One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

Mine for beginning of 2023 is here, let me know what you think

So I think Oda doesn’t show enough characters at their limits enough, or throws in so many caveats into his fights. When you try to rank or list the characters you start to find major contradictions.
So until the End of Series or just in general I always thought Tiers/Titles worked best.

There are Tiers/Titles I don’t think really exist or are necessary….Ex.YC1+ & PK Tier.

Prime Roger/WB/Garp are Narratively Equivalent. The differences in battle prowess is marginal..The PK title isn’t really a tier.

YC1+ Imo is simply Low Top Tier. For me its either you are above YC1 & can fight above that level..Or your not….So Kidd/Law/Zoro/Oden/Sabo/Ben Beckman(?) ..They can hurt and go a distance with the top tiers

I like your list. There’s thing I disagree but understand such as Doflamingo/Kyoshiro/Ben Beckman..etc

 

[Pirate Queen]

So I think Oda doesn’t show enough characters at their limits enough, or throws in so many caveats into his fights. When you try to rank or list the characters you start to find major contradictions.
So until the End of Series or just in general I always thought Tiers/Titles worked best.

There are Tiers/Titles I don’t think really exist or are necessary….Ex.YC1+ & PK Tier.

Prime Roger/WB/Garp are Narratively Equivalent. The differences in battle prowess is marginal..The PK title isn’t really a tier.

YC1+ Imo is simply Low Top Tier. For me its either you are above YC1 & can fight above that level..Or your not….So Kidd/Law/Zoro/Oden/Sabo/Ben Beckman(?) ..They can hurt and go a distance with the top tiers

I like your list. There’s thing I disagree but understand such as Doflamingo/Kyoshiro/Ben Beckman..etc

Well the marineford war was also title the " War of the Strongest" and literally no one went all out besides whitebeard and akaiu. It was a pathetic display

 

[Nie Li]

Well the marineford war was also title the " War of the Strongest" and literally no one went all out besides whitebeard and akaiu. It was a pathetic display

That's harsh.

Personally I loved how chill most of the characters were there. Doflamingo just flying around and going "fufufu" like a drunk madman at a party. Mihawk not straining himself and just throwing casual flying slashes all around, Kizaru going all "My, my, scary, and then continuing to do whatever he wants" a moment later because he's just like that...

Whitebeard's commanders did seem to go all out, and of course Whitebeard and Akainu did even if we weren't explicitly shown any haki back then other than normal CoC, but I loved every character who took it easy even more.

 

[Pirate Queen]

That's harsh.

Personally I loved how chill most of the characters were there. Doflamingo just flying around and going "fufufu" like a drunk madman at a party. Mihawk not straining himself and just throwing casual flying slashes all around, Kizaru going all "My, my, scary, and then continuing to do whatever he wants" a moment later because he's just like that...

Whitebeard's commanders did seem to go all out, and of course Whitebeard and Akainu did even if we weren't explicitly shown any haki back then other than normal CoC, but I loved every character who took it easy even more.

I'm not saying it wasn't a great arc, but calling it the war of the strongest and then not having them perform "the strongest" was very lame. The fight were great but I mean come on. If katakuri was in the war he wouldn't have should half of what he did in the Luffy vs Katakuri fight.

 

[Fox666]

Bounties IMO give some idea of proportion but only within same crews. Across crews there's hardly anything to make sense of. Does that difference apply to pre time skip supernova? This is more or less how I see the powerscaling here.

Post ennies lobby luffY
- Would lose to moria solo (we saw that moria's shadow was basically a match for luffy)
- would lose to a pacifista. It's not even close. Not immediately of course but the one at sambaody ate a diable jambe, azura and gear 3 punch before falling.
- Get foderized by any vice admiral at marineford.

- Pre time skip moria IMO has a solid chance against a lone pacifista. Just not against an army of them.
- Marineford's vice admirals foderize the original pacifista
- Some new world people that would defeat first gen pacifista with ease, if not foderize them: Obviously post time skip zoro and sanji from when the strawhats reunited. Bellamy from dressrosa. Pretty much most of doflamigo's executives. Kinemon, kanjuro.
- Pedro, pekoms, tamago can definitely foderize pacifista in an instant.

With that context:
-Doflamingo foderized full powered post time skip sanji
- Doflamingo had a huge edge over dressrosa law. Doflamingo had a pretty big edge over gear 2/3 dressrosa luffy. Dressrosa gear 4 luffy barely had an edge on doflamingo. Maybe not even that considering all the shenanigans that were required to take out doflamingo.
- Doflamingo loses to anyone of the original yonko's YC3. As in, vista, cracker, jack. With varying degrees of difficulty but the YC in question always walks.
- WB's commanders seem to be ahead of the curve considering we saw marco and jozu repelled admirals and vista held his ground against mihawk.
- Azura appeared to be at least an interesting fight to jack. The implication would appear to be that denjiro and kawamatsu along with azura stood out among the scabbards and maybe were in the ballpark. Which suggests at least 3 scabbards being on the ballpark of doflamingo.
- Perospero I have at about a tie with doflamingo.
- Oven and daifuku are probably just somewhat weaker than doflamingo. Though not people doflamingo can dismiss.
- Pedro defeated tamago but didn't last against perospero.

- Immediately post dressrosa luffy has nothing over cracker. Maybe it's a skillset thing to some extent but ultimately it's not an opponent luffy could solo at that point.
- Immediate post dressrosa luffy is nothing to katakuri. At this point it was sheer convenience that luffy overcame a pretty huge breach in overall strength.
- Luffy at the time his fight with katakuri ended probably has somewhat of an edge over katakuri. Since luffy accumulated a crapton of damage through the fight but still came out on top somehow.

- Pre udon luffy in any circumstance gets one shot by base kaido. Kaido did that in spite of the fact that luffy at that point was at least as strong as katakuri, an honest to god YC1 (even if probably the weakest of the known ones at the time).

- It's extremely likely that kaido in his base form can one shot katakuri and non defense mode king by bonking them with sheer speed. The idea of katakuri's future sight holding out against kaido who also has the skill is beyond laughable. Big mom can probably match this if she has at least one homey at hand. Kaido did bonk G4 with his primary weapon after all. I would maintain that the big mom that confronted jinbe was far too out of her mind and perhaps already weakened from her hunger to actually show her full power.

- The surviving scabbards didn't last against aramaki and this while denjiro and kawamatsu were fighting. Yamato gave aramaki some pause at least.


So the power scaling would sort of look like....

Kaido >>>>aramaki>>>>marco>>>>>>>>>pre udon luffy>katakuri>>>>>>>jack>azura>cracker >>>>>doflamingo> G4 dressrosa luffy>perospero>>>>>oven-daifuku>>>>>>>>>>pedro>tamago>dressrosa sanji>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bellamy>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thriller bark gecho moria>> first gen pacifista>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre time skip luffy.

So... the arrows roughly reference the strength difference as I see it. It's not an exact number mind you. If there's only one I see them as being about the same. If there's a a lot of them I think the difference is enough to one shot or at least win comfortably.

Too long

Let's try converting bounties to Douriki...


Luffy's bounty don't accurately represent his strength. Usually it's higher than someone of his level would get, but some time it gets split with his allies.

Using bounties as powerlevels, I think Luffy is something like this:

- East Blue: 25,000,000
- Arabasta: 80,000,000
- Ennies Lobby (Gear 2): 250,000,000
- Dressrosa (Gear 4): 800,000,000
- Whole Cake Island (Gear 4): 1,200,000,000
- Wano (Gear 5): 4,000,000,000

For reference, a pirate with the strength of a Pacifista would get a bounty of 320,000,000.

I think the reality can't be far from this.


Luffy's Douriki with Gear 2 would be a bit higher than 4,000 in Ennies Lobby, so let's say it's 5,000. This give a nice conversion of 1:50,000 for bounties.

The result is:

- East Blue: 500
- Arabasta: 1,600
- Ennies Lobby: 5,000
- Dressrosa: 16,000
- Whole Cake Island: 24,000
- Wano: 80,000

Oda said in an SBS that the CP9 members are guaranteed a victory over Kuro, so it's interesting that the weakest member would still have a Douriki level above the East Blue level. I think this give some weight to these numbers.


Of course the real answer is to not take powerlevels in One Piece too seriously.

 

[kkck]

Too long

Let's try converting bounties to Douriki...


Luffy's bounty don't accurately represent his strength. Usually it's higher than someone of his level would get, but some time it gets split with his allies.

Using bounties as powerlevels, I think Luffy is something like this:

- East Blue: 25,000,000
- Arabasta: 80,000,000
- Ennies Lobby (Gear 2): 250,000,000
- Dressrosa (Gear 4): 800,000,000
- Whole Cake Island (Gear 4): 1,200,000,000
- Wano (Gear 5): 4,000,000,000

For reference, a pirate with the strength of a Pacifista would get a bounty of 320,000,000.

I think the reality can't be far from this.


Luffy's Douriki with Gear 2 would be a bit higher than 4,000 in Ennies Lobby, so let's say it's 5,000. This give a nice conversion of 1:50,000 for bounties.

The result is:

- East Blue: 500
- Arabasta: 1,600
- Ennies Lobby: 5,000
- Dressrosa: 16,000
- Whole Cake Island: 24,000
- Wano: 80,000

Oda said in an SBS that the CP9 members are guaranteed a victory over Kuro, so it's interesting that the weakest member would still have a Douriki level above the East Blue level. I think this give some weight to these numbers.


Of course the real answer is to not take powerlevels in One Piece too seriously.

The reality is quite far from that. Oven and daifuku were experienced pirates and among big mom's stronger executives and their bounty was 300 mil. And each would easy one shot a pacifista. Bounties are not consistent across different crews.

 

[Fox666]

The reality is quite far from that. Oven and daifuku were experienced pirates and among big mom's stronger executives and their bounty was 300 mil. And each would easy one shot a pacifista. Bounties are not consistent across different crews.

Individually, bounties are not accurate

But when you have dozens of examples, I think they do provide a good idea of the proportion

If the average Supernova has a bounty of 200 million, and the average Yonko is 4 billion, the later group is about 20 times stronger

The point being, Kaido's Douriki is probably around 100,000 and not 100 trillion.....

 

[XXGenesis]

@Fox666

Aside from real word math calculations;
Assigning a multiplier or saying some is X amount times stronger is Crazy asf.
How in the world do you find the equation for that?!

 

[Fox666]

@Fox666

Aside from real word math calculations;
Assigning a multiplier or saying some is X amount times stronger is Crazy asf.
How in the world do you find the equation for that?!

I'm just playing with the information provided in the manga


What does it means to say that Rob Lucci has a Douriki of 5 times Fukurou?

What does it means when Brannew said that the sum of Kaido and Big Mom bounties surpasses any individual bounty?


If logic was applied, when Kaido sends a shockwave flying across the ocean or split the skies, he would be millions of times stronger than Rob Lucci (I'm sure someone already did the math on the Internet)

But in-universe, apparently that's a difference of 20 times or so

 

[kkck]

Individually, bounties are not accurate

But when you have dozens of examples, I think they do provide a good idea of the proportion

If the average Supernova has a bounty of 200 million, and the average Yonko is 4 billion, the later group is about 20 times stronger

The point being, Kaido's Douriki is probably around 100,000 and not 100 trillion.....

I don't see any way to look at bounties even globally and reach such a conclusion. There's plenty of people with high ish bounties who aren't that big a deal and people with lowerer bounties who are definitely more of a threat. Big mom's pirates had relatively low bounties. Supernova were given in paradise bounties that seem absurd in hindsight. Just the fact that a worthless rookie like luffy was given a bounty number that is shared with actual yonko executives should be telling here.

Another instance which highlights how big power differences can be in the story: Hody jones. The entirety of the plot of the fishman island arc hinged on the energy steroid. The energy steroid was said to specifically double the physical strength of the user. And each subsequent pill doubled that. And so on. Granted that it's unclear how this would affect douriki but presumably this would double it as douriki was definited as a measure of physical strength and the pill doubles physical strength. But if you start out with 10 doriki and eat 16 pills with 655360 douriki. On top of that hody jones probably had a lot more than 10 douriki at least AND he ate pills by the fistful.

 

[Fox666]

I don't see any way to look at bounties even globally and reach such a conclusion. There's plenty of people with high ish bounties who aren't that big a deal and people with lowerer bounties who are definitely more of a threat. Big mom's pirates had relatively low bounties. Supernova were given in paradise bounties that seem absurd in hindsight. Just the fact that a worthless rookie like luffy was given a bounty number that is shared with actual yonko executives should be telling here.

Yes, but that's only because the WG is failing at measuring their abilities properly.

Luffy wrecked Ennies Lobby, which was one of the WG main bases. He was overestimated. By comparison, Oven probably took a back seat at Big Mom's ships, so he was underrated.

Another instance which highlights how big power differences can be in the story: Hody jones. The entirety of the plot of the fishman island arc hinged on the energy steroid. The energy steroid was said to specifically double the physical strength of the user. And each subsequent pill doubled that. And so on. Granted that it's unclear how this would affect douriki but presumably this would double it as douriki was definited as a measure of physical strength and the pill doubles physical strength. But if you start out with 10 doriki and eat 16 pills with 655360 douriki. On top of that hody jones probably had a lot more than 10 douriki at least AND he ate pills by the fistful.

It's hard to measure the effects of Energy Steroids on Hody Jones.

The effects are only temporary. Hody Jones took 4 pills on chapter 611, but according to one of his crewmates he was not drugged and only using his natural strength on chapter 617. Later on Hody Jones was taking one after another specifically to heal the injury caused by Zoro.

That said, doubling your power with each pill does seem absurd. Considering how much trouble he gave Luffy, wouldn't one more pill guarantee victory, or at least force him on using Gear 4? I guess Oda didn't really took in account how far you can get with exponential growth.

 

[XXGenesis]

I'm just playing with the information provided in the manga


What does it means to say that Rob Lucci has a Douriki of 5 times Fukurou?

What does it means when Brannew said that the sum of Kaido and Big Mom bounties surpasses any individual bounty?


If logic was applied, when Kaido sends a shockwave flying across the ocean or split the skies, he would be a million times stronger than Rob Lucci (I'm sure someone already did the math in the Internet)

But in-universe, apparently that's a difference of 20 times or so

you’ve got a case with Lucci and Fukurou.
I think the X multiplayer started with Dragon Ball & SSG. I’m pretty sure it ended there also.

Because it’s too hard to give a visual portryal of someone being more than 2x stronger…When used in media , it’s a hyperbole of grandeur.

I feel you. After Double/Triple…the visual portryal of representation is highly subjective given there is no real scale of measurement.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2023, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2023 ---

I'm just playing with the information provided in the manga


What does it means to say that Rob Lucci has a Douriki of 5 times Fukurou?

What does it means when Brannew said that the sum of Kaido and Big Mom bounties surpasses any individual bounty?


If logic was applied, when Kaido sends a shockwave flying across the ocean or split the skies, he would be a million times stronger than Rob Lucci (I'm sure someone already did the math in the Internet)

But in-universe, apparently that's a difference of 20 times or so

you’ve got a case with Lucci and Fukurou.
I think the X multiplayer started with Dragon Ball & SSG. I’m pretty sure it ended there also.

Because it’s too hard to give a visual portryal of someone being more than 2x stronger…When used in media , it’s a hyperbole of grandeur.

I feel you. After Double/Triple…the visual portryal of representation is highly subjective given there is no real scale of measurement.

 

[Nie Li]

you’ve got a case with Lucci and Fukurou.
I think the X multiplayer started with Dragon Ball & SSG. I’m pretty sure it ended there also.

Because it’s too hard to give a visual portryal of someone being more than 2x stronger…When used in media , it’s a hyperbole of grandeur.

I feel you. After Double/Triple…the visual portryal of representation is highly subjective given there is no real scale of measurement.

I think it started a lot earlier with Kaioken but it's definitely Dragon Ball's fault. It will sadly never end among fans, like people trying to make mathematical measurements out of pixels on a page and complex theorems.

 

[kkck]

Yes, but that's only because the WG is failing at measuring their abilities properly.

Luffy wrecked Ennies Lobby, which was one of the WG main bases. He was overestimated. By comparison, Oven probably took a back seat at Big Mom's ships, so he was underrated.


It's hard to measure the effects of Energy Steroids on Hody Jones.

The effects are only temporary. Hody Jones took 4 pills on chapter 611, but according to one of his crewmates he was not drugged and only using his natural strength on chapter 617. Later on Hody Jones was taking one after another specifically to heal the injury caused by Zoro.

That said, doubling your power with each pill does seem absurd. Considering how much trouble he gave Luffy, wouldn't one more pill guarantee victory, or at least force him on using Gear 4? I guess Oda didn't really took in account how far you can get with exponential growth.

Sure, but then, how do you assume consistency then? Inconsistency seems more like the norm here. Take the calamities vs the sweet commanders. King had a bounty of 1390 mil, queen was at 1320 mil and jack at an even 1000 mil. The sweet commanders had katakuri at 1057000 or so, smoothie at 932 mil and cracker at 860 mil. As much as I dislike katakuri, it doesn't track that king's strength would be equivalent to 300 mil greater than katakuri. Or that katakuri would be in the ballpark of jack. Marco held his own against king and queen and his bounty is lower than king's iirc.

Yeah, oda didn't consider the actual math here at all. Or he did and even my impression of the power scale actually underestimates the situation.

I suppose a big question we need an answer to is how much stronger than someone do you need to be to instantly foderize said person in one hit. So human lucci was at 4000... would 5000 one shot him? or 6000?

 

[LadyVados]

VS Battles wikia rates Wano Luffy as 5 billion times as strong as Pre-TS Luffy.

Heck they even have Queen as a few thousand times as strong as Katakuri.

And Thriller Bark Robin as several times stronger than EL Lucci.

These are probably a bit too optimistic tbf.

 

[Crimson Ice]

VS Battles wikia rates Wano Luffy as 5 billion times as strong as Pre-TS Luffy.

Heck they even have Queen as a few thousand times as strong as Katakuri.

And Thriller Bark Robin as several times stronger than EL Lucci.

These are probably a bit too optimistic tbf.

Vs battle wiki is some hot ass, so I wouldn't take them as the example. Their profiles are good at look at feats from shows you don't know.

Spoiler: Rough top 30 No order, just tiers and alive characters

A lot of assumptions for some characters here:
Certain characters are placed based off predictions
S tier:
Dragon
Mihawk
Kaido
Shanks
Big Mam
Blackbeard
Luffy

S- Tier:
Kuzan
Greenbull
Akainu
Fujitora
Kizaru
Old Garp
Old Ray
Kong
Old Scooper
Beckman
Weevil

A+ Tier
Zoro (Wano)
Yamato
Marco
Law (Wano)
Kidd (Wano)

A Tier
Sabo (Dressrosa)
Shiryu
Crocodile
King
Katakuri
Boa
Sanji

HM: Lucci, you are #31

 

[Pirate Queen]

Vs battle wiki is some hot ass, so I wouldn't take them as the example. Their profiles are good at look at feats from shows you don't know.

Spoiler: Rough top 30 No order, just tiers and alive characters

A lot of assumptions for some characters here:
Certain characters are placed based off predictions
S tier:
Dragon
Mihawk
Kaido
Shanks
Big Mam
Blackbeard
Luffy

S- Tier:
Kuzan
Greenbull
Akainu
Fujitora
Kizaru
Old Garp
Old Ray
Kong
Old Scooper
Beckman
Weevil

A+ Tier
Zoro (Wano)
Yamato
Marco
Law (Wano)
Kidd (Wano)

A Tier
Sabo (Dressrosa)
Shiryu
Crocodile
King
Katakuri
Boa
Sanji

HM: Lucci, you are #31

Boa too low on your list, mah boi

 

[Crimson Ice]

Boa too low on your list, mah boi

Boa are with the Yonko right hands O_O. You could argue higher though I get it; this is me assuming her DF can be negged with haki. If not, she'd be with the admirals.

 

[Fox666]

I suppose a big question we need an answer to is how much stronger than someone do you need to be to instantly foderize said person in one hit. So human lucci was at 4000... would 5000 one shot him? or 6000?

Probably the plot dictates

Is one swing from Kaido's kanabo really going to do more damage than Katakuri hitting Luffy non-stop for 10 hours?

 

[kkck]

It's a good question whether BOA's petrification can be negated with haki. My guess would be that victims actually can't use haki to cancel the ability. The primary issue being that once petrified people are left unconscious.

I do wonder if perhaps some abilities can potentially exploit loopholes in hancock's ability. I am thinking of crocodile, pika... maybe sakasuki. As we know hancock has the ability turn people who are atracted to her into stone. Crocodile has the ability to turn into sand and also to turn things around him into sand. Pika has the ability to fuse with and control stone. Sakasuku is magma. So with crocodile and sakasuki I think there's a chance that boa's ability doesn't make them sufficiently different from their normal state of being. So maybe they can retain consciousness in their petrified forms and activate their abilities. Or simply use haki to cancel it. Pika is a bit different from the other two but he can still meld with stone. So maybe being stone is not particularly a hindrance to him.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2023, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2023 ---

Probably the plot dictates

Is one swing from Kaido's kanabo really going to do more damage than Katakuri hitting Luffy non-stop for 10 hours?

Possibly? The implication so far is that katakuri could actually hit kaido for ten hours and do basically no damage after all. With kaido we are talking about being hit by multiple layers of haki and blinding speed. We saw how far cladding took luffy when it came to matching kaido, the difference was explosive even at that tier. We saw base luffy suddenly matching kaido blow for blow to some extent immediately after making the point that before his attacks weren't that effective which I assume includes gear 4.