One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[LaGOAT]

Pre TS Rob lucci will lose to a pacifista too it isn’t rocket science. page 1>pre TS strawhats

 

[albertwv]

Pre TS Rob lucci will lose to pacifista too it isn’t rocket science. page 1>pre TS strawhats

Thank you. I can't believe we have to argue something like this at this time. @McNuss, you see how wrong you are.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

What if Zoro had never gotten Enma but Sound-wave swordsmanship was technique unique to Wano and Zoro had learnt that and managed to cut/scar Kaido and wound him because of that ?

Would it have been more or less impressive than what actually happened ?

It would have been more impressive. To me this is akin to comparison between - Luffy learning aCoA in Wano or Zoro picking up Foxfire style from Kinemon vs Nami getting Zeus or Zoro getting Enma.

In the case of the former they are learning to use specific techniques through training vs in the latter they are getting a power up due to them gettin special objects. For example had Zoro learned to use aCoC through some training instead of Enma forcing it out of him, I would have found it more impressive.

At the end of the day I'm happy Zoro got stronger and has a new cool sword but short cuts through special items is the cheapest form of power up in manga. I feel the same way about Sanji and his suit giving him powers. Would have preferred both Zoro and Sanji got to the same outcome just using haki without any special items like a sword or suit being the mechanism.

 

[Fox666]

I think everyone learning new techniques from Samurai would be a bit too repetitive, no?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think everyone learning new techniques from Samurai would be a bit too repetitive, no?

For me that depends on what they're learning. For example I think it would have been great if all the CoA haki users in the group learned about ryuo since at the end of the day haki is haki no matter who the teacher or what they call it. I wouldn't expect all of them to master it or get to the most advanced technique (infusion) except for Luffy but if they at least picked up the basics, it would be believable that they get better with it in future arcs instead of what is more likely to happen now which is Sanji/Zoro suddenly using it without much explantation.

Similarly would have been better for Zoro to not have gotten a magic blade but instead a very good sword + training on various sword styles/techniques that would help him evolve his own sword play. Had Oda used this as a catalyst for Zoro to consciously awaken aCoC it would have felt more complete and deserved than the magic sword route.

I know people say this type of stuff couldn't be done due to limits on arc size but each of these could be encapsulated in like a 3rd of a chapters worth of content. Oda could have simply cut back on the filler/repetitive panels to fit this type of training in.

 

[albertwv]

It would have been more impressive. To me this is akin to comparison between - Luffy learning aCoA in Wano or Zoro picking up Foxfire style from Kinemon vs Nami getting Zeus or Zoro getting Enma.

In the case of the former they are learning to use specific techniques through training vs in the latter they are getting a power up due to them gettin special objects. For example had Zoro learned to use aCoC through some training instead of Enma forcing it out of him, I would have found it more impressive.

At the end of the day I'm happy Zoro got stronger and has a new cool sword but short cuts through special items is the cheapest form of power up in manga. I feel the same way about Sanji and his suit giving him powers. Would have preferred both Zoro and Sanji got to the same outcome just using haki without any special items like a sword or suit being the mechanism.

In a way it is cheap form of power up for Zolo, but at that time it is understandable. He got a power up whenever he received new or renowned swords. Not outright power up like the Gears or Raid Suit but we noticed Zolo would get stronger. When he received Shusui, it was a subtle power up and then again with Enma. Though with Enma it wasnt as subtle. But hey he is a swordsman so it makes sense if he gets a strong renowned sword for him to get a power up.
But for Sanji, and im not hating on Sanji at all actually I prefer him without Germa genes and RS, when he got the RS and Germa power up it was a cheap form of power up that seem it wasn't natural to Sanji.
I like Sanji because he was strong fighter with no weapons or DF, but now that he got the Germa power up even he hates it.
It would have been better if Sanji had received say Future Sight, since he was stated to specialize in CoO. Even ACoA would have been a good power up for him and a way for him to keep up with luffy and Zolo.

I know it's implied and somewhat subtly stated that Sanji does have CoA, but for whatever reason it was never shown. Maybe it was due to him wearing Black pants and all he does is kick so maybe it was hard for Oda to draw the Coating of CoA on his black legs. But I was one of those believers that thought Sanji didnt't have CoA due to never been outright drawn.

 

[Fox666]

For me that depends on what they're learning. For example I think it would have been great if all the CoA haki users in the group learned about ryuo since at the end of the day haki is haki no matter who the teacher or what they call it. I wouldn't expect all of them to master it or get to the most advanced technique (infusion) except for Luffy but if they at least picked up the basics, it would be believable that they get better with it in future arcs instead of what is more likely to happen now which is Sanji/Zoro suddenly using it without much explantation.

Similarly would have been better for Zoro to not have gotten a magic blade but instead a very good sword + training on various sword styles/techniques that would help him evolve his own sword play. Had Oda used this as a catalyst for Zoro to consciously awaken aCoC it would have felt more complete and deserved than the magic sword route.

I know people say this type of stuff couldn't be done due to limits on arc size but each of these could be encapsulated in like a 3rd of a chapters worth of content. Oda could have simply cut back on the filler/repetitive panels to fit this type of training in.

You think proper character development is more important than Franky running with Zoro unconscious in 20 panels?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

In a way it is cheap form of power up for Zolo, but at that time it is understandable. He got a power up whenever he received new or renowned swords. Not outright power up like the Gears or Raid Suit but we noticed Zolo would get stronger. When he received Shusui, it was a subtle power up and then again with Enma. Though with Enma it wasnt as subtle. But hey he is a swordsman so it makes sense if he gets a strong renowned sword for him to get a power up.
But for Sanji, and im not hating on Sanji at all actually I prefer him without Germa genes and RS, when he got the RS and Germa power up it was a cheap form of power up that seem it wasn't natural to Sanji.
I like Sanji because he was strong fighter with no weapons or DF, but now that he got the Germa power up even he hates it.
It would have been better if Sanji had received say Future Sight, since he was stated to specialize in CoO. Even ACoA would have been a good power up for him and a way for him to keep up with luffy and Zolo.

I know it's implied and somewhat subtly stated that Sanji does have CoA, but for whatever reason it was never shown. Maybe it was due to him wearing Black pants and all he does is kick so maybe it was hard for Oda to draw the Coating of CoA on his black legs. But I was one of those believers that thought Sanji didnt't have CoA due to never been outright drawn.

I agree, Zoro's past upgrades with swords were definitely more subtle which is what made them fit. A better sword should improve the outcome of the techniques he already had or allow him to use a new technique because the sword can handle the force of the attack itself. If Enma offered that form or improvement I would have been happier. I just dislike that Enma is literally magical and drains haki. By that standard Enma can just be used as a haki training tool by anyone even if they aren't swordsmen.

Regarding Sanji I also thought the new power up ruined some of the progress his character had made in the WCI arc. To me that arc provided Sanji growth as a human. He was able to be from a family of emotionless genetic monsters (created for the sake of power) and show them that he can be human, have feelings, and still be powerful. Sanji literally stood as the living antithesis to Judge's way of life. And at the same time Vinsmoke name became public and Sanji had to accept his family as they are and acknowledge he shares Germa blood.

I think Oda wanted to make Sanji accept all of himself including being a mutant. This could over time end up being a better executed message depending on how Oda handles it but I have my concerns he won't be able to.

You think proper character development is more important than Franky running with Zoro unconscious in 20 panels?

Unfortunately I'm a vampire and seeing so many crosses hurts my eyes

 

[albertwv]

You think proper character development is more important than Franky running with Zoro unconscious in 20 panels?

Oda did the straw hats (outside of M3) wrong in Wano and Onigashima. He had plenty of opportunities to show of Nami, Chopper, Usopp, Brook, and Robin's actual progress but failed miserably time after time.
Nami had great scene when she defended Luffy's dream from Ulti, but ultimately failed to solo Ulti and had to require Zeus who had left her.
Usopp had no real opponent except P1 but he didn't defeat him. I think P1 would have been a great development for Usopp. We have seen Usopp defeat characters stronger than him through some orthodox means. I was hoping Usopp would have defeated P1 himself. It was stupid for BM to one punch him.
Robin, we literally saw almost nothing from her until BM fight and she pulls this demon out of nowhere.
Brook literally did nothing but run. He took down a number and Smile fodder.
Franky had a great fight versus Sasaki, but after the fight he did practically nothing useful except catch Zolo.

ODa wasted Straw Hat character development while wasting panels and chapters on recycling or showing useless characters. The Yakuza were useless and should had not been a thing, waste of panels. Hyogoro should have died, Chopper saving him on time was not a point for Chopper but it was an asspull. The war would have had more seriousness if Hyogo had died.
The Numbers were useless and just an excuse to show off the strength of certain characters.

 

[grey matter]

Oda did the straw hats (outside of M3) wrong in Wano and Onigashima. He had plenty of opportunities to show of Nami, Chopper, Usopp, Brook, and Robin's actual progress but failed miserably time after time.
Nami had great scene when she defended Luffy's dream from Ulti, but ultimately failed to solo Ulti and had to require Zeus who had left her.
Usopp had no real opponent except P1 but he didn't defeat him. I think P1 would have been a great development for Usopp. We have seen Usopp defeat characters stronger than him through some orthodox means. I was hoping Usopp would have defeated P1 himself. It was stupid for BM to one punch him.
Robin, we literally saw almost nothing from her until BM fight and she pulls this demon out of nowhere.
Brook literally did nothing but run. He took down a number and Smile fodder.
Franky had a great fight versus Sasaki, but after the fight he did practically nothing useful except catch Zolo.

ODa wasted Straw Hat character development while wasting panels and chapters on recycling or showing useless characters. The Yakuza were useless and should had not been a thing, waste of panels. Hyogoro should have died, Chopper saving him on time was not a point for Chopper but it was an asspull. The war would have had more seriousness if Hyogo had died.
The Numbers were useless and just an excuse to show off the strength of certain characters.

This is all fine.
The ones apart from monster trio and Jinbe (and MAYBE Franky) honestly has no business even dealing with Tobiroppo, let alone defeat them.

It would be BS for Nami to suddenly solo Ulti, someone who can somewhat hold her own against Luffy.
Same for Page One, who was stronger than post WCI base Sanji. Ussop has no business defeating him.

If anything, the only BS is that Ulti and Page One didn't one shot Nami and Ussop.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

This is all fine.
The ones apart from monster trio and Jinbe (and MAYBE Franky) honestly has no business even dealing with Tobiroppo, let alone defeat them.

It would be BS for Nami to suddenly solo Ulti, someone who can somewhat hold her own against Luffy.
Same for Page One, who was stronger than post WCI base Sanji. Ussop has no business defeating him.

If anything, the only BS is that Ulti and Page One didn't one shot Nami and Ussop.

Stronger than sanji is a stretch , sanji again was just testing out the suit
He still has double leg DJ and hells memories

 

[Pirate Queen]

Stronger than sanji is a stretch , sanji again was just testing out the suit
He still has double leg DJ and hells memories

Bro like what he wasn't even testing out the suits capabilities fully. He used it as a disguise.

Huge stretch

 

[Nie Li]

Stronger than sanji is a stretch , sanji again was just testing out the suit
He still has double leg DJ and hells memories

He said "post WCI base Sanji", so without the suit.

Sanji himself attributed being able to tank Page One's claws to the suit's durability, and even with the suit he was unable to finish the job. It could have been because of time constraints, but the fact is that Sanji didn't finish Page One despite wanting to (he said he was going to take him out before the final battle, and P1 was perfectly fine on Onigashima).

That puts P1 around the same level as Raid Suit Sanji (yes, Sanji could have beaten him and could be stronger, but if we go strictly by facts, there's no proof). And that means P1 was stronger than base Sanji back then.

Sanji without the suit would still destroy Usopp and Nami in a matter of seconds, which is why Page One should have done the same. Same for Ulti. Specially Usopp, who lacks Nami's mirage tricks or lightning.

 

[grey matter]

Stronger than sanji is a stretch , sanji again was just testing out the suit
He still has double leg DJ and hells memories

I think, this is the case in beginning of Wano:
RS Sanji > Page One > base Sanji

You can disagree, but I'm not really interested in the specifics at this point.

Point anyway was that Page One was at least in the same tier, and that is more than enough for him to one shot Nami or Ussop effortlessly.

 

[Fox666]

Sanji used the Raid Suit against Page One to disguise his identity, not because he needed more power

Neither he was superior to Page One with the Raid Suit, the result of that fight was undecided

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Sanji used the Raid Suit against Page One to disguise his identity, not because he needed more power

Neither he was superior to Page One with the Raid Suit, the result of that fight was undecided

The fight is undecided because a few good hits from post WCI RS Sanji wasn't enough to defeat P1.

The question to you is do you think either Usopp or Nami could take these hits and not be KOed?

• Spoiler: Sanji kicks P1 Dinosaur form in the head

  
• Spoiler: Sanji kicks P1 Dinosaur form in the chest

  
• Spoiler: Sanji kicks P1 Hybrid arm in order to defend himself

  
• Spoiler: Sanji hits P1 from above with a kick (we don't see where he hits him)

  

In all of these the impact is pretty large and the town there gets pretty wrecked. I don't know about you but I have a hard time believing that Usopp or Nami would be able to survive these kicks if they made direct contact with their bodies. Especially since you can see that haki was used in some of these with the black lighting coming from the point of impact.

 

[Fox666]

The fight is undecided because a few good hits from post WCI RS Sanji wasn't enough to defeat P1.

The question to you is do you think either Usopp or Nami could take these hits and not be KOed?

• Spoiler: Sanji kicks P1 Dinosaur form in the head

  
• Spoiler: Sanji kicks P1 Dinosaur form in the chest

  
• Spoiler: Sanji kicks P1 Hybrid arm in order to defend himself

  
• Spoiler: Sanji hits P1 from above with a kick (we don't see where he hits him)

  

In all of these the impact is pretty large and the town there gets pretty wrecked. I don't know about you but I have a hard time believing that Usopp or Nami would be able to survive these kicks if they made direct contact with their bodies. Especially since you can see that haki was used in some of these with the black lighting coming from the point of impact.

Wouldn't Ulti headbutt be equivalent to these? Usopp and Nami survived a few, although it seems they would die if she continued

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Wouldn't Ulti headbutt be equivalent to these? Usopp and Nami survived a few, although it seems they would die if she continued

Yes I would say her head butts are similar impact. And if I recall Usopp took just one directly to the head and cracked his skull with another one risking his life. I don't believe Nami took a direct hit and instead kept on running. To me the fact that both of them would be at the risk of dying from a few of Ulti's head butts is the proof that Nami/Usopp have no business fighting a Tobiroppo.

 

[Fox666]

Yes I would say her head butts are similar impact. And if I recall Usopp took just one directly to the head and cracked his skull with another one risking his life. I don't believe Nami took a direct hit and instead kept on running. To me the fact that both of them would be at the risk of dying from a few of Ulti's head butts is the proof that Nami/Usopp have no business fighting a Tobiroppo.

Nami did took a headbutt from Ulti... she was bleeding on the head saying "if I take one of these again I will die"

 

[XXGenesis]

Don’t forget RS Sanji tanked Crushing Nose Dive/ SwanTon Bomb from King…..

Sanji would have beaten P1. The major criticism was that the fight wasn’t finished or off panel. Sanji needed that fight to boost his stock, yet oda didn’t give us that.

RS+Germa Sanji > Germa Sanji ≠ RS Sanji > Pre Germa Sanji > P1 ≠ Start of Wano Sanji