Discussion Mystery Team SPAIN

[-Ken-]

And like I already say several times, there is nothing at all that suggest Switzerland power is weaken in the story. Unless you can prove that, there's no reason to doubt QP statement.

By " just don't take character statements at face value ", you simply ignore what is canon in the story, that's all.

 

[ShadowHeart]

And like I already say several times, there is nothing at all that suggest Switzerland power is weaken in the story. Unless you can prove that, there's no reason to doubt QP statement.

By " just don't take character statements at face value ", you simply ignore what is canon in the story, that's all.

You act like characters can't be wrong in stories. Like QP was he said Switzerland was their biggest threat to winning 9 straight titles. But we know America are stronger than Switzerland even without the brothers. And Spain crushed America even without using there best players. So at least 2 teams stronger than Switzerland.

 

[LetalHawk]

You act like characters can't be wrong in stories. Like QP was he said Switzerland was their biggest threat to winning 9 straight titles. But we know America are stronger than Switzerland even without the brothers. And Spain crushed America even without using there best players. So at least 2 teams stronger than Switzerland.

Because QP statements didn’t take into account America’s potential to break into the big four this year or even Spain having this level of threat.

You’re right, of course. Characters can be wrong at times and commit mistakes, and QP is no exception. He also thought that France would beat Japan and look what happened, the data he had on other countries wasn’t spot on and he thought Switzerland was their biggest obstacle, when Japan and other countries were quickly on the rise and overcame his data.

What a character states in the manga like he did isn’t 100% true.

 

[-Ken-]

You act like characters can't be wrong in stories. Like QP was he said Switzerland was their biggest threat to winning 9 straight titles. But we know America are stronger than Switzerland even without the brothers. And Spain crushed America even without using there best players. So at least 2 teams stronger than Switzerland.

That means America and Spain are a bigger threat than QP expects. That doesn't mean Switzerland is not a threat at all.

 

[LetalHawk]

And like I already say several times, there is nothing at all that suggest Switzerland power is weaken in the story. Unless you can prove that, there's no reason to doubt QP statement.

By " just don't take character statements at face value ", you simply ignore what is canon in the story, that's all.

He was wrong in a lot of things. He thought France would beat Japan and that the Swiss were going to be their biggest threat. America managed to beat Switzerland without the Echizen brothers and Japan is in the finals and beat Germany, hadn’t Alan forfeit his match they would have won 3-1. He was too sure about his data and therefore they had the carpet pulled from underneath them.

QP’s statement can be doubted of course, it was crystal clear from the beginning that all the data he had would be surpassed by players and other countries potential.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Because QP statements didn’t take into account America’s potential to break into the big four this year or even Spain having this level of threat.

You’re right, of course. Characters can be wrong at times and commit mistakes, and QP is no exception. He also thought that France would beat Japan and look what happened, the data he had on other countries wasn’t spot on and he thought Switzerland was their biggest obstacle, when Japan and other countries were quickly on the rise and overcame his data.

What a character states in the manga like he did isn’t 100% true.

Exactly he was wrong not about 1 thing but a few things. Bet he thought Switzerland would beat Australia too. We know Volk can beat any Switzerland player. Germany also have the no.1 doubles pair in the tournament so that's 2 wins. I'm sure QP could beat any Switzerland rep that isn’t Amadeus and that match even before his power up was 50-50 probably leaning in Amadeus favor to be fair. And thata not even talking about Tezuka or Bismarick.

 

[LetalHawk]

That means America and Spain are a bigger threat than QP expects. That doesn't mean Switzerland is not a threat at all.

Yeah. Even nobody talked about Spain during the whole tournament and they were killing their opponents left and right.

I do think that they’re stronger than Germany, not by a large margin but a bit stronger than them. Ryoga and Medanore are above both Volk and QP probably, and their other players could be on the same level or even stronger than players like Bismarck, we’ll have to wait for it to see them in action and I hope they show why they managed to crush America.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Yeah. Even nobody talked about Spain during the whole tournament and they were killing their opponents left and right.

I do think that they’re stronger than Germany, not by a large margin but a bit stronger than them. Ryoga and Medanore are above both Volk and QP probably, and their other players could be on the same level or even stronger than players like Bismarck, we’ll have to wait for it to see them in action and I hope they show why they managed to crush America.

What if it's revealed other than Ryoga Spain didn't use their starters?

 

[Hardy]

Spain walked over USA without using Medanore and some other guys, and USA had basically defeated Switzerland, a top nation, 4-1... If we don't see them as at least as strong as Germany then Konomi did a terrible job with USA as jobbers, lol.

What if it's revealed other than Ryoga Spain didn't use their starters?

Would be a missed opportunity imo. For example, I'd rather have a pair and some sort of flashback showing them beating Kiko-Dodo or something like that.

That said given that one dude was in jail and the "twins are missing ", maybe they did rotate their Msers.

 

[-Ken-]

Exactly he was wrong not about 1 thing but a few things. Bet he thought Switzerland would beat Australia too. We know Volk can beat any Switzerland player. Germany also have the no.1 doubles pair in the tournament so that's 2 wins. I'm sure QP could beat any Switzerland rep that isn’t Amadeus and that match even before his power up was 50-50 probably leaning in Amadeus favor to be fair. And thata not even talking about Tezuka or Bismarick.

Again, you are outright ignoring statement. We just know that Germany players are strong. That is it.

For example, Ohmagari is enough to crush players on the level of Yukimura with Kintarou as his partner who is currently shown to be bad in doubles as a handicap so the team who crush his pair that he is outright state to have good synergy with aka Kite would stand a shot against Tezuka too.

Just because we know Germany are strong doesn't mean that Switzerland cannot be stronger overall as a team.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2022 ---

He was wrong in a lot of things. He thought France would beat Japan and that the Swiss were going to be their biggest threat. America managed to beat Switzerland without the Echizen brothers and Japan is in the finals and beat Germany, hadn’t Alan forfeit his match they would have won 3-1. He was too sure about his data and therefore they had the carpet pulled from underneath them.

QP’s statement can be doubted of course, it was crystal clear from the beginning that all the data he had would be surpassed by players and other countries potential.

We can doubt it from growth perspective, yes. In fact, in Fuji match QP mentions possible variance from his research come from growth and how Fuji surpass that possible growth rate or something. However, it is to be noted that QP also say Switzerland team is also "extremely talented".

However, their growth is not really shown in tournament results. Which is why I say if we assume the Germany to got their upgrade in their match against Japan, I can see Germany beating Switzerland. Without that though, I would say Switzerland might edge Germany out somehow.

Volk and #1 doubles team can probably win against their opponents. However, since even Japan got Oni/Byoudonin/Tokugawa who probably stand a shot against QP, I found it extremely hard to believe that a team that is mention to be extremely talented and be #1 in overall strength doesn't have a player pool greater than Japan that can match against QP level.

Also, I like to add that there might be more to QP data being wrong. Spain being barely mention is extremely obvious that he just didn't do enough research on them. Alan surrender literally the only match on scene that he have. Kiko always win his match 6-4 regardless of opponents. For Kiko, that probably push down his "level" in research by a lot if he didn't play against top tier players all the time. Alan might simply rigged a lot of matches also pulling down his scores. Alan isn't confirmed of course. But Kiko way of winning clearly would make America as a team weaker than it is supposed to be.

 

[LetalHawk]

Again, you are outright ignoring statement. We just know that Germany players are strong. That is it.

For example, Ohmagari is enough to crush players on the level of Yukimura with Kintarou as his partner who is currently shown to be bad in doubles as a handicap so the team who crush his pair that he is outright state to have good synergy with aka Kite would stand a shot against Tezuka too.

Just because we know Germany are strong doesn't mean that Switzerland cannot be stronger overall as a team.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2022 ---

We can doubt it from growth perspective, yes. In fact, in Fuji match QP mentions possible variance from his research come from growth and how Fuji surpass that possible growth rate or something. However, it is to be noted that QP also say Switzerland team is also "extremely talented".

However, their growth is not really shown in tournament results. Which is why I say if we assume the Germany to got their upgrade in their match against Japan, I can see Germany beating Switzerland. Without that though, I would say Switzerland might edge Germany out somehow.

Volk and #1 doubles team can probably win against their opponents. However, since even Japan got Oni/Byoudonin/Tokugawa who probably stand a shot against QP, I found it extremely hard to believe that a team that is mention to be extremely talented and be #1 in overall strength doesn't have a player pool greater than Japan that can match against QP level.

For Ohmagari, in doubles yeah because he’s more experienced, but in singles, I don’t think he can beat Yuki or Tezuka since these two can probably beat him and counter his techniques (specially Tezuka who I do think he would crush Ohmagari). Even if they lost, it was close and Yuki even commented at the end that they wouldn’t have lost had he been at 100% (probably refering to his tireness from his last match vs Tezuka). Tezuka or Yuki in top form can perfectly beat Ohmagari. In doubles yeah, like Volk paired with Tezuka lost to Bertie/Schneider even though he’s the superior player here and could beat them effortlessly in a singles match.

 

[-Ken-]

For Ohmagari, in doubles yeah because he’s more experienced, but in singles, I don’t think he can beat Yuki or Tezuka since these two can probably beat him and counter his techniques (specially Tezuka who I do think he would crush Ohmagari). Even if they lost, it was close and Yuki even commented at the end that they wouldn’t have lost had he been at 100% (probably refering to his tireness from his last match vs Tezuka). Tezuka or Yuki in top form can perfectly beat Ohmagari. In doubles yeah, like Volk paired with Tezuka lost to Bertie/Schneider even though he’s the superior player here and could beat them effortlessly in a singles match.

Yeah true. But even if we are to make an all out line up, Japan singles would still be either a choice from Byoudonin/Tokugawa/Echizen/Oni/Tanegashima probably. Yukimura would have been regulated to doubles no matter what I believe.

And Ohmagari beat both Yukimura/Renji who are both big 3 from rikkai with Kintarou who outright need to get teach about doubles as handicapped. Yukimura might be able to win if he's at 100%, but it is to be note that Kintarou is again bad at doubles and is probably also holding Ohmagari back in that match. Although Yukimura is tired, he had synergy with Renji and Renji is probably more useful in that match than Kintarou is.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2022 ---

I'm sure QP could beat any Switzerland rep that isn’t Amadeus and that match even before his power up was 50-50 probably leaning in Amadeus favor to be fair. And thata not even talking about Tezuka or Bismarick.

Oh yes. I almost forgot. This statement is completely wrong. Databook 23.5 confirmed Tatsuta is "as strong as Amadeus". So either you think QP can beat any Swizerland rep including Amadeus or can beat anyone except those two. But that statement is just wrong. And by having someone on par with Amadeus being introduce in databook and didn't get a match in the manga is the best proof there is that we really didn't see what Switzerland is truly capable of.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Well Tatsuta lost against America so that was lie. Unless you think Ralph isn't strongest member in the America team?

 

[-Ken-]

It was directly state in the databook written by the author of this manga so there is no way it is a lie lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Oh god. What's next, Horio can solo Volk and Byoudonin tag team?

The only thing that prove is that America are MUCH STRONGER than you think they are and that you are totally wrong about them because America manage to beat player on the same level as Amadeus. And that America also have other players on the same level as Amadeus as well.

I will say this once again. Dodo can easily handle glowing shot which are use by the likes of Ryoga and Byoudonin and seem to be a very high tier move. Why wouldn't he be strong?

The statements in databook are simply facts. He is the same level as Amadeus. That doesn't mean that he is unbeatable. Amadeus after all also lose to Raph. What this means is it is canonically proven by OFFCIAL databook that Switzerland player pool ARE deeper than you think them to be, because you clearly ignore Tatsuta whom level are same as Amadeus. And that America and Spain both also stronger than you expect them to be because they manage to beat that Switzerland and the team that beat Switzerland. This is true unless you think you know more than Konomi himself who wrote the books. This isn't QP making statements anymore. This is outright straight the author of this series. He's not wrong. And if you think not the same as him, then you are wrong. It is that simple.

If you think you know more about PoT than Konomi, then yes, I am wasting my time.

Also, did you know that doubles doesn't necessarily reflect players ability in singles?

Pro tag team is apparently stronger than Volk/QP or Volk/Tezuka. Kintarou is extremely strong in singles but seem to be struggling in his doubles matches. Echizen also sucks in doubles. Fuji in the original series have trouble with clearly weaker tier characters whenever he plays doubles although he was Seigaku #2 for the longest time. Champion pair are stronger than Sanada/Renji pair that is confirmed to play together in the first series, and golden pair are also stronger than that. Tatsuta opponents might have better synergy and that can be it. We never know. Unless you can prove to me with official page from the manga that this isn't the case?

And I ask for proof that Switzerland isn't as strong as they are state to be. And you only show me proof that America and Spain are stronger than expected. You still don't show me any proof that Switzerland is at the lower level than they are stated to be yet. I'm still waiting for that proof.

Look at it this way. Just because someone is richer than Bill Gates doesn't mean that Bill Gates isn't rich anymore. Just because 2 teams are stronger than Switzerland doesn't mean Switzerland is weaker than they are stated to be. It simply means the two team are stronger. If anything, America are weaker than they are stated to be because Ryoga and Echizen leave the team. I need to see some actual proof that Switzerland teams are weaken, if any exist, because I seriously don't remember anything happen in story that weaken them at all.

I even put the team into random number to help you visualize this better. Take a look at it. The actual numbers probably aren't accurate but it can give you some ideas of how the analysis should be.

I'll put it here again so you can see it again.

If Germany is 9 and Switzerland is 9.1, how does America managing to beat Switzerland means that Switzerland isn't 9.1? It simply means America is maybe higher than 9.1 and that Spain who beat America is higher than that too. Do you have any proof that America and Spain does not stand any chance against Germany by any chance? Other than "I think no one can beat QP/Tezuka/Bismarck" because that's just your opinion. I need actual proof that the characters are actually weaker from the manga and not "I think" because I can just say "I think they can" and that's the same as your opinion because it's both fan opinion. Except mine is support by actual statement from the manga. My stance is true even with all evidences put together. Your stance is only true if you ignore specific part of the manga and databook you want to ignore.

Finally, if you choose to ignore specific statements from the manga, then to be fair, ALL statements Volk and pro doubles pairs must also be ignore. After all, we know Byoudonin manage to beat Volk and Niou/Duke manage to beat pro doubles pair right? So just like how America beating Switzerland debunk the statement by QP according to you, the statement about those 2 should have been ignore as well, but you didn't ignore the statements and insist on those statements for some interesting yet unknown reasons. And if you ignore those statements, suddenly Switzerland is in a MUCH better place against Germany all of a sudden although they already seem to stand a chance before because of QP statement. So yay?

Of course, I prefer not to ignore them and not ignore other statement as well because... I believe it's all true. And there is a way to read analyze it so that the statement are true. It's just that both U-17 bracket to final are filled with strong teams. This isn't like PoT National where Rikkai seem to barely meet anyone strong in the national tournament (as shown by very few of those opponents are invited to U-17 camp)

 

[ShadowHeart]

I have shown proof to you Switzerland strength isn't as QP said. They lost to Australia a team QP didn't even mention. Lost to America who lost badly to Spain another team. As for Tatusa if he's so strong why didn't he play in singles?

 

[-Ken-]

Who knows? Bismarck was state to be Germany number 2 by Tanegashima. Can you tell me why he doesn't play singles?

I already cover " Lost to America who lost badly to Spain another team " so many times. That prove absolutely fucking nothing at all. Read my posts again. No wonder why you fail to understand Switzerland strength. You can't even understand my explanation. Just because America is stronger than Switzerland doesn't mean Switzerland is weaker than Germany at all. It just means America is stronger than Switzerland, who have higher overall strength than Germany.

Australia explanation was in the manga. It's Noah. Go and reread it again. He took Switzerland by surprised.

In the other word, your evidence doesn't prove anything. It only prove America is stronger than Switzerland, but it doesn't prove that Switzerland is weaker than Germany at all.

QP have access to Germany strength. He estimate Switzerland strength and estimate it to be stronger given the data he got. He miscalculate Germany and America. That doesn't mean he miscalculate Switzerland. You need to show me actual evidence from the manga that Switzerland is weaker than he calculated. Heck, I'll also take databook. The facts that you can't provide any actual evidence is more than enough to say if you are right or wrong.

I even already provide you numbers. Is numbers too hard a concept to understand? What you are saying is basically because any sports player lost it means that another player I like is stronger than them despite them not having fight before. Why don't you challenge a former boxing champion to a fight and see if you can beat him because he lost to the current champion?

I need proof that Switzerland team doesn't match Germany. Not to mention I already have proven you to be outright wrong with OFFICIAL databook. You actually try to debate with statement from databook lmao.

If your logic is use for Germany team, then German pro tag team ain't number 1 doubles team either and some Switzerland team can beat them. The statement that they are comes from databook after all. Also, Volk also isn't strongest because it's just some statement and he literally lost. If you can ignore statement, I can too. This is even proven in the manga because Niou/Duke beat them and Byoudonin beat Volk. There is direct match result that prove the statement wrong. It's a MUCH stronger evidence than you taking America/Spain team which also might be stronger than Germany and say Switzerland somehow are weak because it lose to America...?

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Who knows? Bismarck was state to be Germany number 2 by Tanegashima. Can you tell me why he doesn't play singles?

I already cover " Lost to America who lost badly to Spain another team " so many times. That prove absolutely fucking nothing at all. Read my posts again. No wonder why you fail to understand Switzerland strength. You can't even understand my explanation. Just because America is stronger than Switzerland doesn't mean Switzerland is weaker than Germany at all. It just means America is stronger than Switzerland, who have higher overall strength than Germany.

Australia explanation was in the manga. It's Noah. Go and reread it again. He took Switzerland by surprised.

In the other word, your evidence doesn't prove anything. It only prove America is stronger than Switzerland, but it doesn't prove that Switzerland is weaker than Germany at all.

QP have access to Germany strength. He estimate Switzerland strength and estimate it to be stronger given the data he got. He miscalculate Germany and America. That doesn't mean he miscalculate Switzerland. You need to show me actual evidence from the manga that Switzerland is weaker than he calculated. Heck, I'll also take databook. The facts that you can't provide any actual evidence is more than enough to say if you are right or wrong.

I even already provide you numbers. Is numbers too hard a concept to understand? What you are saying is basically because any sports player lost it means that another player I like is stronger than them despite them not having fight before. Why don't you challenge a former boxing champion to a fight and see if you can beat him because he lost to the current champion?

I need proof that Switzerland team doesn't match Germany. Not to mention I already have proven you to be outright wrong with OFFICIAL databook. You actually try to debate with statement from databook lmao.

If your logic is use for Germany team, then German pro tag team ain't number 1 doubles team either and some Switzerland team can beat them. The statement that they are comes from databook after all. Also, Volk also isn't strongest because it's just some statement and he literally lost. If you can ignore statement, I can too. This is even proven in the manga because Niou/Duke beat them and Byoudonin beat Volk. There is direct match result that prove the statement wrong. It's a MUCH stronger evidence than you taking America/Spain team which also might be stronger than Germany and say Switzerland somehow are weak because it lose to America...?

I will share my take on this.

Only the "Switzerland is the #1 in Overall Strength" part.

In my opinion. QP is considering the whole team players by each country.

What I meant is Maybe Germany have the Stronger Best 7 Players than Swiss. But Switzerland have better bench/reserve players.

Remember, Amadeus collected all Talented Players because he is even ashamed of #2 ranking.

In USA VS Switzerland Match. USA outsmarted their lineup. It is like How Fudomine Outsmarted Hyotei.

Also, a little luck. (Though I won't take away anyway from team USA. I know they are strong too)

But here is what happened in that Match.

USA D2 is literally MSer Sacrificial Lambs. And it is faced against Randy/Albert. So Swiss won that match.

But after that, it is in USA Favor.

Dodo/MS beats Swiss D1 pair convincingly.

Kiko Beat Henri.

Alan Beat Peter.

Note:, Alan is a terrible matchup for Peter. Peter was winning the rally/match. But Alan has the specialty to abuse previous Injuries which Peter have. Anyway, Alan Surrendered because he want Ralph VS Amadeus to happen.

Then Ralph Beat Amadeus in a very close match.

So yeah,maybe matchup I guess.

Still, USA should be credited with the Win.

@-Ken-

Switzerland, I believe they have the talent.

But I will say this. (just personally). They lack teamwork and strategy of lineup making.

Like you said Even Noah and Australia Outsmarted them. USA kinda Outsmarted their lineup too.

Anyway, Since Switzerland lost to USA who is destroyed by Spain. Spain is obviously the Strongest now. Yeah, I think even more than Germany.

 

[-Ken-]

I think Ryoga is even stronger than Volk. Nothing to prove it, but eh. Gut feelings.

I guess Ryoga being better than Ralp who is even with Amadeus kinda show it in a way.

And Switzerland and Germany thing is not confirm. Some of us just really like Germany. But I don't think the gap between the two countries are like say Rikkai vs Hyoutei or other school. I think they are pretty close.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I think Ryoga is even stronger than Volk. Nothing to prove it, but eh. Gut feelings.

I guess Ryoga being better than Ralp who is even with Amadeus kinda show it in a way.

And Switzerland and Germany thing is not confirm. Some of us just really like Germany. But I don't think the gap between the two countries are like say Rikkai vs Hyoutei or other school. I think they are pretty close.

Only Way to settle this if there will be a USA VS Germany Battle for 3rd place right?

It will kinda help.haha.

Though, we don't know who the hell USA Fielded against Spain. Lmao. (Aside from Ralph)

I have doubts they used Dodo, Kiko,and Alan in D2 And S3 that game. Since they already used them in Quarterfinals against Swiss.

Nonetheless, USA VS Spain will be nice to see. Even if is just a fast scan match.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2022 ---

Spain Lineup so Far:

Hsers: Medanore, Ryoga, Silva, Julio, Mares, Rodrigo

MSers: Romeo

Possible Lineup (at least 3 Msers)

S3: Romeo (MS)
D2: MS/MS
S2: Silva
D1: Julio/Mares
S1: Medanore (HS)
Reserve: Ryoga (HS)
Bench(not play) : Rodrigo

EXPLANATION

This is the only way Ryoga and Ryoma will be the Final Match. And in my humble Opinion, Tokugawa and Ryoma's match must be after another. It will be odd to see there is a Doubles match in between.

S3 is very obvious. It will be Romeo.

S2 is tricky. It can be any of Silva, Mares, or Julio. I think Silva is the third strongest Spain Player despite Julio being the Vice Captain. And Based on Julio's Personality, he seems like a doubles player.

S1 is obvious as well. Medanore.

D2 and D1. It is hard to tell. But I am certain there will be new introduced Spain Msers.

I thought if the (at least 3 MS rule) doesn't apply anymore. But I remember Tanegashima implied that the rule still exists when he pitched to team up with Shiraishi.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Curious as to what Romeo abilities are apart from his hypnosis.