Discussion Rachel As a Character

[Azure🐬]

Rachel is depicted as a normal human being. She’s someone with whom you can sympathize and feel more related to. These characteristics are from a good character but maybe not enough to be likable. She looks pathetic. The word pathetic has been written all over her mediocre face. Maybe, the best term to describe her might be ‘tragic anti-hero’. Hero because SIU does not want to make her an antagonist at the end of the story but an ally to the protagonist somehow. An anti-hero may be an outcast or a villain from the point of view of society, the cast, or even the audience, but with whom many audiences can sympathize. Tragic heroes are central figures of the story who are not admirable or likable and whose actions may even be deplorable. If she's a tragic hero (I'm not sure about that), she will never overcome her inner demons and will get destroyed by them. The flaw will win in the end.
She’s out of tune with these weird characters. In a fantasy world where power is everything, everyone looks super powerful compared to her. She’s out of place in this world. Maybe, she could be much better in a drama but not here. If a character with these qualities wants to survive in this world, she should have huge plot armors. She should have strong connections to achieve her goal without being special. You can’t justify these connections just by the title of ‘irregular’ without saying what’s so special about her (remind you of her description by Gustang and Headon). SIU has made her a mysterious character who knows a lot about Bam. Bam can’t have access to this information about his identity and because of that, he should follow her. She will reveal information bit by bit to be relatable to the story.
As Androssi and Khun have said, they didn’t understand Bam and Rachel's relationship. You might try to understand their relationship, but you’re not able to fully understand it. After all, who’s been in his situation? There is only one person in your life and she’s the center of your universe? She’s like the meaning of his existence and life. Something in that order of importance.
Let's look at Khun's dialogue with Evan about his relationship with Bam, which is somehow can help to understand Bam and Rachel's relationship:
Khun: “Life itself may not have any real meaning, you know? Is being obsessed with breathing and blood flowing through your body really living? In order to find a meaning for me being born and living, don’t I have to find something more important than that? If something comes up where I have to put my life on the line to go with it, what meaning would the rest of my life have if I were to miss that? Right now, I feel like the end of the world will come if Bam isn’t here. I can sort of understand how Bam felt waiting for Rachel every day. He probably felt the world would end if Rachel disappeared. I never thought I would understand their relationship. This is insane.” (Looks like their relationship was not enough and SIU added a similar ridiculous relationship like that to the story, this time for Khun).
For around 400 chapters, this relationship was the major driving force for Bam. I can understand it and accept Bam’s simping until some point not until more than halfway through the story. That is why their relationship makes readers frustrated. Half of the story was about the emotional aspect of the relationship, and the other is about revealing secrets about their past. At least I hope I don't see that painful cycle of simping, again.

P.S.: 1: I took the term “tragic anti-hero’ and its descriptions from The Writer’s Journey by Christopher Vogler. It’s a great book, but unfortunately, I have only read its hero section. It’s about archetypes that writers have used at different times and in different cultures.

2: As I said I used hero because I thought SIU has planned this for Rachel from the beginning. Although, there is some evidence for this they are in no way conclusive. Maybe, he just sees her as a driving force for Bam or maybe something more. Blogpost Chapter 226: “On the relationship between Bam and Rachel… Since Rachel is the one who can shake up Bam the most Perhaps it’s Rachel’s role to drive the change in Bam.” In the story, she’s an antagonist who is against the protagonist, Bam, fighting for the same goal. Or SIU understands the concept of antagonism differently from me. I used 'tragic' because I always thought she would have a tragic end. I'm not sure anymore. I have doubts that SIU will write a tragic ending for her favorite character when he doesn't kill unimportant characters.

3: I see some people attribute the characteristic charisma to Rachel to prove something about her irregular position. This is a subjective characteristic. Some can feel it, some cannot. It has been proposed some characteristics of charismatic leaders aside from that innate quality but Rachel is not qualified enough to meet that criteria. And the purpose of those characteristics is to explain the feeling we have toward charismatic leaders, which returns us to the first point, a completely subjective characteristic. We have three occasions, as long as I know, the characters talked about having strange feelings for her. The first one was Androssi. She felt she was from a different world. Second, the traveler felt something dangerous about her, and the last one, De Jah on the Floor of Death felt an ominous feeling.

4: Her most important characteristic I can think of, which is useful, is breaking rules because of being irregular. SIU intends to save her character by giving Emily to her.

5: An anti-hero doesn't mean the opposite of a hero. They are special kinds of heroes who are unlike conventional ones.

Hi! I am late to this thread.
Your points were pretty interesting.
When I first saw Rachel, I thought she was really cute ( I started reading TOG due to the anime).
She has been really complex. Sometimes I sympathise with her, sometimes I hate on her.
I feel like she has been stuck in a vicious cycle ever since the Test floor.
Most people mention her backstabbing as the worst thing. Personally, I would say that in Tog atleast one member in a team is like that.
What really drives my hate towards her is that she is always whining about herself and has zero guilt about anything she does.
It's like if you show her a person with 99 problams and 1 good thing then she would point her finger at that 1 good thing and say, " Why don't I have that? God is unfair. "
What makes her hatable is her personality but sometimes people take it a bit too far with simultaneously hating on her appearance ( I can understand people are just kidding but still..)
But at the same time, I think something is wrong with "Rachel Defense Force" trying to justify her actions and arguing that " Rachel did nothing wrong".
When it comes to relatable and flawed characters, there are a lot of them out there, it doesn't have to be Rachel. ( I mean it's kind of concerning if you relate to Rachel too much).

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

When I first saw Rachel, I thought she was really cute ( I started reading TOG due to the anime).

Her character or do you mean physically, or both?

Bc that's a pretty unique opinion to say the least.

 

[Azure🐬]

Her character or do you mean physically, or both?

Bc that's a pretty unique opinion to say the least.

Her voice and appearance in anime at first.
Then, her character started manifesting and I couldn't see anything but ugliness.

 

[Wha]

Hell, she already has made it out of the cave system and into the tower - freedom achieved! Each floor is continent-sized. And (other than perhaps 1F, 2F, 43F, and 133F) she could have lifetimes of freedoms in a place the size of multiple real-world Earths.

Isn't this exactly like in the real world?
Sometimes, the more money (or other things) someone has got, the more he wants.

At first, he might be happy if they have enough money to get threw the day. But then they think about months, years, their kids, their grandkids,.....it's never enough.
DId you ever notice that, generally speaking, the less someone has, the more they usually give (of course there are exceptions)?
And the other way around.

TOG has good material to talk about ethical discussions. Whether they are really grey or not?

That was true. As of now, i am not so sure anymore. Take the whole FUG angle with Bam as an example. They kidnap him and make him into their slayer without his consent.
There are reasons for that and you could argue that it's not just bad. Or Jinsung and Hansung. They aren't good or bad, more like grey. Buuuuut there is the latest talk between Jinsung and Traumerei, which kinda contradicts the previous angle.
Because one time it counts, the other it doesn't?
Unless SIU plans a hypocrite angle with Jinsung.

 

[Aliblack]

That was true. As of now, i am not so sure anymore. Take the whole FUG angle with Bam as an example. They kidnap him and make him into their slayer without his consent.
There are reasons for that and you could argue that it's not just bad. Or Jinsung and Hansung. They aren't good or bad, more like grey. Buuuuut there is the latest talk between Jinsung and Traumerei, which kinda contradicts the previous angle.
Because one time it counts, the other it doesn't?
Unless SIU plans a hypocrite angle with Jinsung.

As I said, I don't think there is always greyness, and in some cases, it's pure black. Take White, for example, I don't know how much mental gymnastics you need to make him grey. He's pure black. The Tower of God is not as grey as many think. However, I really SIU has done a good job. He's not an ethical philosopher, after all. It's extremely difficult to make a world completely grey. I'm sure many find these situations in the story grey and many don't.
About Jinsung's case, I think Jinsung in a panel said I used to be like that, that is to say like Traumerei. Characters tend to justify their own actions and be selfish. Yes, in a monologue, Jinsung says I used Bam for my own revenge but I couldn't say sorry to him. It's a poor excuse. So yes, he is no place to blame someone when he's done the same a few years ago.

 

[Azure🐬]

As I said, I don't think there is always greyness, and in some cases, it's pure black. Take White, for example, I don't know how much mental gymnastics you need to make him grey. He's pure black. The Tower of God is not as grey as many think. However, I really SIU has done a good job. He's not an ethical philosopher, after all. It's extremely difficult to make a world completely grey. I'm sure many find these situations in the story grey and many don't.
About Jinsung's case, I think Jinsung in a panel said I used to be like that, that is to say like Traumerei. Characters tend to justify their own actions and be selfish. Yes, in a monologue, Jinsung says I used Bam for my own revenge but I couldn't say sorry to him. It's a poor excuse. So yes, he is no place to blame someone when he's done the same a few years ago.

I think the Jinsung- Rei- Baam conversation was really bad. It gave rise to hypocrite issues for both HJ and Baam( not that there wasn't to begin with). But, concerning the audience of TOG, I can see a huge split in opinion in which one section of people would totally fail to understand what was wrong with the "consent" thing and worship Baam for his moralities( as good and nice as those morals are, this is not the place for them).
It's as if the projection of those cringy dialogues were supposed to make us feel a certain way( and ik some would totally give in to that) but reading in between lines, reading the atmosphere gives you a completely different feeling.
While season 3 had a lot of problems that we tried to both reason out and criticise, this conversation was the worst part of it( atleast for me).
And as someone who has loved Baam and HJ for a really long time, it pains me to even think about it.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Isn't this exactly like in the real world?
Sometimes, the more money (or other things) someone has got, the more he wants.

At first, he might be happy if they have enough money to get threw the day. But then they think about months, years, their kids, their grandkids,.....it's never enough.
DId you ever notice that, generally speaking, the less someone has, the more they usually give (of course there are exceptions)?
And the other way around.

Now, compound that by the ability to live for unknown real-world lifetimes; immortality essentially for rankers and certainly for the irregulars with the immortality contract. 20k++ years of that 'never enough' to run amock and rot their brains just like Jinsung says.

Kind of how vampires are typically twisted, despotic, amoral, etc - a constant, unquenchable hunger/thirst that persists in perpetuity with their lifespan, turning them deviant.

Take White, for example, I don't know how much mental gymnastics you need to make him grey. He's pure black. The Tower of God is not as grey as many think.

The Case for White (devil's advocate style):

White consists of once-kids led astray by their emotionally-unavailable, neglectful father (as are all the FHs), giving them extreme abandonment issues from an early age, and priming them to justify anything to acquire his just-out-of-reach love.

More importantly, he sent them on a fool's errand, suicidal if unsuccessful (harmful if successful), to commune with literal demon(s). They became twisted at a very early age, before you might even say they could be morally-accountable, but certainly before full adulthood. Demonic possession and influence put upon them, particularly Hoaqin who used his naive siblings really, was more than a young adult could take (or anyone for that matter) - and makes him/them a victim of sorts.

If you were controlled/influenced by an actual demon, you would get a pass as that's no longer 'you' in the driver's seat.

 

[Aliblack]

Now, compound that by the ability to live for unknown real-world lifetimes; immortality essentially for rankers and certainly for the irregulars with the immortality contract. 20k++ years of that 'never enough' to run amock and rot their brains just like Jinsung says.

Kind of how vampires are typically twisted, despotic, amoral, etc - a constant, unquenchable hunger/thirst that persists in perpetuity with their lifespan, turning them deviant.



The Case for White (devil's advocate style):

White consists of once-kids led astray by their emotionally-unavailable, neglectful father (as are all the FHs), giving them extreme abandonment issues from an early age, and priming them to justify anything to acquire his just-out-of-reach love.

More importantly, he sent them on a fool's errand, suicidal if unsuccessful (harmful if successful), to commune with literal demon(s). They became twisted at a very early age, before you might even say they could be morally-accountable, but certainly before full adulthood. Demonic possession and influence put upon them, particularly Hoaqin who used his naive siblings really, was more than a young adult could take (or anyone for that matter) - and makes him/them a victim of sorts.

If you were controlled/influenced by an actual demon, you would get a pass as that's no longer 'you' in the driver's seat.

S2 E319: Arie Hon to Hoaqin (Hoa went to Hon to find out what he meant by his previous remarks): “What I meant was I see the seeds of a demon in you. So leave this place. Go to the deep, dump, and the dark lair of evil- that’s the best place for you to develop your power. While you’re there, use your rage towards me as fuel and increase your power by burning and devouring the souls of the weak. Perhaps, you’re destined to fail and ultimately be incinerated but that is what you were born for. Don’t deceive yourself. Give yourself over to the joys and pleasures of murder. Until everything seems pointless someday (we can see a demon in the background of Hoaqin).”
Blogpost: "In this episode, what Arie Hon said to Hoaquin, can be looked at as Hon looks through Hoaquin’s nature. House heads have good intuitions that are almost like fortune-telling."

Looks like this implies they have some kind of nature (evil or not) that might not be avoidable. Whether this position is defensible or not in real life doesn't matter much because, in this world, there is a natural rule like that. However, it doesn't excuse Hon for saying that stuff and sending him on that path. Maybe, he did it because he could somewhat see the future like Zahard.

The question that he's morally accountable or not depends on whether he had free will or not. Free will, in turn, depends on your capability for rational thinking and rational decision-making. I agree that he as a child in that fragile state of mind couldn't make a rational decision, and grabbed the evil's hand. However, I believe this doesn't excuse him. Because the demon didn't take his free will completely. If I remember correctly, he killed his mentor when he told him he had changed, not Hon. I guess this was after his deal with the demon. He decided to kill the mentor. He had an insatiable thirst for power and souls until the end, but it was not like he couldn't stop it. Daniel had the same situation but he could somewhat control his thirst for souls.
It's true that our ethical feeling mostly forms when we are in our childhood. It's not like they won't change during your lifetime. A rightful person can get corrupt someday and vice versa. These emotions are not just based on mere intuitions. You can argue for a just society and right actions. For example, in a consequentialist position, you can argue that when you avoid evil deeds, in the far future, you will gain something in return. In the process of living based on this belief, you will naturally obtain some moral feelings for others, say, compassion. If you remember, White himself argued for his actions. He had ethics for himself. He believed in power-based ethics and that power is the most important virtue. People get divided into the weak and powerful. The strong have a right to do whatever they want to the weak. This is the nature of humans and the rule of the tower.
The most important point is the extreme extent of his actions: killing billions of people. Context of the action, your childhood conditions, your state of mind, intentions, and many other factors might influence our judgment of a person or an action, whether they are good or bad, right or wrong. However, all of these have limits. Killing on this scale can't be justified easily unless you take a very rare moral position. I understand him and know why he chose that path but what he did was morally insane.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

S2 E319: Arie Hon to Hoaqin (Hoa went to Hon to find out what he meant by his previous remarks): “What I meant was I see the seeds of a demon in you. So leave this place. Go to the deep, dump, and the dark lair of evil- that’s the best place for you to develop your power. While you’re there, use your rage towards me as fuel and increase your power by burning and devouring the souls of the weak. Perhaps, you’re destined to fail and ultimately be incinerated but that is what you were born for. Don’t deceive yourself. Give yourself over to the joys and pleasures of murder. Until everything seems pointless someday (we can see a demon in the background of Hoaqin).”
Blogpost: "In this episode, what Arie Hon said to Hoaquin, can be looked at as Hon looks through Hoaquin’s nature. House heads have good intuitions that are almost like fortune-telling."

Looks like this implies they have some kind of nature (evil or not) that might be avoidable. Whether this position is defensible or not in real life doesn't matter much because, in this world, there is a natural rule like that. However, it doesn't excuse Hon for saying that stuff and sending him on that path. Maybe, he did it because he could somewhat see the future like Zahard.

The question that he's morally accountable or not depends on whether he had free will or not. Free will, in turn, depends on your capability for rational thinking and rational decision-making. I agree that he as a child in that fragile state of mind couldn't make a rational decision, and grabbed the evil's hand. However, I believe this doesn't excuse him. Because the demon didn't take his free will completely. If I remember correctly, he killed his mentor when he told him he had changed, not Hon. I guess this was after his deal with the demon. He decided to kill the mentor. He had an insatiable thirst for power and souls until the end, but it was not like he couldn't stop it. Daniel had the same situation but he could somewhat control his thirst for souls.
It's true that our ethical feeling mostly forms when we are in our childhood. It's not like they won't change during your lifetime. A rightful person can be corrupt someday and vice versa. These emotions are not just based on mere intuitions. You can argue for a just society and right actions. For example, in a consequentialist position, you can argue that when you avoid evil deeds, in the far future, you will gain something in return. In the process of living based on this belief, you will naturally obtain some moral feelings for others, say, compassion. If you remember, White himself argued for his actions. He had ethics for himself. He believed in power-based ethics and that power is the most important virtue. People get divided into the weak and powerful. The strong have a right to do whatever they want to the weak. This is the nature of humans and the rule of the tower.
The most important point is the extreme extent of his actions: killing billions of people. Context of the action, your childhood conditions, your state of mind, intentions, and many other factors might influence our judgment of a person or an action, whether they are good or bad, right or wrong. However, all of these have limits. Killing on this scale can't be justified easily unless you take a very rare moral position. I understand him and know why he chose that path but what he did was morally insane.

I'm not justifying White's actions (beyond the mental exercise of doing just that), and you bring up something else to address that is relevant.

A) re: free will - that's entirely my point. Perhaps Hoaqin was predisposed to such a fate, as seen by Hon. Perhaps it just needed the nudge by Hon to create White (I think he sent the book to Hoaqin after all). In any event, my whole post bringing up the demon is we don't know how much it - the literal demon - became a part of his psyche, or influenced it beyond his own control or agency. Yes, he embraced it, but this was while young and under the influence of youth and at the direction of his father, a supremely powerful being that a child would have difficulty saying 'no' to. At that particular moment, I would say his actions are excusable, only this sets his trajectory. IIRC, he woke up and knew the spell to use for his siblings. This means the demon visited him at night. Like 'Let the Right One In' the demon was waiting to be invited, but once over the threshold of his mind so to speak we don't know how much Hoaqin was permanently influenced. As such, IF he was possessed for a better lack of a word, he would no longer have the ability to step back from the ledge as you mention a currupted person can 'come clean' (see: Jinsung's change of heart). He would be in a cemented state of evil, but perhaps not even being aware of such a change in his own state of mind. THAT hybrid entity is very dark, yes. But if a child makes a contract with a demon and becomes evil in doing so, it does create an issue with whether or not they are to be held accountable for their actions once preprogrammed to do as the demon desires - even in their adult age. Because the damage was done, excusable or not, by someone that was child-aged, not necessarily even knowing what they were dealing with. I'm reminded of a song by Mercyful Fate: A Dangerous Meeting

Tonight the circle is meeting again
Who will be the first to fall in trance
In here nobody is sensing the rain
Tonight the spirit will glance
So as they're approaching ghostly hour
Seven people here are joining hands
They think they know the spirit to appear
Contact, the table starts to dance
Time is standing still
It's a dangerous meeting
They're gonna get themselves killed
Tonight the circle is broken forever
Seven people dead within a trance
In here nobody is sensing the rain
Tonight seven souls are reaching hell
Time was standing still
The meeting is over
Their journey is on
Oh, they should have known
Not to play with the powers of Hell
Some people have lost their way
Some people have lost their mind

Which is, in effect, a tale of caution. Humans playing with powers beyond their capabilities of reason, and getting bit in the process. They are victims in their own way - naive to what they bring on themselves. Making a deal with the devil in exchange for your life or soul or humanity or something (see: Spawn or similar) you hold dear is a tale as old as time.

Now, factor in the fact these were KIDS, and their mistake is even more understandable, verging on forgivable all things considered.

Basically, the child Hoaqin could have essentially died in the past, although not literally, when making a deal with a demon, losing his humanity in the process. The result is a demon-driven entity that looks a lot like Hoaqin, and even shares his same goals, but now goes about the worst way of ends justifying the means, which of course he self-justifies just as you point out. If it has a human mind it has now been forever twisted (as his soul) into embracing murder and mayhem. Souls and demons are big themes with the Arie, IMO, not just White, and seeing as Hon considers his progeny to just be 'things' to be used as a part of his Sword (literally or figuratively, or both), I think Hon is just creating strong Arie to then maybe absorb (perhaps quite literally) into his being or Arie essence to further power-up or shore up his family's might. Or, again, maybe he was just bored and the story of the creation of White is even more tragic.

But, then there is

B) The Tower System itself. This gets into the value of life in the tower. We can't apply real-world ethics as you've said before. If souls here are NPCs, they are nothing to cry over. If the tower is cold and calculating and only exists to create an axis, while upholding rules that will support one day spitting one out, it doens't really matter what someone does or doesn't do so long as the greater rules are followed that will culture an axis. Not Zahard, not White, no one is really to 'blame' because there is no creator that will take issue with anything they do so long as they color inside the lines, not the admin, nor the tower itself, nor even a 'god' in or out of the tower. There is no divine justice or punishment. It is truly set up as a 'might makes right' environment. And if the tower denizens are just artificial creations to interact with irregulars brought in to farm an irregular (truly NPCs in any event), then White's actions (as an NPC himself) are inconsequential.

 

[Aliblack]

I'm not justifying White's actions (beyond the mental exercise of doing just that), and you bring up something else to address that is relevant.

A) re: free will - that's entirely my point. Perhaps Hoaqin was predisposed to such a fate, as seen by Hon. Perhaps it just needed the nudge by Hon to create White (I think he sent the book to Hoaqin after all). In any event, my whole post bringing up the demon is we don't know how much it - the literal demon - became a part of his psyche, or influenced it beyond his own control or agency. Yes, he embraced it, but this was while young and under the influence of youth and at the direction of his father, a supremely powerful being that a child would have difficulty saying 'no' to. At that particular moment, I would say his actions are excusable, only this sets his trajectory. IIRC, he woke up and knew the spell to use for his siblings. This means the demon visited him at night. Like 'Let the Right One In' the demon was waiting to be invited, but once over the threshold of his mind so to speak we don't know how much Hoaqin was permanently influenced. As such, IF he was possessed for a better lack of a word, he would no longer have the ability to step back from the ledge as you mention a currupted person can 'come clean' (see: Jinsung's change of heart). He would be in a cemented state of evil, but perhaps not even being aware of such a change in his own state of mind. THAT hybrid entity is very dark, yes. But if a child makes a contract with a demon and becomes evil in doing so, it does create an issue with whether or not they are to be held accountable for their actions once preprogrammed to do as the demon desires - even in their adult age. Because the damage was done, excusable or not, by someone that was child-aged, not necessarily even knowing what they were dealing with. I'm reminded of a song by Mercyful Fate: A Dangerous Meeting

Tonight the circle is meeting again
Who will be the first to fall in trance
In here nobody is sensing the rain
Tonight the spirit will glance
So as they're approaching ghostly hour
Seven people here are joining hands
They think they know the spirit to appear
Contact, the table starts to dance
Time is standing still
It's a dangerous meeting
They're gonna get themselves killed
Tonight the circle is broken forever
Seven people dead within a trance
In here nobody is sensing the rain
Tonight seven souls are reaching hell
Time was standing still
The meeting is over
Their journey is on
Oh, they should have known
Not to play with the powers of Hell
Some people have lost their way
Some people have lost their mind

Which is, in effect, a tale of caution. Humans playing with powers beyond their capabilities of reason, and getting bit in the process. They are victims in their own way - naive to what they bring on themselves. Making a deal with the devil in exchange for your life or soul or humanity or something (see: Spawn or similar) you hold dear is a tale as old as time.

Now, factor in the fact these were KIDS, and their mistake is even more understandable, verging on forgivable all things considered.

Basically, the child Hoaqin could have essentially died in the past, although not literally, when making a deal with a demon, losing his humanity in the process. The result is a demon-driven entity that looks a lot like Hoaqin, and even shares his same goals, but now goes about the worst way of ends justifying the means, which of course he self-justifies just as you point out. If it has a human mind it has now been forever twisted (as his soul) into embracing murder and mayhem. Souls and demons are big themes with the Arie, IMO, not just White, and seeing as Hon considers his progeny to just be 'things' to be used as a part of his Sword (literally or figuratively, or both), I think Hon is just creating strong Arie to then maybe absorb (perhaps quite literally) into his being or Arie essence to further power-up or shore up his family's might. Or, again, maybe he was just bored and the story of the creation of White is even more tragic.

But, then there is

About your first point, you've assumed that he might have sold his humanity (basically his moral emotions). I'm sure he didn't lose them when he made the contact with the demon. He cried over his mentor's death. He felt sad about killing someone dear to him but chose that path. So if the demon heavily influences his psyche aside from his thirst for power (souls)? We don't know and therefore we should never talk about it. We should talk about things we know and things that the story let us know.
You referenced some cultural stories that demons might control your soul. The most famous reference that I know in western literature is Faust. He sold his soul to the demon too. SIU has been definitely inspired by these stories but how much? You should conclude only by what TOG presents to you, not something else. Hoaqin, long before the appearance of the demon, was in search of power. He wanted to surpass his father, which was considered impossible in the whole tower. That's why the demon appeared before him. Why didn't he appear before Vicente? Maybe, because of Hon's words, there was a greater chance that he would grab his hand. And maybe, his evil nature would do the work. Vicente blamed him not the demon and White proudly accepted what he's done. He argued left and right for his actions. This comes from someone who has free will. He might have an illusion of free will. This is true but this extends to the whole tower and maybe even us readers. So suppose you think everything is deterministic (call it fate or natural laws) but feel, at the same time, that you're responsible for your actions (maybe an illusion). What should you do? This has been referenced a few times in TOG like on the floor of death. I want to make a thread about fate and these questions so I won't talk about it here that much. I digressed a little so I'll summarize my point: We only see the demon has influenced his search for souls only. And we saw that he could control his thirst for souls several times. Someone else (Daniel) with similar powers could do the same.

B) The Tower System itself. This gets into the value of life in the tower. We can't apply real-world ethics as you've said before. If souls here are NPCs, they are nothing to cry over. If the tower is cold and calculating and only exists to create an axis, while upholding rules that will support one day spitting one out, it doens't really matter what someone does or doesn't do so long as the greater rules are followed that will culture an axis. Not Zahard, not White, no one is really to 'blame' because there is no creator that will take issue with anything they do so long as they color inside the lines, not the admin, nor the tower itself, nor even a 'god' in or out of the tower. There is no divine justice or punishment. It is truly set up as a 'might makes right' environment. And if the tower denizens are just artificial creations to interact with irregulars brought in to farm an irregular (truly NPCs in any event), then White's actions (as an NPC himself) are inconsequential.

When I said a consequentialist argues like that, I didn't mean you would be rewarded or punished by some divine or natural power. Basically, most philosophers believe ethics doesn't depend on God (extend it to the tower). I meant you would gain a benefit in return from the society. The more they follow these rules the greater benefits everyone gains. You see even in the tower they follow some rules. I paid attention to something. That even the evilest people in the tower, more or less, keep their promise. Even White said I would keep my promise. When they bet on something, even if they lose they would accept it. I meant this kind of give-and-take. Some kind of natural ethics that is not based on a divine being. And I said the consequentialist as an example. That's not the only argument you can provide.
And another point that I wanted to make. These competitions for climbing the tower and killing people to reach your dreams are not something the tower intended from the beginning (this is my guess). We know that irregulars can take the admins' test so only they should be able to climb. They fought with shinheuh to pass the tests. Now, we see regulars can climb by talking tests from rulers and they compete with humans. What changed in the tower to make this possible? I only think of Zahard and his fellows. Those who are said ruined the tower. In chapter 101, Wangnang says he wants to change the tower because someone (Zahard) has made these rules that they compete to death to climb the tower. Wangnan's dream is to make a place for everyone to live happily, a place not as suffocating as the tower. Bam and his friends (including Wangnang) will change this tower which makes numerous people suffer. In the end, we might find out that Zahard has not made those rules but we now only have this information.