Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

yeah in the novel it goes into detail about aces time on the ship and how he eventually became a whitebeard pirate. he challenged whitebeard 99 times and on the 99th time he forced whitebeard to use his devil fruit. then their 100th battle took place on an island while their crews watched.

so yeah commanders 1 and 2 shouldn't be getting swatted by anyone tbh. luffy only got pwned in his first encounter with kaidou because the author loves doing that to luffy every single time he fights a new strong person. they body him easily to start off with and then he comes back and does better. happened with megallen, moria, lucci, crocodile, doflamingo, and even friggin caesar.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2021 ---

ace wasn't second division commander yet though. he was just on the ship trying to find an opportunity to take whitebeard out. but he eventually started to get trained by thatch so the ace that fought whitebeard by the end was much much stronger than the ace that fought jimbei for 5 days

I see. Thanks for the info man

Makes sense. Ace was strong enough to match attacks from Aoikiji.

We mostly got to see Ace taking Ls in the main series, so he tends to be downplayed. The novel seems to be making a solid case as to why he was so infamous, and why WB & Shanks considered him the next potential PK

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2021 ---

so yeah commanders 1 and 2 shouldn't be getting swatted by anyone tbh. luffy only got pwned in his first encounter with kaidou because the author loves doing that to luffy every single time he fights a new strong person. they body him easily to start off with and then he comes back and does better. happened with megallen, moria, lucci, crocodile, doflamingo, and even friggin caesar.

Exactly

And yes, I consider Luffy getting one shot absolutely an outlier. Like you said, typical Oda overhype of villain in beginning of the arc
Law tanked thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido without much issues and went onto fight BM for hours soon after, but G4 Luffy got one shot by thunder bagua from base Kaido? Yea, if this isn't an outlier, idk what is lol.

There is no way I consider even current Law as tanky as beginning of Wano G4 Luffy, who was brimming with armaments haki. Let alone leagues tankier (which he should be, in order for the two feats to make sense).

Still, against Crocodile and Caesar it kinda made sense.
Crocolide was tiers above Luffy back then. Luffy was playing around against Caesar (he even got scolded by Zoro for it), and got KO'd because he got cut off oxygen

But Lucci is another perfect example. Luffy, even without G2, did MUCH better against Lucci in the next round. While he got no diff'd in first round.

 

[LaGOAT]

I don’t think beginning of wano luffy was an outlier It made sense. Wci luffy was barely YC1 and his fight against katakuri wasnt a legitimate win a lot of ppl agree on that at best we can say it was a tie. 2. Luffy used snakeman vs katakuri. katakuri was ragdolling boundman anyways. Kaido oneshotted him make sense in boundman form.

3. IMO I beleive in those 2 weeks before the raid everyone gotten stronger (oda hates training arcs anyways) so it make sense of how characters like law and the rest of supernovas can tank yonkos attacks

Luffy is yonko tier by hype/portrayal not by feats

 

[grey matter]

I don’t think beginning of wano luffy was an outlier It made sense. Wci luffy was barely YC1 and his fight against katakuri wasnt a legitimate win a lot of ppl agree on that at best we can say it was a tie. 2. Luffy used snakeman vs katakuri. katakuri was ragdolling boundman anyways. Kaido oneshotted him make sense in boundman form.

3. IMO I beleive in those 2 weeks before the raid everyone gotten stronger (oda hates training arcs anyways) so it make sense of how characters like law and the rest of supernova can tank yonkos tanks

Nah, Kaido isn't one shotting YC2s either.

Where do you think Law is lol.
I mean, if someone borderline YC1 can be legitimately one shot by thunder bagua from base Kaido, while Law is pretty much fine after thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido. Then the dude is like what, leagues above YC1? Nah, that makes little sense

There is only so much you can go beyond YC1:
- YC1 + tier (something we use to describe people who are above YC1, but not quite admiral tier. People like Law, Kid and Marco falls here IMO. As will Zoro by the end of the arc)
- admiral tier
- Yonko tier

Of course, some variation will be there within each tier, based on abilities and stats; and even overall power level (like, Roger/prime WB are different class of Yonkos for eg).
But these are, broadly speaking, what we have above YC1

Where do you think Law fits in, if he can tank a stronger Thunder Bagua without much issues, while beginning of Wano Luffy (YC2-borderline YC1) can be one shot by a weaker Thunder Bagua?

For me, this is classic Oda overhype of arc villain, only to correct by the end of the arc when actual fights happen.
Happened with Rob Lucci, happening with Kaido now.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Law used a defensive move to block Thunder Bagua

Let's not pretend like he tanked it outright...

 

[grey matter]

Law used a defensive move to block Thunder Bagua

Let's not pretend like he tanked it outright...

Can you point me where Law used a defensive move?

The dude got blitzed and hit by Thunder Bagua, the same way Luffy was. Only difference being Law tanked it and was fine afterwards, while Luffy got one shot

 

[Pirate Queen]

Can you point me where Law used a defensive move?

The dude got blitzed and hit by Thunder Bagua, the same way Luffy was. Only difference being Law tanked it and was fine afterwards, while Luffy got one shot

When did Luffy get one-shot by Thunder Bagua?

Are you talking about before everyone's powerups? Like beginning of Wano?

 

[Sachsenhesse]

When did Luffy get one-shot by Thunder Bagua?

Are you talking about before everyone's powerups? Like beginning of Wano?

Which powerup got Law?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Which powerup got Law?

Awakening

 

[grey matter]

When did Luffy get one-shot by Thunder Bagua?

Are you talking about before everyone's powerups? Like beginning of Wano?

Yes, beginning of Wano Luffy.

He got one shot by thunder bagua from base Kaido

Thunder Bagua from hybrid Kaido got tanked without much issues by Law

Unless you mean to say that rooftop Law is leagues tankier than beginning of Wano Luffy (who's borderline YC1 tier), in G4 and brimming with armament haki , then this makes no sense.
Hence outlier

Awakening

Awakening doesn't help here. The dude got blitzed and hit, his DF doesn't even come into picture here

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yes, beginning of Wano Luffy.

He got one shot by thunder bagua from base Kaido

Thunder Bagua from hybrid Kaido got tanked without much issues by Law

Unless you mean to say that rooftop Law is leagues tankier than beginning of Wano Luffy in G4 and brimming with armament haki (who's borderline YC1 tier), then this makes no sense.
Hence outlier



Awakening doesn't help here. The dude got blitzed and hit, his DF doesn't even come into picture here

Zoro proved this chapter you can block with CoA without it being show so obviously as Hardening.

There are ways to explain it.

I do think the Luffy one-shot was an Outlier, however

You are right. It's doesn't makes sense for Law to still be fighting after a Hybrid Thunder Bagua

 

[grey matter]

Zoro proved this chapter you can block with CoA without it being show so obviously as Hardening.

There are ways to explain it.

I do think the Luffy one-shot was an Outlier, however

You are right. It's doesn't makes sense for Law to still be fighting after a Hybrid Thunder Bagua

Oh, I don't doubt that Law used armament haki to defend himself. Point was that even if he's tankier than beginning of Wano G4 Luffy (which I highly doubt), he can't be THAT much tankier

I think the feat against Law is the accurate depiction of Kaido's attack power. Considering Law has been fighting BM for hours since then, and even fought her for some time solo (when Kid was dead weight cause of Hawkins), we should assume Law is perfectly capable of this feat.

The complete outlier for me is Kaido one shotting Luffy in base. Cause everything else points to characters less tankier than Luffy tanking hits from Kaido.
Typical Oda overhyping arc villains.

 

[LaGOAT]

Nah, Kaido isn't one shotting YC2s either.

Where do you think Law is lol.
I mean, if someone borderline YC1 can be legitimately one shot by thunder bagua from base Kaido, while Law is pretty much fine after thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido. Then the dude is like what, leagues above YC1? Nah, that makes little sense

There is only so much you can go beyond YC1:
- YC1 + tier (something we use to describe people who are above YC1, but not quite admiral tier. People like Law, Kid and Marco falls here IMO. As will Zoro by the end of the arc)
- admiral tier
- Yonko tier

Of course, some variation will be there within each tier, based on abilities and stats; and even overall power level (like, Roger/prime WB are different class of Yonkos for eg).
But these are, broadly speaking, what we have above YC1

Where do you think Law fits in, if he can tank a stronger Thunder Bagua without much issues, while beginning of Wano Luffy (YC2-borderline YC1) can be one shot by a weaker Thunder Bagua?

For me, this is classic Oda overhype of arc villain, only to correct by the end of the arc when actual fights happen.
Happened with Rob Lucci, happening with Kaido now.

Lol why can’t he? Imo there is a gap between yc2 and YC1

example kaido can mid diff YC1
Kaido can low diff yc2 luffy imo was inbetween yc2-yc1 lvl at that time.

law currently is yc1+ lvl back at the beginning of wano was yc2 lvl like I said imo that 2 week TS was a huge boost for every1

 

[AmitDS]

YC1 do not get one shot by Yonkou’s.

The Luffy that got one-shot by Kaido was hovering around YC1. Even if we rate him less than YC1 at this time, he won't be far off from that level. And even then, Oda made it a point to show Luffy was angered. We know from Katakuri that FS can't be used if the user is not calm and focussed so I guess this can be used as an explanation in a way. Later on, in Onigashima, Luffy actually used FS to dodge Thunder Bagua again, albeit, it still tagged his leg, but Kaido praised him for his growth for what it's worth.

Even Queen got back up from Big Mom’s casual lunch. It wasn’t that big

Let's not misrepresent things here. O-Lin, the amnesiac, hakiless child version of BM (not her actual Yonkou self) knocked Queen out of his Zoan transformation in 2 moves, which is basically what Oda uses to show Zoan defeats. With this in mind, the whole Kaido oneshot G4 Luffy thing doesn't look like an outlier as much imo, because if a severely nerfed Yonkou can fodderize a YC2 with relative ease, a Prime Yonkou should have no issue with a ~YC1 even if there is a healthy gap between YC2 and YC1.

What supports this notion further is when we look at BM vs. Marco. Yes, Marco was countering Prometheus because his ability allowed for it, but when BM was fed up she casually grabbed him by the neck and he was sweating and panicking. The only reason we did not actually see a domination here is because BM conveniently asked Perospero to finish him but conveniently again, the Minks showed up at the same time. The reason this encounter would not be a oneshot or 2-shot or whatever tho lol is probably due to his regenerative ability but the point should still stand that it would be a relative easy fight for BM/another Yonkou.

These things make sense when you consider everything together, but what muddies the water is the fact that Law and co. "tanked" Kaido's blows after Luffy got a sound beating from them. This could've made more sense if we knew of Law and cos.' training like we did with Luffy's and even Kid's (the jail I guess lol), but without that missing piece of context it looks inconsistent and messy imo.

 

[zetsu banned]

These things make sense when you consider everything together, but what muddies the water is the fact that Law and co. "tanked" Kaido's blows after Luffy got a sound beating from them. This could've made more sense if we knew of Law and cos.' training like we did with Luffy's and even Kid's (the jail I guess lol), but without that missing piece of context it looks inconsistent and messy imo.

Suspension of disbelief for Kidd has the advantage of him only being a known quantity in combat to the reader since Wano. Law on the other hand has been with the crew most of the time since the timeskip, so we know very well what he's capable of and not capable of. And him just taking those shots from Kaidou just comes across as incredibly silly.

At this point Kaidou comes across as a character from a manga where the villain is actually allowed to kill characters, so it's incredibly bizarre that he literally has an on-screen kill-count of... one. Shooting Oden in the head after he boiled alive for an hour. Idc if he was drunk, Speed and Tama are a-okay even after being recently wrecked by Kaidou in an open field.

 

[AmitDS]

At this point Kaidou comes across as a character from a manga where the villain is actually allowed to kill characters, so it's incredibly bizarre that he literally has an on-screen kill-count of... one. Shooting Oden in the head after he boiled alive for an hour. Idc if he was drunk, Speed and Tama are a-okay even after being recently wrecked by Kaidou in an open field.

You could kinda tell Oda wrote himself into a pickle with Kaido on many fronts xD His durability, his mercilessness, etc. was hyped through the roof but when it was time to show these things it crumbled cuz obviously he couldn't actually kill everyone and be infallible as he was touted to be lol
I just remember all the BM slander going around about everything she did/does (and even Shanks and his hand) but when Lord Kaido fumbles it's crickets xD Encountering Speed and Tama, Scabbards on the roof, even Kinemon AGAIN when he's half-dead on the floor... Where his kills at???? lol

 

[MakMatik]

Does anyone else find "Wano", the country of samurai disappointing? For a country the marines don't want to touch it's been a very poor showing. Perhaps if the country was fed and healthy they would seem better but the strongest power should be Asura Doji, Denjiro Kiku and Kawamatsu.

I'll do a better analysis after the whole arc and the reread but even with their geographical advantage they don't seem too capable without a Ryuuma or Oden level figure. Perhaps I'm overestimating the marines while underestimating them but we'll see how it goes.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Does anyone else find "Wano", the country of samurai disappointing? For a country the marines don't want to touch it's been a very poor showing. Perhaps if the country was fed and healthy they would seem better but the strongest power should be Asura Doji, Denjiro Kiku and Kawamatsu.

I'll do a better analysis after the whole arc and the reread but even with their geographical advantage they don't seem too capable without a Ryuuma or Oden level figure. Perhaps I'm overestimating the marines while underestimating them but we'll see how it goes.

I get where you are coming from, but it depends on if the information Marines have is up to date.

If they are going off from the legend of Ryuma, then there is all the reason as to why Marines haven't invaded Wano.

20 years ago, Wano still had tremendous power in the form of Oden.

After Oden's death, there is Kaido in Wano at all times. Even though he isn't a Samurai, Marines still can't get in. Since information doesn't pass into or out of Wano, Marines really have no idea of which power is ruling Wano (remember that from the outside, Orochi is the Shogun....while Kaido is supposed to be his support).

But even with no Kaido, we have the scabbards. Out of all the countries SHs have visited, Wano has the strongest fighters overall. They have multiple YC level fighters who are still alive. But like you said, Wano has been weakened for 20 years due to Orochi and Kaido.

Elbaf on the other hand is something I am looking forward to. Apparently, they have the largest/strongest military force in the world (iirc).

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Does anyone else find "Wano", the country of samurai disappointing? For a country the marines don't want to touch it's been a very poor showing. Perhaps if the country was fed and healthy they would seem better but the strongest power should be Asura Doji, Denjiro Kiku and Kawamatsu.

I'll do a better analysis after the whole arc and the reread but even with their geographical advantage they don't seem too capable without a Ryuuma or Oden level figure. Perhaps I'm overestimating the marines while underestimating them but we'll see how it goes.

The marines don’t watch to touch wano because of the unknown
They don’t know how strong or weak it is and it’s well isolated
And honestly if oden was still alive I’d understand completely
Imagine oden + scabbards and the all the samurai Allies , that’s a force that could defeat a yonkou in combat , and now kaido is there
It’s not really worth it if goes wrong
The marines only go all out when they absolutely have to
Again just because the marines could probably body a yonkou in a war , is it worth the cost of throwing off all the balance , or potentially getting them to ally up to face off against them ? Nope

 

[grey matter]

Lol why can’t he? Imo there is a gap between yc2 and YC1

example kaido can mid diff YC1
Kaido can low diff yc2 luffy imo was inbetween yc2-yc1 lvl at that time.

law currently is yc1+ lvl back at the beginning of wano was yc2 lvl like I said imo that 2 week TS was a huge boost for every1

By your own logic, Kaido low-mid diff'd beginning of Wano Luffy since he was borderline YC1

But nah, it was a one shot, no diff. In his base

Like I said, outlier

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 29, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 29, 2021 ---

Does anyone else find "Wano", the country of samurai disappointing? For a country the marines don't want to touch it's been a very poor showing. Perhaps if the country was fed and healthy they would seem better but the strongest power should be Asura Doji, Denjiro Kiku and Kawamatsu.

I'll do a better analysis after the whole arc and the reread but even with their geographical advantage they don't seem too capable without a Ryuuma or Oden level figure. Perhaps I'm overestimating the marines while underestimating them but we'll see how it goes.

They do have 7 characters (discounting 2 minks) who range from YC2-YC4 levels.
Characters like peak Hyogoro, Shimotsuki Ushimaru etc also seem like YC tier characters

If you add in Oden and the samurai forces, peak Wano is basically a Yonko + his fleet level force.

So, invading Wano is basically like invading WCI, a Yonko force in their home turf. Plus it being near unreachable due to it's geography.

Right now, Oden replaced by Kaido. An even bigger threat!

Yeah, it makes perfect sense that nobody Fs with Wano lol

 

[XXGenesis]

Wano was protected By Ryuma 800+ years ago….

Then Oden another special individual…After Oden’s demise you have an outsider Kaido…

Marines was not approaching..Aside from Oden other strong Samurai were in the country

I don't think anyone on that roof (Big Mom excluded) is withstanding a CoC infused attack.

I get where your coming from.

However Luffy was already fighting sustaining blows before he received the 8 Trigrams K.O

Zoro broke all his bones stoppping 2 Yonkou’s attack before he was put down.

Law did survive by defending with his DF ability “Curtain”

ACoC surely will give you a K.O but I’ll say at least 2 attacks are needed for YC1 to go down.