Oni Virus, were it not for Chopper even Marco would have been overwhelmed.

Queen's abilit to release calamitous disease far outshines anything King has shown, that that is pure fact.

 

[Moss Green]

They are close in strength to one another by a negligible amount for one.

And Queen and King's relationship to eachother is basically a mirror of Zoro's and Sanji's so it's going to to bring out feelings familiarly felt during the Enis Lobby arc where Zoro and Sanji was the highest

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

Off topic: Queen is regularly acknowledge to be weaker than King (without evidence) but it cannot be argued that King is more dangerous that Queen.

Queen almost single handedly wiped out the Performance floor thanks to his Ice Oni Virus, were it not for Chopper even Marco would have been overwhelmed.

Queen's abilit to release calamitous disease far outshines anything King has shown, that that is pure fact.

Negligible according to what? Douriki? Whatever the difference between King and Queen is we certainly can’t use Ennies Lobby as a barometer. That’s the same thing as saying Luffy and Zoro are equal because of Whiskey Peak. Besides if Kaku and Jyabura clearly were near equal then they aren’t now because Jyabura isn’t in CP0 so that doesn’t hold up

I get that we need the past to inform the present but we’ve got hundreds of chapters of new context since then that stuff is quite literally not relevant

 

[Pirate Queen]

Negligible according to what? Douriki? Whatever the difference between King and Queen is we certainly can’t use Ennies Lobby as a barometer. That’s the same thing as saying Luffy and Zoro are equal because of Whiskey Peak. Besides if Kaku and Jyabura clearly were near equal then they aren’t now because Jyabura isn’t in CP0 so that doesn’t hold up

I get that it’s easy to use the past to inform the present but we’ve got hundreds of chapters of new context since then that stuff is quite literally not relevant

I didn't even mention douriki, just that they were close in strength. You didn't need Douroki telling us they were near equals. Just like you dont need to be told King and Queen are near equals.

 

[Moss Green]

I didn't even mention douriki, just that they were close in strength. You didn't need Douroki telling us they were near equals. Just like you dont need to be told King and Queen are near equals.

Of course you did, that was the entire purpose of douriki. To convey how close they were, and how close Zoro and Sanji were, and how big a threat Lucci was in comparison. You saying anything else is just being dishonest.

If you’re saying you assumed kaku and jabra were near equal without douriki, which lol btw sure you did, then it’s a good thing you had the douriki as evidence. Now you’re just making assumption an without any of the evidence which again, lol. You’re feelings are your feelings but don’t peddle them as facts

 

[Pirate Queen]

Of course you did, that was the entire purpose of douriki. To convey how close they were, and how close Zoro and Sanji were, and how big a threat Lucci was in comparison. You saying anything else is just being dishonest.

If you’re saying you assumed kaku and jabra were near equal without douriki, which lol btw sure you did, then it’s a good thing you had the douriki as evidence. Now you’re just making assumption an without any of the evidence which again, lol. You’re feelings are your feelings but don’t peddle them as facts

Douriki is a terrible way to power scale as it takes into account physical strength only not overall combat ability. So do not put words in my text. If I meant douriki I would have said douriki. Aside from Lucci, theywere the 2 most dangerous CP9 agents and if I recall correctly the wielders of both keys granting access to the gates of justice. Showing them a equally important to Enis Lobby.

You don't need to be spoon feed evidence that is so blatantly apparent, but I guess you do

 

[Moss Green]

Douriki is a terrible way to power scale as it takes into account physical strength only not overall combat ability. So do not put words in my text. If I meant douriki I would have said douriki. Aside from Lucci, theywere the 2 most dangerous CP9 agents and if I recall correctly the wielders of both keys granting access to the gates of justice. Showing them a equally important to Enis Lobby.

You don't need to be spoon feed evidence that is so blatantly apparent, but I guess you do

Haha all of the members of CP9 had potential keys “to Robin’s cuffs” not the gates of justice. The keys had nothing to do with strength might want to re-read the part of the manga that has so informed your thinking.

What you’re saying is Kaku and Jyabura are near equal “just because” so Zoro and Sanji are equal “just because”. Not really bringing a whole lot to the table huh? You’re kinda the same as a Luffy-Zoro Whiskey Peak truther and you don’t even realize it. Sad

 

[Pirate Queen]

Haha all of the members of CP9 had potential keys “to Robin’s cuffs” not the gates of justice. The keys had nothing to do with strength might want to re-read the part of the manga that has so informed your thinking.

What you’re saying is Kaku and Jyabura are near equal “just because” so Zoro and Sanji are equal “just because”. Not really bringing a whole lot to the table huh? You’re kinda the same as a Luffy-Zoro Whiskey Peak truther and you don’t even realize it. Sad

What a weird way of saying you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

The pattern of Zoro and Sanji fighting the second and 3rd strongest members of a group has been happening long before Kaku and Jabura.

It first started in Arling Park and has been consistant up to King vs Queen... also the 2nd and 3rd strongest members of a certain group.

It has nothing to do with Zoro and Luffy at Whiskey Peak so your just talking nonsense at this point.

 

[Moss Green]

What a weird way of saying you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

The pattern of Zoro and Sanji fighting the second and 3rd strongest members of a group has been happening long before Kaku and Jabura.

It first started in Arling Park and has been consistant up to King vs Queen... also the 2nd and 3rd strongest members of a certain group.

It has nothing to do with Zoro and Luffy at Whiskey Peak so your just talking nonsense at this point.

We’re talking about you calling King and Queen, and thus Zoro and Sanji, near equals because of Kaku and Jabra in Enies Lobby. Not them fighting as 2 and 3, because duh. Of the two of us I’m not the one who looks like they don’t know what they’re talking about…..