One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Oh no I don't think she can low diff them. I use > to indicate A is stronger than B and will win most of their fights e.g. 8 out of 10 times, A will win against B (without any special circumstances). I am using >> to indicate that BM will win 10 out of 10 fights against Kid + Law (without any special circumstances). I don't think any of those wins would be easy for BM. I just don't see with their current strength, Kid + Law taking out BM in a fair fight is all.

I see, that's fair. I think 8 out of 10 times is a really good guess.

It's hard to say otherwise when neither have the growth rate of Luffy, monstrous endurance like Luffy, and an unbreakable will like Luffy.

I say Luffy but any Top Tier really

 

[grey matter]

I don't think it's a hot take to say BM>Kidd/Law

Tho... in fact I haven't seen anyone arguing that besides you.

It's pretty clear to be the case because of the circumstances of her defeat.

She can't low diff them but in a straight 1 v 2, no outside factors... she would very clearly win.

Ok, what difficulty then? Assume she didn't fall down.

For me, it was clearly already an extreme diff.
She used up her lifespan, had her bones broken and organs ruptured, used her ultimate DF ability.

What did I argue against?

Oh no I don't think she can low diff them. I use > to indicate A is stronger than B and will win most of their fights e.g. 8 out of 10 times, A will win against B (without any special circumstances). I am using >> to indicate that BM will win 10 out of 10 fights against Kid + Law (without any special circumstances). I don't think any of those wins would be easy for BM. I just don't see with their current strength, Kid + Law taking out BM in a fair fight is all.

Oh ok, I see what you mean.

Still, Law and Kid have already demonstrated that they can get a W. They are capable of severely damaging her, and pushing her beyond her limits.

Like Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have grown in their fights. So has Kid and Law. The current Law and Kid are stronger than their selves when they started the fight against BM

At their current level, heal them up (i.e have BM and Law/Kid start the fight at full health), and they win against BM more often than not.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2022 ---

I see, that's fair. I think 8 out of 10 times is a really good guess.

It's hard to say otherwise when neither have the growth rate of Luffy, monstrous endurance like Luffy, and an unbreakable will like Luffy.

I say Luffy but any Top Tier really

They already have demonstrated very high growth rate.
- Law got mid diff'd by Doflamingo in Dresrossa arc, now he's YC1+
- Kid was definitely below YC1 level when he got stomped by Kaido and put in prison. Now he's YC1+

Maybe not exactly same growth rate as Luffy, but they are certainly keeping up in growth to an extend

Kid also has demonstrated an unbreakable will, and was shown competing with Luffy (contest of wills) in the prison.
I do agree Luffy obviously has a stronger will. But Kid is very strong willed as well.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Ok, what difficulty then? Assume she didn't fall down.

For me, it was clearly already an extreme diff.
She used up her lifespan, had her bones broken and organs ruptured, used her ultimate DF ability.

What did I argue against?



Oh ok, I see what you mean.

Still, Law and Kid have already demonstrated that they can get a W. They are capable of severely damaging her, and pushing her beyond her limits.

Like Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have grown in their fights. So has Kid and Law. The current Law and Kid are stronger than their selves when they started the fight against BM

At their current level, heal them up (i.e have BM and Law/Kid start the fight at full health), and they win against BM more often than not.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2022 ---

They already have demonstrated very high growth rate.
- Law got mid diff'd by Doflamingo in Dresrossa arc, now he's YC1+
- Kid was definitely below YC1 level when he got stomped by Kaido and put in prison. Now he's YC1+

Maybe not exactly same growth rate as Luffy, but they are certainly keeping up in growth to an extend

Kid also has demonstrated an unbreakable will, and was shown competing with Luffy (contest of wills) in the prison.
I do agree Luffy obviously has a stronger will. But Kid is very strong willed as well.

I didn't say they have 0 growth rate, just in comparison to Luffy or just blanket stats like other top tiers. Let's be honest, Luffy's growthrate eclipses anything we have seen in this manga

I think they are both YC +1 as well but that just doesn't make them strong enough to beat Big Mom from what we have seen whereas you have Luffy who is at a minimum Low Yonko Level. The gap is huge or larger than one would care to admit.

And I'm not trying to compare them to Luffy, just in stats I think matter where Yonko level fights are concerned.

The fact is that without falling off an island and taking a nuke to the face, Big Mom doesn't lose.

That's weird since you think that Luffy at the beginning of Wano would lose to Katakuri

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022 ---

Why do you think Law and Kidd healed up after their fight with Big Mom would now beat her outright when you think a healed up luffy after WCI would still lose to Karakuri... feels like a double standard

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I see, that's fair. I think 8 out of 10 times is a really good guess.

It's hard to say otherwise when neither have the growth rate of Luffy, monstrous endurance like Luffy, and an unbreakable will like Luffy.

I say Luffy but any Top Tier really

That's a fair point. Since they are on protagonists side, it's entirely possible they'd get a power up mid fight in Luffy fashion and end up winning. There is nothing we've seen on panel that indicates this would be the case but hey we rarely see these random power ups coming, they just happen.

Oh ok, I see what you mean.

Still, Law and Kid have already demonstrated that they can get a W. They are capable of severely damaging her, and pushing her beyond her limits.

Like Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have grown in their fights. So has Kid and Law. The current Law and Kid are stronger than their selves when they started the fight against BM

At their current level, heal them up (i.e have BM and Law/Kid start the fight at full health), and they win against BM more often than not.

Yep I don't think there is a scenario in which either side defeats the other without it being a high diff fight. As for the rest, I don't agree that they'd win more often than not (in the fight starts over with them healed scenario). But I won't say its not a possibility since people do grow stronger mid fight. I think post Wano that Kid and Law will be stronger so if they fight her again in the future they should be able to get a clean win.

 

[grey matter]

I didn't say they have 0 growth rate, just in comparison to Luffy or just blanket stats like other top tiers. Let's be honest, Luffy's growthrate eclipses anything we have seen in this manga

It is somewhat comparable.

Luffy was a tier above Law in Dresrossa arc.
Luffy was, say YC2-3 tier. While Law, say upper Tobiroppo tier

Luffy post Wano will be low-Yonko/high-admiral tier. Law is low-admiral/YC1+ tier
Law is still a tier below Luffy

Law's growth rate is somewhat comparable to Luffy's

Luffy has higher growth rate obviously, but not on a completely different level

I think they are both YC +1 as well but that just doesn't make them strong enough to beat Big Mom from what we have seen whereas you have Luffy who is at a minimum Low Yonko Level. The gap is huge or larger than one would care to admit.

Collectively, it was already an extreme diff

Ignore the bomb and falling down all together. Everything until then - already an extreme diff.
Or are you gonna disagree with that?

Law vs Luffy, high diff win for Luffy currently. Mid-high diff win for Luffy post Wano (prediction)
Luffy isn't stomping him. Law already was tanking thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido before fighting and growing against BM. It won't be some stomp.

That's weird since you think that Luffy at the beginning of Wano would lose to Katakuri

Yeah, in an extreme diff fight.

And anyway. Like I already said before, if you wanna argue it will be a draw or extreme diff win for BM, I understand where you're coming from.

Why do you think Law and Kidd healed up after their fight with Big Mom would now beat her outright when you think a healed up luffy after WCI would still lose to Karakuri... feels like a double standard

Not really.
There were other factors involved there as well. Like Katakuri stabbing himself, no loyalty to BM, slowly losing will to fight/admiration to Luffy, Brulee indicating he could've continued etc

And I say Katakuri would extreme diff beginning of Wano Luffy. Gap was small

 

[McNuss]

What do you think is the strongest enemy Usopp could defeat? The fact he failed to do anything against Page One despite powering up in Dressrosa arc (which proved pointless as the issue is the ammo being weak), and the fact he received no power-up in Wano Arc actually makes him super weak right now.

Like, he has never been weaker before. I think Daruma from the New Fishman Pirates was already the limit (as the Dressrosa Arc Power-Up was pointless). He probably could defeat their other officers, too, but not Wadatsumi and Hyouzu would be very questionable too seeing he got waltzed by Zoro whom we much later learn is completely nuts even from the start.

Can't really see him beating a Donquixote officer, well maybe Giolla and even many Colliseum fighters seem questionable. We do lack a bit of showcase for Chopper's improved Monster Point but honestly all other Straw Hats could defeat Trebol/Diamante without much difficulty right now.

I think Usopp is weak but how weak?

 

[grey matter]

What do you think is the strongest enemy Usopp could defeat? The fact he failed to do anything against Page One despite powering up in Dressrosa arc (which proved pointless as the issue is the ammo being weak), and the fact he received no power-up in Wano Arc actually makes him super weak right now.

Like, he has never been weaker before. I think Daruma from the New Fishman Pirates was already the limit (as the Dressrosa Arc Power-Up was pointless). He probably could defeat their other officers, too, but not Wadatsumi and Hyouzu would be very questionable too seeing he got waltzed by Zoro whom we much later learn is completely nuts even from the start.

Can't really see him beating a Donquixote officer, well maybe Giolla and even many Colliseum fighters seem questionable. We do lack a bit of showcase for Chopper's improved Monster Point but honestly all other Straw Hats could defeat Trebol/Diamante without much difficulty right now.

I think Usopp is weak but how weak?

I honestly don't think Ussop can even defeat Blueno or Arlong.

Ussop can strike heavily out of his tier situationally, but in a pure 1v1.... not so much

 

[McNuss]

I honestly don't think Ussop can even defeat Blueno or Arlong.

Ussop can strike heavily out of his tier situationally, but in a pure 1v1.... not so much

He definitely can defeat Arlong. The NFP officers are basically Arlong on drugs. Hody Jones (drugged up) on the other hand was said that he could be worth over 100M, which I take as Hody Jones being comparable to a Supernova like Pre-Skip Luffy, meaning Post-skip Luffy beat himself underwater...sort of.

 

[grey matter]

He definitely can defeat Arlong. The NFP officers are basically Arlong on drugs. Hody Jones (drugged up) on the other hand was said that he could be worth over 100M, which I take as Hody Jones being comparable to a Supernova like Pre-Skip Luffy, meaning Post-skip Luffy beat himself underwater...sort of.

Did Ussop beat any of them though? I don't remember anything from that arc, completely forgettable arc lol

 

[AmitDS]

I think Oda made it a point to have Kid and Law perform their awakening combos multiple times to limited success and have BM just be the punching bag that takes it lol...

I don't get the whole "she needed to heal/consume lifespan" argument as a way to prove she's inferior... is she not allowed/able to utilize her powers in a fight..? lol Yes, the duo did amazingly and had great feats damaging her "more than she had been damaged in decades," with their awakenings but right after that she powered up and seemingly off-panelled them for a period and then since they mounted their counterattack, we can see that Oda decided to have BM want to tank their subsequent attacks instead of actually dodging or blocking a la Kaido vs. current Luffy (like when she declared that "She's Big Mom," at the end of the previous chapter with Kid's railgun).

I guess this was also to contrast the 2 Yonkou fights in a way; Kaido now views Luffy as his contemporary while BM doesn't do the same for Kid/Law. In her defense, she's not wrong lol considering they're still not close to Luffy xD

Anyway, their crewmates even said that she doesn't look like someone on the verge of death after all those awakening attacks she'd been taking head-on and their captains should gtfo before she kills them. Put all of those things together with the fact that Oda had them "win" because of the pitfall and the plot bombs, and you can see that they really couldn't outright defeat her (via KO) and would've lost if this were for eg. a battledome setting.

But anyway, yeah BM is still > Kid/Law lol.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think Oda made it a point to have Kid and Law perform their awakening combos multiple times to limited success and have BM just be the punching bag that takes it lol...

I don't get the whole "she needed to heal/consume lifespan" argument as a way to prove she's inferior... is she not allowed/able to utilize her powers in a fight..? lol Yes, the duo did amazingly and had great feats damaging her "more than she had been damaged in decades," with their awakenings but right after that she powered up and seemingly off-panelled them for a period and then since they mounted their counterattack, we can see that Oda decided to have BM want to tank their subsequent attacks instead of actually dodging or countering a la Kaido vs. current Luffy (like when she declared that "She's Big Mom," at the end of the previous chapter with Kid's railgun).

I guess this was also to contrast the 2 Yonkou fights in a way; Kaido now views Luffy as his contemporary while BM doesn't do the same for Kid/Law. In her defense, she's not wrong lol considering they're still not close to Luffy xD

Anyway, their crewmates even said that she doesn't look like someone on the verge of death after all those awakening attacks she'd been taking head-on and their captains should gtfo before she kills them. Put all of those things together with the fact that Oda had them "win" because of the pitfall and the plot bombs, and you can see that they really couldn't outright defeat her (via KO) and would've lost if this were for eg. a battledome setting.

But anyway, yeah BM is still > Kid/Law lol.

The argument that they forced her to go all out means she is weaker is a strange argument to make in any form. However, it's not like Oda has a great track record of powerscaling

 

[M3J]

It's pretty cool that Oda didn't make Law and Kidd clearly superior to Big Mom but put an asterisk in their win. Law and Kidd won because they achieved their objective, but if they did take down BIg Mom once and for all, then that's a W too, but I wouldn't be surprised if she can still move and fight. Probably thinks Kaidou isn't worthy anymore since he didn't take down Luffy by now, so she'll probably break off the alliance.

 

[McNuss]

Did Ussop beat any of them though? I don't remember anything from that arc, completely forgettable arc lol

Yes, Daruma, the Cookie-Cutter Shark Fishman. That's the only proper win he's got since the timeskip afaik.

He and Nami together beat up Baby 5 and Buffalo that already lost to Franky. And he circumstantially defeated Sugar twice. I think that's about it.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Honestly Usopp is just a gag character at this point. His only claim to fame is he can snipe something in the he can hit the target sense not that he will necessarily damage it. Without some major shift in the story, I think it would be an insult if Usopp beats Van Auger in a fight.

 

[McNuss]

Honestly Usopp is just a gag character at this point. His only claim to fame is he can snipe something in the he can hit the target sense not that he will necessarily damage it. Without some major shift in the story, I think it would be an insult if Usopp beats Van Auger in a fight.

I mean it's guaranteed he will receive another power up. Franky will receive one after Wano, too considering the Shogun has been destroyed, so just because Usopp got left out here doesn't mean he will not get one later. It seems Oda is putting more and more into the final fight (vs Augur?), which makes me wonder what kind of power-up Usopp could get.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I mean it's guaranteed he will receive another power up. Franky will receive one after Wano, too considering the Shogun has been destroyed, so just because Usopp got left out here doesn't mean he will not get one later. It seems Oda is putting more and more into the final fight (vs Augur?), which makes me wonder what kind of power-up Usopp could get.

I think where Usopp is lacking is in damage capability. His sniping itself I think is some of the best out there and he can take a lot of hits for someone as cowardly as he is. He took lots of hits during this fight and even took Ulti mortar a couple of times and is still standing. So my guess is he will get new ammunition and potentially a new kabuto after this arc.

 

[M3J]

Does Usopp really need power though? He's been able to win/make a difference without causing damage, like with Perona and Sugar. I don't think being able to cause damage should be high on the list as he can help in other ways and has been MVP on at least two occasions.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Does Usopp really need power though? He's been able to win/make a difference without causing damage, like with Perona and Sugar. I don't think being able to cause damage should be high on the list as he can help in other ways and has been MVP on at least two occasions.

That's a fair question. Only reason I think he needs more power is to fight the Blackbeard pirates. It seems Oda is setting them up to be 1v1s between their main crews so Ussop needs a way to take on Van Augur who appears far more capable a fighter than Usopp. I just don't think Usopp has any way of hurting people at Yonko crew executive level. He couldn't be anything more than a nuisance to the likes of P1 so how will he ever take on someone of that caliber or better in 1v1 in the future?

 

[john ellis]

I think ussop is guaranteed to have CoC, he lied about having it during Wano vs Kaido fodder. His lies tend to come true so it’s likely he’ll develop strong Haki as CoC users tend to also have strong Haki which makes sense.

 

[M3J]

That's a fair question. Only reason I think he needs more power is to fight the Blackbeard pirates. It seems Oda is setting them up to be 1v1s between their main crews so Ussop needs a way to take on Van Augur who appears far more capable a fighter than Usopp. I just don't think Usopp has any way of hurting people at Yonko crew executive level. He couldn't be anything more than a nuisance to the likes of P1 so how will he ever take on someone of that caliber or better in 1v1 in the future?

True, but then again I feel like Usopp could find a way to take down some strong fighters without needing that kind of power.