Considering the amount of struggle he had against Kaiser, I'd say both of them were comparable in the NHS, which means Baam only became comparable to Endorsi after completing the 1st step of revolution, just prior to the Dallar show (since he didn't grew much between these two arcs).
I don't really buy the 'struggle' though. Baam was faffing about in that fight, and got chewed up a bit for his arrogance. Once he made the decision to stop being nice and just gore through Elaine, he did so in one shot. It was manufactured nonsense for the sake of 'tension'.
I don't really buy the 'struggle' though. Baam was faffing about in that fight, and got chewed up a bit for his arrogance. Once he made the decision to stop being nice and just gore through Elaine, he did so in one shot.
It's not Baam deciding to level up, rather him unlocking a PU while under pressure (enhanced sensing) which he didn't have before. And even then, when he got in melee combat, she still managed to make Fenryl stick his teeth again on top of pressuing him with her accuracy and speed (as he said). Ultimately, he had to trick her by grabing her arm (preventing the switch) in order to place the final move at point blank range.
Nothing justifies his exhaustion and several injuries other than Kaiser being strong enough to compete with him.
Not just weaker, cannon fodder. You need an army of Endorsis to stand a chance against D-class Mas' in base. Heck, even Data Asencio would fodderize her based on their respective feats. So yeah, she's a low level princess.
Endorsi didn't learn any shinsu quality or shape before hidden floor in fact even when she was learning she didn't even seriously trained yet learn so quickly,i mean she lazed around all the while during hidden floor training. You are simply comparing endorsi who didn't learn any shinsu quality and shape with asensio and maschenny who learned their shinsu quality and shape and progressed on them much more than others. Also endorsi didn't even receive a proper training compared to members of 10 GF considering she was absolutely nothing, no background no teacher no proper master to teach her anything unlike asensio and maschenny or twins who had the support of their family. It's a similiar case between endorsi and elaine too. Not only elaine wasn't a member of main family she was the daughter of ordinary members of Worst branch of 20 branch family, so despite the fact that she had massive talent, she might not have a proper teacher in the past teaching her.
Again, if you raise the fact that data maschenny fucked up others at hidden floor shows maschenny and asensio has higher talent than endorsi and elaine i won't bother to respond you because you need to know your logic is flawed. Just because one is stronger than other at same floor doesn't mean the stronger one is more talented one if that was the case then baam is logicially by your sense, has the worst talent in tower since he was the weakest at second floor. The stronger one might have more opportunity to grow stronger or might have better teacher to teach him/her or might find something that completely suits her/him combat style. The reason why 10 family members are so strong isn't simply because of their talent, the reason why they are so strong is because they receive the best opportunites when growing stronger whether finding a proper teacher or master is not a problem at all. And a member of 10 Family who is favored by Family head himself??? He should be ashamed to not even be stronger than a Zahard princess(even if he is weaker than her in terms of talent) who had no support or teacher when growing stronger and only relied on herself.
There are more than few things that make up your combat power
1.Proper teacher and master that has similiar set of skill or talent to you that can teach you how to use your powers and teach techniques that's useful for your talent(for example jinsung couldn't even teach baam how to properly become strong even after 7 years yet data eduan who was barely at the level of elite rankers literally made baam beast in 1 month because they can use similiar powers that make up the irregular)
2.Shinsu quality and shape if you have one
3.Talent
4.How much time you spend on training
5.Shinsu Control
6.Strong Body and Shinsu resistance
7.Skill and Experience
Endorsi and Elaine didn't have any knowledge even about both shinsu quality and shape and even less any proper teacher so it's completely normal for them to be weaker than asensio and maschenny at same floor.
Also regulars receive more opportunities, better contracts that make you stronger, trains at better environments that makes them stronger that's why lower ranked regulars who can outclass higher ranked regulars are rare if you aren't from 10 GF or zahard princess.Even if elaine stayed at the same floor thousands of years she shouldn't have grown stronger(raw power) except for training her skills and gaining little bit experience because she couldn't have
met someone strong enough to challenge her,couldn't have gained any kind of opportunity to grow stronger,couldn't have made better contracts with Admins that would make her stronger, not only that she didn't have anyone teaching her about shinsu shape and shinsu quality. Just look at miseng who isn't talented as zahard princess and was even much weaker than ordinary E rank regulars outclassed two D rank regulars maybe a bit better than D rank regulars. Asensio and maschenny might have even received training from data eduan himself. So your points aren't true.
Also i still think elaine is talented as holan if holan is the guy elaine is talking about.
I don't use headcanon, I use feats and statement purely, nothing more nothing less. My whole reasoning is based on the performances of everyone in the data floor, in which case, eveyone in Baam's team (Baam included prior to revolution) was far weaker than any of the Khun trio on the same stage.
I don't really buy the 'struggle' though. Baam was faffing about in that fight, and got chewed up a bit for his arrogance. Once he made the decision to stop being nice and just gore through Elaine, he did so in one shot. It was manufactured nonsense for the sake of 'tension'.
Yes not only that khun also said Kaiser is lacking compared to both Hoaqin and Baam.
Hoaqin could have cut her down probably easily if he isn't as nice as Baam.
Baam just decided to save her and tried to defeat her with gentle force which is bullshit while he could have destroyed her if he decided to be serious at the very beginning.
It's not Baam deciding to level up, rather him unlocking a PU while under pressure (enhanced sensing) which he didn't have before. And even then, when he got in melee combat, she still managed to make Fenryl stick his teeth again on top of pressuing him with her accuracy and speed (as he said). Ultimately, he had to trick her by grabing her arm (preventing the switch) in order to place the final move at point blank range.
All for to baam talk no jutsu her, Ultimately kaiser wasn't even comparable to what Hoaqin and baam could do with their powers. Baam made the whole stage tremble that neither Kaiser,twins or endorsi could do.
Also elaine was literally armed up to her teeth,which doesn't make this quite a fair comparison. I would say even before the first revolution baam was at the very least comparable to endorsi if not even stronger than her much less the baam who gone through first and second revolution.
Let me guess, because Khun and Rak's shinsu qualities are strong, you're going to specualte that it's the same to anyone and everyone gets equally PUed.
First, that's a wrong. According to Edahn, only a minority of people has one or more qualities fitting them (which means in most cases, people don't have even a single quality matching their attributes).
Second, nothing suggests that Endorsi's shinsu quality is nearly as powerful and huge as a PU compared to Khun's ice spear or Rak's rock shield.
Based on feats (which is the interesting part), Endorsi's darts were blocked by White despite attacking with high frequency strikes for a little while whereas a single kick from her (with a little help from Beta) sent the same White flying. Said in other words, Endorsi's physical ability (+body strengthening) > her darts.
Now, you might say that White made a comment about their speed and zigzag, but again he had no choice but to block Endorsi's kick when she teleported in melee combat just like the darts.
So, based on feats, Endorsi learning her shinsu quality didn't power up her noticieably (unlike Khun and Rak), maybe she gained more versatility but it ends here. pre and post shinsu quality Endorsi both belong to the same general level.
Shinsu quality or not, she's fodder to Asencio and shinsu quality or not, you need an army of the likes of her to stand a chance against Data Mas' in base (not even taking Redan into account).
Endorsi and Elaine didn't have any knowledge even about both shinsu quality and shape and even less any proper teacher so it's completely normal for them to be weaker than asensio and maschenny at same floor.
Lol, Kaiser were sent HR+ items and trained for over a millena just to get to her current level. Plus, she belonged to the LPB family in her first 14 years where she was follwing their guidance. Not to mention that according to Kallavan, discovering shinsu qualities and attributes is a lost practice that only ancient HRs from genesis and earlier went through.
Where was it said that a reg contract gives you any more benefits than the ability to use shinsu in the said floor ? I'm waiting for your source.
IIRC, Endorsi, Hatsu, Shibisu, Anak, etc, were all D-class regs in the workshop battle (and only settled there because of the workshop), why the hell didn't they seem any stronger than the rest who were still E-class (Ran, AA, Chang, Horyang, etc) ?
It's amazing your ability to come up with things.
If you think the families send a top 100 HR to spend years training a mere regular, then it means that you're dellusional. Baam is a special case, an irregular, using him as a face-value and point of compirson is laughable. The only reason Hansung and Jinsung invested so much time in him is because they view him as the special being who would make their wishes come true. They also did it out of their own volution, no one ordered them or asked them to accomplish it as a task.
In other hands, you think the 10 families "order" their best HRs to go train some newby regs and spent a long of time honing their skills ? Don't make me laugh. The best they do is providing high financial support and occasional sparring sessions, no more, no less.
Wrong again.
SIU comparing Ran who just reached the 39th floor and Inieta who spent 100 years there :
"Well, the battle between Ran and Inieta is almost a tie. Ran did win out in the end, but Inieta had no support. Considering Inieta is a D-class Regular who started much earlier than Ran, Ran's growth is scarily fast."
Kaiser spent 10x more time than Inieta, do the math.
It also implies that :
spending a long time training without support >>> spending little time training with support from a family.
All for to baam talk no jutsu her, Ultimately kaiser wasn't even comparable to what Hoaqin and baam could do with their powers. Baam made the whole stage tremble that neither Kaiser,twins or endorsi could do.
Baam without souls nor Kaiser were up to Hoaqin at this point. However, SIU also said that Kaiser is still a strong foe for baam. So stop, making things.
"This chapter we have the main villain Kaiser make an appearance. Since Hoaqin last time was so powerful, he might not have as big of a name value,
but Hoaqin's defeat was more self-caused than from battle. (Leaving out spirit powers and in equalised conditions, Baam cannot defeat Hoaqin in a 1v1 match.) This Kaiser is a quite powerful enemy too.Not to mention his... bloodline... "
Endorsi ~ Thorn Baam ~ Kaiser < Hoaqin <= Thorn Baam (+souls)
That's the only rational conclusion we can reach at this point.
The reason Baam got injured and exhausted is none other than Kaiser being a worthy foe despite being a cut weaker (but still in the same general level or tier as him).
First of all, why would Hellam be stronger than Yuri? I have not seen any feat that shows this.
His shinheuh pushing Jinsung is not an indication because there was never a 1vs1, would he have that chance without Pudidy there?
Second point, we don't know how long Hellam has been a ranker, the growth rate compared to the time the individual has been a ranker influences this analysis. According to Haratcha, YHS is a talent that scared the 10 families and he is already around the top 500, and he is not even 1000 years old, Yuri who is a ranker just over 500 years has already passed that level, so in these cases yes, we have evidence of talent.
Third point, which was much discussed when Hellam said this in the topic of the chapter. Is he really the most talented or is he just a frog stuck in the pit of arrogance? Why should we believe his words when you have Shilial, Lilial and Kaiser who have already shown their true talents? It would be more laughable if other characters like Pudidy said that.
Yuri in the other hands was shown struggling against Karaka and Cheonhee, she ended up defeating them but not even remotely as easy as it should've been done if she was BH tier. Against Karaka, the context suggests that she was forced to ignite Kranos (one of the strongest ignition weapons) and unleash Rose Shower (putting the nearby regular's life in danger) to definitely put him down despite Evan being in her side. Similarly, she couldn't put him down in several future strifes (arround the FoD and HF arcs) even with Evan's help. Ultiamtely, the only reason she subdued him easily in the last station is because she has an OP item she didn't have access to in their earlier fights (the bubble like melting item). In contrast, Karaka with a good weapon like the purple dementor was noted to be strong enough to threaten Yuri and was portrayed as her rival in a blogpost.
Your analysis here is too shallow. First of all, Karaka is not weak and much less easy to defeat, his only problem is facing opponents MUCH above his level which gives that impression.
Kranos was never said to be one of the strongest Ignition Weapons, only that it is extremely powerful and has the possibility to be used on all floors. Also, one of Karaka's greatest weapons is his armor, which we don't know how powerful it is. Not to mention Yuri couldn't fight at all because of the regulars, when they weren't involved she subdued him quickly, the bubbles are a Shinsoo ability of hers, not an item, a lot of people confuse that.
About Cheonhee, she makes it very clear that she was just stalling for time.
The fact is, if you analyze Yuri vs Karaka and Cheonhee vs Karaka, you realize how superior Yuri is.
She's probably already in the top 300, though that's just guesswork.
The difference between families isn't to be underestimated either. According to Hon, only the Khun and Ha family compare to the Arie, which means that if a war unleashes between the Ha and LPB armies, the Ha family would end up winning quite easily. Not to mention that the Hon, Edahn and Yurin are set appart for their melee combat skills among the 10 FHs.
So, in terms of lineage, Ha >(>) LPB, not to mention that Yuri is a princess, who has Z blood on top of her OP genes.
In this case I don't agree because I think Hon is only considering the only known method of fighting Arie's swordplay, which is by tanking with his body and delivering a stronger attack.
However, is this really true? Or is it because the Ha and Koon are the only ones who compete with the Arie?
Ignoring the fact that he is an irregular and taking into account only his WC skills, if Baam can slow down the Arie sword, would it be impossible for a Eurasian WC to do the same? And given what we've seen Sophia do, couldn't a Tperie family LB stop the flow of Shinsoo too or withstand the attacks? Anyway, it's just my perspective, nothing proven.
In addition, I would not say that the family limits talent, because the other lineages that make up the person's family tree and the genetic lottery also influence.
Yihwa has a greater talent than Ran, being her a Yeon and he being a Koon and Kaiser who is just an ID, has a talent considered greater than that of several DD LPB's.
While the twins are clearly stronger than an average DDs even if we remove Z blood, I can't say on a whim that they'd have more potential than the luckiest ever in terms of genetical lottery even if we add Z blood to them.
Until proven otherwise, Zahard's blood only boosts the princesses' physical abilities, nothing more.
Of course, a physically stronger princess will have better reinforcement, but that's not the point.
In the 10 families, whose being a princess is the apex of influence and politics, it is a severe selection, in which many talents are put into play, that is, if you are chosen as one, your talent is at least monstrous.
And this is even more believable for the princesses outside the 10 families, even without any bloodlines, they are extremely talented and powerful.
It has been said that the main factor in selecting a princess is that she can withstand the power of Zahard, which in itself already makes them out of the curve.
Princesses are not talented and monstrous because of Zahard's blood, but because they were chosen to receive it.
Another thing, it doesn't make sense for you to compare versions of dice because there's a lot to develop when you continue to climb the tower or when you become a ranker.
And the data is from the person after completing the HF and if Eduan trained them or at least gave tips?
It just doesn't make sense for you to compare talents like that, more practical for you to compare how much the person climbed in the rankings x their time as a ranker.
She is a beast talentwise, that's for sure but she doesn't come close to Baam. We need to wait at least dozens or hundreds years (which is a little amount of time in the tower) to see any considerable change in her power giving her age.
Well, excluding BS PUs ofc.
In fact, no one can be compared to Baam in terms of growth, but that doesn't mean that other people can't grow quickly, the difference is that Towerborns only do that by becoming rankers.
Adori defeated Garam only after 100 years of becoming a ranker (And we know Garam is a very powerful princess).
In just 400 years of existence (Birth, climbing the tower, becoming a ranker) Enne has reached the top 10.
So yes, talent outside the curve, by becoming rankers, can rise quickly. And this will be even more evident now, with the tower going to war since normally the rankers are stagnant to the point that someone who should be a Blue Hole for so long is still in the top 100 (Ha Jinsung)
She didn't fodderize Varavarg whe she should've, she couldn't fodderize Elaine, she was running away against the giant solider (with Thron Baam and Hansung fighting alongside her) in the hidden floor, similarly, she couldn't fodderize the demon of truth and evil and was struggling against a mere champion villain who specializes in defense.
If she was on the strong side of the princesses, she should've handled all of these situations neg diff.
Androssi is an adopted princess. Shilial, Lilial and Maschenny are princesses of the 10 families, the difference in treatment is stark.
Yuri, upon reaching D-rank, received training from his family members, practicing with a regular A-rank (Cheonhee).
Shilial said she was trained for decades before climbing the tower.
Maschenny has already started to rise knowing his shinsoo quality.
Varagrav has Blood Tamara, we know how powerful the workshop items are, could an Androssi at 30F knowing nothing but reinforcement surpass that? No way.
Kaiser did not win by force, he won by intelligence, they are different things. Furthermore, it makes no sense to use the NHS Kaiser because it was on extremely favorable terms there. She can no longer win by stealing names, her invisible inventory has been destroyed and there are restrictions on a regular use of armor inventory.
Let me guess, you're going to arbitrarilly speculate that Asencio was somehow far weaker in the 30th floor (because you want) and take it as a face-value just in attempt to justify Endorsi's (and Baam's friends in general) pathetic showing in the HF ?
I don't use headcanon, I use feats and statement purely, nothing more nothing less. My whole reasoning is based on the performances of everyone in the data floor, in which case, eveyone in Baam's team (Baam included prior to revolution) was far weaker than any of the Khun trio on the same stage.
Far weaker than what? Than as he was in the hidden floor, equivalent to at least floor 44 (though technically higher considering the hell train's difficulty level)?
I mean, if you have any feats from floor 29 ascensio then sure, post them.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Also, come on, androsi's shinsoo attribute is obviously absurdly strong. We are talking about her being able to summon however many needle like darts which she can control freely... No matter how you look at that that's pretty damn special. And obviously SIU is not going to make androsi not special and not precious. That's just headcannon clashing with wishful thinking and collapsing into itself into rambling nonsense. The hidden floor arc basically reframed bam's companions talent.
I feel like there is maybe a misunderstanding because we don't see potential the same way. When I am talking about potential for the Princesses I am not counting Zahard's blood because it's not part of their innate talent. Zahard's blood boosts your physical abilities, but it doesn't increase your talent/potential.
The girls chosen in their families to become Princesses are probably the most talented in the whole family. I don't have time to reply to certain posts right now but Androssi's abilties for example have been very underdevelopped. She was only relying on Shinsoo Boost + Bong Bong and her physical abilties until she started training with Yuri. A.A and most Regulars were fighting without knowing/using their Attributes unlike Ran and Yihwa.
Maybe Holan is truly the most talented in his family, but there is no reason to believe he is more talented than Yuri. Who seems to be the most talented non-Irregular in the Ha Family. There is also the issue of gender there since men can't become Princesses, but the number of Ha men possibly being more talented than Yuri should be very small(I doubt there are TBH).
Also, if Holan is indeed the one Elaine had a crush on, it would imply that he was more talented than here at least but since he is a man he could have never become a Princess.
I do think Yuri is more talented, but man, Holan is an absolute freak of nature and since I do feel like he's kinda underappreciated in this thread, here I am to put some respect on his name. If this analysis is right on the money, I honestly don't think his opinion of being the most talented LPB bar Traumerei would be by any means far-fetched.
A fair assumption given the lack of detailed info would be that his age is more or less around the other Hatchlings (both are part of the new wave/generation of the Family). Hatchlings are the rising stars that are expected to one day become the successors of the current Branch Leaders (who are on average around Top 200, entry Top 300 at the bare minimum given Lefav's comments), yet let's look at the feats/portrayal of them so far:
Sicarius was introduced as an Advanced Ranker who could easily immobilize Mule Love initially, but later on, it was shown that Mule Love could still annoy him a little by running away and blind him with a blast. His best feat was blocking one of Evankhell's flame attacks with his net, but it became clear a few seconds later that base tired Evankhell wasn't even trying and that Sicarius would have been wiped out on the spot with the next attack. With all of this in mind, the most reasonable assumption is that he was around the level of an Advanced Ranker, as he got introduced. You could perhaps argue for entry High Ranker if you give more emphasis on the feat against Evankhell, but Mule Love managing to do all of that against him strongly puts limits.
I don't recall Meier and Candidy being introduced as Advanced Rankers, but their feats aren't a lot better tbh. Candidy couldn't outright destroy a Lefav that wasn't even as strong as a High Ranker by statements. She was shown to have the advantage, but Lefav could still somewhat hold her ground. In contrast, Base Paul (someone who I'd argue to be more akin to a Division Commander) could instantly wipe out an Advanced Ranker like Culden without even trying. Moreover, a tired version of Hansung who shouldn't really be that comparable to a Division Commander was shown on multiple occasions to overwhelm the both of them put together. Candidy also seemed to show some relief at the thought that the Lefav they were facing wasn't as strong as a High Ranker. Based on all of this, it's pretty clear that if Meier and Candidy are High Rankers, they're at the bottom of the barrel. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they are on the strong side of Advanced Rankers either.
Orari's only feat was getting fodderized off-screen by the Boss, so we can't grant him a level, but if the showings of the other Hatchlings are something to go by, he was probably around the strong side of Advanced Ranker-Entry High Ranker level. That's where I'd put all the others.
Now, this is when the insane shit comes. Considering their status, all of these people are expected to one day reach a level comparable to an average Branch Leader (more likely around Top 200; entry Top 300 at the bare minimum) if they live long enough and the right conditions meet. Let's look at Holan:
He can't handle a CC Tier fighter by Pudidy's words, but he's still portrayed as a valuable asset in a fight against them. He could put pressure to Jinsung with his attacks. The first one pushed him back in spite of blocking and tore apart his sleeve and the second one seemed to do an even better job before Baam intervened. Tbh, one could very fairly argue that those are more impressive feats than El Robina (an anti-High Ranker weapon, there are only 10 in the Tower or so according to Jinsung) or Maschenny's Tres Cuernos. They could not be as impressive as I'm making them out to be if we consider Jinsung's arms still being partially damaged from his fight against Kalla, but it's clear that's some serious firepower nonetheless IMO.
Hansung mistakenly believed he was around Evankhell's level and on par with Pudidy and Perseus. This was proven wrong, but it still suggests that Holan's presence is good enough to warrant a mistake like this. That means he shouldn't be canon fodder material to a Corps Commander most likely, even if he's clearly not comparable to them.
IMO, an argument could be made for Holan to already be on the lower end of Top 300 strength-wise (regardless if his rank is actually up there or not). He might already be around the level of the weakest Branch Leaders even. It doesn't sound far-fetched. The fact that he's a relevant asset in a fight of that level by itself is something that already puts him far, far above the level of a Division Commander for the very least.
Now, the assumptions come. If we assume his age is more or less the same as the other Hatchlings, we assume the other Hatchlings can reach the level of an average Branch Leader if they live long enough and the right conditions meet, and that the amount of potential Holan is yet to realize is similar to that of the other Hatchlings, I'd argue Peak Holan would be so far above a Branch Leader that it wouldn't even be funny. Average BH level potentialities simply would look like canon fodder material of the highest order for him. The gap would simply be astonishingly massive.
If all of this is right, I believe Holan could easily have similar potential to the two LPB Regents, who are stated to be on a level unreachable for Evankhell tier threats like the Top 3 Branch Leaders. It wouldn't be at all surprising to find out he's actually more talented than them either. He himself said he's never seen a talent greater than him in his Family and that the only person he thought was actually more talented than him was Traumerei himself. It certainly doesn't seem far-fetched by any means. Peak Holan could easily be Top 50, and perhaps even Top 30/40 if he lives long enough IMO, and assuming all of the assumptions I made are right.
Yuri, on the other hand, was said to be the most talented person in her Family. Other than Ha Yurin, I think no one else has a strong reason to be excluded from this yet. I reckon the Ha Twins are likely Top 30 material, so Peak Yuri should be here as well. I do think her and Holan have the potential to become the strongest of their respective Families, excluding just the Family Head (in the case of the LPB Family, Lilial and Shilial could be contenders though). Only that:
Yuri is far more relevant to the plot than Holan.
She belongs to a Family that's portrayed to be stronger than the Lo Po Bia Family.
Has Zahard's blood on top of that.
So yeah, Yuri should be well beyond him talent-wise IMO, but both are monsters in their own right. The fact that Holan might actually be this good while belonging to an overall weaker lineage (Ha > Lo Po Bia in general) and without having Zahard's blood either might legitimately make him more impressive than Yuri IMO, unless Yuri had this potential before Z's blood boost, which is not impossible by any means either.
The power-leveling discussion gives me the same headache as Jinsung V Kallavan round 2, or some of the others.
To be fair, SIU likes fights with vague outcomes and mitigating circumstances (so and so didn't, or couldn't, go all out, or were tired, or nerfed somehow, or missing a weapon, or someone intervenes, etc etc).
That said, re: Holan, I don't think it's coincidental that he has a vast array of ancient, living fossil shinheuh, which we don't see anywhere but perhaps with Rei himself. That alone, and the prospect that he may be able to 'retrieve' long-dead animals, puts him in his own category.
Talk of comparing potential and current levels, and assuming growth rates stay the same, is very difficult to do otherwise. I like to look at greater contexts, but it's all still left open for interpretation oftentimes.
