One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

How do human top tiers like Mihawk or Shanks make up for their low durability ?

They can probably be taken out by a few hits from other Yonko but the other Yonko will take several hits to be put down.

I used to think FS might have something to do with it but Kaido has FS too. Are human top tiers just better at using FS or do they have much higher AP so they can take out non-human Yonko in a few hits too ?

How does say Shanks fight Kaido when one TB might be enough to KO him ? Does he use FS to dodge all of his attacks ? Maybe his FS-cancelling might have something to do with it ? Do other human top tiers like Mihawk, Roger and WB have something similar ? Do they use their blades to block attacks rather than taking them on their body ? What about Garp ? Can they maybe use full-body Haki to give them Kaido/BM level durability ?

It's a pretty huge stretch that shanks or mihawk have low durability. I suppose there's a case to be made that their durability would be lower than big mom's or kaido's (which is different from having low durability) but odds are both of them are extremely good at both armor haki AND conqueror haki cladding. Mihawk is not a confirmed conqueror haki user but it sounds like a pretty huge stretch that someone can stand in or rival a yonko without it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It's a pretty huge stretch that shanks or mihawk have low durability. I suppose there's a case to be made that their durability would be lower than big mom's or kaido's (which is different from having low durability) but odds are both of them are extremely good at both armor haki AND conqueror haki cladding. Mihawk is not a confirmed conqueror haki user but it sounds like a pretty huge stretch that someone can stand in or rival a yonko without it.

Law and Kid lol

 

[kkck]

Law and Kid lol

Also that... both of them ate a significant handful of big mom's full fury and they are not even cladding users. While it's probably the case that kaido's and big mom's durability is high for people in their tier... it's also clear that the reason they seemed invulnerable to begin with is that there simply aren't that many people in their tier to begin with. Imagine ennies lobby lucci fighting current luffy.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think it's this one zetsu was talking about.

Jinbei is mad impressive ngl

Ah when he blocked Akainu from taking a second shot at Ace. Yeah that definitely was impressive that he blocked it bare handed. Guessing he used haki otherwise he should have melted.

Actually he passed out after Crocodile threw him into the air with Sables.

Was there a lot of time between him taking the hit and sables? I thought it all happened relatively quickly e.g. Jinbei didn't really last long but I could be mistaken. Don't remember if he spent some time running before passing out

 

[McNuss]

Was there a lot of time between him taking the hit and sables? I thought it all happened relatively quickly e.g. Jinbei didn't really last long but I could be mistaken. Don't remember if he spent some time running before passing out

No it is immediately afterwards. Afaik he says something to Buggy who caught him, then passes out.

 

[Fox666]

Ah when he blocked Akainu from taking a second shot at Ace. Yeah that definitely was impressive that he blocked it bare handed. Guessing he used haki otherwise he should have melted.

It's somewhat hard to tell on black and white, but Jinbe is using water

 

[albertwv]

Can current Jimbei beat Doffy? if Jimbei could defeat Doffy, Cracker, or Jack, then he can be YC2 but I highly doubt YC1.
I place Doffy as the beginning of YC3 level. If anybody can beat him then he can be upper YC3 or YC2.
Btw, the Doffy vs Jozu, is an outlier. I believe Jozu > Doffy. Jozu was caught off guard by Doffy's strings but that does not necessarily mean that Doffy could overpower him. Jozu was confident enough to battle Aokiji even though he lost, he was able to catch Aokiji off guard and quickly damage him enough to bleed. Doffy backed down from Aokiji. Although I place Jozu as a high YC2.

Beginning Post TS Straw Hats: G2 Luffy and Zolo were high VA level with Sanji low VA level. G4 Luffy was YC3. Jimbei was YC4/YE. Jimbei vs G2 Luffy, Jimbei would have won in Fishman Island but if Luffy had used G4, he would have clobbered Jimbei.

After Dressrosa: Luffy was high YC3 who semi struggled with Cracker another high YC3. Zolo was still high VA, I don't think he improved from his fight with Pika since he wasn't pushed. Sanji was low VA.

After WCI/Beginning Wano: Luffy was low YC1, Zolo was high VA still, Sanji high VA. Zolo was still stagnant since he had not been pushed, while Sanji grew from his fights with his brothers and father and other BM Yonko Executives.

After Udon/Beginning Rooftop: pre ACoC Luffy high YC1, pre ACoC Zolo was YC2, pre Germa power up Sanji was YC3.

After Onigashima: G5 Luffy: low Yonko level, Zolo high YC1, Sanji high YC2. Jimbei low YC3.

I am a firm believer that G5 Luffy cannot 1v1 Kaido just yet. Also, Zolo and Sanji may be at their highest of their respective tier but not above it just yet. I would not say that Sanji could defeat Katakuri or Zolo defeat an Admiral.

Use of reference: VA = Vice admiral, YE = Yonko Executive.
Ex: Low VA (Maynard, maybe Coby, maybe Smoker). High VA (Vergo, Buster Call VAs)
YE (Flying 6, Daifuku, Oven, Perospero, various WBP Commanders 6-16 like Izo)
VA vs YE can be around the same level.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Blackbeard doesn’t get enough flack for how a finished WB easily defeated him in a panel , we nitpick other top tiers but he went sad out here

 

[I Am Atomic]

Blackbeard doesn’t get enough flack for how a finished WB easily defeated him in a panel , we nitpick other top tiers but he went sad out here

But this also supports that characters in their 40s can still grow stronger. 40s is not the peak for every character.

 

[LadyVados]

Since the latest chapter has proved that Mihawk is indeed Yonko level, how on earth is Zoro going to get strong enough to beat him ?

I’m a fan of Zoro but he currently stands no chance against a Yonko in a 1v1. We saw that Luffy had to literally transform into a god to barely beat one.

Some people have brought up black blades but that would just increase Zoro’s attack power and not do anything for his other stats. Future sight ? That is something even Kaido and pre-G5 Luffy had and doesn’t seem like enough to make Zoro a threat to Yonko-tier characters. Even both of them together don’t seem like they’d be enough of a power-up.

I think it’ll probably require something pretty drastic. Either Shanks-level CoC or Whitebeard-level endurance or maybe some Asura god-mode shenanigans.

What power-ups do you think would be needed for Zoro to beat Yonko-level opponents ?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 31, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 31, 2022 ---

Blackbeard doesn’t get enough flack for how a finished WB easily defeated him in a panel , we nitpick other top tiers but he went sad out here

Basically got one-shotted by a Naginata slash from a dying WB but some people seriously think this dude can beat Mihawk…

 

[grey matter]

Since the latest chapter has proved that Mihawk is indeed Yonko level, how on earth is Zoro going to get strong enough to beat him ?

I’m a fan of Zoro but he currently stands no chance against a Yonko in a 1v1. We saw that Luffy had to literally transform into a god to barely beat one.

Roger, Rayleigh, Shanks and Mihawk are all "regular looking" humans are on or above Yonko level. They are not some abnormal giant like WB or mutant like BM. None of them have DF either.

Zoro gets to Yonko tier like how the above character did. Through pure haki and stats buff

I think mastering Asura to make it a mode he can use for considerable duration (like gears for Luffy) instead of it just being a finisher, will be one of the endgame powerups for for Zoro

Can current Jimbei beat Doffy? if Jimbei could defeat Doffy, Cracker, or Jack, then he can be YC2 but I highly doubt YC1.
I place Doffy as the beginning of YC3 level. If anybody can beat him then he can be upper YC3 or YC2.
Btw, the Doffy vs Jozu, is an outlier. I believe Jozu > Doffy. Jozu was caught off guard by Doffy's strings but that does not necessarily mean that Doffy could overpower him. Jozu was confident enough to battle Aokiji even though he lost, he was able to catch Aokiji off guard and quickly damage him enough to bleed. Doffy backed down from Aokiji. Although I place Jozu as a high YC2.

Beginning Post TS Straw Hats: G2 Luffy and Zolo were high VA level with Sanji low VA level. G4 Luffy was YC3. Jimbei was YC4/YE. Jimbei vs G2 Luffy, Jimbei would have won in Fishman Island but if Luffy had used G4, he would have clobbered Jimbei.

After Dressrosa: Luffy was high YC3 who semi struggled with Cracker another high YC3. Zolo was still high VA, I don't think he improved from his fight with Pika since he wasn't pushed. Sanji was low VA.

After WCI/Beginning Wano: Luffy was low YC1, Zolo was high VA still, Sanji high VA. Zolo was still stagnant since he had not been pushed, while Sanji grew from his fights with his brothers and father and other BM Yonko Executives.

After Udon/Beginning Rooftop: pre ACoC Luffy high YC1, pre ACoC Zolo was YC2, pre Germa power up Sanji was YC3.

After Onigashima: G5 Luffy: low Yonko level, Zolo high YC1, Sanji high YC2. Jimbei low YC3.

I am a firm believer that G5 Luffy cannot 1v1 Kaido just yet. Also, Zolo and Sanji may be at their highest of their respective tier but not above it just yet. I would not say that Sanji could defeat Katakuri or Zolo defeat an Admiral.

Use of reference: VA = Vice admiral, YE = Yonko Executive.
Ex: Low VA (Maynard, maybe Coby, maybe Smoker). High VA (Vergo, Buster Call VAs)
YE (Flying 6, Daifuku, Oven, Perospero, various WBP Commanders 6-16 like Izo)
VA vs YE can be around the same level.

Overall tend to agree there.

But there is no "VA" level. There are dudes who are fodder to even Bartalomeo. And then there are admiral candidates like the two VA we saw with Garp, and possibly Tsuru. Vice admirals range from (maybe even below) pretimeskip Luffy tier, to YC1+ tier.

I think just replacing wherever you put VA, with Yonko-executive/Tobiroppo, would have made it more sense

**********

My rankings:

End of Dressrossa:
Luffy - YC3
Zoro - high Tobiroppo
Sanji - low Tobiroppo

End of WCI:
Luffy -borderline YC1
Zoro - high Tobiroppo
Sanji - high Tobiroppo

Wano.
a) Post Udon/beginning of raid:
Luffy - YC1 (YC1+ after 1010)
Zoro - borderline YC1
Jinbe - YC3+ (borderline YC1 if in water)
Sanji - borderline YC3

b) end of Wano
Luffy - Yonko level
Zoro - YC1+
Sanji - borderline YC1
Jinbe - YC3+ (borderline YC1 if in water)

 

[LadyVados]

My rankings:

End of Dressrossa:
Luffy - YC3
Zoro - high Tobiroppo
Sanji - low Tobiroppo

End of WCI:
Luffy -borderline YC1
Zoro - high Tobiroppo
Sanji - high Tobiroppo

Wano.
a) Post Udon/beginning of raid:
Luffy - YC1 (YC1+ after 1010)
Zoro - borderline YC1
Jinbe - YC3+ (borderline YC1 if in water)
Sanji - borderline YC3

b) end of Wano
Luffy - Yonko level
Zoro - YC1+
Sanji - borderline YC1
Jinbe - YC3+ (borderline YC1 if in water)

IMO Zoro was already at least YC4 in FI. An argument can even be made he didn’t grow any stronger until getting Enma and was always YC2 ever since FI. Zoro was clearly much stronger than non-G4 Luffy in the early NW arcs, stomping Steroids Hyouzou who fought on par with G2 Luffy in Base, doing better against Fujitora than either Luffy or Law, killing the Punk Hazard Dragon, beating Monet, blowing Don Chinjao’s mind with his strength and saving the dressrosa fighters (some of whom were stronger than Base Luffy), being stronger than Kinemon who the Wano arc proved is probably YC level, doing much more damage with a casual air slash to Pica than Luffy did with his ultimate G3 technique…

WCI Luffy was YC2+ for me while Rooftop Luffy was borderline YC1. Rooftop Zoro was solid YC1. Current Zoro is indeed YC1+, if not higher with Asura.

Current Sanji is YC2 imo.

Jinbe is probably YC1+ in Water. Outside of it, hard to say, maybe YC3 ? Weaker than Sanji outside water but stronger in it makes sense. Zoro beats him even underwater IMO.

 

[grey matter]

IMO Zoro was already at least YC4 in FI. An argument can even be made he didn’t grow any stronger until getting Enma and was always YC2 ever since FI. Zoro was clearly much stronger than non-G4 Luffy in the early NW arcs, stomping Steroids Hyouzou who fought on par with G2 Luffy in Base, doing better against Fujitora than either Luffy or Law, killing the Punk Hazard Dragon, beating Monet, blowing Don Chinjao’s mind with his strength and saving the dressrosa fighters (some of whom were stronger than Base Luffy), being stronger than Kinemon who the Wano arc proved is probably YC level, doing much more damage with a casual air slash to Pica than Luffy did with his ultimate G3 technique…

YC4 tier and high end Tobiroppo are all the same to me.

Nah, Zoro wasn't YC2 in FI for sure. Luffy was below YC2 till WCI, and Luffy forever > Zoro.
Best that can be argued is that he was low end YC3 tier in FI

Don Chinjao was amazed by Zoro's attack power. this doesn't tell us much about the overall picture.
This isn't surprising to me at all. Zoro always hits much harder relative to his tier. Even currently, though I would generally put Zoro at YC1+ tier, I'd put his attack power at low end Yonko tier.
In fact, IMO Zoro was above Luffy in pure attack power until the end of this arc.

WCI Luffy was YC2+ for me while Rooftop Luffy was borderline YC1. Rooftop Zoro was solid YC1. Current Zoro is indeed YC1+, if not higher with Asura.
even underwater IMO.

YC2+, borderline YC1. Same thing.

Rooftop Luffy is solid YC1 tier. He would 100% win against Katakuri, and though to beat King 1010 Luffy would be needed due to matchup.

Rooftop Zoro was borderline YC1 tier, not solidly there. If that was the case, King wouldn't have made a joke out of Zoro until he got advanced conqueror's haki.

Current Sanji is YC2 imo.

Current Sanji would mid diff Queen. He is borderline YC1 tier

Jinbe is probably YC1+ in Water. Outside of it, hard to say, maybe YC3 ? Weaker than Sanji outside water but stronger in it makes sense. Zoro beats him even underwater IMO.

Jinbe in water is beating neither King nor Katakuri, based on all that we have seen so far.

Jinbe has nothing on King's defense mode, which is more than capable of tagging Jinbe, considering he was on/above current Zoro in CQC in defence mode.
Jinbe can push Katakuri to a high diff, since AOE attacks kinda counter future sight. But he still loses

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 31, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 31, 2022 ---

Also seeing the mihawk and shanks debate so funny I’m sorry I’m leaning shanks but mihawk explanation is so much simpler

Yeah. Mihawk is stronger by narrative, but Shanks has better hype.

The only way for Oda to have Shanks stronger and Mihawk's title (and Zoro's EOS dream) not be fraudulent, is for Shanks to have some ability which clearly wouldn't be a part of swordsmanship. Say, Shanks pulls out a haki beam from his hand or something lol, and that turns out to be his strongest attack.
Everything haki related so far, is definitely a part of swordsmanship. Be it advanced conqueror's, advanced armament, future sight etc,

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Why is Jinbei in water even a debate? Unless his opponent is a non DF user who is Yonko level fighter (e.g. Rayleigh, Roger) or they are Aokiji, they would likely lose. Imagine Jinbei in water vs BM just floating above on a cloud. All it would take is a single attack that get BM in the water and the fight is over. Who would be a challenge in a water fight against Jinbei that it even warrants debate?

I think for Jinbei the fighting scenarios that should be debatable are:
- Jinbei on land without access to water (with the air being an excpetion)
- Jinbei on land with access to a body of water (for his attacks and a place for him to quickly retreat to)

Any actual water based fight e.g. something like Ed War is hands down a win for Jinbei. At this point, anyone who attacks the SHs in open waters is doomed.

 

[grey matter]

Why is Jinbei in water even a debate? Unless his opponent is a non DF user who is Yonko level fighter (e.g. Rayleigh, Roger) or they are Aokiji, they would likely lose. Imagine Jinbei in water vs BM just floating above on a cloud. All it would take is a single attack that get BM in the water and the fight is over. Who would be a challenge in a water fight against Jinbei that it even warrants debate?

I think for Jinbei the fighting scenarios that should be debatable are:
- Jinbei on land without access to water (with the air being an excpetion)
- Jinbei on land with access to a body of water (for his attacks and a place for him to quickly retreat to)

Any actual water based fight e.g. something like Ed War is hands down a win for Jinbei. At this point, anyone who attacks the SHs in open waters is doomed.

Bold part is what people usually mean when they say "Jinbe in water"
Mixed environment.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Bold part is what people usually mean when they say "Jinbe in water"
Mixed environment.

That I think makes much more sense. However, seeing comments like the below makes me think there are people who genuinely think Jinbei would lose underwater to YC level fighters.

Jinbe is probably YC1+ in Water. Outside of it, hard to say, maybe YC3 ? Weaker than Sanji outside water but stronger in it makes sense. Zoro beats him even underwater IMO.

 

[kkck]

Why is Jinbei in water even a debate? Unless his opponent is a non DF user who is Yonko level fighter (e.g. Rayleigh, Roger) or they are Aokiji, they would likely lose. Imagine Jinbei in water vs BM just floating above on a cloud. All it would take is a single attack that get BM in the water and the fight is over. Who would be a challenge in a water fight against Jinbei that it even warrants debate?

I think for Jinbei the fighting scenarios that should be debatable are:
- Jinbei on land without access to water (with the air being an excpetion)
- Jinbei on land with access to a body of water (for his attacks and a place for him to quickly retreat to)

Any actual water based fight e.g. something like Ed War is hands down a win for Jinbei. At this point, anyone who attacks the SHs in open waters is doomed.

I think this is a bit optimistic for jinbe. IMO jinbe on land is probably weaker than doflamingo. I don't see jinbe being higher in the pecking order than that tbh. There are multiple scenarios to consider and they are all fairly different.

1.- Naval battle. Obviously jinbe is a huge asset but if he was this grossly OP in this scenario then the big mom pirates would already rule the sea. Jinbe straight up served big mom for nearly 2 years. Jinbe while underwater is by no means immune to attacks from above. It's not that insane an stretch that marines and yonko crews could actually depend their ships from jinbe. Just a few possibilities... oven can probably just boil jinbe. The WB pirates had their own fishman commander. BB can probably just yoink jinbe from the ocean with his fruit.

2.- Underwater jinbe vs big mom.... No way it takes a single attack to down big mom (barring idiocy of course). Big mom can rain both fire and fighting on jinbe. There's no scenario where a serious big mom doesn't turn underwater jinbe into a fishstick. Big mom's lightning is so powerful it can literally make what seems like a bottomless pit into the earth. Jinbe in fairness has decent odds but... an edge over big mom? big reach.

3.- For the most part, most strong fighters in the series are devil fruit users so underwater battles are pretty damn difficult to even set up. Even luffy with a bubble was hampered by the water. So to begin with only folk without devil fruits would even be able to fight at all. Pretty much every fighter in big mom's, kaido's and BB's crew is out. Some folk in WB's crew could potentially engage at all. Then of course you have folk like roger, shanks, mihawk... Zoro, sanji... I am curious on whether sanji could hold his own against jinbe underwater. Durng the raid sanji's speed was so insane he was invisible to queen. That's a monster of a feat. And of course sanji has blue walk, a technique to move at high speed underwater. Zoro probably won't be that fast of course but the question in this case would be how effective his yonko level attacks are and whether jinbe can do anythign about them. Shanks and mihawk of course would be stronger and thus more dangerous.

 

[albertwv]

VA and YE and Flying 6 levels could be the same I guess. I like to point out that a Low VA level would be somebody like Maynard who was easily defeated by Barto. Mid VA would be Smoker who recently got promoted but its not the same level as a senior VA like Vergo or Momonga or Doberman etc. Basically the Buster Call VA's are the high/senior VAs who could give maybe Oven, Daifuku, Sasaki, WW, and Ulti a hard fight.
It's sad that we did not see the VAs fight against any WBP division commanders, wasted opportunity.
I don't bother rating Garp as VA for obvious reasons, also Tsuru since we have no idea how strong she really is. I would at least rank Tsuru as a high VA because she is a really senior VA and was able to scare Doffy in his younger years.
The admiral candidates have no place in ranking since we literally have not seen anything from them in the manga.

I would NOT place Zolo as a YC at the beginning of the timeskip at all. We literally have no feats to claim that is true. I doubt Zolo would be able to defeat Doffy until he got to Wano maybe. I would say once he received Enma he would be able to defeat Doffy.

Btw enough of Jimbei,
where would you rank the VAs, YEs/Flying 6/Supernova Captains (pre Onigashima)? We often overlook them and discuss only Luffy Zolo Mihawk Shanks etc. Let's switch it up.

 

[Fox666]

VA and YE and Flying 6 levels could be the same I guess. I like to point out that a Low VA level would be somebody like Maynard who was easily defeated by Barto. Mid VA would be Smoker who recently got promoted but its not the same level as a senior VA like Vergo or Momonga or Doberman etc. Basically the Buster Call VA's are the high/senior VAs who could give maybe Oven, Daifuku, Sasaki, WW, and Ulti a hard fight.
It's sad that we did not see the VAs fight against any WBP division commanders, wasted opportunity.
I don't bother rating Garp as VA for obvious reasons, also Tsuru since we have no idea how strong she really is. I would at least rank Tsuru as a high VA because she is a really senior VA and was able to scare Doffy in his younger years.
The admiral candidates have no place in ranking since we literally have not seen anything from them in the manga.

I would NOT place Zolo as a YC at the beginning of the timeskip at all. We literally have no feats to claim that is true. I doubt Zolo would be able to defeat Doffy until he got to Wano maybe. I would say once he received Enma he would be able to defeat Doffy.

Btw enough of Jimbei,
where would you rank the VAs, YEs/Flying 6/Supernova Captains (pre Onigashima)? We often overlook them and discuss only Luffy Zolo Mihawk Shanks etc. Let's switch it up.

There's a wide range among these ranks.

There's an abyss between the minimum requirement to become a Vice-Admiral or an Admiral... most Vice-Admirals could be defeated by the Supernovas on Sabaody. Some like Tsuru or Momousagi are stronger, but their exact strength is unknown.

Some of the Tobiroppo wanted to challenge the All-Stars. I think Who's Who would come close to the All-Stars. The likes of Sasaki or Black Maria I think are around the strength of Diamante, Trebol, etc.

Not all Yonkos have executives. Whitebeard had 16 commanders. They seem to range from the level of All-Stars to Tobiroppo...

 

[LaGOAT]

Lol what is tobiroppo tier?