Hangout Hunter x Hunter Hangout Thread [02]

[shionoro]

I often feel like Nen is less well understood than mangy fans think.
There are a lot of concepts that are at play "behind the scenes" in HxH and only explained as time moves along.

Team Nen for example was a thing starting at GI (the bombers, greed island itself) but it was really low key and without raising a lot of attention.

We also thought Nentypes were a pretty clean cut thing, even tho specialists also had different rules and and we knew some people could transit to specialist later in life.

I think a lot of these things hit fans out of the blue because they think they know Nen better than the story really portrays.

Hisoka's rebirth raised a lot of flack from people back then because they thought togashi was "breaking nen", even tho Nen after death was a thing and nobody ever really said it cannot be consciously used. Now Camilla does it without problems to an even higher mastery than hisoka.

Nen has strict rules, but it is also a really vast concept with many special rules and details to it, and these details are not even understood by all characters in the HxH world (for example, kanjidol did not know manipulators cannot manipulate someone who is already manipulated).

So far, whenever the notion of Nen that most people had was questioned, it was not a contradiction to what came before, but rather the story moving to a different environment in which people do things with Nen that we didnt see before (or didnt understand to that grade of detail before).

 

[Demonspeed]

I'd say Hisoka's resurrection annoyed people mostly because of the Hisoka-Chrollo rivalry. It doesn't really break Nen rules. Though yeah it was pretty crazy.

 

[shionoro]

Fromt he top of my head, the things that i sometimes see people getting upset about:

1) Hisoka's resurrection
2) Alluka
3) Killua's godspeed being broken
4) Meruem and the chimera ants balancing
5) Tserriednich ultra talent.
6) Kurapika's ability and balancing
7) Overuse of Nen after death.
8) People learning Nen too quickly in newer chapters.

To me, all of them have really good explanations if you think about it.

 

[Demonspeed]

Nen after death is seen more commonly recently but I wouldn't say it's being overused. And IMO Godspeed is overrated.

The two things which really bothered me in the series are the Dragon Dive moment during the Palace Invasion and also the way Killua's "cowardice" was solved.

 

[Terahawk]

For me it was the Hisoka vs. Chrollo match. Not the after-death nen part, the fight itself.

It bothered me, only because it felt like there were several moments where Hisoka was able to counter the skills Chrollo had elected to use. Particularly with the use of Texture Surprise. Hisoka could have made himself appear like any random spectator while searching for Chrollo's location, throwing the other spectators off his trail/confusing them long enough to buy time. He could also have used texture surprise to give the spectators his features, revealing how strong or weak the black voice commands were in terms of being used as a honing method. Chrollo's spectator mob could have been made to turn on itself, attacking the wrong targets, and after Chrollo ran out of spectators- what then? If Hisoka had really wanted to agitate Chrollo, he could've taken Chrollo's stolen appearance- depending on how weak the honing lock for the command was, it might have sent the spectators against both 'Chrollos" (LOL.)

Even if Hisoka hadn't employed those uses, because the given commands were so simple, and had to be by nature for the range in which Black Voice was supposed to be working, Hisoka could have beaten it (and potentially ruined most of Chrollo's strategy in any number of ways) if he'd taken 2 seconds to create conditions for which simple commands are not sufficient- a thing he is perfectly suited to doing. Complicating things and creating distractions to confuse opponents is one of Hisoka's greatest strengths as a fighter- that mental capacity almost completely vanished from him, during this fight. I was not expecting the magician to be out to lunch. Even if Hisoka hadn't known what the specific BV command was, he's definitely intelligent enough to deduce the skill categories and drawbacks, then work forward from that.

I was also temporarily annoyed by Hisoka's bungee gum getting snapped without his input, until I remembered the same thing had happened to Machi when she tied one of her nen threads to Uvogin.

I know a lot of the setup for the succession arc started during the Hisoka vs Chrollo fight, and that to an extent Togashi couldn't drag the fight out for longer than 10 chapters, so he probably didn't write that fight the way he would have if that weren't an issue. I do wish that Hisoka had seemed a little more like himself during the match. That's all.

On the plus side, the boat ride has taken some really interesting twists and turns. We have a bunch of new characters to theorize about, and we might get to the real Dark Continent faster with Togashi writing at a different pace than attempting weekly serialization. Pariston vs. Ging is currently one of my most anticipated matchups, to say nothing of what Beyond has planned for the Zodiacs. I'm 50/50 on whether Kurapika's story line will go past the boat, or whether it will end with it. It may be that the Kurta clan had ancient connections to the DC, but Togashi is definitely finishing up at least part of his story line with the spiders right now. The succession contest and GB mechanics are interesting, but reading like a warm-up to the DC.

There is a lot to look forward to, so I'm not going to dwell on this one minor part of a truly amazing story.

 

[Kanmuru]

Nen after death is seen more commonly recently but I wouldn't say it's being overused. And IMO Godspeed is overrated.

The two things which really bothered me in the series are the Dragon Dive moment during the Palace Invasion and also the way Killua's "cowardice" was solved.

I'm intrigued now, what bothered you about dragon dive?

I do wish that Hisoka had seemed a little more like himself during the match. That's all.

More like himself?
Remember that hisoka got 2 arms cut off by a guy that was using his nen all wrong. He also wanted to fight Netero LMAO
The guy is one of the best fighters in the series but he can be really dumb as well. I don't feel like he did anything out of character vs chrollo he always fights with bungee, hand to hand and hardly anything else.

 

[Demonspeed]

Hisoka not using Texture Surprise surprised me but I didn't find him OOC.

I'm intrigued now, what bothered you about dragon dive?

Killua knowing about it. It was stated as if it was something obvious too. He only learned about Nen when he went to the Heavens Arena with Gon so he couldn't have seen it before.

I can think of theories which would explain how Killua learned about it post-HA but the way it was stated right during the invasion wasn't good.

 

[Ebrietas-]

For me it was the Hisoka vs. Chrollo match. Not the after-death nen part, the fight itself.

It bothered me, only because it felt like there were several moments where Hisoka was able to counter the skills Chrollo had elected to use. Particularly with the use of Texture Surprise. Hisoka could have made himself appear like any random spectator while searching for Chrollo's location, throwing the other spectators off his trail/confusing them long enough to buy time. He could also have used texture surprise to give the spectators his features, revealing how strong or weak the black voice commands were in terms of being used as a honing method. Chrollo's spectator mob could have been made to turn on itself, attacking the wrong targets, and after Chrollo ran out of spectators- what then? If Hisoka had really wanted to agitate Chrollo, he could've taken Chrollo's stolen appearance- depending on how weak the honing lock for the command was, it might have sent the spectators against both 'Chrollos" (LOL.)

Even if Hisoka hadn't employed those uses, because the given commands were so simple, and had to be by nature for the range in which Black Voice was supposed to be working, Hisoka could have beaten it (and potentially ruined most of Chrollo's strategy in any number of ways) if he'd taken 2 seconds to create conditions for which simple commands are not sufficient- a thing he is perfectly suited to doing. Complicating things and creating distractions to confuse opponents is one of Hisoka's greatest strengths as a fighter- that mental capacity almost completely vanished from him, during this fight. I was not expecting the magician to be out to lunch. Even if Hisoka hadn't known what the specific BV command was, he's definitely intelligent enough to deduce the skill categories and drawbacks, then work forward from that.

I was also temporarily annoyed by Hisoka's bungee gum getting snapped without his input, until I remembered the same thing had happened to Machi when she tied one of her nen threads to Uvogin.

I know a lot of the setup for the succession arc started during the Hisoka vs Chrollo fight, and that to an extent Togashi couldn't drag the fight out for longer than 10 chapters, so he probably didn't write that fight the way he would have if that weren't an issue. I do wish that Hisoka had seemed a little more like himself during the match. That's all.

On the plus side, the boat ride has taken some really interesting twists and turns. We have a bunch of new characters to theorize about, and we might get to the real Dark Continent faster with Togashi writing at a different pace than attempting weekly serialization. Pariston vs. Ging is currently one of my most anticipated matchups, to say nothing of what Beyond has planned for the Zodiacs. I'm 50/50 on whether Kurapika's story line will go past the boat, or whether it will end with it. It may be that the Kurta clan had ancient connections to the DC, but Togashi is definitely finishing up at least part of his story line with the spiders right now. The succession contest and GB mechanics are interesting, but reading like a warm-up to the DC.

There is a lot to look forward to, so I'm not going to dwell on this one minor part of a truly amazing story.

No offense but you sound like you just didn't like him losing. He didn't have his usual magician swag because he was the one being played this time.

Hisoka lost because he couldn't realize in time that sun and moons inability to disappear meant any conjured object marked with it also can never dissappear so Chrollo could use 4+ abilities at the same time. By the time Hisoka realized this Chrollo already had an army of exploding puppets and also a black voice clone of himself for Hisoka to chase around at the same time. At that point no texture surprise trickery could save him.

Also the simple commands were given by Order Stamp not Black Voice. You need a reread.

 

[Aeneas]

The only narrative choice in the series I don't like is Nanika as a plot device to completely heal Gon (with the only lasting issue being the Nen reset).

 

[Kanmuru]

Killua knowing about it. It was stated as if it was something obvious too. He only learned about Nen when he went to the Heavens Arena with Gon so he couldn't have seen it before.

I can think of theories which would explain how Killua learned about it post-HA but the way it was stated right during the invasion wasn't good.

Oh, it's the killua "plot hole" i thought it was about the dragon dive itself. Yeah, that was kinda sketchy by togashi. I mean, it would've been cool if killua saw the technique and felt like it was zeno's. I feel like you can do that since nen is so personal, but he even knew the name of the technique xD

__________

Idk if this means something :c

 

[Terahawk]

I'm intrigued now, what bothered you about dragon dive?



More like himself?
Remember that hisoka got 2 arms cut off by a guy that was using his nen all wrong. He also wanted to fight Netero LMAO
The guy is one of the best fighters in the series but he can be really dumb as well. I don't feel like he did anything out of character vs chrollo he always fights with bungee, hand to hand and hardly anything else.

Yes, but consider his match with Kastro. He determined the nature of the ability Kastro was using, as well as the mechanics, without causing significant risk to himself. To us, losing an arm would be a death blow or serious mutilation. To Hisoka... it's just a flesh wound, as long as he's got the cash on hand and someone like Machi around who can fix it. It is part of why he's willing to take those risks. Risking death was an overconfidence thing, something Hisoka admitted after the match was done. Fair ball.

Hisoka's experience alone should've allowed him to find the weak point in Chrollo's strategy, which to my mind was unquestionably the simple commands needed for Black Voice to work. But almost none of that occurred in this fight.

Either way, I'm not going to dwell on it because I can accept that (a) I probably still don't know all of what went on in that fight, and (b) Togashi needed a lot of setup during that match for the Succession Arc to move the way it did, which kinda blocked normal fight progression in a way.

 

[Demonspeed]

Yes, but consider his match with Kastro. He determined the nature of the ability Kastro was using, as well as the mechanics, without causing significant risk to himself. To us, losing an arm would be a death blow or serious mutilation. To Hisoka... it's just a flesh wound, as long as he's got the cash on hand and someone like Machi around who can fix it. It is part of why he's willing to take those risks. Risking death was an overconfidence thing, something Hisoka admitted after the match was done. Fair ball.

Hisoka's experience alone should've allowed him to find the weak point in Chrollo's strategy, which to my mind was unquestionably the simple commands needed for Black Voice to work. But almost none of that occurred in this fight.

Either way, I'm not going to dwell on it because I can accept that (a) I probably still don't know all of what went on in that fight, and (b) Togashi needed a lot of setup during that match for the Succession Arc to move the way it did, which kinda blocked normal fight progression in a way.

I don't know about that. Chrollo isn't like Kastro, he is much better, smarter and his ability is more versatile. Chrollo also prepared everything specifically to counter Hisoka. The place, the abilities etc.

 

[Kanmuru]

Yes, but consider his match with Kastro. He determined the nature of the ability Kastro was using, as well as the mechanics, without causing significant risk to himself. To us, losing an arm would be a death blow or serious mutilation. To Hisoka... it's just a flesh wound, as long as he's got the cash on hand and someone like Machi around who can fix it. It is part of why he's willing to take those risks. Risking death was an overconfidence thing, something Hisoka admitted after the match was done. Fair ball.

Hisoka's experience alone should've allowed him to find the weak point in Chrollo's strategy, which to my mind was unquestionably the simple commands needed for Black Voice to work. But almost none of that occurred in this fight.

Either way, I'm not going to dwell on it because I can accept that (a) I probably still don't know all of what went on in that fight, and (b) Togashi needed a lot of setup during that match for the Succession Arc to move the way it did, which kinda blocked normal fight progression in a way.

I don't think the progress of the fight got butchered because of the DC setup, he took a lot of chapters to represent the fight.
Yeah, if you start thinking you can find some flaws in the match, Togashi is only human so there must be some holes there.
But the whole point was to show regardless of how insanely talented you are, you can't fight against someone like Chrollo that prepared a whole strategy and considered every single scenario.

 

[Ebrietas-]

Togashi needed a lot of setup during that match for the Succession Arc to move the way it did, which kinda blocked normal fight progression in a way.

So what is "normal fight progression" for you?? Hisoka figures out everything and kills everything??

This guys fanbase is something else. Just because he figured out Kastro's crappy nen ability doesn't mean he will see through every strategy made.

 

[ShijimaTheSilentMan]

Oh, it's the killua "plot hole" i thought it was about the dragon dive itself. Yeah, that was kinda sketchy by togashi. I mean, it would've been cool if killua saw the technique and felt like it was zeno's. I feel like you can do that since nen is so personal, but he even knew the name of the technique xD

__________

Idk if this means something :c

They're letting us dream.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2023, Original Post Date: Jan 4, 2023 ---

Fromt he top of my head, the things that i sometimes see people getting upset about:

1) Hisoka's resurrection
2) Alluka
3) Killua's godspeed being broken
4) Meruem and the chimera ants balancing
5) Tserriednich ultra talent.
6) Kurapika's ability and balancing
7) Overuse of Nen after death.
8) People learning Nen too quickly in newer chapters.

To me, all of them have really good explanations if you think about it.

4 and 6 how so?

 

[YipYip]

For me it was the Hisoka vs. Chrollo match. Not the after-death nen part, the fight itself.

It bothered me, only because it felt like there were several moments where Hisoka was able to counter the skills Chrollo had elected to use. Particularly with the use of Texture Surprise. Hisoka could have made himself appear like any random spectator while searching for Chrollo's location, throwing the other spectators off his trail/confusing them long enough to buy time. He could also have used texture surprise to give the spectators his features, revealing how strong or weak the black voice commands were in terms of being used as a honing method. Chrollo's spectator mob could have been made to turn on itself, attacking the wrong targets, and after Chrollo ran out of spectators- what then? If Hisoka had really wanted to agitate Chrollo, he could've taken Chrollo's stolen appearance- depending on how weak the honing lock for the command was, it might have sent the spectators against both 'Chrollos" (LOL.)

Even if Hisoka hadn't employed those uses, because the given commands were so simple, and had to be by nature for the range in which Black Voice was supposed to be working, Hisoka could have beaten it (and potentially ruined most of Chrollo's strategy in any number of ways) if he'd taken 2 seconds to create conditions for which simple commands are not sufficient- a thing he is perfectly suited to doing. Complicating things and creating distractions to confuse opponents is one of Hisoka's greatest strengths as a fighter- that mental capacity almost completely vanished from him, during this fight. I was not expecting the magician to be out to lunch. Even if Hisoka hadn't known what the specific BV command was, he's definitely intelligent enough to deduce the skill categories and drawbacks, then work forward from that.

I was also temporarily annoyed by Hisoka's bungee gum getting snapped without his input, until I remembered the same thing had happened to Machi when she tied one of her nen threads to Uvogin.

I know a lot of the setup for the succession arc started during the Hisoka vs Chrollo fight, and that to an extent Togashi couldn't drag the fight out for longer than 10 chapters, so he probably didn't write that fight the way he would have if that weren't an issue. I do wish that Hisoka had seemed a little more like himself during the match. That's all.

On the plus side, the boat ride has taken some really interesting twists and turns. We have a bunch of new characters to theorize about, and we might get to the real Dark Continent faster with Togashi writing at a different pace than attempting weekly serialization. Pariston vs. Ging is currently one of my most anticipated matchups, to say nothing of what Beyond has planned for the Zodiacs. I'm 50/50 on whether Kurapika's story line will go past the boat, or whether it will end with it. It may be that the Kurta clan had ancient connections to the DC, but Togashi is definitely finishing up at least part of his story line with the spiders right now. The succession contest and GB mechanics are interesting, but reading like a warm-up to the DC.

There is a lot to look forward to, so I'm not going to dwell on this one minor part of a truly amazing story.

The fight against Castro was in fact incredibly close as they mentioned afterwards.
If Castro went with his best choices to do, Hisoka would have not seen any land in that match, even if he had gone with best choices.
But against Castro is the only fight we have seen Hisoka not using a savety gum. Going by the protagonists gyo analasys later on, we can assume he did really not use one.
But after that he always set one up. Which was Gotoh if I recall correct. If it weren't for that, he would have not been able to escape the coins.

And then the fight against Chrollo: If I remember correct before his ressurection Hisoka needed some kind of cloth to use texture surprise on.
So you are saying, he should have wrapped his head in cloth making him blind, just to avoid some puppets which at the first stage of the fight seemed to be no real big thread.
In my oppinion Hisoka went pretty standard for the first half of the fight: Leting himself get cornerd and then let sheer luck or his savety gum give him the upper hand.



About the dragon dive plot hole: I think, it is possible that at the Zoldyck dinner table grandpa Zoldyck talked about one of his missions and that he was forced to use his dragon dive ability. Then Killua asked what that is and they gave him a describtion, maybe they even drew a picture for him

 

[Demonspeed]

About the dragon dive plot hole: I think, it is possible that at the Zoldyck dinner table grandpa Zoldyck talked about one of his missions and that he was forced to use his dragon dive ability. Then Killua asked what that is and they gave him a describtion, maybe they even drew a picture for him

How does it work? Killua didn't know Nen. Describing it to him or drawing it would be telling him that it exists.

I wouldn't say it's a plot hole. More of an asspull. We know that Tsubone was aware of Killua's Kanmuru during the Election arc but it wasn't explained how. My guess is that they check on each others at certain dates and Killua told them about his abilities (he knew Illumi's too) but we haven't really seen that so Killua suddenly saying "It's grandpa's Dragon Dive" was strange. He also got his yo-yos from Milluki but it doesn't need to be related to that.

 

[YipYip]

How does it work? Killua didn't know Nen. Describing it to him or drawing it would be telling him that it exists.

I wouldn't say it's a plot hole. More of an asspull. We know that Tsubone was aware of Killua's Kanmuru during the Election arc but it wasn't explained how. My guess is that they check on each others at certain dates and Killua told them about his abilities (he knew Illumi's too) but we haven't really seen that so Killua suddenly saying "It's grandpa's Dragon Dive" was strange. He also got his yo-yos from Milluki but it doesn't need to be related to that.

As a child Kilua was able to create afterimages of himself by some kind of stepping pattern. My guess is he would have believed it, when they told him , they would explained it when he is older.
That after the chimera arc every zoldyck knew about each others ability, well my best guess would be Zeno saw Killua in the palace of the King and notices 1. Illumis needle is gone and 2. Killua can use Nen.
When Killua came home to fetch Alluka, his father was told by Zeno and the had the Talk. Possibly all Familie members have to reveal their abilities.
Just Bad, that this could have been indicated to have happened in one line, but like it is now... we can just speculate. OR we write a fan letter to Togshi with all things that dont make sense to us

Currently I am rereading, I dont know who wondered about Machis nen threads snapping.
Frontpage of charter 78 states, that her threads if not longer than one meter can hold a ton. If she makes it durable like a cotton thread, she could wrap it around the world one time. ( I think real life world, as we dont know if hunterxhunter world is flat or round)
When the thread is detached from her body it gets weaker.
I would assume that also hisokas gum could not streach forever and will tear.

 

[Aeneas]

I would assume that also hisokas gum could not streach forever and will tear.

I assume you reached it already since you were at 78, but:

And change "millimeters" to "meters". Mistake on Viz's part.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2023, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2023 ---

How does it work? Killua didn't know Nen. Describing it to him or drawing it would be telling him that it exists.

I wouldn't say it's a plot hole. More of an asspull. We know that Tsubone was aware of Killua's Kanmuru during the Election arc but it wasn't explained how. My guess is that they check on each others at certain dates and Killua told them about his abilities (he knew Illumi's too) but we haven't really seen that so Killua suddenly saying "It's grandpa's Dragon Dive" was strange. He also got his yo-yos from Milluki but it doesn't need to be related to that.

We must have different definitions of asspull. : P

It's just a small inconsistency if anything.

As for describing it: they could've just used the phrase "Dragon Dive" and added that Zeno can cause dragons to rain down (Killua would've just been like, "huh?"). That doesn't give anything away about the existence of Nen.

And not that it matters much, but thanks for the inconsistent punctuation, Viz. : p

 

[Demonspeed]

I assume you reached it already since you were at 78, but:




And change "millimeters" to "meters". Mistake on Viz's part.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2023, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2023 ---

We must have different definitions of asspull. : P

It's just a small inconsistency if anything.

As for describing it: they could've just used the phrase "Dragon Dive" and added that Zeno can cause dragons to rain down (Killua would've just been like, "huh?"). That doesn't give anything away about the existence of Nen.

And not that it matters much, but thanks for the inconsistent punctuation, Viz. : p

Regardless of what it is the way it was executed really bothered me. If it had at least been during a less important moment I don't think I would have minded.

As a child Kilua was able to create afterimages of himself by some kind of stepping pattern. My guess is he would have believed it, when they told him , they would explained it when he is older.
That after the chimera arc every zoldyck knew about each others ability, well my best guess would be Zeno saw Killua in the palace of the King and notices 1. Illumis needle is gone and 2. Killua can use Nen.
When Killua came home to fetch Alluka, his father was told by Zeno and the had the Talk. Possibly all Familie members have to reveal their abilities.
Just Bad, that this could have been indicated to have happened in one line, but like it is now... we can just speculate. OR we write a fan letter to Togshi with all things that dont make sense to us

Currently I am rereading, I dont know who wondered about Machis nen threads snapping.
Frontpage of charter 78 states, that her threads if not longer than one meter can hold a ton. If she makes it durable like a cotton thread, she could wrap it around the world one time. ( I think real life world, as we dont know if hunterxhunter world is flat or round)
When the thread is detached from her body it gets weaker.
I would assume that also hisokas gum could not streach forever and will tear.

I find this way too complicated. Killua definitely discussed with his family which explains why he and Illumi knew each other's abilities but since Killua was affected by Illumi's needle another possibility is that he had seen Zeno's abilities before but had forgotten because of the needle. That technique should count as Soliciting-type and we know it can affect memories.


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