Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
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So I'm trying something new with this breakdown. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Personally trying to get away from the YC tiering system.
Roger
Whitebeard
Blackbeard
Kaido
Big Mom
Shanks/Mihawk
Luffy
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Fujitora
Green Bull
Garp
Sengoku
Oden
Ryuma
Tsuru~
Rayleigh~
Beckmann~
Individuals who have shown themselves to be or have been said to be comparable to the strongest of the strong on the seas. Your Yonkou, your Admirals, and your general Legends all populate this tier.
Folks who are basically a hop and a skip away from being at the Pinnacle, but still need a bit of growth/motivation. In the right circumstances, they can scrap with those in the tier above, but will not win a direct 1v1.
~Lucci
~Weevil
Sanji
Killer
Jinbe
Crocodile
Hancock
Kuma
Doflamingo
Jozu
Vista
Katakuri
King
Queen
Smoothie
Jack
Cracker
Uroge
X Drake~
Hawkins~
The most diverse tier, imo. This is where your Commanders, most Shichibukai (post Wano Patch), and various other notable or infamous pirates lie. Maybe some are already contenders, maybe some have the potential to be contenders, but for the most part, this is where most will max out due to various reasons. While there are certainly levels to this tier, I prefer leaving it a bit more open to shifts and changes rather than trying to force some of them into the whole YC1-YC4 when things are more likely on a shifting scale with some of them.
Your basic New World pirate. Similar to the Top Officers, this is rather diverse. You've got some who are decently strong and some who are pretty weak in the grand scheme. But, they can usually stand up to most of the others in their own tier, if not beat them comfortably in some cases.
Actually really like this simplified system. Makes the separation between the tiers very obvious making any debate more meaningful. The Yonko commander tier system should be more of a sub-tier than anything but I personally think it causes too much unnecessary debate.
Yeah, Oda often slips her in as a "legend" along with them every once and a while. I feel like she may be in a similar case with Garp where she is likely stronger than her current rank, especially given her unique title and her recent missions. The Vivre Card databook from a while back also implies as much. Not exactly sure, but I'll just go with Oda's hype for now.
Actually really like this simplified system. Makes the separation between the tiers very obvious making any debate more meaningful. The Yonko commander tier system should be more of a sub-tier than anything but I personally think it causes too much unnecessary debate.
That unnecessary debate is why I got turned off from it as a ranking system. As I mentioned, the introduction of sub-sub categories got pretty ridiculous.
So I'm trying something new with this breakdown. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Personally trying to get away from the YC tiering system.
Roger
Whitebeard
Blackbeard
Kaido
Big Mom
Shanks/Mihawk
Luffy
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Fujitora
Green Bull
Garp
Sengoku
Oden
Ryuma
Tsuru~
Rayleigh~
Beckmann~
Individuals who have shown themselves to be or have been said to be comparable to the strongest of the strong on the seas. Your Yonkou, your Admirals, and your general Legends all populate this tier.
Folks who are basically a hop and a skip away from being at the Pinnacle, but still need a bit of growth/motivation. In the right circumstances, they can scrap with those in the tier above, but will not win a direct 1v1.
~Lucci
~Weevil
Sanji
Killer
Jinbe
Crocodile
Hancock
Kuma
Doflamingo
Jozu
Vista
Katakuri
King
Queen
Smoothie
Jack
Cracker
Uroge
X Drake~
Hawkins~
The most diverse tier, imo. This is where your Commanders, most Shichibukai (post Wano Patch), and various other notable or infamous pirates lie. Maybe some are already contenders, maybe some have the potential to be contenders, but for the most part, this is where most will max out due to various reasons. While there are certainly levels to this tier, I prefer leaving it a bit more open to shifts and changes rather than trying to force some of them into the whole YC1-YC4 when things are more likely on a shifting scale with some of them.
Your basic New World pirate. Similar to the Top Officers, this is rather diverse. You've got some who are decently strong and some who are pretty weak in the grand scheme. But, they can usually stand up to most of the others in their own tier, if not beat them comfortably in some cases.
The only difference between our tiers is that my B tier (your Contender tier) has the top officers of my S tier (your Pinnacle tier) captains. Otherwise I just made it a bit more granular instead of just a distinction-free list. This isn't really all that different from Emperors > Admirals > YC1+ > YC1 > YC2/3/4 > lesser Officers. You did the same thing, just labeled differently.
Zoro can counter it to an extend but he is just not there yet. Law can nullify most of his attacks on the other hand simply by transporting. Law’s DF wins for now at least, imo. He has already shown his effectiveness against two close-range weapon users: Vergo and Smoker.
Haki also didn’t save BM from getting mauled.
Zoro can counter it to an extend but he is just not there yet. Law can nullify most of his attacks on the other hand simply by transporting. Law’s DF wins for now at least, imo. He has already shown his effectiveness against two close-range weapon users: Vergo and Smoker.
Haki also didn’t save BM from getting mauled.
Honestly I think Luffy has pretty much peaked at this point (with G5 and all Haki variants). The gap between Luffy and Zoro is only going to decrease now.
Yeah, Oda often slips her in as a "legend" along with them every once and a while. I feel like she may be in a similar case with Garp where she is likely stronger than her current rank, especially given her unique title and her recent missions. The Vivre Card databook from a while back also implies as much. Not exactly sure, but I'll just go with Oda's hype for now.
It's true, don't forget that someone of the caliber of Doflamingo always fled in front of her. He seem more afraid of fighting Tsuru than Kuzan !!!... That tell long of her reputation and power.
It's true, don't forget that someone of the caliber of Doflamingo always fled in front of her. He seem more afraid of fighting Tsuru than Kuzan !!!... That tell long of her reputation and power.
I think part of it is also Tsuru's personality. She seems very no nonsense type that will pursue a target very aggressively and without compromise. In a weird way I think of the old generation of Marines that we have - Garp, Sengoku, Tsuru as the predecessors of the OG Admirals - Aokiji, Kizaru, Akainu. And to me Tsuru is the Akainu of her era so not only is she a strong fighter but of the people you don't want to face because of how merciless they can be she would be the one.
It's true, don't forget that someone of the caliber of Doflamingo always fled in front of her. He seem more afraid of fighting Tsuru than Kuzan !!!... That tell long of her reputation and power.
I think part of it is also Tsuru's personality. She seems very no nonsense type that will pursue a target very aggressively and without compromise. In a weird way I think of the old generation of Marines that we have - Garp, Sengoku, Tsuru as the predecessors of the OG Admirals - Aokiji, Kizaru, Akainu. And to me Tsuru is the Akainu of her era so not only is she a strong fighter but of the people you don't want to face because of how merciless they can be she would be the one.
Not only that, but she's one of the few (presumed) top-tiers with a DF ability that is (presumably) not only an instant win condition but literally affects the alignment of its victims by 'washing away the evil in their hearts'. I have to imagine the more evil someone is, the more they want to stay as far away from Tsuru as humanly possible. Kuzan could definitely kill Doffy if he wanted to, but he can't make him less evil, which is a fate worse than death for that guy.
True during the Law Flashback, but we know that Tsuru was keeping him as a prey until he was a Shichibukai, at the age of 31.
10 years before he met Kuzan, he should be a bit weaker but around his current level at that moment.
I think she's a beast in term of power !!! Beside Kaido, Dofli feared nothing not even admiral !!!
Kuzan : went against his order, and say lightly, "I don't feel much fighting you".
Fujitora : He tried a sneak attack, he was ready to fight him to death head on.
Do people who believe that Enies Lobby Doriki scene is still valid as evidence of the relative power levels think Zoro and Sanji are much stronger than Kidd and Law since Kidd and Law are nowhere near 2200 to Luffy’s 4000 ? Probably more like 1000.
Do people who believe that Enies Lobby Doriki scene is still valid as evidence of the relative power levels think Zoro and Sanji are much stronger than Kidd and Law since Kidd and Law are nowhere near 2200 to Luffy’s 4000 ? Probably more like 1000.
The Doriki wasn't even that meaningful back then other than "They're similar but Kaku is stronger" portrayal.
We were told that douriki was simply "base physical stats" and it didn't account not only not for their DF transformations, but also not for their rokushiki skills, swordsmanship skills (in Kaku's case), technique, intelligence, whatever.
So it was never meant to be accurate, just an overall portrayal.
Now it's been 15 years and King and Queen certainly didn't have the portrayal of "almost equals" those two had.
I’ve noticed BDALaw & KOL have made a new 2023 top 30….I’m not totally against a Top 30 list…I just know 15 isn’t enough lol. And I personally prefer a listing of Ranks/Titles…Here’s why and I’m curious on other fans opinions also.
One Piece Power scailing imo when we start to talk about Yonkou/Admiral or 1st Mates…I personally believe there isn’t enough evidence from the manga for different reason to say differentiate who’s superior to who…Majority of the top 30 characters especially the last 15, I believe Matchups & ability play a big part.
I’ve noticed BDALaw & KOL have made a new 2023 top 30….I’m not totally against a Top 30 list…I just know 15 isn’t enough lol. And I personally prefer a listing of Ranks/Titles…Here’s why and I’m curious on other fans opinions also.
One Piece Power scailing imo when we start to talk about Yonkou/Admiral or 1st Mates…I personally believe there isn’t enough evidence from the manga for different reason to say differentiate who’s superior to who…Majority of the top 30 characters especially the last 15, I believe Matchups & ability play a big part.
I'll post my strongest list here as well, since it's beginning of the year. Let me know what you guys think.
Read some of the explanations at the bottom as well, might address some common disagreements.
A major change since I lasted posted here would be that I no longer consider admirals and Yonkos separate tiers, my current view is that they belong to same tier even if Yonkos on "average" are stronger than admirals. Even tho the yonkos have been hyped too much by Oda (cause pirate manga duh), the narrative supports admirals being a force capable of fighting them to a standstill evenly.
I just consider all of them "top tier" now, and would distinguish between the relatively small differences there through sub groups within that tier. But that doesn't imply a huge difference, the highest in that tier (say Roger) would need at least a mid diff to defeat the lowest in that tier (say Fujitora).
I also ignore matchups and consider "overall" power level (meaning some characters below another may defeat them due to matchup issues).
Anyway, here goes my list, with characters on/above yonko commander level....................
God tier:
Imu (??)
Rocks
Roger/prime Whitebeard
Garp
old Whitebeard (in meds)
Kaido
Mihawk
Shanks/prime Rayleigh
prime Sengoku (??)
Akainu
Dragon (??)
Blackbeard
Luffy
Oden
Aokiji
Kizaru
Big Mom
Gorosei (??)
Shiliew (??)
Ben Beckman (??)
Scopper (??)
Kong (??)
old Garp
old Rayleigh
old Sengoku
Greenbull
Fujitora
old Whitebeard (off meds, i.e in Marineford)
Edward Weevil (??)
Sabo
Law
Zoro
Marco
Yamato
Prime Moria (??)
Magellan
Kid
King
Katakuri
Lucky Roo (??)
Doflamingo
Boa Hancock
Sanji
Ace
Vista
Crocodile (??)
?? = Expectation/Headcanon/Prediction
What this means is that everyone with ?? in brackets in the list is based on my prediction regarding what narrative makes sense given their portrayal. Some explanations:
- Imu being God tier, should be self explanatory given his hype. He's probably strongest in the verse over last 800 years
- Dragon. He's probably the strongest character alive given his hype and bloodline. His father was PK tier and his son will be strongest EoS, so narratively he should be up there somewhere
- Gorosei: based on expectation that they were the strongest CD from 800 years ago who overthrew the ancient kingdom, has several battle scars. One of them likely carries 1st Kitetsu blade, and everyone with a supreme grade blade so far were at least Yonko level (Roger/WB/Mihawk).
- Shiliew: He was Magellan's equal (who was portrayed an unstoppable monster in ID having all prisoners combined run from him) and above yami BB without a DF. He now has a DF and my expectation is that he has awakened it to some broken level
- Ben Beckman: hyped as one of the special RHM close to his captain. Sun/Moon portrayal. Hyped as being comparable to Shanks in databooks.
- Scopper: expectation of being 3rd strongest Roger Pirate
- Kong: based on headcanon/expectation based on him being former Fleet Admiral and being still active
- Edward Weevil: Portrayal of being comparable to "young Whitebeard" must mean something. Plus none of the WBP so far were able to stop him.
- Prime Moria: based on implication of him giving Kaido a decent fight
- Lucky Roo/Yassop: Shanks crew is hyped for it's crew's individual strength. So the 2nd and 3rd strongest commanders should be a level
- Crocodile: expectation of post retcon Crocodile
- Enel: dude's DF is that broken. Plus country level observation haki, range etc. Can honestly make a case for him being higher
Explanation for some positions I think might cause most disagreements.
1. Akainu being so far above Marineford Whitebeard (i.e WB off meds)
Yes, MF Whitebeard extreme diff'd Akainu in round 2. But that was after he saw Ace die by Akainu's hand, so my opinion is that what we saw then was momentarily Whitebeard getting PoF/adrenaline-rush becoming his healthy old self (i.e when he's in meds) that was called WSM/WSP.
We saw earlier what happens when WB vs Akainu happened, Akainu outlasted Whitebeard and won that round without even really getting injured.
2. Big gap between old WB (in meds) and old Garp/Rayleigh/Sengoku
This is because old age only nerfs physical stats and stamina. Whitebeard has a paramecia DF which is unaffected by old age. Garp and Rayleigh are pure stats with no DF, Sengoku is a zoan which relies on physical stats.
Again, I acknowledge I might be wrong, we will have to wait and see how Garp would fare now that he might get to fight against BB
3. Doflamingo's position
This is due to the recent Shichibukai wank/retcon from Oda + some realizations I had regarding Doffy vs Luffy.
Doffy had the portrayal of being 2nd strongest amongst OG 7 Shichbukai. Plus, what Luffy fought was a very nerfed version of Doffy and even then Doffy (awakened) vs G4 Luffy was an even match until the finisher. This is something many (including myself in the past) miss or don't account for, G4 Luffy vs Doffy round 2 lasted for like 20-30 minutes, with the colosseum announcer guy claiming it to be an even fight.
To see how much gamam knife nerfed Doffy, you can see his reactions to G2 Luffy. Doffy easily dodged everything from G2 Luffy pre nerfed, got hit by G2 Luffy frequently post nerf.
4. Ace's position
His position is based on scaling up from his fight against Jinbe. Plus using info from the Ace novel as well.
Ace being introduced before haki was properly developed, has lead to him being downplayed by the community in general IMO.
Sidenote: Thatch's position is because he was stronger than Ace, and by extension Jinbe, in the beginning of Ace's stay in WB's ship.
My old list from early last year, showing how my rankings/perspective have changed over the year:
The Doriki wasn't even that meaningful back then other than "They're similar but Kaku is stronger" portrayal.
We were told that douriki was simply "base physical stats" and it didn't account not only not for their DF transformations, but also not for their rokushiki skills, swordsmanship skills (in Kaku's case), technique, intelligence, whatever.
So it was never meant to be accurate, just an overall portrayal.
Now it's been 15 years and King and Queen certainly didn't have the portrayal of "almost equals" those two had.
Doriki to me served a more important purpose as a way of measuring growth in an individual compared to their past selves. The fact that Lucci managed to double his Doriki after years of being under cover and likely not seeing any serious combat was important insight in how Oda views power levels. It's also in the same arc that Oda showed growth in power level for the SHs without any formal training just needed the right motivation.
As annoying as it is to see jumps in power level for characters, Enies Lobby's introduction to formal power levels has made it much easier to understand that characters will have growth spurts without any formal training. It is an inherent part of OP logic.
Douriki is a concept that only works within the context of ennies lobby. Going forward the power scaling skyrockets. Douriki was framed as someone's physical prowess but it fails to account for devil fruits and most definitely does not account for haki. Kaido could have 100000 or 1000000 douriki for all we know and even then we'd have no idea of how haki factors in.
One bit I do think is worth noting is that the fights suggest a greater difference between lucci and kaku/jyabura than between lucci and zoro/sanji.
Luffy vs lucci (4000 douriki)
Base luffy managed to hold his own against base lucci. And G2/3 luffy fought to the end with hybrid lucci.
Zoro vs kaku
Zoro initially fought human kaku (2200). And then zoro proceeded to fight transformed kaku. And zoro still held his own against transformed kaku in spite of kaku's presumably improved physical capacity. Zoro ultimately won with some level of comfort by using azura.
Sanji vs jyabura
Sanji managed to hold his own against a transformed jyabura (base 2180 or so) and iirc could even land damage through tekkai. With diable jambe sanji overpowered jyabura with some comfort.
Douriki is a concept that only works within the context of ennies lobby. Going forward the power scaling skyrockets. Douriki was framed as someone's physical prowess but it fails to account for devil fruits and most definitely does not account for haki. Kaido could have 100000 or 1000000 douriki for all we know and even then we'd have no idea of how haki factors in.
Hmmm I think the bounties do give an idea of proportions... if the Yonko bounties are around 20 times higher than the Supernovas, they probably have like 20 times more Douriki, not 200 times.
Hmmm I think the bounties do give an idea of proportions... if the Yonko bounties are around 20 times higher than the Supernovas, they probably have like 20 times more Douriki, not 200 times.
Bounties IMO give some idea of proportion but only within same crews. Across crews there's hardly anything to make sense of. Does that difference apply to pre time skip supernova? This is more or less how I see the powerscaling here.
Post ennies lobby luffY
- Would lose to moria solo (we saw that moria's shadow was basically a match for luffy)
- would lose to a pacifista. It's not even close. Not immediately of course but the one at sambaody ate a diable jambe, azura and gear 3 punch before falling.
- Get foderized by any vice admiral at marineford.
- Pre time skip moria IMO has a solid chance against a lone pacifista. Just not against an army of them.
- Marineford's vice admirals foderize the original pacifista
- Some new world people that would defeat first gen pacifista with ease, if not foderize them: Obviously post time skip zoro and sanji from when the strawhats reunited. Bellamy from dressrosa. Pretty much most of doflamigo's executives. Kinemon, kanjuro.
- Pedro, pekoms, tamago can definitely foderize pacifista in an instant.
With that context:
-Doflamingo foderized full powered post time skip sanji
- Doflamingo had a huge edge over dressrosa law. Doflamingo had a pretty big edge over gear 2/3 dressrosa luffy. Dressrosa gear 4 luffy barely had an edge on doflamingo. Maybe not even that considering all the shenanigans that were required to take out doflamingo.
- Doflamingo loses to anyone of the original yonko's YC3. As in, vista, cracker, jack. With varying degrees of difficulty but the YC in question always walks.
- WB's commanders seem to be ahead of the curve considering we saw marco and jozu repelled admirals and vista held his ground against mihawk.
- Azura appeared to be at least an interesting fight to jack. The implication would appear to be that denjiro and kawamatsu along with azura stood out among the scabbards and maybe were in the ballpark. Which suggests at least 3 scabbards being on the ballpark of doflamingo.
- Perospero I have at about a tie with doflamingo.
- Oven and daifuku are probably just somewhat weaker than doflamingo. Though not people doflamingo can dismiss.
- Pedro defeated tamago but didn't last against perospero.
- Immediately post dressrosa luffy has nothing over cracker. Maybe it's a skillset thing to some extent but ultimately it's not an opponent luffy could solo at that point.
- Immediate post dressrosa luffy is nothing to katakuri. At this point it was sheer convenience that luffy overcame a pretty huge breach in overall strength.
- Luffy at the time his fight with katakuri ended probably has somewhat of an edge over katakuri. Since luffy accumulated a crapton of damage through the fight but still came out on top somehow.
- Pre udon luffy in any circumstance gets one shot by base kaido. Kaido did that in spite of the fact that luffy at that point was at least as strong as katakuri, an honest to god YC1 (even if probably the weakest of the known ones at the time).
- It's extremely likely that kaido in his base form can one shot katakuri and non defense mode king by bonking them with sheer speed. The idea of katakuri's future sight holding out against kaido who also has the skill is beyond laughable. Big mom can probably match this if she has at least one homey at hand. Kaido did bonk G4 with his primary weapon after all. I would maintain that the big mom that confronted jinbe was far too out of her mind and perhaps already weakened from her hunger to actually show her full power.
- The surviving scabbards didn't last against aramaki and this while denjiro and kawamatsu were fighting. Yamato gave aramaki some pause at least.
So the power scaling would sort of look like....
Kaido >>>>aramaki>>>>marco>>>>>>>>>pre udon luffy>katakuri>>>>>>>jack>azura>cracker >>>>>doflamingo> G4 dressrosa luffy>perospero>>>>>oven-daifuku>>>>>>>>>>pedro>tamago>dressrosa sanji>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bellamy>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thriller bark gecho moria>> first gen pacifista>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre time skip luffy.
So... the arrows roughly reference the strength difference as I see it. It's not an exact number mind you. If there's only one I see them as being about the same. If there's a a lot of them I think the difference is enough to one shot or at least win comfortably.
